Verstappen, Vettel, Hamilton, Alonso - crash kids

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ReservoirDog
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Verstappen, Vettel, Hamilton, Alonso - crash kids

Post by ReservoirDog »

Disclaimer: I am not a MV fan by any stretch.

I love how MV is making his presence known by upsetting the apple cart and re-writing the rules of racing. Suddenly he's the devil, but that reminds me of two other kids not in the two distant past who made their arrival known in such a manner.

LH - He spent every post-race in the stewards office. He was the late breaker who needed to be reigned in, he had an "I pass or we crash" (esp. Monza 08 against Webber) mentality. He was hated by quite a few and was one race away from a huge crash in the eyes of many. A disaster waiting to happen. Guess what? That never came to pass and now he's a 3x WDC.

SV - Crash kid who couldn't overtake. Clumsy and error-prone. Needed his head checked. We were also used to hearing this. I remember Button saying words to that effect at Spa 10 when he rammed into the side of his McLaren. Look where he's now.

FA - While not at the same level of the former two (probably coz he started at Minardi), he was also called reckless. Again, at Spa 03, DC called him out. Brazil 03 is another one. He was known to brake earlier. Now a 2x WDC.

These three are now the undisputed top 3 drivers in the eyes of most F1 fans.

What I am trying to get at is, it's great to see MV arriving at the scene in a similar manner. Not saying that that means he's an automatic future great, but there'll always be haters who get accustomed to the neutered way racing is conducted and can't accept someone who upsets the apple card. Every body knows he's there. Raikkonen most of all.

Here's the MV for providing us entertainment and not being a dull, vapid, wet blankets like Bottas, Magnussen, Sainz and the likes.

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Re: Verstappen, Vettel, Hamilton, Alonso - crash kids

Post by Zoue »

The future's a tombstone if he keeps playing chicken with people.

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Re: Verstappen, Vettel, Hamilton, Alonso - crash kids

Post by GingerFurball »

Nah, Verstappen got away with driving like an absolute dick today.

He's getting away with it because he's up against experienced campaigners who know better than to crash into someone to prove a point, but at some point someone on the grid isn't going to yield to his rubbish and there's going to be a massive accident.

He has some serious refining to do with his defending technique. Two of the most memorable overtakes in recent history - Alonso on Schumacher at 130R and Webber on Alonso in Eau Rouge were made possible because of the conduct of the defending driver and because the attacker knew that he could trust the defender not to do something ridiculous. I dread to think what might have happened if either of those moves had been attempted on Max 'I drive how I want' Verstappen.

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Re: Verstappen, Vettel, Hamilton, Alonso - crash kids

Post by ReservoirDog »

Zoue wrote:The future's a tombstone if he keeps playing chicken with people.
Just like it was for Hamilton and Vettel? Like I said, people love being drama queens.

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Re: Verstappen, Vettel, Hamilton, Alonso - crash kids

Post by mcdo »

When I hear the term "crash kid" I only ever think Vettel. I don't think the others listed fall into the same category as his incident-filled first few years. Also, while Verstappen is wild he doesn't crash much

Max is a future great but it's like he's awaiting a mindset-changing almighty wallop
Last edited by mcdo on Sun Aug 28, 2016 8:15 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Verstappen, Vettel, Hamilton, Alonso - crash kids

Post by Flash2k11 »

The future wont be a tombstone but he will eventually come up against someone with far less to lose and will end up having the accident that he is currently looking for with the way he is defending at the end of long straights.
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Re: Verstappen, Vettel, Hamilton, Alonso - crash kids

Post by Badgeronimous »

Verstappen move was deserving of a penalty imo. It was very late, wreck less and tbh.... Raikkonen is on of the cleaner racers on the grid, against some that ends in a huge accident.

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Re: Verstappen, Vettel, Hamilton, Alonso - crash kids

Post by Zoue »

ReservoirDog wrote:
Zoue wrote:The future's a tombstone if he keeps playing chicken with people.
Just like it was for Hamilton and Vettel? Like I said, people love being drama queens.
and others love being in denial. it's not simply aggressive driving, but IMO it's dangerous driving. In two races now he's made what I feel are very dangerous moves in defending against the car behind. And he doesn't appear to think he's doing anything wrong. When he tries it against a less competent or experienced driver it will end in tears

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Re: Verstappen, Vettel, Hamilton, Alonso - crash kids

Post by Mr-E »

ReservoirDog wrote:Disclaimer: I am not a MV fan by any stretch.
I Think you are. You told me and others to take up field hockey because we complained about his driving in the stewards thread.
So tell me? When is it tough enough for you? When someone get's injured or even worse?
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Re: Verstappen, Vettel, Hamilton, Alonso - crash kids

Post by lamo »

Hamiltons arrival?
He didn't have contact with another car is his first season, not even close once. Hamiltons disaster came in the second half of 2011, his fifth season.

