Vettel's Stock Appears to have Diminished Appreciably

Forum rules
Please read the forum rules
ElevenTenths
Posts: 644
Joined: Sat Aug 07, 2004 3:29 pm

Re: Vettel's Stock Appears to have Diminished Appreciably

Post by ElevenTenths »

Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
aice wrote:I certainly agree that a driver’s entire career or status, shouldn’t be judged on one bad season.

But why is Vettel's 2014 judged a little more harshly?

In my view, it's fairly simple. Putting it bluntly, it’s all to do with the calibre of Vettel’s team mates. The one time Vettel gets paired with the nearest thing to a tier 1 team mate (Ric), Vettel gets beaten in every measurable way. Lewis got beat in 2011 having already faced, and done well, against in prime, tier 1 team mates (Alonso and even Button). Lewis then proves in 2012, that being beaten was indeed a one-off. We never got to see a Vet v Ric re-match so naturally, the doubts remain.

That's my take on it.
It's an interesting one, as Webber is usually judged because of how he was beaten by Seb. Before then he was fairly well regarded. So did Seb beat him because he was rubbish, or did Seb indeed beat a top driver ?
Webber was well regarded but he wasn't seen as a tier 1 driver.



Neither is Rosberg, generally speaking, but that doesn;t seem to have harmed Lewis' reputation any


Why should it when (1) Rosberg handily beat Schumacher over 3 years and (2) Rosberg is allowed to race Hamilton as an equal. Not quite the same comparison.

ElevenTenths
Posts: 644
Joined: Sat Aug 07, 2004 3:29 pm

Re: Vettel's Stock Appears to have Diminished Appreciably

Post by ElevenTenths »

Kev627 wrote:Apologies if it has been mentioned before but did Schumachers Mercedes years damage his stock?
Of course it did! It confirmed his weakness and inability to compete on an equal footing with a teammate. Many thought he should never have returned because the Mercedes years tarnished his perceived invincibility as a driver. That invincibility was due mainly to the way Ferrari choose to run their team. Rosberg could have duplicated that invincibility if he too were aided and abetted by a #2 driver at Mercedes - we would all be clamoring now about his "perceived" greatness. Schumacher's record prior to Mercedes always has to be taken in context - a great driver, winning for the most part in the best cars, but sometimes being handed victories, and at Ferrari, never having won a championship on an equal footing with his teammates. Vettel, to his credit might not have been challenged by a strong teammate at RB where Webber was clearly a #2, but he was never handed victories.

I have no doubt, Vettel and Schumacher would have still beaten those teammates without their #1 status in the team, but I always question whether they would have won as many races and therefore WDC's.

User avatar
Blake
Posts: 6820
Joined: Mon Oct 21, 2002 4:12 pm
Location: Nebraska, USA
Contact:

Re: Vettel's Stock Appears to have Diminished Appreciably

Post by Blake »

eleventenths,

As I stated earlier, his "stock" is only damaged in the minds of those who do not know F1, or are "johnny come lately" to the sport. In your post, I feel that you have come across as both.

Schumi's return to F1 was after a three year hiatus and of course as three years older. Few, if any, expected Schumacher to come back and dominate, it would have been an unreasonable expectation. Let us see where Lewis and Seb are at that point of their lives... age 41-43. So you think that a return to competive racing in F1 at that age suggests that his earlier accomplishments are suspect? How convenient for you.

Your casual dismissal of his championship years for reasons of great car, gifted victories and #1 status is to be ignorant of the skills of Michael Schumacher. Did you really ever see him race during his Ferrari years, or in the Benetton days? I seriously doubt it. You make far too much out of the "equal footing" aspect, as there was no one equal to Schumacher on Ferrari to be at that status, but then there was no one equal to Schumi in F1 period in those days... except perhaps Alonso at the end of Shumi's 1st F1 career. Schumacher won against his teammate, with a couple of exceptions, because he was the better driver... that is how you earn top status. Had Rubens started a season dominating Schumi, then they would have gotten behind Rubens for the WDC.

You can always question his "stock"... it is your right. I suspect that most knowledgeable F1 fans will not agree.
Forza Ferrari
WCCs = 16
WDCs = 15

pokerman
Posts: 36626
Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm

Re: Vettel's Stock Appears to have Diminished Appreciably

Post by pokerman »

Kev627 wrote:Apologies if it has been mentioned before but did Schumachers Mercedes years damage his stock?
I think people viewed it as being different drivers, Schumacher mk1 and Schumacher mk11.
Lewis Hamilton #44

World Drivers Titles: 7 (1st)
Grand Prix Wins: 96 (1st)
Pole Positions: 98 (1st)
Podiums: 166 (1st)


PF1 Pick 10 Competition
2014: Champion

pokerman
Posts: 36626
Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm

Re: Vettel's Stock Appears to have Diminished Appreciably

Post by pokerman »

tootsie323 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Is that factual? Is this list regarded as the definitive ranking of drivers. Or is it possible different people rated drivers differently?
It's a general opinion at that time what more can you have?
Yes.
Actually, a bit of misinterpretation on my part. In terms of ranking according to f1fanatic, the ranking of Hamilton did indeed drop after 2011 or as you stated, he had a downgrade. That is a fact.
My mistake; I interpreted your bolded startement more in terms of subjective ranking compared to hard data.
Yeah I used the site because it was the only source I could find, but then Hamilton seemingly bounces straight back the following season which sort of then goes against what i was saying?

