Vettel's Stock Appears to have Diminished Appreciably

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ElevenTenths
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Vettel's Stock Appears to have Diminished Appreciably

Post by ElevenTenths »

It was not too long ago that many were touting Vettel as the greatest of his generation and an all-time legend. A Sky poll has Vettel ranked at #6 among current drivers behind Verstappen, Magnussen (what?), Alonso and Ricciardo.



http://www.skysports.com/f1/news/12433/ ... e-your-say

Vettel won three times in the second best car of 2015 but so did Ricciardo in 2014. However, Vettel's stock appears to have fallen drastically and I am wondering what is most responsible for it? Or is it a case of a gross miss-perception of his actual ability . Why is Vettel regarded so lowly since both he and Alonso are no longer winning, yet Alonso is still highly regarded. Is Vettel perceived as a lesser driver since 2014 and what does he have to do to restore the high regard in which he was held at the end of 2013?

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Re: Vettel's Stock Appears to have Diminished Appreciably

Post by Zoue »

People are just fickle, that's all. As good as Max is, ranking him 2nd of all the drivers on the grid does seem a little ambitious at the moment, especially when you see where his team mate is. Suggests many voters are simply swayed by recent headlines. Seb would be 3rd in the WDC if not for his issues this year, but because Ferrari has dropped the ball people associate that with him.

KM is a surprise name in there, especially putting him above e.g. Alonso. Trying to think what he's done that's so special but can't see it.

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Re: Vettel's Stock Appears to have Diminished Appreciably

Post by sandman1347 »

Zoue wrote:People are just fickle, that's all. As good as Max is, ranking him 2nd of all the drivers on the grid does seem a little ambitious at the moment, especially when you see where his team mate is. Suggests many voters are simply swayed by recent headlines. Seb would be 3rd in the WDC if not for his issues this year, but because Ferrari has dropped the ball people associate that with him.

KM is a surprise name in there, especially putting him above e.g. Alonso. Trying to think what he's done that's so special but can't see it.
This is very true. Most people don't get into racing as much as the people in this forum do and so the results are mostly indicative of what's happening right at the moment. The results also seem to disregard the realities of the machinery differences to large extent.

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Re: Vettel's Stock Appears to have Diminished Appreciably

Post by mac_d »

Well looking at the list I think you can make an argument the guys above have mostly performed in a more noteworthy manner this season.

1) It's a British website, and Lewis Hamilton has been closing the gap and taking the lead. Between those two factors I'm not surprised he's number 1.
2) Max won a the first race after he got promoted, and he was 18 and however many days at the time. He looks like he is going to be the real deal. So I can see him getting a lot of votes.
3) KMAG - I have no understanding of this one. Not that I think he's been bad or anything, but it's pretty much a reasonably close top 3 then a big drop to #4. I'm a little confused by KMAG.

4) Alonso is Alonso, 4th.
5) Danny Ricciardo takes 5th. Ricciardo is kinda unlucky not to have won a couple of races this year. He capitalised a few years ago and got 3 wins in a season. Plus, related to the likability factor, you can't help but root for him a bit.
6) And Vettel takes 6th.

The only one of those drivers who isn't a race winner and considered a probable future WDC contender (or already has multiple WDC in HAM/ALO) is KMag. I really do find the KMag one odd. If we exclude Kmag then really he's still among the drivers who are probably widely considered the best in F1. All the guys above him (other than KMag imo) have solid logic behind them being above Seb for the season.


Another thing that I think could perhaps come into playI think Vettel rubbed a lot of people the wrong way. And a bit of goodwill goes a long way. I think many people want to think better of those they like and think worse of those they don't. The finger thing. Multi-21. The (either real or perceived) favouritism within RBR. Frankly also his huge amount of success in a relatively short time may have annoyed some people. I remember at Silverstone in 2013 sitting next to a woman who had full on bloodlust for Vettel. She was disappointed when he retired as he didn't crash out. I know this as she was screaming about it. This won't play into every vote of course. Might not even play into many, but I think it would play a part in some.

That's not all it is I'm sure, but I think it may have played a part.

