Rank the grid on wheel-to-wheel racing! (2016 edition)

Exediron · Post by **Exediron** » Sat Aug 13, 2016 6:11 am

Salutations!

Some of you may remember my thread from 2014, which I stumbled upon while searching for something entirely unrelated. Regardless, it seems an interesting enough way to alleviate some of the summer break blues, so...

Rank the grid, in whatever way you want (I used tiers last time, and I probably will again) based purely on wheel-to-wheel ability. This isn't 'the best overtakers' or even 'the cleanest drivers'. This is the drivers who possess the best ability and maneuvering their cars in such close proximity as to almost touch a rivals. The ability to keep it clean and actually complete a move is surely important, but not the core of what we're going for here.

My own list:

Tier 1
Alonso (Not much chance to show it this year, but still the best in my opinion)
Button (Always a better racer than his outright speed, my opinion of him has only gone up since 2014)
Ricciardo (Clean and decisive; usually comes out on top at that)

Tier 1.5
Hamilton (Could be top tier, but tends to get sloppy when he's in a hurry; too much contact while fighting wheel-to-wheel)
Raikkonen (Down from 2014; some questionable incidents in 2015 are still taking their toll on my opinion)
Vettel (Much like Hamilton, prone to making mistakes under pressure in close situations)
Verstappen (Too dangerous to be top tier, although he has the skill)

Tier 2
Bottas (Like much about Bottas I don't usually notice his wheel-to-wheel combat, but my impression is that he's pretty clean - not very decisive, though)
Hulkenberg (Not very consistent, but almost always clean)
Perez (Much improved since 2014 in every area, including this one)
Sainz (Could be higher, but I feel he's sometimes too hesitant about going wheel-to-wheel)
Palmer (This might be a surprise to some, but I rate him quite highly in this category; less so in terms of speed, however)

Tier 3
Massa (I feel that his level has slipped somewhat; indecisive and sometimes clumsy now)
Gutierrez (Maybe I'm being unfair to him - I can't actually remember many incidents)
Magnussen (Used to be quite dangerous, but I feel he's improved to merely mediocre in this category)
Ericsson (Mediocre in every category, including this one)
Nasr (Hard to say, since we typically only see him being overtaken at the start - but my impression isn't great)
Wehrlein (Not many opportunities in a Manor, so possibly being unfair to him as well here)
Grosjean (He's come a long way since 2012, but wheel-to-wheel racing still isn't his strong suit)

Tier 4
Kvyat (Sorry, Daniil...)
Rosberg (Clumsy and dangerous when wheel-to-wheel; he can overtake, but typically only with a dive-bomb)

What do you all think? Who's doing better since 2014? Who's gone backwards? Who's still the best, or the worst?

bonecrasher · Post by **bonecrasher** » Sat Aug 13, 2016 6:24 am

Exediron wrote:Salutations!

Some of you may remember my thread from 2014, which I stumbled upon while searching for something entirely unrelated. Regardless, it seems an interesting enough way to alleviate some of the summer break blues, so...

Rank the grid, in whatever way you want (I used tiers last time, and I probably will again) based purely on wheel-to-wheel ability. This isn't 'the best overtakers' or even 'the cleanest drivers'. This is the drivers who possess the best ability and maneuvering their cars in such close proximity as to almost touch a rivals. The ability to keep it clean and actually complete a move is surely important, but not the core of what we're going for here.

My own list:

Tier 1
Alonso (Not much chance to show it this year, but still the best in my opinion)
Button (Always a better racer than his outright speed, my opinion of him has only gone up since 2014)
Ricciardo (Clean and decisive; usually comes out on top at that)

Tier 1.5
Hamilton (Could be top tier, but tends to get sloppy when he's in a hurry; too much contact while fighting wheel-to-wheel)
Raikkonen (Down from 2014; some questionable incidents in 2015 are still taking their toll on my opinion)
Vettel (Much like Hamilton, prone to making mistakes under pressure in close situations)
Verstappen (Too dangerous to be top tier, although he has the skill)

Tier 2
Bottas (Like much about Bottas I don't usually notice his wheel-to-wheel combat, but my impression is that he's pretty clean - not very decisive, though)
Hulkenberg (Not very consistent, but almost always clean)
Perez (Much improved since 2014 in every area, including this one)
Sainz (Could be higher, but I feel he's sometimes too hesitant about going wheel-to-wheel)
Palmer (This might be a surprise to some, but I rate him quite highly in this category; less so in terms of speed, however)

Tier 3
Massa (I feel that his level has slipped somewhat; indecisive and sometimes clumsy now)
Gutierrez (Maybe I'm being unfair to him - I can't actually remember many incidents)
Magnussen (Used to be quite dangerous, but I feel he's improved to merely mediocre in this category)
Ericsson (Mediocre in every category, including this one)
Nasr (Hard to say, since we typically only see him being overtaken at the start - but my impression isn't great)
Wehrlein (Not many opportunities in a Manor, so possibly being unfair to him as well here)
Grosjean (He's come a long way since 2012, but wheel-to-wheel racing still isn't his strong suit)

Tier 4
Kvyat (Sorry, Daniil...)
Rosberg (Clumsy and dangerous when wheel-to-wheel; he can overtake, but typically only with a dive-bomb)

What do you all think? Who's doing better since 2014? Who's gone backwards? Who's still the best, or the worst?