I strangely got accused in another thread I believe of being influenced by the car itself but in comparison to most other people that's clearly not the case, the top 10 rankings on here for last year were:-

01. Vettel
02. Hamilton
03. Rosberg
04. Verstappen
05. Ricciardo
06. Perez
07. Bottas
08. Kvyat
09. Button
10. Alonso

I had both McLaren drivers in the top 6, I think I have to take on board that I think differently to most people and my rankings are less influenced by the car itself.
Lewis Hamilton #44

World Drivers Titles: 7 (1st)
Grand Prix Wins: 96 (1st)
Pole Positions: 98 (1st)
Podiums: 166 (1st)


PF1 Pick 10 Competition
2014: Champion

pokerman
Posts: 36626
Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm

Re: Vettel's Stock Appears to have Diminished Appreciably

Post by pokerman »

mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Is that factual? Is this list regarded as the definitive ranking of drivers. Or is it possible different people rated drivers differently?
It's a general opinion at that time what more can you have?
You tell me. It was you who claimed it was a "fact". I agree that some peoples opinion of Hamilton dropped after 2011. It not a fact though.
I would say that most people's opinion of Hamilton changed.
Lewis Hamilton #44

World Drivers Titles: 7 (1st)
Grand Prix Wins: 96 (1st)
Pole Positions: 98 (1st)
Podiums: 166 (1st)


PF1 Pick 10 Competition
2014: Champion

User avatar
Badgeronimous
Posts: 949
Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2012 11:57 am
Location: Aberdeen, Scotland

Re: Vettel's Stock Appears to have Diminished Appreciably

Post by Badgeronimous »

Few sportsmen maintain top form for a period of longer than 5yrs, and few go through a career without hitting a dip of some sorts. Sometimes, somebody who was usually pretty average, steps up and has an outstanding season, sometimes a good player changes teams and it goes pear shaped - and of course, father time beats everyone in the end.

F1 drivers are not immune to these things. People read too much into a form dip, bad season, great season or getting old.

User avatar
moby
Posts: 8072
Joined: Sat Aug 09, 2008 9:22 pm

Re: Vettel's Stock Appears to have Diminished Appreciably

Post by moby »

Badgeronimous wrote:Few sportsmen maintain top form for a period of longer than 5yrs, and few go through a career without hitting a dip of some sorts. Sometimes, somebody who was usually pretty average, steps up and has an outstanding season, sometimes a good player changes teams and it goes pear shaped - and of course, father time beats everyone in the end.

F1 drivers are not immune to these things. People read too much into a form dip, bad season, great season or getting old.
And, as I believe was the case with Seb, they lose interest. If the heart is not in it, the game suffers.

Teddy007
Posts: 1079
Joined: Fri Nov 09, 2012 2:54 pm
Contact:

Re: Vettel's Stock Appears to have Diminished Appreciably

Post by Teddy007 »

ElevenTenths wrote: It's an interesting one, as Webber is usually judged because of how he was beaten by Seb. Before then he was fairly well regarded. So did Seb beat him because he was rubbish, or did Seb indeed beat a top driver ?
Webber was well regarded but he wasn't seen as a tier 1 driver.[/quote]

Neither is Rosberg, generally speaking, but that doesn;t seem to have harmed Lewis' reputation any[/quote]
Why should it when (1) Rosberg handily beat Schumacher over 3 years and (2) Rosberg is allowed to race Hamilton as an equal. Not quite the same comparison.[/quote]

Thing is, Webber isn't regarded as top tier because Seb walked away with multiple championships and outside of the first one - it looked really easy. Very different comparisons: Seb wins a championship and who is his closest rival? NOT his team mate.

2011 - 2nd Jenson Button - Sebs team mate Webber in the same machinery finished 3rd. Likewise for Lewis comparisons with Button, Lewis finished 5th.
Quali - 15 vs 3 in Sebs favour.
2012 - 2nd Fernando Alonso - Sebs team mate Webber again finished 6th.
Quali - 6 vs 2 in Sebs favour.
2013 - 2nd Fernando Alonso - Sebs team mate Webber again finished 3rd.
Quali - 9 vs 2 in Sebs favour.

2014 - A change, Seb finished 6th and his team mate Ric - finished 3rd.

Like I said, very different comparisons. Vettel consistently would qualify 1st and Webber... I'm a fan of Webber but I cant help admit that preferential treatment or not.. I wouldn't have ever placed my bet on him out qualifying Seb unless reliability had kicked in.

Look at Ham/Ros - Rosberg is very very close to Lewis even if he doesn't win. He is Lewis's rival in every season plus Lewis's qualifying has by no means been a whitewash.
2014: 7 vs 11 in favour of Nico.
2015: 11 vs 7 in favour of Lewis.
2016: 6 vs 5 in favour of Lewis.

As mentioned, I wouldn't bet on Lewis qualifying first unless he had been dominating all weekend by far. The gap between these two is much smaller and Lewis winning is no guarantee.

Personally I had hoped Seb would stay at RBR another year to see how him and Ric would have done for a second year. Luck plays it's part in F1 like any sport but at the end of the day you have to make it work.