I don't think it's fair to put alonso and Hamilton in with vettel and max. Especially Vettel who had around. 7 accidents in this first 2 seasons.

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Re: Verstappen, Vettel, Hamilton, Alonso - crash kids

Post by optimisteprime »

mcdo wrote:When I hear the term "crash kid" I only ever think Vettel. I don't think the others listed fall into the same category as his incident-filled first few years. Also, while Verstappen is wild he doesn't crash much

Max is a future great but it's like he's awaiting a mindset-changing almighty wallop

Vettel's first few years were not incident filled by any stretch of the imagination. The term crash kid was coined by Martin Whitmarsh during Vettel's first championship winning year when he was beating both McLaren drivers and Whitmarsh was trying to play mind games. The name stuck because the British media took its usual approach of latching on to any narrative they could that would paint the top German driver in a negative light.

The phrase was invented after he had two incidents during the season, one with Webber and one with Button. The Merc drivers have hit each other that many times this year and nobody is calling them crash kids. Vettel had a couple of years behind him prior to that and while he'd been in a couple of crashes, it was certainly no more than any other driver in other midfield teams and he didn't have any kind of reputation for it.

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Re: Verstappen, Vettel, Hamilton, Alonso - crash kids

Post by Remmirath »

GingerFurball wrote:Nah, Verstappen got away with driving like an absolute dick today.

He's getting away with it because he's up against experienced campaigners who know better than to crash into someone to prove a point, but at some point someone on the grid isn't going to yield to his rubbish and there's going to be a massive accident.

He has some serious refining to do with his defending technique. Two of the most memorable overtakes in recent history - Alonso on Schumacher at 130R and Webber on Alonso in Eau Rouge were made possible because of the conduct of the defending driver and because the attacker knew that he could trust the defender not to do something ridiculous. I dread to think what might have happened if either of those moves had been attempted on Max 'I drive how I want' Verstappen.
I couldn't agree more. Hard but fair racing is one thing, but crossing the line into dangerous racing is another, and Verstappen definitley did that today. I would say that he has a few times in the past as well, but today as very obvious. The stewards really need to actually penalise him for it at some point, or it seems he's just going to keep believing that he's done nothing at all wrong. It's actually a bit frustrating to watch, because he is very quick, and sometimes he pulls off genuinely gutsy and exciting moves -- but then he goes and weaves in the braking zone or on a straight, or runs someone off the track, and still manages to get away with it. Assuming he can get past all this, I do think that he's probably got a great career ahead of him, but the sooner he cleans up his driving the better.
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Re: Verstappen, Vettel, Hamilton, Alonso - crash kids

Post by Blinky McSquinty »

For many champions from the last 30 years, most were characterized by being aggressive bullies on the track. If it wasn't Senna or Schumacher, it was Vettel and Hamilton. Good guys finish last, and each of the drivers mentioned above have informed all of the other drivers ... "don't mess with me, I won't back down".

It is not cricket, and their conduct in the car falls short of any pretense of fair sportsmanship. Because this is Formula One where the strong feed off the bones of the weak, where millions of dollars are at stake, one must be ruthless to attain titles.

They must be willing to do whatever it takes to win, often pushing the boundaries and occasionally running afoul of the officials. This is how they learn the limits, what they can or can not get away with.

Yes, I'm a fan of Max Verstappen, and yes, he was a complete dick today at Spa. But he is driving in this way, not giving anything and taking when he can. There will be races like today when it can be considered a disaster. But team principals like these kinds of drivers. They know those kinds of drivers will mature and learn the ropes, and in a few years, become the type of drivers who win titles.

Many fans fail to contemplate the big picture, and the long picture. Some may complain that "so and so" should be banned for life because of one bad race. But teams think many years into the future. In the example of Red Bull, they know that the Mercedes dominance will fade, and then they will have a good car and a driver definitely mature and ready to wage war.

Understand this: on the track there is no sportsmanship or respect.
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Re: Verstappen, Vettel, Hamilton, Alonso - crash kids

Post by lamo »

optimisteprime wrote:
mcdo wrote:When I hear the term "crash kid" I only ever think Vettel. I don't think the others listed fall into the same category as his incident-filled first few years. Also, while Verstappen is wild he doesn't crash much

Max is a future great but it's like he's awaiting a mindset-changing almighty wallop

Vettel's first few years were not incident filled by any stretch of the imagination. The term crash kid was coined by Martin Whitmarsh during Vettel's first championship winning year when he was beating both McLaren drivers and Whitmarsh was trying to play mind games. The name stuck because the British media took its usual approach of latching on to any narrative they could that would paint the top German driver in a negative light.