Lol... Button better than Hamilton in wheel to wheel. This is a new one to me. The Vast majority of his wins are in changeable conditions and even then he doesnt overtake a lot of people but waits around driving conservatively until everybody in front messes up. Just give one race u feel Jenson demonstrated this prowess in wheel to wheel racing.

bonecrasher · Post by **bonecrasher** » Sat Aug 13, 2016 6:27 am

Exediron wrote:Salutations!

Some of you may remember my thread from 2014, which I stumbled upon while searching for something entirely unrelated. Regardless, it seems an interesting enough way to alleviate some of the summer break blues, so...

Rank the grid, in whatever way you want (I used tiers last time, and I probably will again) based purely on wheel-to-wheel ability. This isn't 'the best overtakers' or even 'the cleanest drivers'. This is the drivers who possess the best ability and maneuvering their cars in such close proximity as to almost touch a rivals. The ability to keep it clean and actually complete a move is surely important, but not the core of what we're going for here.

My own list:

Tier 1
Alonso (Not much chance to show it this year, but still the best in my opinion)
Button (Always a better racer than his outright speed, my opinion of him has only gone up since 2014)
Ricciardo (Clean and decisive; usually comes out on top at that)

Tier 1.5
Hamilton (Could be top tier, but tends to get sloppy when he's in a hurry; too much contact while fighting wheel-to-wheel)
Raikkonen (Down from 2014; some questionable incidents in 2015 are still taking their toll on my opinion)
Vettel (Much like Hamilton, prone to making mistakes under pressure in close situations)
Verstappen (Too dangerous to be top tier, although he has the skill)

Tier 2
Bottas (Like much about Bottas I don't usually notice his wheel-to-wheel combat, but my impression is that he's pretty clean - not very decisive, though)
Hulkenberg (Not very consistent, but almost always clean)
Perez (Much improved since 2014 in every area, including this one)
Sainz (Could be higher, but I feel he's sometimes too hesitant about going wheel-to-wheel)
Palmer (This might be a surprise to some, but I rate him quite highly in this category; less so in terms of speed, however)

Tier 3
Massa (I feel that his level has slipped somewhat; indecisive and sometimes clumsy now)
Gutierrez (Maybe I'm being unfair to him - I can't actually remember many incidents)
Magnussen (Used to be quite dangerous, but I feel he's improved to merely mediocre in this category)
Ericsson (Mediocre in every category, including this one)
Nasr (Hard to say, since we typically only see him being overtaken at the start - but my impression isn't great)
Wehrlein (Not many opportunities in a Manor, so possibly being unfair to him as well here)
Grosjean (He's come a long way since 2012, but wheel-to-wheel racing still isn't his strong suit)

Tier 4
Kvyat (Sorry, Daniil...)
Rosberg (Clumsy and dangerous when wheel-to-wheel; he can overtake, but typically only with a dive-bomb)

What do you all think? Who's doing better since 2014? Who's gone backwards? Who's still the best, or the worst?

Lol... Button better than Hamilton in wheel to wheel. This is a new one to me. The Vast majority of his wins are in changeable conditions and even then he doesnt overtake a lot of people but waits around driving conservatively until everybody in front messes up. Just give one race u feel Jenson demonstrated this prowess in wheel to wheel racing.

Exediron · Post by **Exediron** » Sat Aug 13, 2016 6:43 am

bonecrasher wrote:Lol... Button better than Hamilton in wheel to wheel. This is a new one to me. The Vast majority of his wins are in changeable conditions and even then he doesnt overtake a lot of people but waits around driving conservatively until everybody in front messes up. Just give one race u feel Jenson demonstrated this prowess in wheel to wheel racing.

Okay, since you asked - it's not hard to find examples, but here's the first one I came to:

Another that comes to mind is Brazil 2009, but I couldn't find any videos of that quickly.

Button isn't as fast as Hamilton, or as decisive an overtaker. But I'll stand by my opinion that he's better and cleaner in wheel-to-wheel situations more consistently.

Amon · Post by **Amon** » Sat Aug 13, 2016 7:06 am

I have a hard time believing Grosjean is that low and Palmer so high. Extremely harsh on Rosberg too. Rosberg mostly cracks when battling with Lewis.

Gone backwards IMO: Massa, Nasr, Kvyat

specdecible · Post by **specdecible** » Sat Aug 13, 2016 8:24 am

Exediron wrote:
bonecrasher wrote:Lol... Button better than Hamilton in wheel to wheel. This is a new one to me. The Vast majority of his wins are in changeable conditions and even then he doesnt overtake a lot of people but waits around driving conservatively until everybody in front messes up. Just give one race u feel Jenson demonstrated this prowess in wheel to wheel racing.
Okay, since you asked - it's not hard to find examples, but here's the first one I came to:

Another that comes to mind is Brazil 2009, but I couldn't find any videos of that quickly.