At the end, do I rate Webber as good as Nico/Lewis/Seb/Ric No I don't.

So as I said at the start - no comparisons with Webber/Seb and Nico/Lewis.

User avatar
Badgeronimous
Posts: 949
Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2012 11:57 am
Location: Aberdeen, Scotland

Re: Vettel's Stock Appears to have Diminished Appreciably

Post by Badgeronimous »

I think all drivers go through phases where nothing goes particularly right, maybe partly through their own fault, partly due to circumstances.. and well, it maybe feels like they are running through treacle trying to catch some momentum.

Hamiltons used a good analogy with catching a wave. When it's going well - you've got to capitalise, as there will be times where you go on a run where it just doesn't happen. The recent history with the Merc drivers are a great example too.

ALESI
Posts: 2418
Joined: Mon Mar 24, 2003 1:36 pm

Re: Vettel's Stock Appears to have Diminished Appreciably

Post by ALESI »

Badgeronimous wrote:Few sportsmen maintain top form for a period of longer than 5yrs, and few go through a career without hitting a dip of some sorts. Sometimes, somebody who was usually pretty average, steps up and has an outstanding season, sometimes a good player changes teams and it goes pear shaped - and of course, father time beats everyone in the end.

F1 drivers are not immune to these things. People read too much into a form dip, bad season, great season or getting old.
Massa springs to mind, but then the forum goes into overdrive trying anything to justify how he could be in the position to win a WDC, indeed should have won it but for terrible luck and Ferrari being useless.

"But, but... Massa was beaten by Schumacher, and Schumacher beat Barichello and Barichello's dad used to beat Massa's dad at Poker so no way can Massa be WDC!"
Shoot999: "And anyone who puts a Y on the end of his name as a nickname should be punched in the face repeatedly."

User avatar
Randine
Posts: 903
Joined: Sat May 25, 2013 10:54 am
Location: Melbourne Australia

Re: Vettel's Stock Appears to have Diminished Appreciably

Post by Randine »

Teddy007 wrote:
ElevenTenths wrote: It's an interesting one, as Webber is usually judged because of how he was beaten by Seb. Before then he was fairly well regarded. So did Seb beat him because he was rubbish, or did Seb indeed beat a top driver ?
Webber was well regarded but he wasn't seen as a tier 1 driver.



Thing is, Webber isn't regarded as top tier because Seb walked away with multiple championships and outside of the first one - it looked really easy. Very different comparisons: Seb wins a championship and who is his closest rival? NOT his team mate.

2011 - 2nd Jenson Button - Sebs team mate Webber in the same machinery finished 3rd. Likewise for Lewis comparisons with Button, Lewis finished 5th.
Quali - 15 vs 3 in Sebs favour.
2012 - 2nd Fernando Alonso - Sebs team mate Webber again finished 6th.
Quali - 6 vs 2 in Sebs favour.
2013 - 2nd Fernando Alonso - Sebs team mate Webber again finished 3rd.
Quali - 9 vs 2 in Sebs favour.

2014 - A change, Seb finished 6th and his team mate Ric - finished 3rd.

Like I said, very different comparisons. Vettel consistently would qualify 1st and Webber... I'm a fan of Webber but I cant help admit that preferential treatment or not.. I wouldn't have ever placed my bet on him out qualifying Seb unless reliability had kicked in.

Look at Ham/Ros - Rosberg is very very close to Lewis even if he doesn't win. He is Lewis's rival in every season plus Lewis's qualifying has by no means been a whitewash.
2014: 7 vs 11 in favour of Nico.
2015: 11 vs 7 in favour of Lewis.
2016: 6 vs 5 in favour of Lewis.

As mentioned, I wouldn't bet on Lewis qualifying first unless he had been dominating all weekend by far. The gap between these two is much smaller and Lewis winning is no guarantee.

Personally I had hoped Seb would stay at RBR another year to see how him and Ric would have done for a second year. Luck plays it's part in F1 like any sport but at the end of the day you have to make it work.

At the end, do I rate Webber as good as Nico/Lewis/Seb/Ric No I don't.

So as I said at the start - no comparisons with Webber/Seb and Nico/Lewis.
As a generalisation from 2009 to mid way through 2013, Red Bull set up their cars for cornering speed with a lower top speed.
So if you get pole and then get out in front, you are likely to go on to win.
Or if you get stuck in the pack, your aero is compromised and you can't overtake the quicker cars.
This is why Webber's stats aren't great.
Up until Red Bull, he was in poor cars. Up until Seb, he was better than all his team mates.

(mid way through 2013 Red Bull started adjusting their rear wing sizes in higher speed tracks so they could compete with the faster cars. As a result Seb was unbeatable in the 2nd half of 2013)
Dan the man!


Zoue
Posts: 25158
Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2012 10:39 am

Re: Vettel's Stock Appears to have Diminished Appreciably

Post by Zoue »

Teddy007 wrote:
ElevenTenths wrote: Why should it when (1) Rosberg handily beat Schumacher over 3 years and (2) Rosberg is allowed to race Hamilton as an equal. Not quite the same comparison.
Thing is, Webber isn't regarded as top tier because Seb walked away with multiple championships and outside of the first one - it looked really easy. Very different comparisons: Seb wins a championship and who is his closest rival? NOT his team mate.

