Red Bull want to challenge in 2007?

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F1Oz
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Red Bull want to challenge in 2007?

Post by F1Oz »

Sorry PF - but clearly this should be 2017 -still - let's talk about it as if they got caption right - can RBR challenge next year or is that a pipe dream?

I think RBR can design a car to meet the challenge - the universal question surely is whether they will have a power unit that can be competitive

So will Renault / TAG Heur or whatever be competitive or is that a pipe dream

Discuss (and PF - amend your storyline)

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dizlexik
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Re: Red Bull want to challenge in 2007?

Post by dizlexik »

I think the Renault engine is quite ok these days. Perhaps on some tracks like Monza they won't be able to challenge Mercedes, but that's not necessary to win titles.
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Re: Red Bull want to challenge in 2007?

Post by pokerman »

F1Oz wrote:Sorry PF - but clearly this should be 2017 -still - let's talk about it as if they got caption right - can RBR challenge next year or is that a pipe dream?

I think RBR can design a car to meet the challenge - the universal question surely is whether they will have a power unit that can be competitive

So will Renault / TAG Heur or whatever be competitive or is that a pipe dream

Discuss (and PF - amend your storyline)
Well they were the chief instigators behind the new regulations so that's a good start. ;)
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Re: Red Bull want to challenge in 2007?

Post by Remmirath »

They seem to have had some hand in the new regulations and have the advantage of a most excellent aerodynamis department, so I won't be at all surprised if they are challenging up at the front next year -- or even if they swing back into dominance. Certainly they appear well-poised to take advantage of the new regulations, so I'll be surprised if they wind up doing poorly in the coming season.

The Renault engine really doesn't seem that bad at this point -- the Red Bulls have been doing decently, even on power tracks, and I think most of the Renault works team's poor performance can be put down to their chassis. So long as the engine is at least roughly competetive, it's possible that Red Bull will come out ahead, or at least near the front. So I wouldn't say it's at all a pipe dream for them to be challenging next year, although it is of course also by no means certain.
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Re: Red Bull want to challenge in 2007?

Post by Black_Flag_11 »

I know Adrian Newey is a genius but I think a time machine might be just beyond his capabilities.

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Re: Red Bull want to challenge in 2007?

Post by Exediron »

I personally expect them to not be challenged very much in 2017, honestly.

But hopefully I'm wrong and we'll have a competitive championship instead of the Red Bull whitewash I see coming.
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Re: Red Bull want to challenge in 2007?

Post by Lotus49 »

I think Mercedes will still be able to at least challenge if not dominate because of the strength of the PU. More drag and mechanical grip on the cars is going to require more power to pull the thing along and their top end strength is still too much even for Ferrari let alone Renault and their thermal efficiency is still on another level compared to everyone else.

Then there's the suspension system that AMuS are doing a piece on next week and that RB and Ferrari are struggling with.

May be close in Qualifying but in the races I still think Mercedes will be far too strong for it to get interesting. (At least in the first half of the season, it will depend how close Renault and Total can get to bringing down the gap in TE with open development and if Ferrari can design a top car and update it successfully through the season).
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Re: Red Bull want to challenge in 2007?

Post by Randine »

I saw an interview where Horner claimed they were 30HP down in the V8 era when they won 4 titles.
In those years teams like McLaren and Ferrari would win power tracks like Canada, and Red Bull would win the twisty or high speed corner stuff.

I think that Red Bull have learnt a huge amount in the last few years having an underpowered engine.
Some of their rear wing sizes are crazy and have been visually smaller than other teams at certain tracks. Yet they somehow are able to hold their cornering speed.
If they can get a decent engine, and then start to add the downforce back on, they will be mighty.

On Renault, Red Bull engaged Ilmor to help Renault as far back as August 2014.
Ilmor worked with Renault at the expense of Red Bull to try and get the engine up to speed. However Renault thought they knew better and decided to ignore all of the suggestions that Ilmor put forward.
That was until Brazil 2015 when Ricciardo tried the new update that Renault had been planning for the entire 2015 season and it was slower than the old engine.
Last year they left tokens on the table, this year they have only used 11 tokens, yet they have a far more reliable engine with more power than ever.
(such is the knowledge of what Ilmor have)
As a result of the changes Ilmor advised for this year, Renault have announced a multi year contract with them.
As Renault have now taken advice from the company that Red Bull hired a long time ago, Red Bull have committed to Renault power for at least 2017 and 2018.
Furthermore to show they are fully behind Renault, they are bringing Toro Rosso back to Renault for 2017 and 2018 too.

It seems the reason why Renault have been rationing their tokens is that the engine must have a fundamental design flaw that they can't change using tokens.
They have said they will only update the engine if it benefits the next years engine.
They have a huge update coming at the end of the year. (reading between the lines, maybe they are scrapping a lot of the old engine and adopting a Merc copy)

If Renault produce an engine even close to Merc, Red Bull are in with a shot.
If they also nail the aero regs, then Dan or Max will be WDC in 2017...
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Re: Red Bull want to challenge in 2007?