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Re: Vettel's Stock Appears to have Diminished Appreciably

Post by Zoue »

mac_d wrote:Well looking at the list I think you can make an argument the guys above have mostly performed in a more noteworthy manner this season.

1) It's a British website, and Lewis Hamilton has been closing the gap and taking the lead. Between those two factors I'm not surprised he's number 1.
2) Max won a the first race after he got promoted, and he was 18 and however many days at the time. He looks like he is going to be the real deal. So I can see him getting a lot of votes.
3) KMAG - I have no understanding of this one. Not that I think he's been bad or anything, but it's pretty much a reasonably close top 3 then a big drop to #4. I'm a little confused by KMAG.

4) Alonso is Alonso, 4th.
5) Danny Ricciardo takes 5th. Ricciardo is kinda unlucky not to have won a couple of races this year. He capitalised a few years ago and got 3 wins in a season. Plus, related to the likability factor, you can't help but root for him a bit.
6) And Vettel takes 6th.

The only one of those drivers who isn't a race winner and considered a probable future WDC contender (or already has multiple WDC in HAM/ALO) is KMag. I really do find the KMag one odd. If we exclude Kmag then really he's still among the drivers who are probably widely considered the best in F1. All the guys above him (other than KMag imo) have solid logic behind them being above Seb for the season.


Another thing that I think could perhaps come into playI think Vettel rubbed a lot of people the wrong way. And a bit of goodwill goes a long way. I think many people want to think better of those they like and think worse of those they don't. The finger thing. Multi-21. The (either real or perceived) favouritism within RBR. Frankly also his huge amount of success in a relatively short time may have annoyed some people. I remember at Silverstone in 2013 sitting next to a woman who had full on bloodlust for Vettel. She was disappointed when he retired as he didn't crash out. I know this as she was screaming about it. This won't play into every vote of course. Might not even play into many, but I think it would play a part in some.

That's not all it is I'm sure, but I think it may have played a part.
yep would have to agree, also with sandman1347's comment about those voting not necessarily following the sport that closely and voting according to recent headlines

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Re: Vettel's Stock Appears to have Diminished Appreciably

Post by POBRatings »

Agree with all above: many polls are much the same as internet/facebook 'likes' and dislikes'. They are superficial ,emotional responses.
As Mac-d says, much has to do with nationality and perceptions of popularity. Imo the main factor in Alonso's and unpoularity with some fans was 2007. many rate drivers according to personal 'like' or 'dislike'. Witness the many who do not 'like' Hamilton.

This subjective judgement phenomenon is not new in GP racing; towards the end of his career Caracciola (1926-1939) became somewhat grumpy and irritable; consequently some fans downgraded him as a driver. Some well-known Top Driver lists ranked him very low down.

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Re: Vettel's Stock Appears to have Diminished Appreciably

Post by nixxxon »

ElevenTenths wrote:It was not too long ago that many were touting Vettel as the greatest of his generation and an all-time legend. A Sky poll has Vettel ranked at #6 among current drivers behind Verstappen, Magnussen (what?), Alonso and Ricciardo.



http://www.skysports.com/f1/news/12433/ ... e-your-say

Vettel won three times in the second best car of 2015 but so did Ricciardo in 2014. However, Vettel's stock appears to have fallen drastically and I am wondering what is most responsible for it? Or is it a case of a gross miss-perception of his actual ability . Why is Vettel regarded so lowly since both he and Alonso are no longer winning, yet Alonso is still highly regarded. Is Vettel perceived as a lesser driver since 2014 and what does he have to do to restore the high regard in which he was held at the end of 2013?
Well, it is just a poll. Do you take internet polls that seriously?
About Magussen in particular, pretty sure that it has been organized a massive voting for him, probably coming from Denmark.
Maybe the same for Verstappen in a less obvious degree, but the kid is certainly a popular driver right now.
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Re: Vettel's Stock Appears to have Diminished Appreciably

Post by Badgeronimous »

You only need to look on social media groups to see the intellect of people posting votes on things like this, and a few shares on these groups see a favourite driver sky rocket up the rankings.

In the UK social media pretty is intolerable, with love and hate for a certain driver - I've had to leave pretty much every group I've joined due to it being very playground..... I'm unsure if it's the same for other top drivers in their native countries, but its the reason.... I give very little weight to a fan poll.