Button isn't as fast as Hamilton, or as decisive an overtaker. But I'll stand by my opinion that he's better and cleaner in wheel-to-wheel situations more consistently.

I agree

Zoue · Post by **Zoue** » Sat Aug 13, 2016 8:43 am

Ricciardo in the top rank? The man who punted Kimi at Monaco 2015 and who would have crashed into Vettel in Spain if the other hadn't taken avoiding action? I don't think so

sandman1347 · Post by **sandman1347** » Sat Aug 13, 2016 12:47 pm

This is a joke right?

sandman1347 · Post by **sandman1347** » Sat Aug 13, 2016 1:36 pm

Exediron wrote:
bonecrasher wrote:Lol... Button better than Hamilton in wheel to wheel. This is a new one to me. The Vast majority of his wins are in changeable conditions and even then he doesnt overtake a lot of people but waits around driving conservatively until everybody in front messes up. Just give one race u feel Jenson demonstrated this prowess in wheel to wheel racing.
Okay, since you asked - it's not hard to find examples, but here's the first one I came to:

Another that comes to mind is Brazil 2009, but I couldn't find any videos of that quickly.

Button isn't as fast as Hamilton, or as decisive an overtaker. But I'll stand by my opinion that he's better and cleaner in wheel-to-wheel situations more consistently.

Funny you would mention that race as Hamilton started that race in 17th and finished in 3rd...

mikeyg123 · Post by **mikeyg123** » Sat Aug 13, 2016 3:43 pm

I don't think there is a need for tier 1.5 - Move Hamilton up and the other 3 down.

Exediron · Post by **Exediron** » Sat Aug 13, 2016 7:32 pm

sandman1347 wrote:This is a joke right?

No, it's an opportunity for you to post your own opinion. If you have a problem with how I've ranked them, please elaborate instead of just calling it a joke (which it's not).

Exediron · Post by **Exediron** » Sat Aug 13, 2016 7:42 pm

Zoue wrote:Ricciardo in the top rank? The man who punted Kimi at Monaco 2015 and who would have crashed into Vettel in Spain if the other hadn't taken avoiding action? I don't think so

I actually forgot about Monaco 2015, which I fully agree was his fault. Spain however I think was more a 50/50 - Vettel complained more about it than was merited, in my opinion. Still, I can see punting him down to 1.5 on that basis, since I did Kimi for crashing into Bottas in 2015.

sandman1347 · Post by **sandman1347** » Sat Aug 13, 2016 7:55 pm

Exediron wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:This is a joke right?
No, it's an opportunity for you to post your own opinion. If you have a problem with how I've ranked them, please elaborate instead of just calling it a joke (which it's not).

Sorry but your rankings seem poorly thought out. If there's any area where you would have to place Lewis Hamilton in the top tier, it's wheel to wheel racing. The idea that Daniel Ricciardo is deserving of a higher place on that list than Hamilton is a bit silly considering their respective track records. Also, when you look at how many times Hamilton out-dueled Button wheel to wheel while they were teammates in identical machinery, it feels farcical to place Button higher on this list than his former teammate.

Anyway, everyone has an opinion. For me, I look at how many times a driver has really done something impressive in a wheel to wheel scenario. In particular, how many decent charges through the field have they had. In Daniel's case not many but I remember his charge in the dying laps in Hungary back in 2014; where he had to get by Hamilton and Alonso (albeit on far fresher tires). Button had a phenomenal charge at Hungary in 2006 and who could forget that performance in Canada back in 2011. For Alonso, he was great in Hungary in 2006 as well and I vividly remember his performance in Valencia in 2012. That was jaw-dropping. Hamilton has had a lot of charges through the field over his career; more than any of the other guys. Australia in 2009 was crazy in that the car was an absolute dog at that stage in the season and he went from 18th on the grid to 4th at the end of the race. Likewise in Brazil he went 17th to 3rd that year. Also he started in 20th and 22nd and in Germany and Hungary back in 2014 and was able to finish on the podium.

I also find it amazing that you would rank Raikkonen high on this list. He is extremely poor at overtaking and has never been exceptional at it. He seems very timid under braking most of the time and doesn't go for the gap. Even in his legendary 2005 win at Suzuka, he gained most of his positions through pit stop strategy.

For me; in terms of wheel to wheel racing; it's:

Tier 1
Hamilton, Alonso
Tier 1.5
Button
Tier 2
Ricciardo, Verstappen
Tier 3
Vettel, Sainz

Those are the only drivers who I would say have distinguished themselves as overtakers/defenders. Rosberg has had some good moves but he has also had too many huge blunders of late. Felipe Massa is an unreasonable defender who would just as soon crash both cars out of the race as let someone pass him (though this seems to have changed with age). Sergio Perez is solid but not exceptional and tends to gain positions through making his tires last rather than on-track action.

