Ricciardo 2014 vs 2016 season

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ReservoirDog
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Ricciardo 2014 vs 2016 season

Post by ReservoirDog »

Ricciardo made his mark by convincingly beating a 4x champion in 2014, something most didn't expect of him. He was also the only non-Merc driver to win a race.

2016 - he hasn't won a race (let's not get into ifs), which of course is not all down to driver. He has, though, for the most part maximized the opportunities thrown his way - same way he did in 2014 (he never won on pure pace, but in more Alonso-ish fashion where he picked up the pieces and was always in the right place). This season though, unlike 2014 when he had no pressure at all, he was clearly ruffled by Verstappen. He took "his" win away at his first race at Barcelona, and suddenly the limelight was on Max instead of Danny boy. If you paid close attention to his interviews, it was clear that he was unnerved by the little whippersnapper and I still remember his radio call where he was delighted to have beat Verstappen in quali. He also made some stupid remarks to the media.

So while clearly having some mental issues, his performance on track was completely unaffected. To me it shows he's really mentally strong and to be honest, having Verstappen really made him bring out his A game at every race and quali if he had to remain relevant at RBR. He's also shown pressure doesn't affect his driving or force him into silly mistakes. He also has the amazing ability to pull out a brilliant lap out of nowhere in Q3. He clearly has performed well, risen to the occasion, and as we can see now, he's no more afraid of Verstappen stealing his thunder.

So, which season would you rank higher? Where he beat a 4x champ, or where he is simply beating an 18 y.o. convincingly?

Personally, for the reasons mentioned above, I think 2016 is actually a better season than 2014. He's strong, doesn't crack under pressure and is brilliant on track overall.

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red_alert
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Re: Ricciardo 2014 vs 2016 season

Post by red_alert »

I am not sure about your 'mental issues' comment, how his comments/behaviour are any different from any other driver on their given day, would mean we basically have group of patients from a mental asylum racing cars. Which is not the case.

I agree this 2016 season has been his best, he is still beating the same 4 x world champ and his well touted team mate. I think the wins would have been nice and not having them does not diminish his performance this year at all. But looking back at this season in the in the future the stats (0 wins vs team mates 1 win) will paint a different story, and only those of us who witnessed this season would know how good/better he performed.
Aussie :: Ricciardo

KingVoid
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Re: Ricciardo 2014 vs 2016 season

Post by KingVoid »

His racecraft seems to have evolved even further this year. He's stronger than he's ever been before.

Back in early 2015 I thought that his 2014 season might have been a one-off, like Frentzen in 1999; boy he has proved me wrong.

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Re: Ricciardo 2014 vs 2016 season

Post by kleefton »

When Verstappen was getting the better of him for a matter of a couple of races everyone thought he wasn't as good.

Now that he has Max in his back pocket he is once again one of the very best.

I've always believed in this guy's talent ever since he joined Redbull. He may be the most complete driver on the grid and he seems to be on it every time he is in the car. I can't say the same for even Alonso to be honest.

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Re: Ricciardo 2014 vs 2016 season

Post by Randine »

He has been arguably the driver of the year this year.
Max did have his measure at a few races, but Max also had a little bit of luck too. (mostly around whenever Rosberg got a penalty, it gained Max race positions!)

I think Ricciardo has super 1 lap pace, which shows now in qualifying.
However with next years tyres moving away from Swiss cheese, I think he will be able to push harder through the race than ever.
That does not bode well for Max, at least in 2017.

On Max, I have said before that he has been on the edge of reckless.
An example was Silverstone where on lap 6 when the race finally got started in the wet, he almost lost it going onto the straight, then was right on Rosberg's gearbox.
In contrast, Ricciardo sat back a little. I don't know exactly why but I thought at the time that Dan thought Max and Rosberg might come together so not to get too close.
Maybe he didn't keep his tyres up to temp under the safety car.
Then Ricciardo decided to pit, then the virtual safety car came out and put the leaders almost 10 seconds in front of Ricciardo which turned into 20 as he was stuck behind Perez until mid way through the race.
That race made Max look like a star, and he did drive very well that day.
Sometimes it really goes his way with some amazing overtakes where you least expect them.
That shows he really does have talent and something special.

Since Max has coped a lot of flak from some of his driving with Kimi, turning in under braking with Rosberg etc, he got pulled into see Charlie Whiting who said he was right on the edge.
He seems to be driving slightly less risky in the last few races, and as a result, he has not been as quick.

Now onto 2014.
Well start with 2013, Dan was confirmed as the Red Bull driver shortly after the test at Silverstone mid year when he was at Toro Rosso.
Apparently after climbing in the Red Bull he clocked a time 1 second quicker than Vettel did in similar track conditions and similar fuel load at the race weekend the week before.
If you remember Red Bull were looking at 2 drivers, Kimi as they didn't know if they had the next Vettel in Dan or JEV at Toro Rosso.
Kimi was ruled out after that test.
This also shows that at this level, these guys do not need time to adjust to new equipment. (as has been mentioned about Max all year "just wait till he gets used to the car etc")

On 2014. The car was not as good as the previous years. Seb had just had a baby. He had just won 4 championships with all the mind games that went on with Webber.
Just think about when you finished school or uni etc. You thought, hey I have worked hard, now I need a bit of a break.
So I think Seb may not have been at his best in 2014.

Having said that, I am sure for a bit of 2014 when Ricciardo got the better of him, he really tried to turn it around.
At times he over driver the car, made silly mistakes and generally looked beaten.
Dan in contrast had to prove that he was worthy of the promotion. To cement his position in the team.

The more the year went on, Seb would have had Ferrari in his mind and decided to try and pull the trigger a full year before his contract was due to end.
Red Bull actually let him walk out on his contract for 2015.