2011 - 2nd Jenson Button - Sebs team mate Webber in the same machinery finished 3rd. Likewise for Lewis comparisons with Button, Lewis finished 5th.
Quali - 15 vs 3 in Sebs favour.
2012 - 2nd Fernando Alonso - Sebs team mate Webber again finished 6th.
Quali - 6 vs 2 in Sebs favour.
2013 - 2nd Fernando Alonso - Sebs team mate Webber again finished 3rd.
Quali - 9 vs 2 in Sebs favour.

2014 - A change, Seb finished 6th and his team mate Ric - finished 3rd.

Like I said, very different comparisons. Vettel consistently would qualify 1st and Webber... I'm a fan of Webber but I cant help admit that preferential treatment or not.. I wouldn't have ever placed my bet on him out qualifying Seb unless reliability had kicked in.

Look at Ham/Ros - Rosberg is very very close to Lewis even if he doesn't win. He is Lewis's rival in every season plus Lewis's qualifying has by no means been a whitewash.
2014: 7 vs 11 in favour of Nico.
2015: 11 vs 7 in favour of Lewis.
2016: 6 vs 5 in favour of Lewis.

As mentioned, I wouldn't bet on Lewis qualifying first unless he had been dominating all weekend by far. The gap between these two is much smaller and Lewis winning is no guarantee.

Personally I had hoped Seb would stay at RBR another year to see how him and Ric would have done for a second year. Luck plays it's part in F1 like any sport but at the end of the day you have to make it work.

At the end, do I rate Webber as good as Nico/Lewis/Seb/Ric No I don't.

So as I said at the start - no comparisons with Webber/Seb and Nico/Lewis.
I think it can be misleading to form any conclusions from stats. In 2015, there were a number of races where Nico qualified around six tenths down on Lewis: it's only because the Mercedes was head and shoulders above the competition that Nico was able to still qualify alongside his team mate. Without it and Nico would be starting one or two rows back and all of a sudden we wouldn't be talking about how close he is to Lewis.

There were races where Mark was six tenths back, too, and ones where he qualified within a tenth or so. I think the yo-yo effect is more pronounced between Nico and Lewis (Nico could qualify close to, or even ahead of Lewis one weekend and six tenths back the next), but it's hard to tell whether that's down to Nico doing a great job sometimes or Lewis doing a poor one. Certainly, the evidence strongly suggests that Lewis should be beating Nico every time as he's clearly the faster driver. But what evidence do we really have that Nico is better than Webber was?

User avatar
infi24r
Posts: 2203
Joined: Sun Oct 09, 2011 9:41 am

Re: Vettel's Stock Appears to have Diminished Appreciably

Post by infi24r »

I was always surprised how people swept 2014 under the rug when Seb got a weak team mate in Kimi to beat.

I wonder if now the Ferrari honeymoon is over people are getting a more rounded view of his abilities.

User avatar
mcdo
Posts: 10289
Joined: Fri Nov 05, 2010 6:33 pm
Location: Ireland

Re: Vettel's Stock Appears to have Diminished Appreciably

Post by mcdo »

pokerman wrote:You think by finishing 3rd in the second best car catapulted Vettel back up there to the leader of the pack?
pokerman wrote:Yeah I used the site because it was the only source I could find, but then Hamilton seemingly bounces straight back the following season which sort of then goes against what i was saying?

I strangely got accused in another thread I believe of being influenced by the car itself but in comparison to most other people that's clearly not the case, the top 10 rankings on here for last year were:-

01. Vettel
02. Hamilton
03. Rosberg
04. Verstappen
05. Ricciardo
06. Perez
07. Bottas
08. Kvyat
09. Button
10. Alonso

I had both McLaren drivers in the top 6, I think I have to take on board that I think differently to most people and my rankings are less influenced by the car itself.
It seems I wasn't wrong
I don't rely entirely on God
ImageImage
I rely on Prost

FutureF1
Posts: 1
Joined: Mon Jul 11, 2016 12:38 pm

Re: Vettel's Stock Appears to have Diminished Appreciably

Post by FutureF1 »

What I don't understand is how Vettel's ability is questionable while Hamilton is still considered one of the best despite having won 2 of his 3 championships in that best F1 car there's ever been.... LOGIC!

User avatar
Badgeronimous
Posts: 949
Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2012 11:57 am
Location: Aberdeen, Scotland

Re: Vettel's Stock Appears to have Diminished Appreciably

Post by Badgeronimous »

With regards to Vettel v Webber.

I dunno, I think Webber maybe gets underrated. He wasn't too far behind Vettel in 09 and 10, then Pirelli came in and the gap between the young Vettel and aging Webber grew be a couple more tenths.

Vettel mastered how to drive that Red Bull better than Webber. Would the gap have been as big if Red Bill's dominance occurred in the prior era? I don't think it would of been.

pokerman
Posts: 36626
Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm

Re: Vettel's Stock Appears to have Diminished Appreciably

Post by pokerman »

infi24r wrote:I was always surprised how people swept 2014 under the rug when Seb got a weak team mate in Kimi to beat.

