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rodH wrote:He is one of my favorite all time racers, but I still can't wrap my head around why he did so poorly in F1. I know the obvious answer is that he came to a more difficult series (F1) from a lesser series (CART) with more talented drivers. And on the surface that makes sense, but as you really start to dive into the topic of what makes a successful F1 driver, a good car/team is EXTREMELY important. (look how Michael did with his come back, Vettel, Alonso, Button, etc...). In some ways I think that CART racing may be a more accurate indicator regarding how good the driver is/was in relation to other CART drivers, since there are typically only 1-2 engines, 1-2 chassis and the parity is MUCH closer than F1. Do we really believe that Hamilton is 2 seconds faster than Massa, Hulkenberg, Alonso or Button? That being said, Alex dominated for so many races, against guys that are pretty good racers and very similar equipment.

For some reason, I kind of wonder if it was a bad match for his driving ability and the F1 car. Some people say he drove too hard and you can't push the F1 car like you can a CART car. I never understood that, but as I have been racing Karts over the past few years, you realize that some chassis you are actually faster in if you drive 90% (Tony Kart).

This is a topic that you just can't talk to an average sports fan and have a dialogue, so I pose this question to the enthusiasts. What do you think the reason(s) Alex didn't perform as well in F1 as CART or even close to it?

I look forward to your opinions and replies.

rodH wrote:He is one of my favorite all time racers, but I still can't wrap my head around why he did so poorly in F1. I know the obvious answer is that he came to a more difficult series (F1) from a lesser series (CART) with more talented drivers.

moby wrote:

rodH wrote:He is one of my favorite all time racers, but I still can't wrap my head around why he did so poorly in F1. I know the obvious answer is that he came to a more difficult series (F1) from a lesser series (CART) with more talented drivers. And on the surface that makes sense, but as you really start to dive into the topic of what makes a successful F1 driver, a good car/team is EXTREMELY important. (look how Michael did with his come back, Vettel, Alonso, Button, etc...). In some ways I think that CART racing may be a more accurate indicator regarding how good the driver is/was in relation to other CART drivers, since there are typically only 1-2 engines, 1-2 chassis and the parity is MUCH closer than F1. Do we really believe that Hamilton is 2 seconds faster than Massa, Hulkenberg, Alonso or Button? That being said, Alex dominated for so many races, against guys that are pretty good racers and very similar equipment.

For some reason, I kind of wonder if it was a bad match for his driving ability and the F1 car. Some people say he drove too hard and you can't push the F1 car like you can a CART car. I never understood that, but as I have been racing Karts over the past few years, you realize that some chassis you are actually faster in if you drive 90% (Tony Kart).

This is a topic that you just can't talk to an average sports fan and have a dialogue, so I pose this question to the enthusiasts. What do you think the reason(s) Alex didn't perform as well in F1 as CART or even close to it?

I look forward to your opinions and replies.

I just know I am going to get jumped on for saying this, but it is not intended as anything bad against CART, so hold back.

It could be that it is easier to get the best out of a CART car and track than getting the last few 10ths out of a F1 car and track.
You obviously can not judge drivers directly head to head unless they are in the same car, and even in the same team there can be half a second between drivers one week and hundredths the next.

Even if the drivers ability is the same, one may hit a lucky gap and get a better run or catch a car ina bad part of the track, or even get a cloud shadow during their run.

As for the faster at 90%? 90% of what? your ability, the maximum speed of the car, or at the point where you preserve just enough of tyres so that they make the end of their run? Purists would say which ever it is it would need to be 99.9% and as the saying goes, plan the race and race the plan



Blundell and Fabi were in the same series, and were comparable in F1. I actually rated Fabi very highly, although his record was not so good.

Colinjb wrote:An interesting topic. I have always wondered if it was the difference in the rules which led to him being unable/allowed insufficient time to adapt to F1.

F1 had just over a year previously gone from a wide tracked, slick tyred formula to narrow track and grooved tyres. Aerodynamically the cars would be less stable, their grip levels far more inconsistent and varied. CART used wide track cars, ground effect aero and slick tyres. Far more consistent and predictable.

Zanardi drove in F1 at a time initially when the cars were closer to CART in 1991 for Jordan, 1992 for Minardi and 1993 for Lotus. He was ok at the time, scored points for Lotus but was a little overshadowed by his team mates.

He came into a class that would have been alien from somewhere he had clearly developed a niche. I just feel he wasn't adaptable enough to cope. Not to say he wouldn't have been capable in F1, but like some of the existing drivers (Damon Hill springs to mind for some reason.... think he mentioned it once) he simply couldn't get 'into the groove' with the new regulations.

nixxxon wrote:There are levels and levels... Put those other CART drivers and F1 and they much likely would've done worse than Zanardi.
F1 is where the best in the world are, and where good drivers from other series can join and get exposed.

Sebastien Bourdais is another example like Zanardi.

rodH wrote:

nixxxon wrote:There are levels and levels... Put those other CART drivers and F1 and they much likely would've done worse than Zanardi.
F1 is where the best in the world are, and where good drivers from other series can join and get exposed.

Sebastien Bourdais is another example like Zanardi.

And like Zanardi, was the failure due to an inadequate team/car or his ability, or both? F1 places so much on the manuf championship that the cars are not even CLOSE in level. What other series do we see such a large gap between the fastest and slowest cars. As mentioned before, is Hamilton really 2 seconds quicker than Alonso? I think we know the answer.

Sebass also happens to be struggling in CART now that he is back

mikeyg123 wrote:

rodH wrote:

nixxxon wrote:There are levels and levels... Put those other CART drivers and F1 and they much likely would've done worse than Zanardi.
F1 is where the best in the world are, and where good drivers from other series can join and get exposed.