That shows how much faith Red Bull had in Ricciardo. If they thought that Dan wasn't up to it, or that Seb was sand bagging all year just to get out of his contract, they wouldn't have been so willing to let him walk.

Now what is the difference between 2014 and 2016 for Dan.
Raw speed is still there.
I think he is more mature now.
Makes less mistakes, and you rarely see him have a big off.
(Baku into the wall in practise, and also crashing into where Rosberg crashed in Singapore in the Toro Rosso aside!)
Some of his late braking in the past has been very questionable. In Monza he showed how mighty he is under braking now.
I would say his biggest improvement has been in his tyre management especially since Max came into the team.

He got 3rd in the championship in 2014, and looks on track to do that again in 2016.
If he gets a leading car 1 day, I think he will be almost unbeatable with any team mate.

He hasn't had as easy a path as Seb or Max has. (both got promoted to Red Bull when they were in an upswing in performance.)
Dan has seen Red Bull through a relatively tough time and I think he has come out of it a much more complete driver.
And he is going to be much more grateful if he does win a championship.
Dan the man!


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Re: Ricciardo 2014 vs 2016 season

Post by Jezza13 »

ReservoirDog wrote:Ricciardo made his mark by convincingly beating a 4x champion in 2014, something most didn't expect of him. He was also the only non-Merc driver to win a race.

2016 - he hasn't won a race (let's not get into ifs), which of course is not all down to driver. He has, though, for the most part maximized the opportunities thrown his way - same way he did in 2014 (he never won on pure pace, but in more Alonso-ish fashion where he picked up the pieces and was always in the right place). This season though, unlike 2014 when he had no pressure at all, he was clearly ruffled by Verstappen. He took "his" win away at his first race at Barcelona, and suddenly the limelight was on Max instead of Danny boy. If you paid close attention to his interviews, it was clear that he was unnerved by the little whippersnapper and I still remember his radio call where he was delighted to have beat Verstappen in quali. He also made some stupid remarks to the media.

So while clearly having some mental issues, his performance on track was completely unaffected. To me it shows he's really mentally strong and to be honest, having Verstappen really made him bring out his A game at every race and quali if he had to remain relevant at RBR. He's also shown pressure doesn't affect his driving or force him into silly mistakes. He also has the amazing ability to pull out a brilliant lap out of nowhere in Q3. He clearly has performed well, risen to the occasion, and as we can see now, he's no more afraid of Verstappen stealing his thunder.

So, which season would you rank higher? Where he beat a 4x champ, or where he is simply beating an 18 y.o. convincingly?

Personally, for the reasons mentioned above, I think 2016 is actually a better season than 2014. He's strong, doesn't crack under pressure and is brilliant on track overall.
I would say that this year is "Danny Boys" most complete season, even accounting for his "mental issues", and having "his" win taken away and "his stupid media remarks".

Jeez :uhoh: .

When Verstappen joined the team Ricciardo was kind of on a hiding to nothing. All the pressure was on him. If Verstappen beat him, which initially happened, every one started saying tht maybe Ric's not as good as everyone thought he might be and that Verstappen is the child prodigy he was thought to be. Now that it is looking like Ric has regained his composure and it's Max who is making the mistakes and having the stupid media remarks, the expected excuse from the fan club of "He's only beating an 18 yr old" is now being trotted out.

While he doesn't have a winners trophy to his name this year compared to his 3 wins in 2014, I would say this year is his most complete season yet taking into account the pressure he is under to perform and lead the team.
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Re: Ricciardo 2014 vs 2016 season

Post by froze »

I think he's currently the best driver. He clearly has pure pace and he makes less mistakes than Hamilton, Rosberg, Vettel, Raikkonen or Verstappen. He has no weakness. I think so too that he performs very similarly to Alonso in his prime, forcing a maximum result basically every time.
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Re: Ricciardo 2014 vs 2016 season

Post by iano »

Vettel did benefit from the tyres, which made the outcome look even better. But it was still an extremely impressive drive.

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Re: Ricciardo 2014 vs 2016 season

Post by stitch512 »

If he was in that Merc this year, I honestly think we would have seen a Schumacher level of dominance, I really believe he is driving that well at the moment.

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Re: Ricciardo 2014 vs 2016 season

Post by Zoue »

I remember reading an interview a couple of months ago, where Ricciardo said that he'd cottoned onto the fact that judicious complaining was productive in pushing the team to rectify issues, or words to that affect. I don't think it shows any mental issues; on the contrary, for me it shows that he's learning to understand the politics of F1 more and realising that being "nice" isn't always the best tactic. He's sterpping up to being a team leader, not just a fast driver.

As for which season is best, hmm. He's probably a better driver overall this year, but the way he handled the pressure of being the rookie against a x4 WDC is also impressive and woke a lot of people up to his talents. I'd go with 2014 for that reason.

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Re: Ricciardo 2014 vs 2016 season

Post by mikeyg123 »

Ricciardo is the real deal. His only problem is that his teenage team mate is nearly as good and is still on a massive up curve.

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Re: Ricciardo 2014 vs 2016 season

Post by Badgeronimous »

In current form, I feel Ricciardo is probably the best driver on the grid.

He is the real deal and will be a WDC if he gets the car to do it - doesn't always happen though - ask Alonso.

He is likeable as well, which makes me want to see him win one.