I wonder if now the Ferrari honeymoon is over people are getting a more rounded view of his abilities.
Yes indeed but that's what happened.
Lewis Hamilton #44

World Drivers Titles: 7 (1st)
Grand Prix Wins: 96 (1st)
Pole Positions: 98 (1st)
Podiums: 166 (1st)


PF1 Pick 10 Competition
2014: Champion

pokerman
Posts: 36626
Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm

Re: Vettel's Stock Appears to have Diminished Appreciably

Post by pokerman »

mcdo wrote:
pokerman wrote:You think by finishing 3rd in the second best car catapulted Vettel back up there to the leader of the pack?
pokerman wrote:Yeah I used the site because it was the only source I could find, but then Hamilton seemingly bounces straight back the following season which sort of then goes against what i was saying?

I strangely got accused in another thread I believe of being influenced by the car itself but in comparison to most other people that's clearly not the case, the top 10 rankings on here for last year were:-

01. Vettel
02. Hamilton
03. Rosberg
04. Verstappen
05. Ricciardo
06. Perez
07. Bottas
08. Kvyat
09. Button
10. Alonso

I had both McLaren drivers in the top 6, I think I have to take on board that I think differently to most people and my rankings are less influenced by the car itself.
It seems I wasn't wrong
Indeed all it needed was a decent car and a different teammate.
Lewis Hamilton #44

World Drivers Titles: 7 (1st)
Grand Prix Wins: 96 (1st)
Pole Positions: 98 (1st)
Podiums: 166 (1st)


PF1 Pick 10 Competition
2014: Champion

pokerman
Posts: 36626
Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm

Re: Vettel's Stock Appears to have Diminished Appreciably

Post by pokerman »

Badgeronimous wrote:With regards to Vettel v Webber.

I dunno, I think Webber maybe gets underrated. He wasn't too far behind Vettel in 09 and 10, then Pirelli came in and the gap between the young Vettel and aging Webber grew be a couple more tenths.

Vettel mastered how to drive that Red Bull better than Webber. Would the gap have been as big if Red Bill's dominance occurred in the prior era? I don't think it would of been.
I think it was close in 2009 but not really in 2010, Vettel should have won easily.
Lewis Hamilton #44

World Drivers Titles: 7 (1st)
Grand Prix Wins: 96 (1st)
Pole Positions: 98 (1st)
Podiums: 166 (1st)


PF1 Pick 10 Competition
2014: Champion

User avatar
Badgeronimous
Posts: 949
Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2012 11:57 am
Location: Aberdeen, Scotland

Re: Vettel's Stock Appears to have Diminished Appreciably

Post by Badgeronimous »

pokerman wrote:
Badgeronimous wrote:With regards to Vettel v Webber.

I dunno, I think Webber maybe gets underrated. He wasn't too far behind Vettel in 09 and 10, then Pirelli came in and the gap between the young Vettel and aging Webber grew be a couple more tenths.

Vettel mastered how to drive that Red Bull better than Webber. Would the gap have been as big if Red Bill's dominance occurred in the prior era? I don't think it would of been.
I think it was close in 2009 but not really in 2010, Vettel should have won easily.
I do think Vettel is comfortably the better driver, but Webber could (and perhaps should) of won the WDC in 2010. He never really got another shot after that as Vettel took it to another level in the Pirelli era and Webber never again looked, consistently, even close to him.

pokerman
Posts: 36626
Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm

Re: Vettel's Stock Appears to have Diminished Appreciably

Post by pokerman »

Badgeronimous wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Badgeronimous wrote:With regards to Vettel v Webber.

I dunno, I think Webber maybe gets underrated. He wasn't too far behind Vettel in 09 and 10, then Pirelli came in and the gap between the young Vettel and aging Webber grew be a couple more tenths.

Vettel mastered how to drive that Red Bull better than Webber. Would the gap have been as big if Red Bill's dominance occurred in the prior era? I don't think it would of been.
I think it was close in 2009 but not really in 2010, Vettel should have won easily.
I do think Vettel is comfortably the better driver, but Webber could (and perhaps should) of won the WDC in 2010. He never really got another shot after that as Vettel took it to another level in the Pirelli era and Webber never again looked, consistently, even close to him.
He had a chance because of the mistakes and reliability issues for Vettel, ultimately though Webber himself bottled it.
Lewis Hamilton #44

World Drivers Titles: 7 (1st)
Grand Prix Wins: 96 (1st)
Pole Positions: 98 (1st)
Podiums: 166 (1st)


PF1 Pick 10 Competition
2014: Champion

davidheath461
Posts: 2000
Joined: Thu Jun 26, 2014 4:11 pm

Re: Vettel's Stock Appears to have Diminished Appreciably

Post by davidheath461 »

Randine wrote:
Teddy007 wrote:
ElevenTenths wrote: It's an interesting one, as Webber is usually judged because of how he was beaten by Seb. Before then he was fairly well regarded. So did Seb beat him because he was rubbish, or did Seb indeed beat a top driver ?
Webber was well regarded but he wasn't seen as a tier 1 driver.



Thing is, Webber isn't regarded as top tier because Seb walked away with multiple championships and outside of the first one - it looked really easy. Very different comparisons: Seb wins a championship and who is his closest rival? NOT his team mate.