If you could conduct a poll where voters first had to correctly answer say 3 relatively simple questions about F1 in the last 15yrs in order for their vote to count.... I'd respect the poll a lot more because it would weed out 90% of the junk votes.

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Re: Vettel's Stock Appears to have Diminished Appreciably

Post by moby »

TBH, if it is a British site, and not for those with a real interest in F1, I would not be surprised if if many were nixing up K mag K rickawhateverhis name is. You know the Finish or Swedish one, or what ever he is.

No, I am not kidding, I hear it all the time. (not those specific names, but similar)

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Re: Vettel's Stock Appears to have Diminished Appreciably

Post by Lotus49 »

I'm not sure I put much weight in a poll on Sky Sports, or any poll like that to be honest.

The only poll I found half interesting was the GPDA one from a couple of seasons ago as you had to be an F1 fan to even know it was going to happen and even then not all F1 fans took part but I wouldn't imagine there were many throw away votes as you get on the likes of the Sky poll as it's a bit of an effort to go to just to be "funny".
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Re: Vettel's Stock Appears to have Diminished Appreciably

Post by Exediron »

The results of that poll are frankly bizarre in a number of ways, most notably Magnussen in 3rd, so I wouldn't give them much credence.

That said, Vettel's stock is so volatile I wouldn't touch it with a ten-foot pole. It was enormously inflated during his championship run, and anyone who tried to cast doubt on him as the GOAT was shouted down as a hater; then in 2014, it fell off a cliff, with people calling him a weak driver and saying he'd retire that year. Then in 2015 it shot back up when his joining Ferrari happened to coincide with them finding their best form in years; his shock win in Malaysia helped contribute to the impression that once again he was perhaps a match for the very best on the grid. Fast forward to 2016, and it's back down now that Ferrari aren't as competitive and Kimi is performing better relative to him.

I'd say the current valuation is a little low, but closer to fair price than it was in 2015 or during his championship years. I'd personally say he's clearly one of the top five drivers on the grid (which if you eject KMag is also where the Sky poll puts him, in fact), but after that it's harder to say. It's probably put him at #3 right now, personally, but I can see a solid case for anything between #1 and #5.
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Re: Vettel's Stock Appears to have Diminished Appreciably

Post by Schumacher forever#1 »

Saw that poll a few days ago. People voting for Magnussen were messing around. Heck, even I voted for him! 😂 The poll is a completely useless piece of data. It's not even worth making any conclusions from it at all related to the question.
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Re: Vettel's Stock Appears to have Diminished Appreciably

Post by Amon »

Agree mostly what Exediron says about Seb. Nationality might be a reason too however he is still the highest ranked German driver. Rosberg only in 11th. A consistent driver like Bottas in 14th. And Massa only in 19th behind Ericsson, Haryanto (!) and Kvyat. Nasr in 20th oh dear poor Brazil. The British love only goes to Lewis though as Palmer if the very last. While I don't think he is anything special I think Haryanto should be last.
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Re: Vettel's Stock Appears to have Diminished Appreciably

Post by Jenson's Understeer »

Also worth noting, in terms of how unrepresentative that poll might be: you can vote for every driver if you wish. What's the point in running a poll to determine who people believe to be the best driver if you can vote for more than one?
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Re: Vettel's Stock Appears to have Diminished Appreciably

Post by Amon »

Jenson's Understeer wrote:Also worth noting, in terms of how unrepresentative that poll might be: you can vote for every driver if you wish. What's the point in running a poll to determine who people believe to be the best driver if you can vote for more than one?
Maybe they should restrict driver of the race poll to 1 choice too :o
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Re: Vettel's Stock Appears to have Diminished Appreciably

Post by Blinky McSquinty »

It's as relevant as this ....

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http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2016/02/ ... 043764.jpg

IMO Vettel is just as good as ever. His problem is that he is saddled with a troubled car, in a troubled team, and that robs any driver of any motivation.
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Re: Vettel's Stock Appears to have Diminished Appreciably

Post by ToniWolf »

kinda like the polls on this forum then. I'm actually surprised by this attack on this poll..