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mcdo
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Re: Ricciardo 2014 vs 2016 season

Post by mcdo »

Hard to say. The reason 2014 really wowed everyone is because nobody realistically saw it coming. His bounce back from a short mid-season wobble has been superb and he's competing at the top of his game. Any time I wonder just who has been driving the best this year I nearly always find myself leaning towards Dan

I'll still stick with 2014 because I remember Austria being the only race that he made a mistake that affected his result. All against a 4x WDC in the other car. But I agree with others that he's probably a more complete driver now
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Re: Ricciardo 2014 vs 2016 season

Post by Jezza13 »

mikeyg123 wrote:Ricciardo is the real deal. His only problem is that his teenage team mate is nearly as good and is still on a massive up curve.
Doesn't seem to be too much of a problem lately. It actually looks that, if anything, the massive up curve has plateaued slightly.
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Re: Ricciardo 2014 vs 2016 season

Post by mikeyg123 »

Jezza13 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:Ricciardo is the real deal. His only problem is that his teenage team mate is nearly as good and is still on a massive up curve.
Doesn't seem to be too much of a problem lately. It actually looks that, if anything, the massive up curve has plateaued slightly.
I think a sample of a few races is far to small to make that judgement! You can't expect a driver to improve every race. Drivers usually enter there prime at around 24 and Verstappen has a full 6 years to go before he gets there. If Ricciardo is the best driver in F1 at the moment that Verstappen's performance is frankly terrifying.

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Re: Ricciardo 2014 vs 2016 season

Post by Jezza13 »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Jezza13 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:Ricciardo is the real deal. His only problem is that his teenage team mate is nearly as good and is still on a massive up curve.
Doesn't seem to be too much of a problem lately. It actually looks that, if anything, the massive up curve has plateaued slightly.
I think a sample of a few races is far to small to make that judgement! You can't expect a driver to improve every race. Drivers usually enter there prime at around 24 and Verstappen has a full 6 years to go before he gets there. If Ricciardo is the best driver in F1 at the moment that Verstappen's performance is frankly terrifying.
Well what are you using to validate the statement that Verstappen is nearly as good as Ricciardo mikeyg?

Since they teamed up in Spain, Ricciardo has more than doubled the points gap between himself and Verstappen (23 points difference when they teamed up, 50 points as of now), and thats with Verstappen winning a race where Ricciardo finished fourth. Verstappen has had one retirement (self inflicted at Monaco) while Ricciardo has none. Ricciardo has consistantly shown superior quali and race pace as well as ability to get the car off the line. Ricciardo has been on the end of two dodgy team calls. I can't recall any major discussion regarding dodgy calls against Verstappen.

Just a question. At what point can we stop using Verstappens age as a reference point when discussing his ability / success?

20? 22? Or do we have to wait until he reaches the theoretical prime of 24 until we can leave his age out of any discussion?
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Re: Ricciardo 2014 vs 2016 season

Post by mikeyg123 »

Jezza13 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Jezza13 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:Ricciardo is the real deal. His only problem is that his teenage team mate is nearly as good and is still on a massive up curve.
Doesn't seem to be too much of a problem lately. It actually looks that, if anything, the massive up curve has plateaued slightly.
I think a sample of a few races is far to small to make that judgement! You can't expect a driver to improve every race. Drivers usually enter there prime at around 24 and Verstappen has a full 6 years to go before he gets there. If Ricciardo is the best driver in F1 at the moment that Verstappen's performance is frankly terrifying.
Well what are you using to validate the statement that Verstappen is nearly as good as Ricciardo mikeyg?

Since they teamed up in Spain, Ricciardo has more than doubled the points gap between himself and Verstappen (23 points difference when they teamed up, 50 points as of now), and thats with Verstappen winning a race where Ricciardo finished fourth. Verstappen has had one retirement (self inflicted at Monaco) while Ricciardo has none. Ricciardo has consistantly shown superior quali and race pace as well as ability to get the car off the line. Ricciardo has been on the end of two dodgy team calls. I can't recall any major discussion regarding dodgy calls against Verstappen.

Just a question. At what point can we stop using Verstappens age as a reference point when discussing his ability / success?

20? 22? Or do we have to wait until he reaches the theoretical prime of 24 until we can leave his age out of any discussion?
I think you answer the first question yourself over 11 races Verstappen has scored just 27 points less than Ricciardo. and average of just 2.5 points per race (basically one place). That is close and I don't really see how anyone can argue it is not.

As to your second question, I don't know but certainly not 18. He's still younger than any other man that's ever raced an F1 car.

Even ignoring the age and having a look at this being just his second season he's comparing well to his peers in their second seasons.

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Re: Ricciardo 2014 vs 2016 season

Post by mds »

Jezza13 wrote: Since they teamed up in Spain, Ricciardo has more than doubled the points gap between himself and Verstappen (23 points difference when they teamed up, 50 points as of now), and thats with Verstappen winning a race where Ricciardo finished fourth. Verstappen has had one retirement (self inflicted at Monaco) while Ricciardo has none. Ricciardo has consistantly shown superior quali and race pace as well as ability to get the car off the line. Ricciardo has been on the end of two dodgy team calls. I can't recall any major discussion regarding dodgy calls against Verstappen.
I think you're exaggerating a bit here. These past three races have not gone too well for Verstappen, mainly due to starting performances (I still don't think he did anything wrong in T1 in Spa, and the clutch in Singapore apparently was faulty to begin with). In just about all other races he has shown great race pace that could rival Ricciardo's, and he has been able to outqualify Ricciardo on merit a few times too. I'd say he is doing very well for a driver that young and inexperienced in single seater racing.

Is he as good as Ricciardo yet? No. Is there potential? I'd say yes. Is there a guarantee? No.
Just a question. At what point can we stop using Verstappens age as a reference point when discussing his ability / success?
When he has reached an age we could actually start to compare him with what other drivers were doing in F1 at that certain age? Doesn't that sound reasonable?
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Re: Ricciardo 2014 vs 2016 season

Post by Zoue »

Jezza13 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Jezza13 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:Ricciardo is the real deal. His only problem is that his teenage team mate is nearly as good and is still on a massive up curve.
Doesn't seem to be too much of a problem lately. It actually looks that, if anything, the massive up curve has plateaued slightly.
I think a sample of a few races is far to small to make that judgement! You can't expect a driver to improve every race. Drivers usually enter there prime at around 24 and Verstappen has a full 6 years to go before he gets there. If Ricciardo is the best driver in F1 at the moment that Verstappen's performance is frankly terrifying.
Well what are you using to validate the statement that Verstappen is nearly as good as Ricciardo mikeyg?