Post by Lotus49 »

Randine wrote:I saw an interview where Horner claimed they were 30HP down in the V8 era when they won 4 titles.
In those years teams like McLaren and Ferrari would win power tracks like Canada, and Red Bull would win the twisty or high speed corner stuff.

I think that Red Bull have learnt a huge amount in the last few years having an underpowered engine.
Some of their rear wing sizes are crazy and have been visually smaller than other teams at certain tracks. Yet they somehow are able to hold their cornering speed.
If they can get a decent engine, and then start to add the downforce back on, they will be mighty.

On Renault, Red Bull engaged Ilmor to help Renault as far back as August 2014.
Ilmor worked with Renault at the expense of Red Bull to try and get the engine up to speed. However Renault thought they knew better and decided to ignore all of the suggestions that Ilmor put forward.
That was until Brazil 2015 when Ricciardo tried the new update that Renault had been planning for the entire 2015 season and it was slower than the old engine.
Last year they left tokens on the table, this year they have only used 11 tokens, yet they have a far more reliable engine with more power than ever.
(such is the knowledge of what Ilmor have)
As a result of the changes Ilmor advised for this year, Renault have announced a multi year contract with them.
As Renault have now taken advice from the company that Red Bull hired a long time ago, Red Bull have committed to Renault power for at least 2017 and 2018.
Furthermore to show they are fully behind Renault, they are bringing Toro Rosso back to Renault for 2017 and 2018 too.

It seems the reason why Renault have been rationing their tokens is that the engine must have a fundamental design flaw that they can't change using tokens.
They have said they will only update the engine if it benefits the next years engine.
They have a huge update coming at the end of the year. (reading between the lines, maybe they are scrapping a lot of the old engine and adopting a Merc copy)

If Renault produce an engine even close to Merc, Red Bull are in with a shot.
If they also nail the aero regs, then Dan or Max will be WDC in 2017...
The Renault V8 may have lacked some horsepower but the reason it was still able to compete was because of it's superior efficiency. With the exhaust blowing this was key, they managed to both carry less fuel but burn more for blowing than any other engine.

Renault had been developing engines for EBD since the early 80's and were a lot better at it than Mercedes and Ferrari and that along with their chassis is why they were able to compete despite less power. Being the same amount of horsepower down in this era is an entirely different scenario with knock on effects in Q with inferior higher modes and in the race with their thermal efficiency, (which is why they were keen to increase the fuel capacity and Mercedes were so keen to block it), and they also don't hold any significant advantage as they did with the V8. It's a different ball game to overcome that with just superior aero to an already excellent aero on the Mercedes.

They of course have done a great job since last winter but that upgrade in Brazil wasn't used with the new turbo IIRC, just the ICE which is why they were as disappointing as they were. I can't recall the reason RB chose not to run it though.

I hope they do as good a job over the winter as they say, (I think they will), but I'm still not that convinced it will be enough during the races at least to overhaul Mercedes. Mercedes are still constantly upgrading their PU and I don't think they've even fully stretched their legs yet even now.

I think a Ferrari engineer said over the weekend that they believe Mercedes could of gone a further 6ths of a second a lap quicker at Monza during the race if they wanted too, obviously no idea the validity of that but it's scary good how efficient that unit is, if it is just over 50% like Sky said then that is a mountain for Renault and more importantly Total to overcome over this winter.

A Dan vs Max title showdown would be cool though so I hope they can get close enough. And I'm sure they'll win races anyway but I'm just not confident enough they'll overhaul the Mercedes.
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Re: Red Bull want to challenge in 2007?

Post by infi24r »

On key tracks, they will challenge for sure. But Merc still have a PU advantage, that isn't going away and I'm not convinced Red Bull have a better chassis or aero this year either. It works better on specific tracks but its still quite draggy overall.

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Re: Red Bull want to challenge in 2007?

Post by Randine »

Lotus49 wrote:
Randine wrote:I saw an interview where Horner claimed they were 30HP down in the V8 era when they won 4 titles.
In those years teams like McLaren and Ferrari would win power tracks like Canada, and Red Bull would win the twisty or high speed corner stuff.

I think that Red Bull have learnt a huge amount in the last few years having an underpowered engine.
Some of their rear wing sizes are crazy and have been visually smaller than other teams at certain tracks. Yet they somehow are able to hold their cornering speed.
If they can get a decent engine, and then start to add the downforce back on, they will be mighty.

On Renault, Red Bull engaged Ilmor to help Renault as far back as August 2014.
Ilmor worked with Renault at the expense of Red Bull to try and get the engine up to speed. However Renault thought they knew better and decided to ignore all of the suggestions that Ilmor put forward.
That was until Brazil 2015 when Ricciardo tried the new update that Renault had been planning for the entire 2015 season and it was slower than the old engine.
Last year they left tokens on the table, this year they have only used 11 tokens, yet they have a far more reliable engine with more power than ever.
(such is the knowledge of what Ilmor have)
As a result of the changes Ilmor advised for this year, Renault have announced a multi year contract with them.
As Renault have now taken advice from the company that Red Bull hired a long time ago, Red Bull have committed to Renault power for at least 2017 and 2018.
Furthermore to show they are fully behind Renault, they are bringing Toro Rosso back to Renault for 2017 and 2018 too.