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Re: Vettel's Stock Appears to have Diminished Appreciably

Post by mcdo »

Those Sky Sports polls are typically a load of wánk
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Re: Vettel's Stock Appears to have Diminished Appreciably

Post by Blinky McSquinty »

ToniWolf wrote:kinda like the polls on this forum then. I'm actually surprised by this attack on this poll..
It's typical behavior by a person who favors another driver. A quick search on his posts indicates his favoritism. The same old same old, attack and attempt to tear down an opponent of one's favorite.

I actually feel very sorry for those like that, who can not enjoy this wonderful sport to it's fullest, but rather perceive this as one versus another, and negatives are predominant.
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Re: Vettel's Stock Appears to have Diminished Appreciably

Post by kinsella »

Driver comparison for you all -

Vettel or Hakkinen - who do you rate higher?
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Re: Vettel's Stock Appears to have Diminished Appreciably

Post by moby »

The thing is, next year it is back to good grip and high downforce. Just what Vettel likes. I think it would be a mistake to write him off too soon.

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Re: Vettel's Stock Appears to have Diminished Appreciably

Post by pokerman »

moby wrote:The thing is, next year it is back to good grip and high downforce. Just what Vettel likes. I think it would be a mistake to write him off too soon.
That or just basically having the fastest car?
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Re: Vettel's Stock Appears to have Diminished Appreciably

Post by Blinky McSquinty »

pokerman wrote:
moby wrote:The thing is, next year it is back to good grip and high downforce. Just what Vettel likes. I think it would be a mistake to write him off too soon.
That or just basically having the fastest car?
Lewis Hamilton has the fastest car right now, where does that place him in the pecking order? It is possible that two or three years from now Vettel's and Hamilton positions will be reversed (as regards car dominance), does the car change a driver's stock?

Jimmy Clark, a revered Formula One driver constantly placed on the top tier of all time greats, won his two titles in 1963 and 1965. In 1966 he finished 6th in the standings and the next year, 1967 he was 3rd. Does that mean his stock dropped, that all of a sudden he started to suck? Could it be asserted that Jimmy Clark struggled with the new wider tires?
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Re: Vettel's Stock Appears to have Diminished Appreciably

Post by Zoue »

pokerman wrote:
moby wrote:The thing is, next year it is back to good grip and high downforce. Just what Vettel likes. I think it would be a mistake to write him off too soon.
That or just basically having the fastest car?
Good grip and high downforce are a given; Vettel having the fastest car isn't. What is your point with this comment?

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Re: Vettel's Stock Appears to have Diminished Appreciably

Post by Amon »

Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
moby wrote:The thing is, next year it is back to good grip and high downforce. Just what Vettel likes. I think it would be a mistake to write him off too soon.
That or just basically having the fastest car?
Good grip and high downforce are a given; Vettel having the fastest car isn't. What is your point with this comment?
Yes I think any driver would like more grip. That's like saying Vettel is only good when he only needs to worry about driving fast and nothing else.
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Re: Vettel's Stock Appears to have Diminished Appreciably

Post by moby »

Amon wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
moby wrote:The thing is, next year it is back to good grip and high downforce. Just what Vettel likes. I think it would be a mistake to write him off too soon.
That or just basically having the fastest car?
Good grip and high downforce are a given; Vettel having the fastest car isn't. What is your point with this comment?
Yes I think any driver would like more grip. That's like saying Vettel is only good when he only needs to worry about driving fast and nothing else.

Looking back to his Red bull days he seems to like a car on rails, and this year they are not. With the wide tyres and more downforce, he may get more out of what is available. He gets out of corners well and a few KPH extra getting onto a straight is carried all along it.

Some drivers seem to like a loose car and benefit from being able to get a bit of position from slide, Hamilton is one of these. I dont know what effect the new tyres will have on tyre life, but being able to use them more will also suit Vettel. No doubt it will suit others too, but as we are considering Vettel, I have remarked on him

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Re: Vettel's Stock Appears to have Diminished Appreciably

Post by ALESI »

Blinky McSquinty wrote:It's as relevant as this ....