Since they teamed up in Spain, Ricciardo has more than doubled the points gap between himself and Verstappen (23 points difference when they teamed up, 50 points as of now), and thats with Verstappen winning a race where Ricciardo finished fourth. Verstappen has had one retirement (self inflicted at Monaco) while Ricciardo has none. Ricciardo has consistantly shown superior quali and race pace as well as ability to get the car off the line. Ricciardo has been on the end of two dodgy team calls. I can't recall any major discussion regarding dodgy calls against Verstappen.

Just a question. At what point can we stop using Verstappens age as a reference point when discussing his ability / success?

20? 22? Or do we have to wait until he reaches the theoretical prime of 24 until we can leave his age out of any discussion?
I think that's a little one-sided. Just three races ago the gap was down to 18 points. Just shows what a couple of bad races will do to the standings. I would agree that Ricciardo has been better overall, but the gap hasn't really been that big between the two of them.

As to the age question, I'd say his age is still pretty relevant in discussing his situation. I don't see why that should be a bone of contention?

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Re: Ricciardo 2014 vs 2016 season

Post by Jezza13 »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Jezza13 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Jezza13 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:Ricciardo is the real deal. His only problem is that his teenage team mate is nearly as good and is still on a massive up curve.
Doesn't seem to be too much of a problem lately. It actually looks that, if anything, the massive up curve has plateaued slightly.
I think a sample of a few races is far to small to make that judgement! You can't expect a driver to improve every race. Drivers usually enter there prime at around 24 and Verstappen has a full 6 years to go before he gets there. If Ricciardo is the best driver in F1 at the moment that Verstappen's performance is frankly terrifying.
Well what are you using to validate the statement that Verstappen is nearly as good as Ricciardo mikeyg?

Since they teamed up in Spain, Ricciardo has more than doubled the points gap between himself and Verstappen (23 points difference when they teamed up, 50 points as of now), and thats with Verstappen winning a race where Ricciardo finished fourth. Verstappen has had one retirement (self inflicted at Monaco) while Ricciardo has none. Ricciardo has consistantly shown superior quali and race pace as well as ability to get the car off the line. Ricciardo has been on the end of two dodgy team calls. I can't recall any major discussion regarding dodgy calls against Verstappen.

Just a question. At what point can we stop using Verstappens age as a reference point when discussing his ability / success?

20? 22? Or do we have to wait until he reaches the theoretical prime of 24 until we can leave his age out of any discussion?
I think you answer the first question yourself over 11 races Verstappen has scored just 27 points less than Ricciardo. and average of just 2.5 points per race (basically one place). That is close and I don't really see how anyone can argue it is not.

As to your second question, I don't know but certainly not 18. He's still younger than any other man that's ever raced an F1 car.

Even ignoring the age and having a look at this being just his second season he's comparing well to his peers in their second seasons.
No arguement on the last point and although I don't know how many of his peers have had the hardware and support he has had, there is an arguement to be made that he has only recieved what he has earned. I'm no Verstappen fan but I certainly aknowledge his skill. What I don't agree with is your opening statement the he is nearly as good as Ricciardo. Since Spain, Ricciardo has lifted his game and has risen to the challenge admirably.
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Re: Ricciardo 2014 vs 2016 season

Post by Jezza13 »

Zoue wrote:
Jezza13 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Jezza13 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:Ricciardo is the real deal. His only problem is that his teenage team mate is nearly as good and is still on a massive up curve.
Doesn't seem to be too much of a problem lately. It actually looks that, if anything, the massive up curve has plateaued slightly.
I think a sample of a few races is far to small to make that judgement! You can't expect a driver to improve every race. Drivers usually enter there prime at around 24 and Verstappen has a full 6 years to go before he gets there. If Ricciardo is the best driver in F1 at the moment that Verstappen's performance is frankly terrifying.
Well what are you using to validate the statement that Verstappen is nearly as good as Ricciardo mikeyg?

Since they teamed up in Spain, Ricciardo has more than doubled the points gap between himself and Verstappen (23 points difference when they teamed up, 50 points as of now), and thats with Verstappen winning a race where Ricciardo finished fourth. Verstappen has had one retirement (self inflicted at Monaco) while Ricciardo has none. Ricciardo has consistantly shown superior quali and race pace as well as ability to get the car off the line. Ricciardo has been on the end of two dodgy team calls. I can't recall any major discussion regarding dodgy calls against Verstappen.

Just a question. At what point can we stop using Verstappens age as a reference point when discussing his ability / success?

20? 22? Or do we have to wait until he reaches the theoretical prime of 24 until we can leave his age out of any discussion?
I think that's a little one-sided. Just three races ago the gap was down to 18 points. Just shows what a couple of bad races will do to the standings. I would agree that Ricciardo has been better overall, but the gap hasn't really been that big between the two of them.

As to the age question, I'd say his age is still pretty relevant in discussing his situation. I don't see why that should be a bone of contention?
Well it probably is one sided Zoue but, as good as the kid is, I think there is still a fair gap between him and Ricciardo. Not a huge one but I'm not convinced Verstappen is nearly as good as Ricciardo. Not yet. I didn't want to venture into this territory in defence of my arguement because i hate could've, would've, should've debates, but, as everyone is ganging up on me :lol: , if we include the dodgy calls in Spain and Monaco the gap could have been what, another 12 - 15 or so points? We are then maybe looking at a 60 - 65 odd point gap, and growing, as of now?