Zoue · Post by **Zoue** » Sat Aug 13, 2016 7:59 pm

Exediron wrote:
Zoue wrote:Ricciardo in the top rank? The man who punted Kimi at Monaco 2015 and who would have crashed into Vettel in Spain if the other hadn't taken avoiding action? I don't think so
I actually forgot about Monaco 2015, which I fully agree was his fault. Spain however I think was more a 50/50 - Vettel complained more about it than was merited, in my opinion. Still, I can see punting him down to 1.5 on that basis, since I did Kimi for crashing into Bottas in 2015.

Fair enough. Sounds reasonable to me!

aice · Post by **aice** » Sat Aug 13, 2016 8:24 pm

Exediron wrote:
Zoue wrote:Ricciardo in the top rank? The man who punted Kimi at Monaco 2015 and who would have crashed into Vettel in Spain if the other hadn't taken avoiding action? I don't think so
I actually forgot about Monaco 2015, which I fully agree was his fault. Spain however I think was more a 50/50 - Vettel complained more about it than was merited, in my opinion. Still, I can see punting him down to 1.5 on that basis, since I did Kimi for crashing into Bottas in 2015.

I can't quite recall how similar the 2 incidents compare, but wasn't Alonso penalised at Monaco 2015 for forcing Hulk into the wall, trying to pass him on the inside? And of course Australia this year, clipping the back of Esteban Gutierrez while attempting to pass.

Perhaps you should follow suit and relegate Alonso to 1.5?

Lotus49 · Post by **Lotus49** » Sat Aug 13, 2016 8:36 pm

Tier 1 is going to be empty if we're relegating them over every single incident, they've all been penalized over the last 18 months, but until I do my own list I can't really be too hard on anyone else's.

Asphalt_World · Post by **Asphalt_World** » Sat Aug 13, 2016 10:04 pm

Yeah, this thread has all the makings of WWIII

Lupin · Post by **Lupin** » Sun Aug 14, 2016 5:26 am

sandman1347 wrote:
Exediron wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:This is a joke right?
No, it's an opportunity for you to post your own opinion. If you have a problem with how I've ranked them, please elaborate instead of just calling it a joke (which it's not).
Sorry but your rankings seem poorly thought out. If there's any area where you would have to place Lewis Hamilton in the top tier, it's wheel to wheel racing. The idea that Daniel Ricciardo is deserving of a higher place on that list than Hamilton is a bit silly considering their respective track records. Also, when you look at how many times Hamilton out-dueled Button wheel to wheel while they were teammates in identical machinery, it feels farcical to place Button higher on this list than his former teammate.

Anyway, everyone has an opinion. For me, I look at how many times a driver has really done something impressive in a wheel to wheel scenario. In particular, how many decent charges through the field have they had. In Daniel's case not many but I remember his charge in the dying laps in Hungary back in 2014; where he had to get by Hamilton and Alonso (albeit on far fresher tires). Button had a phenomenal charge at Hungary in 2006 and who could forget that performance in Canada back in 2011. For Alonso, he was great in Hungary in 2006 as well and I vividly remember his performance in Valencia in 2012. That was jaw-dropping. Hamilton has had a lot of charges through the field over his career; more than any of the other guys. Australia in 2009 was crazy in that the car was an absolute dog at that stage in the season and he went from 18th on the grid to 4th at the end of the race. Likewise in Brazil he went 17th to 3rd that year. Also he started in 20th and 22nd and in Germany and Hungary back in 2014 and was able to finish on the podium.

I also find it amazing that you would rank Raikkonen high on this list. He is extremely poor at overtaking and has never been exceptional at it. He seems very timid under braking most of the time and doesn't go for the gap. Even in his legendary 2005 win at Suzuka, he gained most of his positions through pit stop strategy.

For me; in terms of wheel to wheel racing; it's:

Tier 1
Hamilton, Alonso
Tier 1.5
Button
Tier 2
Ricciardo, Verstappen
Tier 3
Vettel, Sainz

Those are the only drivers who I would say have distinguished themselves as overtakers/defenders. Rosberg has had some good moves but he has also had too many huge blunders of late. Felipe Massa is an unreasonable defender who would just as soon crash both cars out of the race as let someone pass him (though this seems to have changed with age). Sergio Perez is solid but not exceptional and tends to gain positions through making his tires last rather than on-track action.

I think you are misreading the OP. He said CLEAN wheel to wheel racing. Hamilton is always touching people etc especially early in his career. There are numerous incidents where Hamilton ends up in a crash with someone (either his fault or the other drivers). I would agree that Button is cleaner at wheel to wheel racing than Hamilton. Hamilton may be better at overtaking etc, but that wasn't the question. Hamilton is very much emulates his hero Senna, both are great, but not clean at all

_Rogue_ · Post by **_Rogue_** » Sun Aug 14, 2016 4:15 pm

Lupin wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Exediron wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:This is a joke right?
No, it's an opportunity for you to post your own opinion. If you have a problem with how I've ranked them, please elaborate instead of just calling it a joke (which it's not).
Sorry but your rankings seem poorly thought out. If there's any area where you would have to place Lewis Hamilton in the top tier, it's wheel to wheel racing. The idea that Daniel Ricciardo is deserving of a higher place on that list than Hamilton is a bit silly considering their respective track records. Also, when you look at how many times Hamilton out-dueled Button wheel to wheel while they were teammates in identical machinery, it feels farcical to place Button higher on this list than his former teammate.