Image
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2016/02/ ... 043764.jpg

IMO Vettel is just as good as ever. His problem is that he is saddled with a troubled car, in a troubled team, and that robs any driver of any motivation.
Whaaaaaaaaaaaaat! You can't talk about 'motivation'... don't you know that compromises everything we know about drivers and the constant performance level they provide, allowing us to compare different drivers at different teams over the entirety of their career!

Be gone with your talk of motivation, all these drivers give 100% all the time or the stats are meaningless. We are talking about (forum) peoples sanity here!
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Re: Vettel's Stock Appears to have Diminished Appreciably

Post by Teddy007 »

Zoue wrote:People are just fickle, that's all. As good as Max is, ranking him 2nd of all the drivers on the grid does seem a little ambitious at the moment, especially when you see where his team mate is. Suggests many voters are simply swayed by recent headlines. Seb would be 3rd in the WDC if not for his issues this year, but because Ferrari has dropped the ball people associate that with him.

KM is a surprise name in there, especially putting him above e.g. Alonso. Trying to think what he's done that's so special but can't see it.
Been saying that for a long time, people are fickle.

I rate drivers on how they perform to their team mates. In my view what diminished Vettels credit was being paired with Ric. In a single year Ric was doing a better job. Shame we couldn't see a second year because one year doesn't always reflect everything.

You look at Lewis being paired with Button, Alonso and Nico. Lewis can on his day beat them consistently but can also lose out.

Look at Seb this year, Kimi seems to have really closed the gap and at times put some great pace in the car.

As for "issues" and luck, that's F1 - it usually balances out over the year and certainly more so in two.

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Re: Vettel's Stock Appears to have Diminished Appreciably

Post by pokerman »

Blinky McSquinty wrote:
pokerman wrote:
moby wrote:The thing is, next year it is back to good grip and high downforce. Just what Vettel likes. I think it would be a mistake to write him off too soon.
That or just basically having the fastest car?
Lewis Hamilton has the fastest car right now, where does that place him in the pecking order? It is possible that two or three years from now Vettel's and Hamilton positions will be reversed (as regards car dominance), does the car change a driver's stock?

Jimmy Clark, a revered Formula One driver constantly placed on the top tier of all time greats, won his two titles in 1963 and 1965. In 1966 he finished 6th in the standings and the next year, 1967 he was 3rd. Does that mean his stock dropped, that all of a sudden he started to suck? Could it be asserted that Jimmy Clark struggled with the new wider tires?
Were did i say that Hamilton was the king of the low grip cars?

The premise here is that Vettel is the king of high grip cars and not that he happened to have the fastest car, do you think if he has the second or third fastest car next year his special talent in driving such cars would make up the difference?
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Re: Vettel's Stock Appears to have Diminished Appreciably

Post by pokerman »

Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
moby wrote:The thing is, next year it is back to good grip and high downforce. Just what Vettel likes. I think it would be a mistake to write him off too soon.
That or just basically having the fastest car?
Good grip and high downforce are a given; Vettel having the fastest car isn't. What is your point with this comment?
The comment that it would suit Vettel in particular presumably based on the 2010-2013 years?

I thought the complicated Hybrid cars were going to suit the more cerebral drivers, the banning of TC was going to show up certain drivers, these things never happened.
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Re: Vettel's Stock Appears to have Diminished Appreciably

Post by pokerman »

moby wrote:
Amon wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
moby wrote:The thing is, next year it is back to good grip and high downforce. Just what Vettel likes. I think it would be a mistake to write him off too soon.
That or just basically having the fastest car?
Good grip and high downforce are a given; Vettel having the fastest car isn't. What is your point with this comment?
Yes I think any driver would like more grip. That's like saying Vettel is only good when he only needs to worry about driving fast and nothing else.

Looking back to his Red bull days he seems to like a car on rails, and this year they are not. With the wide tyres and more downforce, he may get more out of what is available. He gets out of corners well and a few KPH extra getting onto a straight is carried all along it.