It seems the reason why Renault have been rationing their tokens is that the engine must have a fundamental design flaw that they can't change using tokens.
They have said they will only update the engine if it benefits the next years engine.
They have a huge update coming at the end of the year. (reading between the lines, maybe they are scrapping a lot of the old engine and adopting a Merc copy)

If Renault produce an engine even close to Merc, Red Bull are in with a shot.
If they also nail the aero regs, then Dan or Max will be WDC in 2017...
The Renault V8 may have lacked some horsepower but the reason it was still able to compete was because of it's superior efficiency. With the exhaust blowing this was key, they managed to both carry less fuel but burn more for blowing than any other engine.

Renault had been developing engines for EBD since the early 80's and were a lot better at it than Mercedes and Ferrari and that along with their chassis is why they were able to compete despite less power. Being the same amount of horsepower down in this era is an entirely different scenario with knock on effects in Q with inferior higher modes and in the race with their thermal efficiency, (which is why they were keen to increase the fuel capacity and Mercedes were so keen to block it), and they also don't hold any significant advantage as they did with the V8. It's a different ball game to overcome that with just superior aero to an already excellent aero on the Mercedes.

They of course have done a great job since last winter but that upgrade in Brazil wasn't used with the new turbo IIRC, just the ICE which is why they were as disappointing as they were. I can't recall the reason RB chose not to run it though.

I hope they do as good a job over the winter as they say, (I think they will), but I'm still not that convinced it will be enough during the races at least to overhaul Mercedes. Mercedes are still constantly upgrading their PU and I don't think they've even fully stretched their legs yet even now.

I think a Ferrari engineer said over the weekend that they believe Mercedes could of gone a further 6ths of a second a lap quicker at Monza during the race if they wanted too, obviously no idea the validity of that but it's scary good how efficient that unit is, if it is just over 50% like Sky said then that is a mountain for Renault and more importantly Total to overcome over this winter.

A Dan vs Max title showdown would be cool though so I hope they can get close enough. And I'm sure they'll win races anyway but I'm just not confident enough they'll overhaul the Mercedes.
Good points re V8 days.
The thing with Newey is that he always finds a way to get an edge. Webber couldn't adapt the the driving style needed to fully exploit the blown diffuser, so if Vettel couldn't either the car would have been taken in another direction.

re the reason why Red Bull didn't run the updated turbo at Brazil, it didn't fit onto the car...!
The ICE update was 7 tokens, and the turbo 4 making a total of 11 tokens.
However you are right they only ran the ICE 7 token update.
(The only update your engine supplier brings is in October, and it doesn't fully fit onto the car!)
Hence why the relationship between Renault and Red Bull was so fractured last year!

On Merc I would love to see them turn their engine right up. What could it do if they had 1 engine per race for example, and they could run it right on the edge of its performance.

1 thing I haven't seen clarified yet is whether the engines can be worked on throughout the 2017 season or they need to be finalised by Feb 28 like in 2014.
(Ferrari found a loophole for 2015, and for 2016 the teams voted for updates all year).
So the original Feb 28 engine homologation date may still stand for 2017...
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Re: Red Bull want to challenge in 2007?

Post by Randine »

infi24r wrote:On key tracks, they will challenge for sure. But Merc still have a PU advantage, that isn't going away and I'm not convinced Red Bull have a better chassis or aero this year either. It works better on specific tracks but its still quite draggy overall.
At Silverstone the Red Bull was able to corner as fast as the Merc.
If that doesn't show it has a better chassis, then what would?

They have far less downforce on so they can be competitive, yet can lap almost as fast with far less power.

If Renault got close in power to Merc, Red Bull could pile the downforce back on, and they would be in front for sure.
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Re: Red Bull want to challenge in 2007?

Post by Zoue »

Well, the changes next year are supposed to have a fairly major impact and reduce the advantage conferred by more powerful PUs. Given the strides Red Bull have already made this year I should't be at all surprised if they were a serious contender next year. Frankly I have more confidence that they will be than that e.g. Ferrari will be.

I don't know how they do it, but Red Bull appear to understand downforce better than anybody else. If their PU deficit is as big as is claimed, then the fact they are currently as competitive as they are is pretty impressive. Next year should be even better from their perspective

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Re: Red Bull want to challenge in 2007?

Post by Lotus49 »

Randine wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
Randine wrote:I saw an interview where Horner claimed they were 30HP down in the V8 era when they won 4 titles.
In those years teams like McLaren and Ferrari would win power tracks like Canada, and Red Bull would win the twisty or high speed corner stuff.

I think that Red Bull have learnt a huge amount in the last few years having an underpowered engine.
Some of their rear wing sizes are crazy and have been visually smaller than other teams at certain tracks. Yet they somehow are able to hold their cornering speed.
If they can get a decent engine, and then start to add the downforce back on, they will be mighty.