Ricciardo has to be given some credit here. The way he has responded to the challenge has been nothing short of spectacular yet reading through the OP it's just simply him beating an 18 yr old kid and thats why I asked when will verstappens age no longer be relevant? If Ricciardo's still beating him in 2 yrs then can we say he won on merit or will we be saying Verstappens only 20 so it really doesn't count although it will be his 4th yr in F1?
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Re: Ricciardo 2014 vs 2016 season

Post by mikeyg123 »

Jezza13 wrote: Well it probably is one sided Zoue but, as good as the kid is, I think there is still a fair gap between him and Ricciardo. Not a huge one but I'm not convinced Verstappen is nearly as good as Ricciardo. Not yet. I didn't want to venture into this territory in defence of my arguement because i hate could've, would've, should've debates, but, as everyone is ganging up on me :lol: , if we include the dodgy calls in Spain and Monaco the gap could have been what, another 12 - 15 or so points? We are then maybe looking at a 60 - 65 odd point gap, and growing, as of now?

Ricciardo has to be given some credit here. The way he has responded to the challenge has been nothing short of spectacular yet reading through the OP it's just simply him beating an 18 yr old kid and thats why I asked when will verstappens age no longer be relevant? If Ricciardo's still beating him in 2 yrs then can we say he won on merit or will we be saying Verstappens only 20 so it really doesn't count although it will be his 4th yr in F1?
Ricciardo is winning on merit anyway. The likelyhood that Verstappen will improve is irrelevant to that. It is a fact that Ricciardo is narrowly beating an 18 year old and any sensible person would expect Verstappen to improve.

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Re: Ricciardo 2014 vs 2016 season

Post by Zoue »

Jezza13 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Jezza13 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Jezza13 wrote: Doesn't seem to be too much of a problem lately. It actually looks that, if anything, the massive up curve has plateaued slightly.
I think a sample of a few races is far to small to make that judgement! You can't expect a driver to improve every race. Drivers usually enter there prime at around 24 and Verstappen has a full 6 years to go before he gets there. If Ricciardo is the best driver in F1 at the moment that Verstappen's performance is frankly terrifying.
Well what are you using to validate the statement that Verstappen is nearly as good as Ricciardo mikeyg?

Since they teamed up in Spain, Ricciardo has more than doubled the points gap between himself and Verstappen (23 points difference when they teamed up, 50 points as of now), and thats with Verstappen winning a race where Ricciardo finished fourth. Verstappen has had one retirement (self inflicted at Monaco) while Ricciardo has none. Ricciardo has consistantly shown superior quali and race pace as well as ability to get the car off the line. Ricciardo has been on the end of two dodgy team calls. I can't recall any major discussion regarding dodgy calls against Verstappen.

Just a question. At what point can we stop using Verstappens age as a reference point when discussing his ability / success?

20? 22? Or do we have to wait until he reaches the theoretical prime of 24 until we can leave his age out of any discussion?
I think that's a little one-sided. Just three races ago the gap was down to 18 points. Just shows what a couple of bad races will do to the standings. I would agree that Ricciardo has been better overall, but the gap hasn't really been that big between the two of them.

As to the age question, I'd say his age is still pretty relevant in discussing his situation. I don't see why that should be a bone of contention?
Well it probably is one sided Zoue but, as good as the kid is, I think there is still a fair gap between him and Ricciardo. Not a huge one but I'm not convinced Verstappen is nearly as good as Ricciardo. Not yet. I didn't want to venture into this territory in defence of my arguement because i hate could've, would've, should've debates, but, as everyone is ganging up on me :lol: , if we include the dodgy calls in Spain and Monaco the gap could have been what, another 12 - 15 or so points? We are then maybe looking at a 60 - 65 odd point gap, and growing, as of now?

Ricciardo has to be given some credit here. The way he has responded to the challenge has been nothing short of spectacular yet reading through the OP it's just simply him beating an 18 yr old kid and thats why I asked when will verstappens age no longer be relevant? If Ricciardo's still beating him in 2 yrs then can we say he won on merit or will we be saying Verstappens only 20 so it really doesn't count although it will be his 4th yr in F1?
I don't think you're reading that right? The OP has praised Ricciardo, but is just pointing out that Verstappen isn't too far behind and most probably isn't quite near his own best yet. I don't see that as downgrading Ricciardo in any way.

I'm not going to get into the coulda woulda shoulda debate but Max hasn't had everything his own way. You just have to look at the cards they've been dealt and generally Max hasn't been too far off Ric at all. He's even managed to out-qualify him on a couple of occasions and as Ric is an acknowledged qualifying specialist that's not to be sneered at. Generally speaking, they've been fairly close in qualifying - just a tenth or two in it most of the time. I could be wrong but I'm sure I read a week or two ago that they were actually the most closely matched team mates from a qualifying perspective of the entire grid. Given how good we know Ricciardo is, that's pretty impressive.

Ricciardo has been better, but not every time and he's not exactly wiping the floor with Max in the way he was with, say Kvyat. There have been one or two occasions where Max has been genuinely quicker, which says a lot. I know you don't like mentioning his age but it has to be a factor when it's so clearly unusual for someone so young to be driving an F1 car. It's logical to assume that someone who is still of school age would still be learning and won't be at full capability yet

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Re: Ricciardo 2014 vs 2016 season

Post by trento »

Maybe with another season, Vettel could have matched Ric's pace. I was hoping to see Vettel battle Ric again but it never took off.

I think in the end, it's not about coping with pressure. I'm sure all of them cope well. We can just say Ric is the faster guy.

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Re: Ricciardo 2014 vs 2016 season

Post by ReservoirDog »

trento wrote:Maybe with another season, Vettel could have matched Ric's pace. I was hoping to see Vettel battle Ric again but it never took off.