2011 - 2nd Jenson Button - Sebs team mate Webber in the same machinery finished 3rd. Likewise for Lewis comparisons with Button, Lewis finished 5th.
Quali - 15 vs 3 in Sebs favour.
2012 - 2nd Fernando Alonso - Sebs team mate Webber again finished 6th.
Quali - 6 vs 2 in Sebs favour.
2013 - 2nd Fernando Alonso - Sebs team mate Webber again finished 3rd.
Quali - 9 vs 2 in Sebs favour.

2014 - A change, Seb finished 6th and his team mate Ric - finished 3rd.

Like I said, very different comparisons. Vettel consistently would qualify 1st and Webber... I'm a fan of Webber but I cant help admit that preferential treatment or not.. I wouldn't have ever placed my bet on him out qualifying Seb unless reliability had kicked in.

Look at Ham/Ros - Rosberg is very very close to Lewis even if he doesn't win. He is Lewis's rival in every season plus Lewis's qualifying has by no means been a whitewash.
2014: 7 vs 11 in favour of Nico.
2015: 11 vs 7 in favour of Lewis.
2016: 6 vs 5 in favour of Lewis.

As mentioned, I wouldn't bet on Lewis qualifying first unless he had been dominating all weekend by far. The gap between these two is much smaller and Lewis winning is no guarantee.

Personally I had hoped Seb would stay at RBR another year to see how him and Ric would have done for a second year. Luck plays it's part in F1 like any sport but at the end of the day you have to make it work.

At the end, do I rate Webber as good as Nico/Lewis/Seb/Ric No I don't.

So as I said at the start - no comparisons with Webber/Seb and Nico/Lewis.
As a generalisation from 2009 to mid way through 2013, Red Bull set up their cars for cornering speed with a lower top speed.
So if you get pole and then get out in front, you are likely to go on to win.
Or if you get stuck in the pack, your aero is compromised and you can't overtake the quicker cars.
This is why Webber's stats aren't great.
Up until Red Bull, he was in poor cars. Up until Seb, he was better than all his team mates.

(mid way through 2013 Red Bull started adjusting their rear wing sizes in higher speed tracks so they could compete with the faster cars. As a result Seb was unbeatable in the 2nd half of 2013)
This wasn't just in 2013 and wasn't just at the higher speed tracks either. They generated so much downforce from the floor that they could afford to do this.

Red Bull's gearing is what made their top end speed slower, but of course they had the benefit of better accelaration.

davidheath461
Posts: 2000
Joined: Thu Jun 26, 2014 4:11 pm

Re: Vettel's Stock Appears to have Diminished Appreciably

Post by davidheath461 »

pokerman wrote:
infi24r wrote:I was always surprised how people swept 2014 under the rug when Seb got a weak team mate in Kimi to beat.

I wonder if now the Ferrari honeymoon is over people are getting a more rounded view of his abilities.
Yes indeed but that's what happened.
Yep his season so far hasn't been great and alot of his fans seem to put it all down to bad luck. That's only part of the story though.

F1Oz
Posts: 944
Joined: Tue Apr 21, 2009 2:49 am

Re: Vettel's Stock Appears to have Diminished Appreciably

Post by F1Oz »

it's how you do with the machinery you've got - I don't think either Ferrari driver has gone down much given it's clear the Ferrari isn't the top dog this year - although I do think SV hasn't done all he could have this year

User avatar
moby
Posts: 8072
Joined: Sat Aug 09, 2008 9:22 pm

Re: Vettel's Stock Appears to have Diminished Appreciably

Post by moby »

I think Vettel is having "head problems" this year. He has become a drama queen on track, swearing and gesticulating at every one in a rather drama queen way when he should be getting on with racing or driving. He was not like that at Red Bull, his mind was on his job not the media coverage. It may be him, or his surroundings, but he is losing something with this change.

Thinking more on this, could it be Ferrari is more of a blame culture and he wants to be sure they note these things, while RedBull was more, never mind who's fault, just fix it

User avatar
Mercedes-Benz
Posts: 1086
Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2012 8:02 am
Location: India

Re: Vettel's Stock Appears to have Diminished Appreciably

Post by Mercedes-Benz »

Wow, how did Kevin Mag get so many votes 8O also Rio almost got same votes as Kimi :lol:
Sir Stirling Moss "Quite frankly, Kimi Raikkonen is the fastest driver in the world"

optimisteprime
Posts: 139
Joined: Sun Jun 12, 2016 8:02 pm

Re: Vettel's Stock Appears to have Diminished Appreciably

Post by optimisteprime »

Mercedes-Benz wrote:Wow, how did Kevin Mag get so many votes 8O also Rio almost got same votes as Kimi :lol:
I think this just reinforced what we've already learnt this Summer - British people shouldn't be trusted to vote on things.

Alonshow
Posts: 43
Joined: Tue Mar 22, 2016 10:09 pm

Re: Vettel's Stock Appears to have Diminished Appreciably

Post by Alonshow »

There's no point in arguing, guys, democracy has spoken. Haryanto is way better than Rosberg, and that's that. I bet his dismissal from Manor is a secret manoeuvre of Mercedes to hire him in secret to replace Rosberg.