The phrase was invented after he had two incidents during the season, one with Webber and one with Button. The Merc drivers have hit each other that many times this year and nobody is calling them crash kids. Vettel had a couple of years behind him prior to that and while he'd been in a couple of crashes, it was certainly no more than any other driver in other midfield teams and he didn't have any kind of reputation for it.
I am sure Martin used what he saw in 2007-2009 as well... these are just the DNFs for his first 32 races. Not including contacts and incidents when he still finished which was quite a few other races too.

2007
Japan - collision
2008
Aus - collision
Bah - collision
Spain - collision
(At this point he had done 12 races, retired in 33% of them due to collisions)
Britain - collision
2009
Aus - collision
Mala - spun off
Mon - accident

He improved from this point on, which is just under 2 seasons of races. 32 races, he DNF'd due to a crash in 8 of them. 25% which is a huge amount.

So the title was well earned before 2010...

2011 onwards he ironed this out of his racing and is a much better driver

For comparison;
To notch up 8 DNFs due to accident/collision/spin it took Alonso until the Brazilian GP 2009 - his 139th race = 5.7%
To notch up 8 DNFs due to accident/collision/spin it took Hamilton until the European GP 2012 - his 98th race = 8.1%
To notch up 8 DNFs due to accident/collision/spin it took Vettel until the Monaco GP 2009 - his 32nd race = 25%
Max has done 32 races and has 3 DNF due to accident/collision/spin = 9.3%
Last edited by lamo on Sun Aug 28, 2016 11:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Verstappen, Vettel, Hamilton, Alonso - crash kids

Post by lbennie »

Ric managed the transition to top driver without any crashing at all. I don't see how it is a right of passage, as you are putting it.

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Re: Verstappen, Vettel, Hamilton, Alonso - crash kids

Post by huggybear »

With Hamilton, Alonso and Vettel, it was always a case of them being too aggressive on the attack and making mistakes because they overstepped the limit.
Aside from Monaco last year, that hasn't been the case with Verstappen, it's been his defending that has been questioned. Today it was only Raikkonen's quick reactions that stopped a huge crash.
The difference between them is that with the former kind of driver, you can predict what they are going to do, and if they are following you, you know to expect an aggressive,probably late move. With Verstappen's defensive weaving, no one can prepare for it, because no one knows what he is going to do. Guess wrongly, and you're going straight to the scene of a huge accident.

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Re: Verstappen, Vettel, Hamilton, Alonso - crash kids

Post by ReservoirDog »

Zoue wrote:
ReservoirDog wrote:
Zoue wrote:The future's a tombstone if he keeps playing chicken with people.
Just like it was for Hamilton and Vettel? Like I said, people love being drama queens.
and others love being in denial. it's not simply aggressive driving, but IMO it's dangerous driving. In two races now he's made what I feel are very dangerous moves in defending against the car behind. And he doesn't appear to think he's doing anything wrong. When he tries it against a less competent or experienced driver it will end in tears
What denial? I am in denial of hypothetical BS scenarios? Some denial, innit? Why not talk actual facts. I have heard it all before and it has never panned out how drama queens envision it. You seem to be living in coulda woulda shoulda land.

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Re: Verstappen, Vettel, Hamilton, Alonso - crash kids

Post by ReservoirDog »

lamo wrote:Hamiltons arrival?
He didn't have contact with another car is his first season, not even close once. Hamiltons disaster came in the second half of 2011, his fifth season.

I don't think it's fair to put alonso and Hamilton in with vettel and max. Especially Vettel who had around. 7 accidents in this first 2 seasons.
Well, Alonso was considered reckless, but not to the same extent. Lewis Hamilton was most certainly known for being too aggressive with his overtakes during 07 and 08. I remember it clearly because I was one of his haters back then because it tiddled me how he made it look effortless and could overtake anywhere while my fav drivers had no balls! I hoped all the whining against him would result in a ban or something. Now I admire it obviously and am an LH fan!

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Re: Verstappen, Vettel, Hamilton, Alonso - crash kids

Post by mcdo »

lamo wrote:
optimisteprime wrote:
mcdo wrote:When I hear the term "crash kid" I only ever think Vettel. I don't think the others listed fall into the same category as his incident-filled first few years. Also, while Verstappen is wild he doesn't crash much

Max is a future great but it's like he's awaiting a mindset-changing almighty wallop

Vettel's first few years were not incident filled by any stretch of the imagination. The term crash kid was coined by Martin Whitmarsh during Vettel's first championship winning year when he was beating both McLaren drivers and Whitmarsh was trying to play mind games. The name stuck because the British media took its usual approach of latching on to any narrative they could that would paint the top German driver in a negative light.

The phrase was invented after he had two incidents during the season, one with Webber and one with Button. The Merc drivers have hit each other that many times this year and nobody is calling them crash kids. Vettel had a couple of years behind him prior to that and while he'd been in a couple of crashes, it was certainly no more than any other driver in other midfield teams and he didn't have any kind of reputation for it.
I am sure Martin used what he saw in 2007-2009 as well... these are just the DNFs for his first 32 races. Not including contacts and incidents when he still finished which was quite a few other races too.