I think in the end, it's not about coping with pressure. I'm sure all of them cope well. We can just say Ric is the faster guy.
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Re: Ricciardo 2014 vs 2016 season

Post by lbennie »

Best driver on the grid at the moment.

Someone said it earlier in the thread & it is really true. He's very similar to alonso in his prime. No mistakes (the guy has had 1 retirement due to driver error in 7 years), always on it, great race craft, legendary 1 lap pace, great to work with, fantastic @ PR, great at looking after rubber, incredibly cerebral when it comes to being dynamic with strategy during a race.

He is the absolute complete package, if he doesn't get a car that can deliver more than one championship in the future it will be a travesty imo.

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Re: Ricciardo 2014 vs 2016 season

Post by GingerFurball »

He has been superb this season, it would be an absolute travesty if he doesn't win a race.

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Re: Ricciardo 2014 vs 2016 season

Post by lamo »

stitch512 wrote:If he was in that Merc this year, I honestly think we would have seen a Schumacher level of dominance, I really believe he is driving that well at the moment.
I very much doubt it, unless he had some magic way of acing every start in the Mercedes. Rosberg has made 4-5 terrible starts and Hamilton 5-6 in 14 races. Add to that if he had Hamiltons engines he would have lost 3 races immediately. The Mercedes that leads after turn 1 wins, that wouldn't change and in a car that is hard to get a good start in its a bit of a lottery to which of the two drivers wins. Nico was much better than Lewis in Singapore, but if Nico got a bad start - Lewis would have beat him.

Given Hamiltons hand this year, I don't think he could have won more than another 2-3 races if he drove absolutely perfectly (Baku, Singapore for sure)

I think Dan is up there in the top 3 drivers, he is a complete driver and he done to Vettel basically what Hamilton done to Alonso and shook up the driver market overnight.

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Re: Ricciardo 2014 vs 2016 season

Post by Zoue »

lamo wrote:
stitch512 wrote:If he was in that Merc this year, I honestly think we would have seen a Schumacher level of dominance, I really believe he is driving that well at the moment.
I very much doubt it, unless he had some magic way of acing every start in the Mercedes. Rosberg has made 4-5 terrible starts and Hamilton 5-6 in 14 races. Add to that if he had Hamiltons engines he would have lost 3 races immediately. The Mercedes that leads after turn 1 wins, that wouldn't change and in a car that is hard to get a good start in its a bit of a lottery to which of the two drivers wins. Nico was much better than Lewis in Singapore, but if Nico got a bad start - Lewis would have beat him.

Given Hamiltons hand this year, I don't think he could have won more than another 2-3 races if he drove absolutely perfectly (Baku, Singapore for sure)

I think Dan is up there in the top 3 drivers, he is a complete driver and he done to Vettel basically what Hamilton done to Alonso and shook up the driver market overnight.
Have to agree with the opening paragraph. Lewis is clearly better than Nico but is trailing him in the points for a number of reasons. There's no reason to believe that Ricciardo would have had a completely trouble-free year if he'd have sat in the Mercedes.

Dan's definitely strong, but I think there's a lot of hyperbole going around at the moment

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Re: Ricciardo 2014 vs 2016 season

Post by Exediron »

lamo wrote:I think Dan is up there in the top 3 drivers, he is a complete driver and he done to Vettel basically what Hamilton done to Alonso and shook up the driver market overnight.
Actually, in every objective and measurable way, he beat Vettel far more conclusively than Hamilton did Alonso. And yet the 'bad year' excuse seems to get trotted out for Vettel far more often than Alonso gets that courtesy...
Zoue wrote:Dan's definitely strong, but I think there's a lot of hyperbole going around at the moment
True enough; hyperbole is what F1 fandom is based upon, and Ricciardo is no more immune to it than anyone else. Objectively however, there is a very good argument that he may be driving at the highest level on the grid at the moment. Out of the other candidates, Lewis seems to be failing to assert himself convincingly against Rosberg lately, while Vettel has been outperformed by Raikkonen more recently than usual of late, and Alonso doesn't seem to have the edge over Button many expect of him.

While there are explanations and excuses for all of that, the fact is that there is nothing of the sort you can point to about Ricciardo to take him out of the running. He's qualifying well (hard to say if he's extracting 100%, but he is consistently outqualifying a not exactly slow teammate), starting well (unlike his teammate, and he's consistently started well ever since the new regulations came into force so it seems likely to be down to him personally) and not making any mistakes in the races to speak of.

At this moment in time, I think it's quite fair to say he is in fact driving the best of the grid when all areas are taken into account. Not a certainty, but not exactly hyperbole either.
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Re: Ricciardo 2014 vs 2016 season

Post by Lotus49 »

@Exediron

Nice post, agree with everything. :thumbup:


I think 2016 Dan is a more complete driver and I think he's been driver of the year thus far. I was really impressed when Max had a couple of races back to back where he seemed to get much better tyre wear and Dan talked about going to the factory and getting to to the bottom of why and what he can do to remedy it, and since then he's been exceptional.

And he was pretty great before those couple of races as well!.
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Re: Ricciardo 2014 vs 2016 season

Post by Remmirath »

I agree with those who have said that Ricciardo is almost certainly driving at a higher level this year than in 2014, therefore to some extent it ought to be more impressive; however, 2014 is still the more impressive season to me. That's probably because it was more surprising that he managed to beat Vettel at all, and thoroughly at that, whereas I honestly expected him to be beating Verstappen so I find it less impressive (and really, a four time world champion is almost certainly more difficult to beat than somebody in their second season, even if they are quick).