Anyway, everyone has an opinion. For me, I look at how many times a driver has really done something impressive in a wheel to wheel scenario. In particular, how many decent charges through the field have they had. In Daniel's case not many but I remember his charge in the dying laps in Hungary back in 2014; where he had to get by Hamilton and Alonso (albeit on far fresher tires). Button had a phenomenal charge at Hungary in 2006 and who could forget that performance in Canada back in 2011. For Alonso, he was great in Hungary in 2006 as well and I vividly remember his performance in Valencia in 2012. That was jaw-dropping. Hamilton has had a lot of charges through the field over his career; more than any of the other guys. Australia in 2009 was crazy in that the car was an absolute dog at that stage in the season and he went from 18th on the grid to 4th at the end of the race. Likewise in Brazil he went 17th to 3rd that year. Also he started in 20th and 22nd and in Germany and Hungary back in 2014 and was able to finish on the podium.

I also find it amazing that you would rank Raikkonen high on this list. He is extremely poor at overtaking and has never been exceptional at it. He seems very timid under braking most of the time and doesn't go for the gap. Even in his legendary 2005 win at Suzuka, he gained most of his positions through pit stop strategy.

For me; in terms of wheel to wheel racing; it's:

Tier 1
Hamilton, Alonso
Tier 1.5
Button
Tier 2
Ricciardo, Verstappen
Tier 3
Vettel, Sainz

Those are the only drivers who I would say have distinguished themselves as overtakers/defenders. Rosberg has had some good moves but he has also had too many huge blunders of late. Felipe Massa is an unreasonable defender who would just as soon crash both cars out of the race as let someone pass him (though this seems to have changed with age). Sergio Perez is solid but not exceptional and tends to gain positions through making his tires last rather than on-track action.
I think you are misreading the OP. He said CLEAN wheel to wheel racing. Hamilton is always touching people etc especially early in his career. There are numerous incidents where Hamilton ends up in a crash with someone (either his fault or the other drivers). I would agree that Button is cleaner at wheel to wheel racing than Hamilton. Hamilton may be better at overtaking etc, but that wasn't the question. Hamilton is very much emulates his hero Senna, both are great, but not clean at all

Thats always worth a watch for Hamilton's wheel to wheel and overtaking prowess especially as they are all spec cars

Badgeronimous · Post by **Badgeronimous** » Sun Aug 14, 2016 10:06 pm

Surely part of wheel to wheel racing is being aggressive and, when you need to be, as dirty as the rules allow.

Certainly, the term "Wheel to Wheel" implies a battle on track - getting the overtake done, clean when possible, but clumsy/dirty/whatever will do, provided you come out on top with minimal damage and no penalty - needs must.

I do rate Hamilton very highly when it comes to wheel to wheel, as I do Alonso and Ricciardo. They are the 3 best, with Alonso being the cleanest of the 3.

Raikkonen and Button are clean, but not as effective as those 3.

lbennie · Post by **lbennie** » Mon Aug 15, 2016 1:43 am

hamilton, alonso & ricciardo stand out for me.

kleefton · Post by **kleefton** » Mon Aug 15, 2016 2:43 am

To me the best at wheel to wheel racing is not necessarily always the cleanest. It's how a successful a driver is at defending a position and his creativeness at overtaking.

In those areas I think Ricciardo is the best, Lewis is also up there. Before this year I would say that Alonso is also up there, but this year he has made a mess of things at least a couple of times while racing wheel to wheel. (I know some would argue OZ wasn't his fault, but still) He is still very good though. Max is also very good but he does not always play by the rules when defending his position.

The next level has Vettel, Button, Perez. Those guys have amazing spatial awareness and usually get the job done whether it is defending or overtaking.

Then you have guys that are mediocre, such as Bottas, Massa, Rosberg, Hulkenberg, Grosjean and a few others.

As far as the worst I would nominate the Sauber boys and Gutierrez. But it is clear that there is noone as bad as Maldonado currently on the grid.

IDrinkYourMilkshake · Post by **IDrinkYourMilkshake** » Mon Aug 15, 2016 6:42 am

1. Fernando - Makes the best moves consistently, yet makes the least mistakes. Also, is very, very fair, even to his championship rivals, and has by far the BEST spatial awareness and reactions.

2. Ricciardo - Very, very similar to Fernando, just needs more time to prove it.

3. Hamilton - As good as Fernando at overtaking, but more error-prone and less consistent.

4. Button - Fair, clever and clean.

5. Vettel - Along with Fernando, the best and most tactical defender. Good at overtaking, but sometimes lacks a little spatial awareness, and like Hamilton, bangs into other cars.