2007
Japan - collision
2008
Aus - collision
Bah - collision
Spain - collision
(At this point he had done 12 races, retired in 33% of them due to collisions)
Britain - collision
2009
Aus - collision
Mala - spun off
Mon - accident

He improved from this point on, which is just under 2 seasons of races. 32 races, he DNF'd due to a crash in 8 of them. 25% which is a huge amount.

So the title was well earned before 2010...

2011 onwards he ironed this out of his racing and is a much better driver

For comparison;
To notch up 8 DNFs due to accident/collision/spin it took Alonso until the Brazilian GP 2009 - his 139th race = 5.7%
To notch up 8 DNFs due to accident/collision/spin it took Hamilton until the European GP 2012 - his 98th race = 8.1%
To notch up 8 DNFs due to accident/collision/spin it took Vettel until the Monaco GP 2009 - his 32nd race = 25%
Max has done 32 races and has 3 DNF due to accident/collision/spin = 9.3%
In 2008 I remember there being some weird stat like in the first 4 races Seb hadn't completed a lap in 3 of them
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Re: Verstappen, Vettel, Hamilton, Alonso - crash kids

Post by Pietkok »

In a Dutch interview with Max (by an interviewer who obviously says he did nothing wrong) he said: ''They destroyed my race, so I won't just let them past, I'll rather drive them off track.'' (translated). He has a lot to learn in this respect, I hope the team will help him.

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Re: Verstappen, Vettel, Hamilton, Alonso - crash kids

Post by Mercedes-Benz »

This guy has got issues. As soon as he got out of the car during the red flag he rushed to pit wall and started moaning that he was taken out. It was obvious both Ferrari got him at the start but he could not accept it and 3 cars touched and their race got compromised. After that he was driving like crazy.

He could have easily been hit twice in Hungary and in this race as well but he does not want to change his style. He is relining on the driver behind to prevent the collision all the time. I do not get his logic and people defending him :?
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Re: Verstappen, Vettel, Hamilton, Alonso - crash kids

Post by Andy2402 »

Blinky McSquinty wrote:For many champions from the last 30 years, most were characterized by being aggressive bullies on the track. If it wasn't Senna or Schumacher, it was Vettel and Hamilton. Good guys finish last, and each of the drivers mentioned above have informed all of the other drivers ... "don't mess with me, I won't back down".

It is not cricket, and their conduct in the car falls short of any pretense of fair sportsmanship. Because this is Formula One where the strong feed off the bones of the weak, where millions of dollars are at stake, one must be ruthless to attain titles.

They must be willing to do whatever it takes to win, often pushing the boundaries and occasionally running afoul of the officials. This is how they learn the limits, what they can or can not get away with.

Yes, I'm a fan of Max Verstappen, and yes, he was a complete dick today at Spa. But he is driving in this way, not giving anything and taking when he can. There will be races like today when it can be considered a disaster. But team principals like these kinds of drivers. They know those kinds of drivers will mature and learn the ropes, and in a few years, become the type of drivers who win titles.

Many fans fail to contemplate the big picture, and the long picture. Some may complain that "so and so" should be banned for life because of one bad race. But teams think many years into the future. In the example of Red Bull, they know that the Mercedes dominance will fade, and then they will have a good car and a driver definitely mature and ready to wage war.

Understand this: on the track there is no sportsmanship or respect.
I understand what your saying about the sportsmanship, the grit and take no prisoners push the boundaries approach that teams want in drivers a la Senna Schumacher etc. Teams will look at the bigger picture in terms of his potential capability once refined. However I think the point most people are making is there's pushing the boundaries and there is seriously dangerous moves. In the short term there is concern over drover safety and he is going to get shunted off into a barrier at 200mph. Which nobody wants to see. He might survive and learn his lesson, he might die as well. That's not even talking about the other drivers in any potential incident.

However saying that, he is well within his rights currently to carry out these moves , Charlie vindicated his moves a few races ago on kimi , even referring to the lack of a distinct regulation around that movement, it seems more a gentleman's agreement.

If the status quo remains we can expect other drivers to start doing this, and the stewards will have an absolute nightmare deciding what was "on the line" and what was a step too far. Far easier to just clarify it's not allowed. I'm sure verstappen is good enough to find alternative methods

On a side note for me how blocked ie didn't attempt the normal line 2 other drivers at the turn following the straight and there was nothing said . I'm not as bothered about these 2 moves I'd actually allow them to some extent. But if we look at all max actions at spa and compare it to Rosberg's "block" pass on him a couple of races ago to which rosberg received a penalty it just doesn't seem right

Re the original poster, drivers make mistakes, more likely those drivers with that edge and competitive streak. It's not surprising in their rookie years or when in a less competitive car they have collisions. I'd only label somebody a crash kid if that continued each Year, even after promotion into a front team .