Sebastien Bourdais is another example like Zanardi.

And like Zanardi, was the failure due to an inadequate team/car or his ability, or both? F1 places so much on the manuf championship that the cars are not even CLOSE in level. What other series do we see such a large gap between the fastest and slowest cars. As mentioned before, is Hamilton really 2 seconds quicker than Alonso? I think we know the answer.

Sebass also happens to be struggling in CART now that he is back

Zanardi drove a car capable of multiple podiums on his F1 come back.

bradtheboywonder wrote:

mikeyg123 wrote:

rodH wrote:

nixxxon wrote:There are levels and levels... Put those other CART drivers and F1 and they much likely would've done worse than Zanardi.
F1 is where the best in the world are, and where good drivers from other series can join and get exposed.

Sebastien Bourdais is another example like Zanardi.

And like Zanardi, was the failure due to an inadequate team/car or his ability, or both? F1 places so much on the manuf championship that the cars are not even CLOSE in level. What other series do we see such a large gap between the fastest and slowest cars. As mentioned before, is Hamilton really 2 seconds quicker than Alonso? I think we know the answer.

Sebass also happens to be struggling in CART now that he is back

Zanardi drove a car capable of multiple podiums on his F1 come back.

Ralf drove a car capable of multiple podiums, Alex got the inferior dregs in terms of equipment

mikeyg123 wrote:

bradtheboywonder wrote:

mikeyg123 wrote:

rodH wrote:

nixxxon wrote:There are levels and levels... Put those other CART drivers and F1 and they much likely would've done worse than Zanardi.
F1 is where the best in the world are, and where good drivers from other series can join and get exposed.

Sebastien Bourdais is another example like Zanardi.

And like Zanardi, was the failure due to an inadequate team/car or his ability, or both? F1 places so much on the manuf championship that the cars are not even CLOSE in level. What other series do we see such a large gap between the fastest and slowest cars. As mentioned before, is Hamilton really 2 seconds quicker than Alonso? I think we know the answer.

Sebass also happens to be struggling in CART now that he is back

Zanardi drove a car capable of multiple podiums on his F1 come back.

Ralf drove a car capable of multiple podiums, Alex got the inferior dregs in terms of equipment

Source?

bradtheboywonder wrote:
Based on interviews at the time. I remember BMW asking to have him fired because he kept basing his results on having inferior parts compared to Ralf, and BMW felt that wouldn't be a good look if he kept blaming the parts

mikeyg123 wrote:

bradtheboywonder wrote:
Based on interviews at the time. I remember BMW asking to have him fired because he kept basing his results on having inferior parts compared to Ralf, and BMW felt that wouldn't be a good look if he kept blaming the parts

So did he have inferior parts or not? Surely if that was the concern and he was getting inferior parts BMW could have just given him the same parts as Ralf for 00?

mikeyg123 wrote:

bradtheboywonder wrote:
Williams gave preference to Ralf, so he had the better parts and equipment. I guess if BMW did that, they might have risked putting Ralf offside, so rather than having Alex calling out what the team was doing, they replaced him with Button.

bradtheboywonder wrote:

mikeyg123 wrote:

bradtheboywonder wrote:
Based on interviews at the time. I remember BMW asking to have him fired because he kept basing his results on having inferior parts compared to Ralf, and BMW felt that wouldn't be a good look if he kept blaming the parts

So did he have inferior parts or not? Surely if that was the concern and he was getting inferior parts BMW could have just given him the same parts as Ralf for 00?

mikeyg123 wrote:

bradtheboywonder wrote:
Williams gave preference to Ralf, so he had the better parts and equipment. I guess if BMW did that, they might have risked putting Ralf offside, so rather than having Alex calling out what the team was doing, they replaced him with Button.

bradtheboywonder wrote:Can't answer that one. I'm a Zanardi/CART fanboi so my interest faded once he left the side.

I did enjoy seeing JPM beat Ralf though after the way he treated Alex.

jasonthebadger wrote:I think it was just a case on not being able to quite adapt to an F1 car, Despite Indy and F1's cars looking fairly similar, they are very different beasts to drive and not only that but the tracks are vastly different so an entirely different driving style would be required.

I'm not saying it's impossible to make the transition but i think some just do it better than others, take Bourdais for example. He was one of ( if not ) the best Indy drivers of all time and he just couldn't get the same performace out of an F1 car as he could in an Indy car.

Amon wrote:

jasonthebadger wrote:I think it was just a case on not being able to quite adapt to an F1 car, Despite Indy and F1's cars looking fairly similar, they are very different beasts to drive and not only that but the tracks are vastly different so an entirely different driving style would be required.

I'm not saying it's impossible to make the transition but i think some just do it better than others, take Bourdais for example. He was one of ( if not ) the best Indy drivers of all time and he just couldn't get the same performace out of an F1 car as he could in an Indy car.

Yes another example was Michael Andretti even though he did show potential in the end. Still I think it was the right decision to replace him with Hakkinen.

I wonder if Jacques Villeneuve was the only one being successful in F1 after first being successful in Indy?

jasonthebadger wrote:I think it was just a case on not being able to quite adapt to an F1 car, Despite Indy and F1's cars looking fairly similar, they are very different beasts to drive and not only that but the tracks are vastly different so an entirely different driving style would be required.

I'm not saying it's impossible to make the transition but i think some just do it better than others, take Bourdais for example. He was one of ( if not ) the best Indy drivers of all time and he just couldn't get the same performace out of an F1 car as he could in an Indy car.

bradtheboywonder wrote: An excerpt from Zanardi's book