Around the middle : Raikkonen - Used to be very good, and is fair on track. But as time goes by, has turned lazy and is literally sleeping on track, gets overtaken easily due to mistakes and negligence.

Among the worst : Grosjean - Still lacks in spatial awareness, still error-prone and blames others.

THE worst : Maldonado from the recent past. No words for that "driver".

Note - I'd add Verstappen near the top 5, but not sure where to place him yet. Too early. It takes time. For instance, if I was asked in 2005, I'd have only said Fernando is good, not great. Perspective and hindsight really helps in F1.

Amon · Post by **Amon** » Mon Aug 15, 2016 7:47 am

kleefton wrote: But it is clear that there is noone as bad as Maldonado currently on the grid.

Uh have I missed something? For which team did he sign?

stevey · Post by **stevey** » Mon Aug 15, 2016 10:25 am

Just gonna do top 3 tiers, gonna leave out drivers that don't stand out to me. maybe 4 for the worst driver

. I do wonder how this would change without DRS.

1, Hamilton - One of the best defensively and when attacking, the way he sets up an overtake is amazing before he pounces. Tends not to need DRS to overtake, car positioning is impeccable on defense.
1, Alonso - Still a whiley old fox, wish he had the car to mix it at the top.
1, Ricciardo - Has pulled some amazing overtakes and wheel to wheel racing.

2, Verstappen - great overtaker, his defensive skills though are what pulls him down into tier 2, moving under braking way to often even only a matter of time before he gets called on it.
2, Vettel - great when he's on it and good when he's not.
2, Button - backs out of it way to often and is to fair too people trying to overtake him to make it to tier 1.
2, Bottas - tilts between a 2 and a 3.

3, Kimi - was tier 2 in his prime, very fair but lacking killer instinct. Would like to have him tier 2 but evidence on last year suggests tier 3, while this year seems to be an uptrend so who knows.
3, Hulk - Pretty Average, could be dictated by the strats ran by the team, running long and then having better tyres at the end.
3, Perez - Same as hulk. more of a risk taker though.
3, Massa - totally average on overtakes, but a defensive barrier when it comes to being overtaken

4, Rosberg - terrible at wheel to wheel, without DRS and a car that is so good he wouldn't be able overtake/race anyone. This year alone, this July alone has seen some shocking racing on his part. 2 Manouvers designed to push people off the track entirely mid corner or on corner entry. Despite Hamilton closing the door on exit to Rosberg so many times Nico doesn't learn. He's a fast driver and if at the front can run like the best of them, but shove him in the pack and watch him crumble.

Andy2402 · Post by **Andy2402** » Mon Aug 15, 2016 5:23 pm

I'd agree with people's views around Hamilton not being as clean as some, I'd also agree that's part of racing a la Senna. For that reason I'd put him top tier

Also can I just say a drive from the back doesn't necessarily result in great wheel 2 wheel racing in today's era...mostly overspeed pass after a straight.

Ric hasn't impressed me with passes since 2014 when he really stood out. Since then he's looked a lot more aggressive in his approach which I like such as the almost incident with vettel

Blinky McSquinty · Post by **Blinky McSquinty** » Mon Aug 15, 2016 5:36 pm

Asphalt_World wrote:Yeah, this thread has all the makings of WWIII

http://www.factslides.com/imgs/atomic-bomb.jpg

And that is why I refrain from submitting my opinion. Although the intentions of the OP are admirable, favoritism will eventually creep in.

I will not mention names, but when I assess such a category, who avoids trouble, who makes the best of their car, and takes advantage of situations is what matters.

Badgeronimous · Post by **Badgeronimous** » Tue Aug 16, 2016 8:36 am

I'd ask the forum a hypothetical question. For the purpose of the question, the hypothetical fastest car doesn't have as large an advantage as Mercedes currently do, but a championship capable car no less.

1) Give any driver the fastest car, and start them bang in the middle of the grid, 11th or 12th, which driver would you place most faith in getting the best result in a one off race?

2) Re-run the scenario 10 times, which driver do you think would end up with the most points after 10 races starting in the middle of the grid?

For Q1, if I was to place money on any driver to get the best result from that scenario it would be Hamilton. Perhaps Ricciardo too.

For Q2, it becomes more interesting. Whilst I think Hamilton is the driver most likely to get the best result starting mid grid, run the scenario 10 times and I also think he gets bogged down by some sort of incident 2-3 maybe 4 times, so would he finish with most points? I'd probably bet Alonso to come away with more points, but fewer trophies, running that scenario.

Zoue · Post by **Zoue** » Tue Aug 16, 2016 9:17 am

Badgeronimous wrote:I'd ask the forum a hypothetical question. For the purpose of the question, the hypothetical fastest car doesn't have as large an advantage as Mercedes currently do, but a championship capable car no less.

1) Give any driver the fastest car, and start them bang in the middle of the grid, 11th or 12th, which driver would you place most faith in getting the best result in a one off race?

2) Re-run the scenario 10 times, which driver do you think would end up with the most points after 10 races starting in the middle of the grid?