I'm sure Hamilton rosberg vettel etc would have had more collisions this year if they were driving a manor

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Re: Verstappen, Vettel, Hamilton, Alonso - crash kids

Post by Blinky McSquinty »

Mercedes-Benz wrote:I do not get his logic and people defending him :?
It is almost impossible to defend such driving. He blocks, plain and simple. But most recent champions also exhibited bullying behavior that tested the patience of the stewards and competitors. I don't like it, but I recognize that in this day and age, having zero respect for anyone else and using your car as a weapon is nothing new.

In the last five years many have commented on how newer drivers have shown lack of respect and driven without any regards for the consequences. Now we see it in Verstappen.

Jacques Villeneuve said this in 2012.

"They weren’t racers at 12 years old being told all their life and the financing there in place for them to race, they had to sweat for it, they weren’t little daddy’s boys like you have now basically."
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Re: Verstappen, Vettel, Hamilton, Alonso - crash kids

Post by LKS1 »

Remmirath wrote:
GingerFurball wrote:Nah, Verstappen got away with driving like an absolute dick today.

He's getting away with it because he's up against experienced campaigners who know better than to crash into someone to prove a point, but at some point someone on the grid isn't going to yield to his rubbish and there's going to be a massive accident.

He has some serious refining to do with his defending technique. Two of the most memorable overtakes in recent history - Alonso on Schumacher at 130R and Webber on Alonso in Eau Rouge were made possible because of the conduct of the defending driver and because the attacker knew that he could trust the defender not to do something ridiculous. I dread to think what might have happened if either of those moves had been attempted on Max 'I drive how I want' Verstappen.
I couldn't agree more. Hard but fair racing is one thing, but crossing the line into dangerous racing is another, and Verstappen definitley did that today. I would say that he has a few times in the past as well, but today as very obvious. The stewards really need to actually penalise him for it at some point, or it seems he's just going to keep believing that he's done nothing at all wrong. It's actually a bit frustrating to watch, because he is very quick, and sometimes he pulls off genuinely gutsy and exciting moves -- but then he goes and weaves in the braking zone or on a straight, or runs someone off the track, and still manages to get away with it. Assuming he can get past all this, I do think that he's probably got a great career ahead of him, but the sooner he cleans up his driving the better.
:thumbup:

I suspect he'll only re-consider his driving when he has his own 'Lewis/Massa 2011 season'.

Edit - Perhaps we'll have a similar Kimi/Max remainder of the season 8O ! But I doubt it, as I can't see Kimi bearing a grudge in the same way.

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Re: Verstappen, Vettel, Hamilton, Alonso - crash kids

Post by paul_gmb »

LKS1 wrote:
Remmirath wrote:
GingerFurball wrote:Nah, Verstappen got away with driving like an absolute dick today.

He's getting away with it because he's up against experienced campaigners who know better than to crash into someone to prove a point, but at some point someone on the grid isn't going to yield to his rubbish and there's going to be a massive accident.

He has some serious refining to do with his defending technique. Two of the most memorable overtakes in recent history - Alonso on Schumacher at 130R and Webber on Alonso in Eau Rouge were made possible because of the conduct of the defending driver and because the attacker knew that he could trust the defender not to do something ridiculous. I dread to think what might have happened if either of those moves had been attempted on Max 'I drive how I want' Verstappen.
I couldn't agree more. Hard but fair racing is one thing, but crossing the line into dangerous racing is another, and Verstappen definitley did that today. I would say that he has a few times in the past as well, but today as very obvious. The stewards really need to actually penalise him for it at some point, or it seems he's just going to keep believing that he's done nothing at all wrong. It's actually a bit frustrating to watch, because he is very quick, and sometimes he pulls off genuinely gutsy and exciting moves -- but then he goes and weaves in the braking zone or on a straight, or runs someone off the track, and still manages to get away with it. Assuming he can get past all this, I do think that he's probably got a great career ahead of him, but the sooner he cleans up his driving the better.
:thumbup:

I suspect he'll only re-consider his driving when he has his own 'Lewis/Massa 2011 season'.

Edit - Perhaps we'll have a similar Kimi/Max remainder of the season 8O ! But I doubt it, as I can't see Kimi bearing a grudge in the same way.
he's a great racing driver. He will definatelly calm down and use his tactics in a constructive manner. Let's just hope he doesn't cause a massive incident in the meantime.

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Re: Verstappen, Vettel, Hamilton, Alonso - crash kids

Post by funkymonkey »

As much as I like this new kid Verstappen, I though the would be given black flag yesterday. That was some stupid fairy cakes to pull, specially on this circuit and the place where he did it. That was downright dangerous. A less driver would have crashed into him at that point. Kimi may not be as fast as he used to be, but his experience avoided a major accident yesterday.