As far as Ricciardo having been rattled by Verstappen goes, it looked to me more that he was rattled by one otherwise-certain win and one very likely win getting away from him (in Spain both he and Vettel ended up on the wrong strategy, so he may well have thought that win should've been his, and Monaco is obvious) rather than by Verstappen. Obviously he had more work cut out for him to prove that he was going to be able to beat Verstappen, because it was already known about Kvyat, but -- unless I'm missing something -- the issues Ricciardo was having came mostly after Monaco, and the only things I remember him saying were about being disappointed due to team blunders keeping the win from him, so that points to... well, that, rather than being rattled by his new teammate.

Also, with regards to Verstappen's age... I myself would rather judge him based on experience than age, because I believe that experience is a much better indicator than age of how much more ability one might have left. He's currently in his second year in F1, so I'd judge his performance against that of other people in their second year in F1, rather than against other people his age. It makes more sense to me to do it that way. Reaching one's peak in any given activity has a lot more to do with time spent and experience gained than it has to do with actual age, and I see no reason to believe that people all reach their peak at the same age -- and some evidence against it.
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Re: Ricciardo 2014 vs 2016 season

Post by Zoue »

Exediron wrote:
lamo wrote:I think Dan is up there in the top 3 drivers, he is a complete driver and he done to Vettel basically what Hamilton done to Alonso and shook up the driver market overnight.
Actually, in every objective and measurable way, he beat Vettel far more conclusively than Hamilton did Alonso. And yet the 'bad year' excuse seems to get trotted out for Vettel far more often than Alonso gets that courtesy...
Zoue wrote:Dan's definitely strong, but I think there's a lot of hyperbole going around at the moment
True enough; hyperbole is what F1 fandom is based upon, and Ricciardo is no more immune to it than anyone else. Objectively however, there is a very good argument that he may be driving at the highest level on the grid at the moment. Out of the other candidates, Lewis seems to be failing to assert himself convincingly against Rosberg lately, while Vettel has been outperformed by Raikkonen more recently than usual of late, and Alonso doesn't seem to have the edge over Button many expect of him.

While there are explanations and excuses for all of that, the fact is that there is nothing of the sort you can point to about Ricciardo to take him out of the running. He's qualifying well (hard to say if he's extracting 100%, but he is consistently outqualifying a not exactly slow teammate), starting well (unlike his teammate, and he's consistently started well ever since the new regulations came into force so it seems likely to be down to him personally) and not making any mistakes in the races to speak of.

At this moment in time, I think it's quite fair to say he is in fact driving the best of the grid when all areas are taken into account. Not a certainty, but not exactly hyperbole either.
I was referring in part to the Schumacher levels of dominance. I think that's maybe a little OTT.

As I said, Dan is definitely strong and I agree that he's joined the ranks of the top drivers. I just think it's a bit early to proclaim that he's the best, which is the implication of the above statement and which others have also suggested. The fact that he's a contender already demonstrates how good he possibly is.

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Re: Ricciardo 2014 vs 2016 season

Post by Toby. »

Remmirath wrote:I agree with those who have said that Ricciardo is almost certainly driving at a higher level this year than in 2014, therefore to some extent it ought to be more impressive; however, 2014 is still the more impressive season to me. That's probably because it was more surprising that he managed to beat Vettel at all, and thoroughly at that, whereas I honestly expected him to be beating Verstappen so I find it less impressive (and really, a four time world champion is almost certainly more difficult to beat than somebody in their second season, even if they are quick).

As far as Ricciardo having been rattled by Verstappen goes, it looked to me more that he was rattled by one otherwise-certain win and one very likely win getting away from him (in Spain both he and Vettel ended up on the wrong strategy, so he may well have thought that win should've been his, and Monaco is obvious) rather than by Verstappen. Obviously he had more work cut out for him to prove that he was going to be able to beat Verstappen, because it was already known about Kvyat, but -- unless I'm missing something -- the issues Ricciardo was having came mostly after Monaco, and the only things I remember him saying were about being disappointed due to team blunders keeping the win from him, so that points to... well, that, rather than being rattled by his new teammate.

Also, with regards to Verstappen's age... I myself would rather judge him based on experience than age, because I believe that experience is a much better indicator than age of how much more ability one might have left. He's currently in his second year in F1, so I'd judge his performance against that of other people in their second year in F1, rather than against other people his age. It makes more sense to me to do it that way. Reaching one's peak in any given activity has a lot more to do with time spent and experience gained than it has to do with actual age, and I see no reason to believe that people all reach their peak at the same age -- and some evidence against it.
Very good. I entirely agree. :thumbup: :thumbup:
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Re: Ricciardo 2014 vs 2016 season

Post by Black_Flag_11 »

He was driver of the year in 2014 for me and he's my driver of the year so far this year too.

I'd say 2016 he is driving at a higher level, while 2014 was more impressive due to circumstance.

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Re: Ricciardo 2014 vs 2016 season

Post by trento »

Black_Flag_11 wrote:He was driver of the year in 2014 for me and he's my driver of the year so far this year too.

I'd say 2016 he is driving at a higher level, while 2014 was more impressive due to circumstance.
If Rosberg keeps putting in half a second quicker quali laps than Lewis, I'll pick him for the 2016 driver.

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Re: Ricciardo 2014 vs 2016 season

Post by mikeyg123 »

trento wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:He was driver of the year in 2014 for me and he's my driver of the year so far this year too.

I'd say 2016 he is driving at a higher level, while 2014 was more impressive due to circumstance.
If Rosberg keeps putting in half a second quicker quali laps than Lewis, I'll pick him for the 2016 driver.
That's a bit like saying if Perez keeps finishing third or Wehrlein keeps finishing in the points ill pick them for the 2016 driver.

Obvious but unlikely.