On Renault, Red Bull engaged Ilmor to help Renault as far back as August 2014.
Ilmor worked with Renault at the expense of Red Bull to try and get the engine up to speed. However Renault thought they knew better and decided to ignore all of the suggestions that Ilmor put forward.
That was until Brazil 2015 when Ricciardo tried the new update that Renault had been planning for the entire 2015 season and it was slower than the old engine.
Last year they left tokens on the table, this year they have only used 11 tokens, yet they have a far more reliable engine with more power than ever.
(such is the knowledge of what Ilmor have)
As a result of the changes Ilmor advised for this year, Renault have announced a multi year contract with them.
As Renault have now taken advice from the company that Red Bull hired a long time ago, Red Bull have committed to Renault power for at least 2017 and 2018.
Furthermore to show they are fully behind Renault, they are bringing Toro Rosso back to Renault for 2017 and 2018 too.

It seems the reason why Renault have been rationing their tokens is that the engine must have a fundamental design flaw that they can't change using tokens.
They have said they will only update the engine if it benefits the next years engine.
They have a huge update coming at the end of the year. (reading between the lines, maybe they are scrapping a lot of the old engine and adopting a Merc copy)

If Renault produce an engine even close to Merc, Red Bull are in with a shot.
If they also nail the aero regs, then Dan or Max will be WDC in 2017...
The Renault V8 may have lacked some horsepower but the reason it was still able to compete was because of it's superior efficiency. With the exhaust blowing this was key, they managed to both carry less fuel but burn more for blowing than any other engine.

Renault had been developing engines for EBD since the early 80's and were a lot better at it than Mercedes and Ferrari and that along with their chassis is why they were able to compete despite less power. Being the same amount of horsepower down in this era is an entirely different scenario with knock on effects in Q with inferior higher modes and in the race with their thermal efficiency, (which is why they were keen to increase the fuel capacity and Mercedes were so keen to block it), and they also don't hold any significant advantage as they did with the V8. It's a different ball game to overcome that with just superior aero to an already excellent aero on the Mercedes.

They of course have done a great job since last winter but that upgrade in Brazil wasn't used with the new turbo IIRC, just the ICE which is why they were as disappointing as they were. I can't recall the reason RB chose not to run it though.

I hope they do as good a job over the winter as they say, (I think they will), but I'm still not that convinced it will be enough during the races at least to overhaul Mercedes. Mercedes are still constantly upgrading their PU and I don't think they've even fully stretched their legs yet even now.

I think a Ferrari engineer said over the weekend that they believe Mercedes could of gone a further 6ths of a second a lap quicker at Monza during the race if they wanted too, obviously no idea the validity of that but it's scary good how efficient that unit is, if it is just over 50% like Sky said then that is a mountain for Renault and more importantly Total to overcome over this winter.

A Dan vs Max title showdown would be cool though so I hope they can get close enough. And I'm sure they'll win races anyway but I'm just not confident enough they'll overhaul the Mercedes.
Good points re V8 days.
The thing with Newey is that he always finds a way to get an edge. Webber couldn't adapt the the driving style needed to fully exploit the blown diffuser, so if Vettel couldn't either the car would have been taken in another direction.

re the reason why Red Bull didn't run the updated turbo at Brazil, it didn't fit onto the car...!
The ICE update was 7 tokens, and the turbo 4 making a total of 11 tokens.
However you are right they only ran the ICE 7 token update.
(The only update your engine supplier brings is in October, and it doesn't fully fit onto the car!)
Hence why the relationship between Renault and Red Bull was so fractured last year!

On Merc I would love to see them turn their engine right up. What could it do if they had 1 engine per race for example, and they could run it right on the edge of its performance.

1 thing I haven't seen clarified yet is whether the engines can be worked on throughout the 2017 season or they need to be finalised by Feb 28 like in 2014.
(Ferrari found a loophole for 2015, and for 2016 the teams voted for updates all year).
So the original Feb 28 engine homologation date may still stand for 2017...
I think in season development is allowed, at least I hope so. There was an Autosport article at the time that pointed out Honda wouldn't have suffered as badly under next years rules if it was their first year because of the changes they could make and I assumed that meant that teams were free to make changes through the year.

They'll still only implement it when they are ready to change PU's to the next one in their cycle as to avoid penalties I would imagine so there'll be only a few times a year they'll do it, kinda like this year I guess but I'm just assuming there will be no restrictions until told otherwise anyway!.

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Randine
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Re: Red Bull want to challenge in 2007?

Post by Randine »

yeah, I hope for in season development as well!
You are right, they need to manage the updates around the life of their engines. However as Button in Mexico and Hamilton in Spa showed, you can take 1 penalty and get multiple engines.

The rest of the regs for next year (as far as I can find online anyway) are still a little vague.
Take the press release from April this year on Formula 1 site:
https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/head ... -2017.html

"The agreement follows lengthy talks with the current four F1 power unit manufacturers – Mercedes, Ferrari, Renault and Honda – and will see the removal of the existing ‘token’ system for in-season engine development."
That doesn't necessarily say it is open slather to develop.