I am pretty sure Max is future of the sport, but he needed a slap on the wrist yesterday. We do not want a next Grosjean or Maldonado. Grosjean has improved a lot after he got that tight slap on the wrist after Alonso incident. Max needed something like that yesterday.

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Re: Verstappen, Vettel, Hamilton, Alonso - crash kids

Post by Zoue »

ReservoirDog wrote:
Zoue wrote:
ReservoirDog wrote:
Zoue wrote:The future's a tombstone if he keeps playing chicken with people.
Just like it was for Hamilton and Vettel? Like I said, people love being drama queens.
and others love being in denial. it's not simply aggressive driving, but IMO it's dangerous driving. In two races now he's made what I feel are very dangerous moves in defending against the car behind. And he doesn't appear to think he's doing anything wrong. When he tries it against a less competent or experienced driver it will end in tears
What denial? I am in denial of hypothetical BS scenarios? Some denial, innit? Why not talk actual facts. I have heard it all before and it has never panned out how drama queens envision it. You seem to be living in coulda woulda shoulda land.
No, I'm living in a land where people can recognise the difference between racing hard and racing dangerously. IMO, and the opinion of a fair few others, it seems, Max has crossed the line to the latter. You getting on your high horse and insulting other posters by calling them drama queens simply because they are concerned about where this is heading doesn't change that.

As for you hearing it all before and saying how it's never panned out, I call BS on that. You don't even have to go back that far to find an example. People were complaining about Grosjean long before he had that horrendous accident at Spa in 2012. It's perfectly legitimate to be concerned

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Re: Verstappen, Vettel, Hamilton, Alonso - crash kids

Post by GingerFurball »

I can't believe Verstappen is moaning about the Ferraris ruining his race. The only one to blame is Verstappen for getting frustrated at a bad start and diving for a gap that didn't exist.

The way he ran Perez off the track at Les Combes was deplorable as well, how he avoided a penalty for forcing another driver off the track is beyond me.

Ennis
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Re: Verstappen, Vettel, Hamilton, Alonso - crash kids

Post by Ennis »

GingerFurball wrote:I can't believe Verstappen is moaning about the Ferraris ruining his race. The only one to blame is Verstappen for getting frustrated at a bad start and diving for a gap that didn't exist.

The way he ran Perez off the track at Les Combes was deplorable as well, how he avoided a penalty for forcing another driver off the track is beyond me.
The gap did exist. He did mess up with that suicide defensive move on Kimi, that doesn't detract from his move in to T1 being fine.

Vettel had no idea he was there and turned in, causing the collision. I'm also not entirely wanting to say this is Vettel's fault either though, there's a reason stewards are more leniant re: incidents on the first corner. There's too much going on at once and accidents will happen.

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Re: Verstappen, Vettel, Hamilton, Alonso - crash kids

Post by LKS1 »

Ennis wrote:
GingerFurball wrote:I can't believe Verstappen is moaning about the Ferraris ruining his race. The only one to blame is Verstappen for getting frustrated at a bad start and diving for a gap that didn't exist.

The way he ran Perez off the track at Les Combes was deplorable as well, how he avoided a penalty for forcing another driver off the track is beyond me.
The gap did exist. He did mess up with that suicide defensive move on Kimi, that doesn't detract from his move in to T1 being fine.

Vettel had no idea he was there and turned in, causing the collision. I'm also not entirely wanting to say this is Vettel's fault either though, there's a reason stewards are more leniant re: incidents on the first corner. There's too much going on at once and accidents will happen.
The first lap 'gap' was a dive that was likely to result in a collision. But I can understand the stewards treating this as a 'first lap incident'.

Seb didn't see it coming, and Kimi had nowhere to go once Seb moved across him - with Max diving (off track?) into the minimal space in an attempt to regain the positions lost.

On the other hand, there's no excuse for the stewards' ignoring Max's downright dangerous moves. And not even an 'investigation'?

Fingers crossed, the stewards will be removed and not allowed to steward in the Spa race next season.

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Re: Verstappen, Vettel, Hamilton, Alonso - crash kids

Post by GingerFurball »

Nah come off it, throwing one up the inside from that far back is only ever going to result in losing the front wing. Max was brainless at the start.

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Re: Verstappen, Vettel, Hamilton, Alonso - crash kids

Post by LKS1 »

GingerFurball wrote:Nah come off it, throwing one up the inside from that far back is only ever going to result in losing the front wing. Max was brainless at the start.
I agree, but these way over aggressive moves are pretty much always ignored on the first lap.

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Re: Verstappen, Vettel, Hamilton, Alonso - crash kids

Post by GingerFurball »

LKS1 wrote:
GingerFurball wrote:Nah come off it, throwing one up the inside from that far back is only ever going to result in losing the front wing. Max was brainless at the start.
I agree, but these way over aggressive moves are pretty much always ignored on the first lap.
Yeah I'm fine with it not being penalised (losing half your front wing and having your race f*cked is punishment enough), I was reacting to someone else who's claiming a gap existed.