For Q1, if I was to place money on any driver to get the best result from that scenario it would be Hamilton. Perhaps Ricciardo too.

For Q2, it becomes more interesting. Whilst I think Hamilton is the driver most likely to get the best result starting mid grid, run the scenario 10 times and I also think he gets bogged down by some sort of incident 2-3 maybe 4 times, so would he finish with most points? I'd probably bet Alonso to come away with more points, but fewer trophies, running that scenario.

Most faith? Alonso for me. Every time. Followed by Vettel and Hamilton. Others could do it, too, of course, but those are the ones I'd see being the most likely to.

aice · Post by **aice** » Tue Aug 16, 2016 11:07 am

Badgeronimous wrote:I'd ask the forum a hypothetical question. For the purpose of the question, the hypothetical fastest car doesn't have as large an advantage as Mercedes currently do, but a championship capable car no less.

1) Give any driver the fastest car, and start them bang in the middle of the grid, 11th or 12th, which driver would you place most faith in getting the best result in a one off race?

2) Re-run the scenario 10 times, which driver do you think would end up with the most points after 10 races starting in the middle of the grid?

For Q1, if I was to place money on any driver to get the best result from that scenario it would be Hamilton. Perhaps Ricciardo too.

For Q2, it becomes more interesting. Whilst I think Hamilton is the driver most likely to get the best result starting mid grid, run the scenario 10 times and I also think he gets bogged down by some sort of incident 2-3 maybe 4 times, so would he finish with most points? I'd probably bet Alonso to come away with more points, but fewer trophies, running that scenario.

In his comment above, kleefton has mirrored some of my thoughts on this. A couple of years ago, I would have agreed with you regarding scenario 2. Now, I have to think twice. Looking over the past 18 months, Fernando has been involved in quite a few incidents and scrapes (some his fault, some not) - Monaco 2015, Austria 2015, USA 2015, Abu Dhabi 2015, Australia 2016 all spring to mind. Without checking, i’m sure there’s been more. I can appreciate that his McLaren cars have been absolute “dogs” & there is perhaps an increased risk of getting involved in more incidents when starting further back. But there has always been this thing about Alonso, having this "divine" ability to extract the most out of his machinery in a consistent and error free manner –regardless of the strength of car. Rightly or wrongly, my initial impression is that Alonso’s perceived penchant for clean, error free racing and avoiding trouble is perhaps dropping slightly?

Lotus49 · Post by **Lotus49** » Tue Aug 16, 2016 12:34 pm

aice wrote:
Badgeronimous wrote:I'd ask the forum a hypothetical question. For the purpose of the question, the hypothetical fastest car doesn't have as large an advantage as Mercedes currently do, but a championship capable car no less.

1) Give any driver the fastest car, and start them bang in the middle of the grid, 11th or 12th, which driver would you place most faith in getting the best result in a one off race?

2) Re-run the scenario 10 times, which driver do you think would end up with the most points after 10 races starting in the middle of the grid?

For Q1, if I was to place money on any driver to get the best result from that scenario it would be Hamilton. Perhaps Ricciardo too.

For Q2, it becomes more interesting. Whilst I think Hamilton is the driver most likely to get the best result starting mid grid, run the scenario 10 times and I also think he gets bogged down by some sort of incident 2-3 maybe 4 times, so would he finish with most points? I'd probably bet Alonso to come away with more points, but fewer trophies, running that scenario.

In his comment above, kleefton has mirrored some of my thoughts on this. A couple of years ago, I would have agreed with you regarding scenario 2. Now, I have to think twice. Looking over the past 18 months, Fernando has been involved in quite a few incidents and scrapes (some his fault, some not) - Monaco 2015, Austria 2015, USA 2015, Abu Dhabi 2015, Australia 2016 all spring to mind. Without checking, i’m sure there’s been more. I can appreciate that his McLaren cars have been absolute “dogs” & there is perhaps an increased risk of getting involved in more incidents when starting further back. But there has always been this thing about Alonso, having this "divine" ability to extract the most out of his machinery in a consistent and error free manner –regardless of the strength of car. Rightly or wrongly, my initial impression is that Alonso’s perceived penchant for clean, error free racing and avoiding trouble is perhaps dropping slightly?

Nobody avoids scrapes and it does happen more in the midfield than at the front, at the start of races especially, but at the same time JB has been in the exact same situation and has had less so Alonso is by no means the cleanest currently even at McLaren never mind the entire grid.

But Alonso isn't alone amongst the top drivers in having his fair share of scrapes, Without apportioning blame and just naming incidents you could make quite the list of contacts for even Lewis as well over the last 18 months and he's had the added bonus of starting at the front. Just this year it's Bahrain,China,Spain and Austria, which is more than Alonso.

So perhaps it's a general opinion on Alonso formed throughout his career with people putting recent scrapes down to where the car is and are giving him a pass. Added with his main competition also having their fair share.

I'd personally rate JB as the cleanest but then it's a question of effectiveness to go along with how clean you can be and that probably comes into it for people in this thread when rating Lewis and Alonso higher.