There are a few other proposals with the engines that haven't yet seen the light of day.
e.g. due to the extra weight of the tyres and wider cars and wings, the max car weight is up to 722kg in 2017 up from 702kg.
The teams (probably not Merc with their efficient beast of an engine) called for more fuel to cover the extra weight, and at the time it was suggested the fuel tanks might go from 100 to 105 or 110kg.
I hope they also lift the fuel flow rate to match the total fuel if they are given more.

I dont know enough about engines, but what would a 10% increase in fuel flow do to the power output of an engine?
(if they go from 100kg/hr to 110kg/hr)
Would that equate to almost a 10% increase in power, or isn't it that simple...?

In the article linked above 1 of the 4 things the FIA want for F1 is louder engines, and if they can rev higher with a higher fuel flow then that surely would result in louder engines.
(current max rev limit = 15000, current max rev cars get to 12000, with most gear changes at 11,500)

Anyway, 2017 looks to be a great year. I am annoyed that Button is stepping aside.
I hope the new owners dont bleed the sport dry like CVC did, and maybe start returning more of F1's income to the teams more evenly.
I think the teams received about 60% of the total income, if they can up that to 75% and add in another 2-3 teams so you have 26 cars on the grid, it would be awesome.
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Re: Red Bull want to challenge in 2007?

Post by pokerman »

Randine wrote:yeah, I hope for in season development as well!
You are right, they need to manage the updates around the life of their engines. However as Button in Mexico and Hamilton in Spa showed, you can take 1 penalty and get multiple engines.

The rest of the regs for next year (as far as I can find online anyway) are still a little vague.
Take the press release from April this year on Formula 1 site:
https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/head ... -2017.html

"The agreement follows lengthy talks with the current four F1 power unit manufacturers – Mercedes, Ferrari, Renault and Honda – and will see the removal of the existing ‘token’ system for in-season engine development."
That doesn't necessarily say it is open slather to develop.

There are a few other proposals with the engines that haven't yet seen the light of day.
e.g. due to the extra weight of the tyres and wider cars and wings, the max car weight is up to 722kg in 2017 up from 702kg.
The teams (probably not Merc with their efficient beast of an engine) called for more fuel to cover the extra weight, and at the time it was suggested the fuel tanks might go from 100 to 105 or 110kg.
I hope they also lift the fuel flow rate to match the total fuel if they are given more.

I dont know enough about engines, but what would a 10% increase in fuel flow do to the power output of an engine?
(if they go from 100kg/hr to 110kg/hr)
Would that equate to almost a 10% increase in power, or isn't it that simple...?

In the article linked above 1 of the 4 things the FIA want for F1 is louder engines, and if they can rev higher with a higher fuel flow then that surely would result in louder engines.
(current max rev limit = 15000, current max rev cars get to 12000, with most gear changes at 11,500)

Anyway, 2017 looks to be a great year. I am annoyed that Button is stepping aside.
I hope the new owners dont bleed the sport dry like CVC did, and maybe start returning more of F1's income to the teams more evenly.
I think the teams received about 60% of the total income, if they can up that to 75% and add in another 2-3 teams so you have 26 cars on the grid, it would be awesome.
Increasing the fuel flow rate would only lead to more fuel saving given the fuel tank capacity so I wouldn't see this as a good thing.
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Re: Red Bull want to challenge in 2007?

Post by lbennie »

infi24r wrote:On key tracks, they will challenge for sure. But Merc still have a PU advantage, that isn't going away and I'm not convinced Red Bull have a better chassis or aero this year either. It works better on specific tracks but its still quite draggy overall.
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Re: Red Bull want to challenge in 2007?

Post by moby »

Just to reiterate, when they say Merc have a power advantage, they actually mean the peak HP from the ICE, or ICE and power from the turbo is higher than they have.

There is no mention of which engine starts producing usable power at lower RPM, or if the Renault curve is fatter in the middle etc, nor what the equivalent of missing HP is made up with size and weight of components. We also never get told which engine gets how much drop off in power with mileage or many other things.

TBH I do think it is visible that the Merc has more power, but it was the same complaint in pre -hybrid days. I would really like to know all the facts, but of course we never will.

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Re: Red Bull want to challenge in 2007?

Post by Randine »

moby wrote:Just to reiterate, when they say Merc have a power advantage, they actually mean the peak HP from the ICE, or ICE and power from the turbo is higher than they have.

There is no mention of which engine starts producing usable power at lower RPM, or if the Renault curve is fatter in the middle etc, nor what the equivalent of missing HP is made up with size and weight of components. We also never get told which engine gets how much drop off in power with mileage or many other things.

TBH I do think it is visible that the Merc has more power, but it was the same complaint in pre -hybrid days. I would really like to know all the facts, but of course we never will.
Yeah I wish they would publish the numbers on these things!!
I think as the Merc ICE is more powerful, they can use some of that extra power to generate more electricity for the energy stores, which means they can use the electric engine for more of the lap. Merc also have a magic quali mode they can tap into that seems to give them that extra 0.2-0.4 compared to race running.