Some drivers seem to like a loose car and benefit from being able to get a bit of position from slide, Hamilton is one of these. I dont know what effect the new tyres will have on tyre life, but being able to use them more will also suit Vettel. No doubt it will suit others too, but as we are considering Vettel, I have remarked on him
Were the cars loose and slidey in 2012 when the Hamilton/McLaren combination were overall the fastest car, Hamilton most poles and would have had the most wins easily if not for the car/team letting him down.
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Re: Vettel's Stock Appears to have Diminished Appreciably

Post by mcdo »

pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
moby wrote:The thing is, next year it is back to good grip and high downforce. Just what Vettel likes. I think it would be a mistake to write him off too soon.
That or just basically having the fastest car?
Good grip and high downforce are a given; Vettel having the fastest car isn't. What is your point with this comment?
The comment that it would suit Vettel in particular presumably based on the 2010-2013 years?

I thought the complicated Hybrid cars were going to suit the more cerebral drivers, the banning of TC was going to show up certain drivers, these things never happened.
It took at least one prominent driver a few races to adapt to the banning of traction control
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Re: Vettel's Stock Appears to have Diminished Appreciably

Post by pokerman »

mcdo wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
moby wrote:The thing is, next year it is back to good grip and high downforce. Just what Vettel likes. I think it would be a mistake to write him off too soon.
That or just basically having the fastest car?
Good grip and high downforce are a given; Vettel having the fastest car isn't. What is your point with this comment?
The comment that it would suit Vettel in particular presumably based on the 2010-2013 years?

I thought the complicated Hybrid cars were going to suit the more cerebral drivers, the banning of TC was going to show up certain drivers, these things never happened.
It took at least one prominent driver a few races to adapt to the banning of traction control
That certain driver came within 5 seconds of being the World Champion, had the most poles, most wins, the annihilation by Kimi never happened, you know i've always felt Kimi and Vettel fans had things in common, i believe a few support both?
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Re: Vettel's Stock Appears to have Diminished Appreciably

Post by pokerman »

Zoue wrote:People are just fickle, that's all. As good as Max is, ranking him 2nd of all the drivers on the grid does seem a little ambitious at the moment, especially when you see where his team mate is. Suggests many voters are simply swayed by recent headlines. Seb would be 3rd in the WDC if not for his issues this year, but because Ferrari has dropped the ball people associate that with him.

KM is a surprise name in there, especially putting him above e.g. Alonso. Trying to think what he's done that's so special but can't see it.
Ricciardo has had bad luck as well, stripped of 2 wins for instance due to bad strategy, a puncture whilst leading, would Vettel be leading Ricciardo, have you worked it out?
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Zoue
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Re: Vettel's Stock Appears to have Diminished Appreciably

Post by Zoue »

pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:People are just fickle, that's all. As good as Max is, ranking him 2nd of all the drivers on the grid does seem a little ambitious at the moment, especially when you see where his team mate is. Suggests many voters are simply swayed by recent headlines. Seb would be 3rd in the WDC if not for his issues this year, but because Ferrari has dropped the ball people associate that with him.

KM is a surprise name in there, especially putting him above e.g. Alonso. Trying to think what he's done that's so special but can't see it.
Ricciardo has had bad luck as well, stripped of 2 wins for instance due to bad strategy, a puncture whilst leading, would Vettel be leading Ricciardo, have you worked it out?
Not with every potential permutation, no. But Vettel had a DNS due to mechanical issues when starting 3rd and was taken out by Kvyat in Russia, both when the Ferrari was considered the clear 2nd best car and a podium was likely on the cards. Not to mention Austria where he had a tyre blowout while leading the race. It doesn't alter the point that Seb would be doing significantly better without certain event beyond his control and therefore his public perception in polls like this would no doubt be different.

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Re: Vettel's Stock Appears to have Diminished Appreciably

Post by sandman1347 »

I guess there can never be a thread about Sebastian Vettel without Lewis Hamilton being dragged into it (or vice versa).

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Black_Flag_11
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Re: Vettel's Stock Appears to have Diminished Appreciably

Post by Black_Flag_11 »

I don't think that poll actually shows much change.

Take out Verstappen (I like the guy but anyone can see it's absurd to say he's the 3rd best driver on the grid at this point in his career) and Magnussen which is an organised joke vote and that puts him 4th behind Alonso, Hamilton and Ricciardo. The gap may have opened out a bit but id say that's pretty much how he has been ranked by the majority of people on here for the last 4 or so years (obviously not including Ricciardo until 2014).