Battle Far
Posts: 547
Joined: Mon Jun 09, 2014 8:26 pm

Re: Vettel's Stock Appears to have Diminished Appreciably

Post by Battle Far »

During my lurking days I seem to remember a poster who got a lot of stick here for his strap line which was something like
Vettel, the youngest driver ever to have the fastest car in F1 for 4 consecutive years
Given Ricciardo and the Ferrari years, seems pretty accurate to me

Similarly IMO, those that put Hamilton on a pedestal are coloured by his domination of Rosberg, who I'd suggest, is generally acknowledged now to be a 'not quite first rank' driver. Hamilton showed at the beginning of the year that he is still makes mistakes when put under pressure.

There is no doubt that he is the fastest driver and the best at overtaking of the current generation but again IMO, there is an argument that he is not the 'best'.

Asphalt_World
Posts: 5292
Joined: Thu May 12, 2011 6:08 pm

Re: Vettel's Stock Appears to have Diminished Appreciably

Post by Asphalt_World »

Battle Far wrote:During my lurking days I seem to remember a poster who got a lot of stick here for his strap line which was something like
Vettel, the youngest driver ever to have the fastest car in F1 for 4 consecutive years
Given Ricciardo and the Ferrari years, seems pretty accurate to me

Similarly IMO, those that put Hamilton on a pedestal are coloured by his domination of Rosberg, who I'd suggest, is generally acknowledged now to be a 'not quite first rank' driver. Hamilton showed at the beginning of the year that he is still makes mistakes when put under pressure.

There is no doubt that he is the fastest driver and the best at overtaking of the current generation but again IMO, there is an argument that he is not the 'best'.
Brace yourself!
Instagram @simply_italian_cars

aice
Posts: 588
Joined: Mon Jul 20, 2015 4:37 pm

Re: Vettel's Stock Appears to have Diminished Appreciably

Post by aice »

Battle Far wrote:During my lurking days I seem to remember a poster who got a lot of stick here for his strap line which was something like
Vettel, the youngest driver ever to have the fastest car in F1 for 4 consecutive years
Given Ricciardo and the Ferrari years, seems pretty accurate to me

Similarly IMO, those that put Hamilton on a pedestal are coloured by his domination of Rosberg, who I'd suggest, is generally acknowledged now to be a 'not quite first rank' driver. Hamilton showed at the beginning of the year that he is still makes mistakes when put under pressure.

There is no doubt that he is the fastest driver and the best at overtaking of the current generation but again IMO, there is an argument that he is not the 'best'.
(BIB) Personally, i don't know of many who think this way. I think Hamilton's status as among the best was cemented way before partnering Rosberg. IMO, Hamilton's high rating was largely borne out of his performances when partnering higher ranked drivers such as Alonso and Button. He beat them both in identical machinery. And of course Hamilton still makes mistakes under pressure, but what driver doesn't?
You just need to be accepted for who you are and be proud of who you are and that is what I'm trying to do.
Lewis Hamilton

aice
Posts: 588
Joined: Mon Jul 20, 2015 4:37 pm

Re: Vettel's Stock Appears to have Diminished Appreciably

Post by aice »

Alonshow wrote:There's no point in arguing, guys, democracy has spoken. Haryanto is way better than Rosberg, and that's that. I bet his dismissal from Manor is a secret manoeuvre of Mercedes to hire him in secret to replace Rosberg.
:lol:
You just need to be accepted for who you are and be proud of who you are and that is what I'm trying to do.
Lewis Hamilton

montyinct
Posts: 227
Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2012 1:03 pm

Re: Vettel's Stock Appears to have Diminished Appreciably

Post by montyinct »

Vettel fans might not like this, but I feel like Hamilton would be getting better results in that Ferrari than both drivers, I just think Ham has evolved to become such a solid and formidable driver

mikeyg123
Posts: 18637
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:13 pm

Re: Vettel's Stock Appears to have Diminished Appreciably

Post by mikeyg123 »

Battle Far wrote:During my lurking days I seem to remember a poster who got a lot of stick here for his strap line which was something like
Vettel, the youngest driver ever to have the fastest car in F1 for 4 consecutive years
Given Ricciardo and the Ferrari years, seems pretty accurate to me

Similarly IMO, those that put Hamilton on a pedestal are coloured by his domination of Rosberg, who I'd suggest, is generally acknowledged now to be a 'not quite first rank' driver. Hamilton showed at the beginning of the year that he is still makes mistakes when put under pressure.

There is no doubt that he is the fastest driver and the best at overtaking of the current generation but again IMO, there is an argument that he is not the 'best'.
Except he has never had the fastest car for 4 consecutive years.

Pullrod
Posts: 824
Joined: Tue Dec 23, 2014 1:04 pm

Re: Vettel's Stock Appears to have Diminished Appreciably

Post by Pullrod »

montyinct wrote:Vettel fans might not like this, but I feel like Hamilton would be getting better results in that Ferrari than both drivers, I just think Ham has evolved to become such a solid and formidable driver
There was a possibility for Hamilton to drive for Ferrari but Montezemolo never was his fan because according to him, Hamilton is not the right "type" of driver with his extravagant life and I guess his fashion style and the people he associate with.

On the other hand Marchionne, a manager who spent most of his time in America and sees Hamilton as the ideal Ferrari driver, is working to get not only Hamilton, but Ross Brawn and several engineers from Mercedes. Problem is many engineers(Newey for example) want nothing to do with Ferrari and the pay is lower compared to their English rivals with a worse atmosphere.