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Re: Verstappen, Vettel, Hamilton, Alonso - crash kids

Post by chetan_rao »

http://www.bbc.com/sport/formula1/37210411
Verstappen rejected suggestions he needed to rethink his tactics.
"To be honest, it's a big lie," the 18-year-old said. "I'm just defending my position and if somebody doesn't like it, it's his own problem."
Verstappen's team boss Christian Horner said: "It was firm, it was on the edge. He got away with it. I'm sure he'll have a good look at it and maybe learn a bit for future races."
Mercedes F1 boss Toto Wolff said Verstappen's driving was "refreshing but it's dangerous".

"He comes in here no fear, no respect, puts the elbows out," Wolff said.

"He reminds me of the great ones, of Lewis [Hamilton], of Ayrton Senna and you can clearly see some guys around are starting to think twice how to overtake him.

"Until now, all that has proven he is on the right track. The FIA has not penalised him. The only thing that has happened is that he was being given a hard time in some driver briefing.

"Maybe he is going to get a harder time in the next driver briefing. I just fear it might end up in the wall heavily one day."
I find Toto's comments the worst. 'Senna did it so it's fair game for anyone wanting to be world-class' is a horrible argument if I ever saw one.

As to Horner, wasn't he calling for Rosberg to be investigated for the double-yellows situation in Hungary on safety grounds? I wonder whether he'll cry foul on safety grounds again and call for an investigation if someone refuses to yield to Max in a future race and punts him off the track, or will he just chalk it up to 'on the edge' but 'got away with it'?

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hittheapex
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Re: Verstappen, Vettel, Hamilton, Alonso - crash kids

Post by hittheapex »

The reactive rather than proactive attitude of the stewarding is the worry. Verstappen's block on Raikkonen on the straight is the type of thing you expect in a video game, not in real life when there is no "restart" option when your car flies through the air.

Grosjean was punished after causing a serious crash. Maldonado was given the same penalty as he would have got for changing an engine, despite deliberately running into drivers not once, but twice. Hamilton in Spa and then Perez in Monaco the following year.

There is a world of difference between crashing in the braking zone where most overtaking moves had to be made, at a significantly lower speed with more run off, when we had relatively equal engines and no DRS, and what Verstappen did yesterday. If they had touched, they had nowhere to go but into the barriers or the fence. Senna did similar things, such as with Prost at Estoril in 1988. It was really down to luck that Senna nor Verstappen sent a car flying through the air like Patrese in 1992 or Webber in 2010.

Most incidents in braking zones and corners are racing incidents and part of the sport. Swerving that late should not be. This needs to be knocked on the head before Monza. Moving the same way as a driver slipstreaming can happen from time to time by chance, but Verstappen clearly moved after Raikkonen was committed. Schumacher was punished after moving over on Rubens at Hungary in 2010, if Verstappen doesn't even get a reprimand on his licence when those can be notched up for procedural errors in parc ferme, it's a joke.
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ozrevhead
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Re: Verstappen, Vettel, Hamilton, Alonso - crash kids

Post by ozrevhead »

I never thought Vettle Hamilton or Alonso to be "dangerous" to be honest however I do with Verstsppen

Racing is a dangerous sport but it's shouldnt be because of senseless, brainless idiotic dangerous driving. He as lucky it was against experienced drivers who need to see the big picture and willing to pull out and try next time. Verstsppen won't be so lucky when he pulls a stunt like that against a driver who is inexperienced or desperate fo that position

Either he matures and does become the next champ in or he doesn't and ends up like another Maldonado - maybe even worse.

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Re: Verstappen, Vettel, Hamilton, Alonso - crash kids

Post by Blinky McSquinty »

Andy2402 wrote:
Blinky McSquinty wrote:For many champions from the last 30 years, most were characterized by being aggressive bullies on the track. If it wasn't Senna or Schumacher, it was Vettel and Hamilton. Good guys finish last, and each of the drivers mentioned above have informed all of the other drivers ... "don't mess with me, I won't back down".

It is not cricket, and their conduct in the car falls short of any pretense of fair sportsmanship. Because this is Formula One where the strong feed off the bones of the weak, where millions of dollars are at stake, one must be ruthless to attain titles.

They must be willing to do whatever it takes to win, often pushing the boundaries and occasionally running afoul of the officials. This is how they learn the limits, what they can or can not get away with.

Yes, I'm a fan of Max Verstappen, and yes, he was a complete dick today at Spa. But he is driving in this way, not giving anything and taking when he can. There will be races like today when it can be considered a disaster. But team principals like these kinds of drivers. They know those kinds of drivers will mature and learn the ropes, and in a few years, become the type of drivers who win titles.