It's a tricky one.

Badgeronimous · Post by **Badgeronimous** » Tue Aug 16, 2016 1:01 pm

If your going to be aggressive you'll get into scrapes. Button is clean, maybe too clean.

In my scenarios I'd not be confident of Button getting a podium in a one off dry race, although he's more than capable.

Over 10 races, I think Button would get a few podiums, a few 4th/5th/6th finishes, and a few races where he gets bogged down and makes little ground fighting over 8th/9th/10th. However, he would perhaps be the driver most likely to remain incident free and score points in every race. Regardless, I would be confident that in this scenario Hamilton, Alonso, Ricciardo and Vettel outscore him over the 10 races.

He is a great guy wheel to wheel in a pure driving sense, arguably the best, but I question his overall effectiveness compared to other elite drivers.

It's very difficult to be completely clean and completely effective, Alonso is the one driver on the grid who IMO recent history suggests comes closest to mastering both, but.... whether he is still operating at that level - I do tend to agree there is a debate to be had. I base my ranking of Alonso over a career rather than the last 12mths. Certainly, before going to McLaren, he was the only guy on the grid whom IMO could have a realistic claim of being in the top 3 most effective and top 3 cleanest drivers on the grid.

Lotus49 · Post by **Lotus49** » Tue Aug 16, 2016 1:10 pm

I'd be tempted to agree with you about JB and your scenario there Badgeronimous.

WHoff78 · Post by **WHoff78** » Tue Aug 16, 2016 7:55 pm

I think a lot of people tend to form opinions without looking at the bigger picture. I think the capability of the car has a huge influence on the approach a driver takes. I would argue that Alonso (and Hamilton perhaps more recently) is very good at adjusting the aggression in order to get consistent results with a view to maximizing points in the WDC race. I Alonso’s last few seasons that hasn’t really been worthwhile which would probably explain why we see more aggression and more mistakes as he looks for the one of race results. I would say Hamilton has generally focused more on one of race results than maximizing points throughout the season for large parts of his career.

rhp1462 · Post by **rhp1462** » Tue Aug 16, 2016 9:15 pm

If we are talking about cleanest driver on the grid, Bottas and Button stand out to me. Are they the best at wheel to wheel? Not by a mile. Ham, Alo, and Ric are top tear as a whole package when it comes to being aggressive and defensive.

mikeyg123 · Post by **mikeyg123** » Wed Aug 17, 2016 5:43 am

Personally I would put Hulk in tier 1.

Superb, clean defensive driver.

Fiki · Post by **Fiki** » Wed Aug 17, 2016 8:39 am

Button

Alonso

The rest

Pullrod · Post by **Pullrod** » Wed Aug 17, 2016 9:33 am

WHoff78 wrote:I think a lot of people tend to form opinions without looking at the bigger picture. I think the capability of the car has a huge influence on the approach a driver takes. I would argue that Alonso (and Hamilton perhaps more recently) is very good at adjusting the aggression in order to get consistent results with a view to maximizing points in the WDC race. I Alonso’s last few seasons that hasn’t really been worthwhile which would probably explain why we see more aggression and more mistakes as he looks for the one of race results. I would say Hamilton has generally focused more on one of race results than maximizing points throughout the season for large parts of his career.

We see more aggression and mistakes from Alonso because he has a teammate who can(and is allowed to) challenge him just like when he was paired with Hamilton in 2007 and in his first races at Ferrari in 2010.

Immagine if Ricciardo or Hamilton could drive as slow as possible just to save their tyres knowing full well that their teammates behind them would not be offered the undercut by the team(Ferrari team dynamics).

Vettel is enjoying this same luxury(as long as he is a little bit faster), so we can conclude it is just the Ferrari(and Briatore I may add) way of doing things.

nixxxon · Post by **nixxxon** » Wed Aug 17, 2016 2:08 pm

I agree with the OP rank in general, although I would not place Rosberg so far down

Exediron · Post by **Exediron** » Wed Aug 17, 2016 7:52 pm

Pullrod wrote:We see more aggression and mistakes from Alonso because he has a teammate who can(and is allowed to) challenge him just like when he was paired with Hamilton in 2007 and in his first races at Ferrari in 2010.

Immagine if Ricciardo or Hamilton could drive as slow as possible just to save their tyres knowing full well that their teammates behind them would not be offered the undercut by the team(Ferrari team dynamics).

Vettel is enjoying this same luxury(as long as he is a little bit faster), so we can conclude it is just the Ferrari(and Briatore I may add) way of doing things.

How many races can you point to where Massa or Kimi were actually the car right behind Alonso at all, and on top of that close enough to undercut him if they wanted to?

Yes, Button is more able to challenge Alonso than either of them were - but that's because he's better (at least at this point in time). If either Kimi or Massa had been anywhere near as close on pace as Button is, they might have been offered some more opportunities - but the fact is, by the time the pit stops started at any given GP between 2010-2014, Alonso's teammate was usually already so far behind it was a moot point.