The Renault engine seems really good on drivability (smooth power delivery) and with Red Bull's aero that goes a long way to their high speed cornering.
Maybe why the car was very well suited to Monaco, and also any time it is wet. e.g. Austin in 2015, Ric overtook Nico and Hamilton in the wet.
Or Silverstone 2016 when Max was able to get past Nico in the wet also.
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Re: Red Bull want to challenge in 2007?

Post by Blinky McSquinty »

Flip a coin.

Each major rules changes alters the game so much no one knows where they stand until the first race of the season.

That is almost a rule carved in stone. But over time and from the big picture, the better financed teams eventually find their way to the top. They just may not get there in 2017, it may take over a season to build a competitive package.

Another constant is that for teams not hurting badly for money, they always promise that "next year we will be better". McLaren has said so, also Ferrari, Renault, and Red Bull. No surprise, just the predictable PR noise.
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Re: Red Bull want to challenge in 2007?

Post by Mercedes-Benz »

The rule change should make it even. But Mercedes can still win many races. There was a rumour that the engine is 1000bhp?. In Monza qualifying I think it was evident they still have good advantage as Ferrari used all tokens and were 0.8secs off and RBR were 1.2secs behind. So if they can optimise the engine and use it full power in Q3 they might still get lots of pole position next year and win races. I do not think any one team will dominate.
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Re: Red Bull want to challenge in 2007?

Post by GingerFurball »

Mercedes-Benz wrote:The rule change should make it even. But Mercedes can still win many races. There was a rumour that the engine is 1000bhp?. In Monza qualifying I think it was evident they still have good advantage as Ferrari used all tokens and were 0.8secs off and RBR were 1.2secs behind. So if they can optimise the engine and use it full power in Q3 they might still get lots of pole position next year and win races. I do not think any one team will dominate.
I'd be surprised if 2017 was particularly even. Drastic rule changes tend to favour one team who gets the best answer to the problem right out of the box.

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Re: Red Bull want to challenge in 2007?

Post by Juzzy82 »

These PU's are so incredibly complex, who knows what advantage Merc will have in terms of power. Convergence was meant to happen between manufacturers but that's only true if the development window narrows. That's not going to happen for a long time.

At least the new regs are a step in the right direction in terms of the best TEAM designing the best car and winning the championship as opposed to the best engine manufacturer.

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Re: Red Bull want to challenge in 2007?

Post by GingerFurball »

Juzzy82 wrote:These PU's are so incredibly complex, who knows what advantage Merc will have in terms of power. Convergence was meant to happen between manufacturers but that's only true if the development window narrows. That's not going to happen for a long time.

At least the new regs are a step in the right direction in terms of the best TEAM designing the best car and winning the championship as opposed to the best engine manufacturer.
It is the best team that's winning. Mercedes' advantage is more than just their engine, no other Mercedes powered team is getting close to podiums, never mind race wins.

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Re: Red Bull want to challenge in 2007?

Post by Randine »

GingerFurball wrote:
Juzzy82 wrote:These PU's are so incredibly complex, who knows what advantage Merc will have in terms of power. Convergence was meant to happen between manufacturers but that's only true if the development window narrows. That's not going to happen for a long time.

At least the new regs are a step in the right direction in terms of the best TEAM designing the best car and winning the championship as opposed to the best engine manufacturer.
It is the best team that's winning. Mercedes' advantage is more than just their engine, no other Mercedes powered team is getting close to podiums, never mind race wins.
Yes, I am sure they have a great chassis.
However the fuel could also play a huge role.
It was reported that when McLaren in 2014 had Merc engines, they were up to 40 HP down due to using Mobil fuel vs Petronas.
http://www.skysports.com/f1/news/32420/ ... cy-in-2015

Merc would also have some special engine modes that they wouldn't pass onto their customers.

At least with Renault/Red Bull they both use the same fuel.
Admittedly, I don't know what all the Merc teams use, but as Petronas are a major sponsor of the Mercedes team, they would save the special fuel for them.
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Re: Red Bull want to challenge in 2007?

Post by pokerman »

Juzzy82 wrote:These PU's are so incredibly complex, who knows what advantage Merc will have in terms of power. Convergence was meant to happen between manufacturers but that's only true if the development window narrows. That's not going to happen for a long time.

At least the new regs are a step in the right direction in terms of the best TEAM designing the best car and winning the championship as opposed to the best engine manufacturer.
Why is that?

F1 has always been about the driver, team and engine, equality of engines has only been a recent development that just happened to coincide with Red Bull starting their own team, unequal engines is only as unfair as unequal cars and unequal budgets.
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Re: Red Bull want to challenge in 2007?

Post by kleefton »

I think the next regulations are aimed at reducing the power unit significance.

There is no reason not to think that Redbull will not jump to the front. The Renault power unit is getting better, they have 2 of the very best drivers on the grid, and Adrian Newey is looming in the background. My bigger question is how smoothly Mercedes will transition to the new rules. Will they still build a top notch car?

I tend to think they will have the second best car and Redbull will be the car to beat. I would love to see Mclaren also in the mix, but frankly they have not done enough for me to think they will be a factor next year. I also think Ferrari will be in the top three, but not a serious contender.

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Re: Red Bull want to challenge in 2007?