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Re: Ricciardo 2014 vs 2016 season

Post by typaH4okc »

I think Ricciardo haven't had to face any real pressure yet. Of course part of the reason is that he's that good and hasn't been challenged enough. If he's ever matched with a driver like Hamilton or Alonso we'll see. He wasn't under real pressure in 2014 because he was a newcomer and he could have been blown out by the 4xWDC and still be alright. The two drivers under real pressure are Rosberg and Kvyat. I've been mightily impressed with Rosberg as how he keeps coming back even that he's been outperformed by Hamilton 3 years running. That to me shows real mental toughness, this is way he's back in the lead now. Kvyat has unfortunately crumbled. Sad to see but it looks like his F1 career is coming to an end. And things looked so bright at the beginning of the season.
Zoue wrote: I don't think you're reading that right? The OP has praised Ricciardo, but is just pointing out that Verstappen isn't too far behind and most probably isn't quite near his own best yet. I don't see that as downgrading Ricciardo in any way.

I'm not going to get into the coulda woulda shoulda debate but Max hasn't had everything his own way. You just have to look at the cards they've been dealt and generally Max hasn't been too far off Ric at all. He's even managed to out-qualify him on a couple of occasions and as Ric is an acknowledged qualifying specialist that's not to be sneered at. Generally speaking, they've been fairly close in qualifying - just a tenth or two in it most of the time. I could be wrong but I'm sure I read a week or two ago that they were actually the most closely matched team mates from a qualifying perspective of the entire grid. Given how good we know Ricciardo is, that's pretty impressive.

Ricciardo has been better, but not every time and he's not exactly wiping the floor with Max in the way he was with, say Kvyat. There have been one or two occasions where Max has been genuinely quicker, which says a lot. I know you don't like mentioning his age but it has to be a factor when it's so clearly unusual for someone so young to be driving an F1 car. It's logical to assume that someone who is still of school age would still be learning and won't be at full capability yet
When did Ric wipe the floor with Kvyat?

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Re: Ricciardo 2014 vs 2016 season

Post by mikeyg123 »

typaH4okc wrote:I think Ricciardo haven't had to face any real pressure yet. Of course part of the reason is that he's that good and hasn't been challenged enough. If he's ever matched with a driver like Hamilton or Alonso we'll see. He wasn't under real pressure in 2014 because he was a newcomer and he could have been blown out by the 4xWDC and still be alright. The two drivers under real pressure are Rosberg and Kvyat. I've been mightily impressed with Rosberg as how he keeps coming back even that he's been outperformed by Hamilton 3 years running. That to me shows real mental toughness, this is way he's back in the lead now. Kvyat has unfortunately crumbled. Sad to see but it looks like his F1 career is coming to an end. And things looked so bright at the beginning of the season.
Zoue wrote: I don't think you're reading that right? The OP has praised Ricciardo, but is just pointing out that Verstappen isn't too far behind and most probably isn't quite near his own best yet. I don't see that as downgrading Ricciardo in any way.

I'm not going to get into the coulda woulda shoulda debate but Max hasn't had everything his own way. You just have to look at the cards they've been dealt and generally Max hasn't been too far off Ric at all. He's even managed to out-qualify him on a couple of occasions and as Ric is an acknowledged qualifying specialist that's not to be sneered at. Generally speaking, they've been fairly close in qualifying - just a tenth or two in it most of the time. I could be wrong but I'm sure I read a week or two ago that they were actually the most closely matched team mates from a qualifying perspective of the entire grid. Given how good we know Ricciardo is, that's pretty impressive.

Ricciardo has been better, but not every time and he's not exactly wiping the floor with Max in the way he was with, say Kvyat. There have been one or two occasions where Max has been genuinely quicker, which says a lot. I know you don't like mentioning his age but it has to be a factor when it's so clearly unusual for someone so young to be driving an F1 car. It's logical to assume that someone who is still of school age would still be learning and won't be at full capability yet
When did Ric wipe the floor with Kvyat?
Oh come on you could count on one hand the races where Kvyat was better than Ricciardo.

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Re: Ricciardo 2014 vs 2016 season

Post by Lotus49 »

typaH4okc wrote:I think Ricciardo haven't had to face any real pressure yet. Of course part of the reason is that he's that good and hasn't been challenged enough. If he's ever matched with a driver like Hamilton or Alonso we'll see. He wasn't under real pressure in 2014 because he was a newcomer and he could have been blown out by the 4xWDC and still be alright. The two drivers under real pressure are Rosberg and Kvyat. I've been mightily impressed with Rosberg as how he keeps coming back even that he's been outperformed by Hamilton 3 years running. That to me shows real mental toughness, this is way he's back in the lead now. Kvyat has unfortunately crumbled. Sad to see but it looks like his F1 career is coming to an end. And things looked so bright at the beginning of the season.
Zoue wrote: I don't think you're reading that right? The OP has praised Ricciardo, but is just pointing out that Verstappen isn't too far behind and most probably isn't quite near his own best yet. I don't see that as downgrading Ricciardo in any way.

I'm not going to get into the coulda woulda shoulda debate but Max hasn't had everything his own way. You just have to look at the cards they've been dealt and generally Max hasn't been too far off Ric at all. He's even managed to out-qualify him on a couple of occasions and as Ric is an acknowledged qualifying specialist that's not to be sneered at. Generally speaking, they've been fairly close in qualifying - just a tenth or two in it most of the time. I could be wrong but I'm sure I read a week or two ago that they were actually the most closely matched team mates from a qualifying perspective of the entire grid. Given how good we know Ricciardo is, that's pretty impressive.

Ricciardo has been better, but not every time and he's not exactly wiping the floor with Max in the way he was with, say Kvyat. There have been one or two occasions where Max has been genuinely quicker, which says a lot. I know you don't like mentioning his age but it has to be a factor when it's so clearly unusual for someone so young to be driving an F1 car. It's logical to assume that someone who is still of school age would still be learning and won't be at full capability yet
When did Ric wipe the floor with Kvyat?
In Qualifying and when his car stayed in one piece in the race. :nod: :-P
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