As said above people are fickle, run this poll just after Malaysia 2015 and the result may have been different or at least a bit closer, and if he were to win the title with Ferrari next year and a poll was run just after the final race of the season I have little doubt it would change the result also.

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Re: Vettel's Stock Appears to have Diminished Appreciably

Post by Blinky McSquinty »

pokerman wrote:
Blinky McSquinty wrote:
pokerman wrote:
moby wrote:The thing is, next year it is back to good grip and high downforce. Just what Vettel likes. I think it would be a mistake to write him off too soon.
That or just basically having the fastest car?
Lewis Hamilton has the fastest car right now, where does that place him in the pecking order? It is possible that two or three years from now Vettel's and Hamilton positions will be reversed (as regards car dominance), does the car change a driver's stock?

Jimmy Clark, a revered Formula One driver constantly placed on the top tier of all time greats, won his two titles in 1963 and 1965. In 1966 he finished 6th in the standings and the next year, 1967 he was 3rd. Does that mean his stock dropped, that all of a sudden he started to suck? Could it be asserted that Jimmy Clark struggled with the new wider tires?
Were did i say that Hamilton was the king of the low grip cars?

The premise here is that Vettel is the king of high grip cars and not that he happened to have the fastest car, do you think if he has the second or third fastest car next year his special talent in driving such cars would make up the difference?
Please, there is a misunderstanding. High grip, low grip, it doesn't matter only which car is dominant. Vettel enjoyed it for a few years, now it's Hamilton's turn. All I am speculating is that in a few years (as things usually turn out) there will be a change in the pecking order, and IT IS POSSIBLE that Ferrari get to be king of the mountain for awhile.

Personally I do not buy into the theory that Vettel was king of the high grip cars, it is just that he enjoyed his dominance while driving a high grip car. IMO it doesn't matter if he is in a high or low downforce car, his technique states that because of his ability to input the controls so that he gets the car to rotate and pointed in the right direction as planned, he can drive a low or high downforce car very well. Some fans are under the impression that because the Red Bull was aerodynamically superior that the car just stuck to the road surface, and he just went around the corners fast. That is not true, a belief by some who do not understand how to balance the car, how to rotate it, how to set up the corner exit to attain the best overall lap speed.



What I am doing is challenging people to think beyond just immediate yearly results and look at the big picture. I used Jimmy Clark as an example because if some people applied the same logic they are presently using on Vettel, Clark's stock drops after 1965. Which of course, is poppycock.
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Re: Vettel's Stock Appears to have Diminished Appreciably

Post by Chunky »

I'm no fan of Vettel, far from it. But I recognise that his stock has grown, not diminished.

From a situation where he had an ultra dominant car, no permissable in-team competititon and was able to stick in a fast qualy lap then romp away from the front to win some rather unworthy titles he has improved immensey. He's no longer the crash kid, he's now capable of making the odd overtake or two and doesn't have an unshakable belief that he's always right and can do no wrong. That particular role has gone to Max.

He's also, as others have said now nowhere near so annoying and smug - either in or recently out of the cockpit. His interviews can be thoughtful, realistic, modest, even entertaining.

A sugar daddy and a sense of entielment are bad for one, a bit of struggle and exposure to a wider field of view helps develop a bit of humility and it's good for the soul. Getting handed a big can of whupass by Dan R has been good for him at the same time as giving us non-fans a nice warm feeling. I doubt I'll ever be a fan but at least I don't want to punch his face on the screen any more.


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Re: Vettel's Stock Appears to have Diminished Appreciably

Post by Dade77 »

pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
moby wrote:The thing is, next year it is back to good grip and high downforce. Just what Vettel likes. I think it would be a mistake to write him off too soon.
That or just basically having the fastest car?
Good grip and high downforce are a given; Vettel having the fastest car isn't. What is your point with this comment?
The comment that it would suit Vettel in particular presumably based on the 2010-2013 years?

I thought the complicated Hybrid cars were going to suit the more cerebral drivers, the banning of TC was going to show up certain drivers, these things never happened.
Maybe they did, who knows?

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