Post by dizlexik »

Blinky McSquinty wrote:Flip a coin.

Each major rules changes alters the game so much no one knows where they stand until the first race of the season.

That is almost a rule carved in stone. But over time and from the big picture, the better financed teams eventually find their way to the top. They just may not get there in 2017, it may take over a season to build a competitive package.

Another constant is that for teams not hurting badly for money, they always promise that "next year we will be better". McLaren has said so, also Ferrari, Renault, and Red Bull. No surprise, just the predictable PR noise.
Frankly Renault is total crap right now. They would need to try hard to be even worse than this year. ;)
eeee

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Re: Red Bull want to challenge in 2007?

Post by pokerman »

dizlexik wrote:
Blinky McSquinty wrote:Flip a coin.

Each major rules changes alters the game so much no one knows where they stand until the first race of the season.

That is almost a rule carved in stone. But over time and from the big picture, the better financed teams eventually find their way to the top. They just may not get there in 2017, it may take over a season to build a competitive package.

Another constant is that for teams not hurting badly for money, they always promise that "next year we will be better". McLaren has said so, also Ferrari, Renault, and Red Bull. No surprise, just the predictable PR noise.
Frankly Renault is total crap right now. They would need to try hard to be even worse than this year. ;)
I thought that this year's Renault was little more than a re-badged Lotus?

Everyone seems to think they will be total rubbish before they have even designed their first car?
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Re: Red Bull want to challenge in 2007?

Post by Zoue »

pokerman wrote:
dizlexik wrote:
Blinky McSquinty wrote:Flip a coin.

Each major rules changes alters the game so much no one knows where they stand until the first race of the season.

That is almost a rule carved in stone. But over time and from the big picture, the better financed teams eventually find their way to the top. They just may not get there in 2017, it may take over a season to build a competitive package.

Another constant is that for teams not hurting badly for money, they always promise that "next year we will be better". McLaren has said so, also Ferrari, Renault, and Red Bull. No surprise, just the predictable PR noise.
Frankly Renault is total crap right now. They would need to try hard to be even worse than this year. ;)
I thought that this year's Renault was little more than a re-badged Lotus?

Everyone seems to think they will be total rubbish before they have even designed their first car?
Agree with this. I think people tend to forget Renault bought Lotus at the last possible moment, All they have this year is a legacy car and it shouldn't be an indicator to what they might bring in 2017. I expect they will be significantly stronger and I'd be surprised if they were propping up the rear again

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Re: Red Bull want to challenge in 2007?

Post by dizlexik »

Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
dizlexik wrote:
Blinky McSquinty wrote:Flip a coin.

Each major rules changes alters the game so much no one knows where they stand until the first race of the season.

That is almost a rule carved in stone. But over time and from the big picture, the better financed teams eventually find their way to the top. They just may not get there in 2017, it may take over a season to build a competitive package.

Another constant is that for teams not hurting badly for money, they always promise that "next year we will be better". McLaren has said so, also Ferrari, Renault, and Red Bull. No surprise, just the predictable PR noise.
Frankly Renault is total crap right now. They would need to try hard to be even worse than this year. ;)
I thought that this year's Renault was little more than a re-badged Lotus?

Everyone seems to think they will be total rubbish before they have even designed their first car?
Agree with this. I think people tend to forget Renault bought Lotus at the last possible moment, All they have this year is a legacy car and it shouldn't be an indicator to what they might bring in 2017. I expect they will be significantly stronger and I'd be surprised if they were propping up the rear again
I know, but Blinky said it as if teams always promise improvement but never deliver. Renault in 2017 will be better, I will eat my bike if I'm proven wrong.
eeee

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Re: Red Bull want to challenge in 2007?

Post by Juzzy82 »

Banning of double diffusers, off throttle blow diffusers, engine mapping, increasing flexible body work thresholds... All these thing were done to restrict red Bull. Nothing has been done to restrict Mercedes since 2014.

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Re: Red Bull want to challenge in 2007?

Post by Lotus49 »

Juzzy82 wrote:Banning of double diffusers, off throttle blow diffusers, engine mapping, increasing flexible body work thresholds... All these thing were done to restrict red Bull. Nothing has been done to restrict Mercedes since 2014.
I think the ban on FRIC was made with Mercedes in mind.
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Re: Red Bull want to challenge in 2007?

Post by pokerman »

Lotus49 wrote:
Juzzy82 wrote:Banning of double diffusers, off throttle blow diffusers, engine mapping, increasing flexible body work thresholds... All these thing were done to restrict red Bull. Nothing has been done to restrict Mercedes since 2014.
I think the ban on FRIC was made with Mercedes in mind.
Yes indeed plus the double diffuser wasn't to slow Red Bull in particular, that wasn't something they introduced themselves, regarding flexible bodywork that was borderline cheating.
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Re: Red Bull want to challenge in 2007?

Post by Juzzy82 »

Lotus49 wrote:
Juzzy82 wrote:Banning of double diffusers, off throttle blow diffusers, engine mapping, increasing flexible body work thresholds... All these thing were done to restrict red Bull. Nothing has been done to restrict Mercedes since 2014.
I think the ban on FRIC was made with Mercedes in mind.
Most teams were using FRIC in some form. If they really wanted to hurt Merc they would have banned cross-axle connected suspension which they have not.