ALESI
Posts: 2418
Joined: Mon Mar 24, 2003 1:36 pm

Re: Vettel's Stock Appears to have Diminished Appreciably

Post by ALESI »

aice wrote:
Battle Far wrote:During my lurking days I seem to remember a poster who got a lot of stick here for his strap line which was something like
Vettel, the youngest driver ever to have the fastest car in F1 for 4 consecutive years
Given Ricciardo and the Ferrari years, seems pretty accurate to me

Similarly IMO, those that put Hamilton on a pedestal are coloured by his domination of Rosberg, who I'd suggest, is generally acknowledged now to be a 'not quite first rank' driver. Hamilton showed at the beginning of the year that he is still makes mistakes when put under pressure.

There is no doubt that he is the fastest driver and the best at overtaking of the current generation but again IMO, there is an argument that he is not the 'best'.
(BIB) Personally, i don't know of many who think this way. I think Hamilton's status as among the best was cemented way before partnering Rosberg. IMO, Hamilton's high rating was largely borne out of his performances when partnering higher ranked drivers such as Alonso and Button. He beat them both in identical machinery. And of course Hamilton still makes mistakes under pressure, but what driver doesn't?
Why is it the only time one ever hears Button being described as 'highly rated' is when someone is trying to big up Hamilton in comparison?
Shoot999: "And anyone who puts a Y on the end of his name as a nickname should be punched in the face repeatedly."

User avatar
Exediron
Posts: 8580
Joined: Sun Feb 23, 2014 3:53 am
Location: Michigan, USA
Contact:

Re: Vettel's Stock Appears to have Diminished Appreciably

Post by Exediron »

ALESI wrote:Why is it the only time one ever hears Button being described as 'highly rated' is when someone is trying to big up Hamilton in comparison?
Good question. He's a world champion and has proven his speed and racecraft on numerous occasions; you'd think people would rate him higher in general.
PICK 10 COMPETITION (6 wins, 18 podiums): 3rd in 2016
TOP THREE CHAMPIONSHIP (No Limit Excedrin Racing): Champions in 2015 & 2018 | 2nd in 2017 & 2019
AUTOSPORT GP PREDICTOR: 2017 USA & P-F1 Champion

pokerman
Posts: 36626
Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm

Re: Vettel's Stock Appears to have Diminished Appreciably

Post by pokerman »

ALESI wrote:
aice wrote:
Battle Far wrote:During my lurking days I seem to remember a poster who got a lot of stick here for his strap line which was something like
Vettel, the youngest driver ever to have the fastest car in F1 for 4 consecutive years
Given Ricciardo and the Ferrari years, seems pretty accurate to me

Similarly IMO, those that put Hamilton on a pedestal are coloured by his domination of Rosberg, who I'd suggest, is generally acknowledged now to be a 'not quite first rank' driver. Hamilton showed at the beginning of the year that he is still makes mistakes when put under pressure.

There is no doubt that he is the fastest driver and the best at overtaking of the current generation but again IMO, there is an argument that he is not the 'best'.
(BIB) Personally, i don't know of many who think this way. I think Hamilton's status as among the best was cemented way before partnering Rosberg. IMO, Hamilton's high rating was largely borne out of his performances when partnering higher ranked drivers such as Alonso and Button. He beat them both in identical machinery. And of course Hamilton still makes mistakes under pressure, but what driver doesn't?
Why is it the only time one ever hears Button being described as 'highly rated' is when someone is trying to big up Hamilton in comparison?
So you don't rate Button despite his performances relative to Alonso?

We don't want to be thinking that the drivers that Hamilton beats are really that good?
Lewis Hamilton #44

World Drivers Titles: 7 (1st)
Grand Prix Wins: 96 (1st)
Pole Positions: 98 (1st)
Podiums: 166 (1st)


PF1 Pick 10 Competition
2014: Champion

Asphalt_World
Posts: 5292
Joined: Thu May 12, 2011 6:08 pm

Re: Vettel's Stock Appears to have Diminished Appreciably

Post by Asphalt_World »

pokerman wrote:
ALESI wrote:
aice wrote:
Battle Far wrote:During my lurking days I seem to remember a poster who got a lot of stick here for his strap line which was something like
Vettel, the youngest driver ever to have the fastest car in F1 for 4 consecutive years
Given Ricciardo and the Ferrari years, seems pretty accurate to me

Similarly IMO, those that put Hamilton on a pedestal are coloured by his domination of Rosberg, who I'd suggest, is generally acknowledged now to be a 'not quite first rank' driver. Hamilton showed at the beginning of the year that he is still makes mistakes when put under pressure.

There is no doubt that he is the fastest driver and the best at overtaking of the current generation but again IMO, there is an argument that he is not the 'best'.
(BIB) Personally, i don't know of many who think this way. I think Hamilton's status as among the best was cemented way before partnering Rosberg. IMO, Hamilton's high rating was largely borne out of his performances when partnering higher ranked drivers such as Alonso and Button. He beat them both in identical machinery. And of course Hamilton still makes mistakes under pressure, but what driver doesn't?
Why is it the only time one ever hears Button being described as 'highly rated' is when someone is trying to big up Hamilton in comparison?
So you don't rate Button despite his performances relative to Alonso?

We don't want to be thinking that the drivers that Hamilton beats are really that good?
:?
Instagram @simply_italian_cars

Post Reply