Many fans fail to contemplate the big picture, and the long picture. Some may complain that "so and so" should be banned for life because of one bad race. But teams think many years into the future. In the example of Red Bull, they know that the Mercedes dominance will fade, and then they will have a good car and a driver definitely mature and ready to wage war.

Understand this: on the track there is no sportsmanship or respect.
I understand what your saying about the sportsmanship, the grit and take no prisoners push the boundaries approach that teams want in drivers a la Senna Schumacher etc. Teams will look at the bigger picture in terms of his potential capability once refined. However I think the point most people are making is there's pushing the boundaries and there is seriously dangerous moves. In the short term there is concern over drover safety and he is going to get shunted off into a barrier at 200mph. Which nobody wants to see. He might survive and learn his lesson, he might die as well. That's not even talking about the other drivers in any potential incident.

However saying that, he is well within his rights currently to carry out these moves , Charlie vindicated his moves a few races ago on kimi , even referring to the lack of a distinct regulation around that movement, it seems more a gentleman's agreement.

If the status quo remains we can expect other drivers to start doing this, and the stewards will have an absolute nightmare deciding what was "on the line" and what was a step too far. Far easier to just clarify it's not allowed. I'm sure verstappen is good enough to find alternative methods

On a side note for me how blocked ie didn't attempt the normal line 2 other drivers at the turn following the straight and there was nothing said . I'm not as bothered about these 2 moves I'd actually allow them to some extent. But if we look at all max actions at spa and compare it to Rosberg's "block" pass on him a couple of races ago to which rosberg received a penalty it just doesn't seem right

Re the original poster, drivers make mistakes, more likely those drivers with that edge and competitive streak. It's not surprising in their rookie years or when in a less competitive car they have collisions. I'd only label somebody a crash kid if that continued each Year, even after promotion into a front team .

I'm sure Hamilton rosberg vettel etc would have had more collisions this year if they were driving a manor
I respect your position and what you say makes sense. But both Senna and Schumacher are considered giants of their respective eras. And both of them were well know for their dangerous driving and using their cars as weapons. Not questionable, but definitely dangerous. I do not condone such driving, but I understand that to be a champion, one of the more likely methods is to be a dangerous bully.

The inconsistent enforcement of the regulations is something I definitely believe is a common occurrence. It is a cancer on this sport deeply ingrained into it's fabric. When you have different stewards, guest stewards, and the sordid politics of Formula one, consistency is just a fantasy.
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Re: Verstappen, Vettel, Hamilton, Alonso - crash kids

Post by ReservoirDog »

Zoue wrote:
ReservoirDog wrote:
Zoue wrote:
ReservoirDog wrote:
Zoue wrote:The future's a tombstone if he keeps playing chicken with people.
Just like it was for Hamilton and Vettel? Like I said, people love being drama queens.
and others love being in denial. it's not simply aggressive driving, but IMO it's dangerous driving. In two races now he's made what I feel are very dangerous moves in defending against the car behind. And he doesn't appear to think he's doing anything wrong. When he tries it against a less competent or experienced driver it will end in tears
What denial? I am in denial of hypothetical BS scenarios? Some denial, innit? Why not talk actual facts. I have heard it all before and it has never panned out how drama queens envision it. You seem to be living in coulda woulda shoulda land.
No, I'm living in a land where people can recognise the difference between racing hard and racing dangerously. IMO, and the opinion of a fair few others, it seems, Max has crossed the line to the latter. You getting on your high horse and insulting other posters by calling them drama queens simply because they are concerned about where this is heading doesn't change that.

As for you hearing it all before and saying how it's never panned out, I call BS on that. You don't even have to go back that far to find an example. People were complaining about Grosjean long before he had that horrendous accident at Spa in 2012. It's perfectly legitimate to be concerned
One, you give yourself too much credit.

Two, the comparison with Grosjean makes little sense. He actually caused a lot of crashes at the start and was unaware of his surroundings (something he himself admitted that he has little knowledge of cars around him at the start which results in accidents). He didn't stop crashing and ruining races until slapped with a ban. He was, and still is, a decidedly mediocre driver. That is unlike Verstappen who takes racing to the edge with complete knowledge of what he's doing that tends to irk people. A better comparison may be Schumacher. Or, as I said in my OP, Hamilton. Only difference is that LH was aggressive with his offense, while Verstappen is aggressive with his defense.

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Re: Verstappen, Vettel, Hamilton, Alonso - crash kids

Post by nixxxon »

Alonso? Please show me all the crashes alonso caused in his career battling with someone. He's one of the cleanest champions ever.

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Re: Verstappen, Vettel, Hamilton, Alonso - crash kids

Post by Blinky McSquinty »

nixxxon wrote:Alonso? Please show me all the crashes alonso caused in his career battling with someone. He's one of the cleanest champions ever.
This is something that I also do not agree with. I consider Alonso one of the few drivers you can trust to race hard with. He is among such clean drivers like Raikkonen, Button, and Hulkenberg.
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