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Re: Red Bull want to challenge in 2007?

Post by Juzzy82 »

pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
Juzzy82 wrote:Banning of double diffusers, off throttle blow diffusers, engine mapping, increasing flexible body work thresholds... All these thing were done to restrict red Bull. Nothing has been done to restrict Mercedes since 2014.
I think the ban on FRIC was made with Mercedes in mind.
Yes indeed plus the double diffuser wasn't to slow Red Bull in particular, that wasn't something they introduced themselves, regarding flexible bodywork that was borderline cheating.
Everything could be borderline cheating - you either are or you aren't. You can't be "a little bit pregnant". The fact that other teams are using flexible body work still indicates that it clearly isn't cheating. We may as well say Merc is cheating because they have come up with an engine and FRIC system better than the other teams.

Fact is that some people are just bitter about RBR and ze Jerman's success. All teams have the same opportunities to create and use these systems.

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Re: Red Bull want to challenge in 2007?

Post by pokerman »

Juzzy82 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
Juzzy82 wrote:Banning of double diffusers, off throttle blow diffusers, engine mapping, increasing flexible body work thresholds... All these thing were done to restrict red Bull. Nothing has been done to restrict Mercedes since 2014.
I think the ban on FRIC was made with Mercedes in mind.
Yes indeed plus the double diffuser wasn't to slow Red Bull in particular, that wasn't something they introduced themselves, regarding flexible bodywork that was borderline cheating.
Everything could be borderline cheating - you either are or you aren't. You can't be "a little bit pregnant". The fact that other teams are using flexible body work still indicates that it clearly isn't cheating. We may as well say Merc is cheating because they have come up with an engine and FRIC system better than the other teams.

Fact is that some people are just bitter about RBR and ze Jerman's success. All teams have the same opportunities to create and use these systems.
They were using parts that sometimes had to be removed the following race, developed technologies that passed scrutineering checks but then worked outside the written rules in the race itself, they even did get thrown out of qualifying for cheating in Abu Dhabi 2014, you compare this with FRIC and the current engines?
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Re: Red Bull want to challenge in 2007?

Post by Juzzy82 »

pokerman wrote:
Juzzy82 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
Juzzy82 wrote:Banning of double diffusers, off throttle blow diffusers, engine mapping, increasing flexible body work thresholds... All these thing were done to restrict red Bull. Nothing has been done to restrict Mercedes since 2014.
I think the ban on FRIC was made with Mercedes in mind.
Yes indeed plus the double diffuser wasn't to slow Red Bull in particular, that wasn't something they introduced themselves, regarding flexible bodywork that was borderline cheating.
Everything could be borderline cheating - you either are or you aren't. You can't be "a little bit pregnant". The fact that other teams are using flexible body work still indicates that it clearly isn't cheating. We may as well say Merc is cheating because they have come up with an engine and FRIC system better than the other teams.

Fact is that some people are just bitter about RBR and ze Jerman's success. All teams have the same opportunities to create and use these systems.
They were using parts that sometimes had to be removed the following race, developed technologies that passed scrutineering checks but then worked outside the written rules in the race itself, they even did get thrown out of qualifying for cheating in Abu Dhabi 2014, you compare this with FRIC and the current engines?
We know they were sent to the back of the grid in Abhu-Dhabi 2014, but this wasn't when they were winning championships. As for everything else, where are your sources for this? The only thing they had to remove was when the FIA decided to tighten up the regulations - eg certain engine mapping, diffusers, etc.

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Re: Red Bull want to challenge in 2007?

Post by pokerman »

Juzzy82 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Juzzy82 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
I think the ban on FRIC was made with Mercedes in mind.
Yes indeed plus the double diffuser wasn't to slow Red Bull in particular, that wasn't something they introduced themselves, regarding flexible bodywork that was borderline cheating.
Everything could be borderline cheating - you either are or you aren't. You can't be "a little bit pregnant". The fact that other teams are using flexible body work still indicates that it clearly isn't cheating. We may as well say Merc is cheating because they have come up with an engine and FRIC system better than the other teams.

Fact is that some people are just bitter about RBR and ze Jerman's success. All teams have the same opportunities to create and use these systems.
They were using parts that sometimes had to be removed the following race, developed technologies that passed scrutineering checks but then worked outside the written rules in the race itself, they even did get thrown out of qualifying for cheating in Abu Dhabi 2014, you compare this with FRIC and the current engines?
We know they were sent to the back of the grid in Abhu-Dhabi 2014, but this wasn't when they were winning championships. As for everything else, where are your sources for this? The only thing they had to remove was when the FIA decided to tighten up the regulations - eg certain engine mapping, diffusers, etc.
The holes that they said were not holes, also the double diffusor was not the brain child of Red Bull. Abu Dhabi showed how far they were prepared to push the rules, it could be argued some other times they simply got let off with a slap on the wrists which ultimately led to the mickey take in Abu Dhabi.
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