Who's Had the Best Teammates? (Now With Legends!)

sandman1347 · Post by **sandman1347** » Wed Jul 13, 2016 12:10 am

Below is a list of most of the top drivers and the career statistical achievements of their teammates. Makes for a fun read.

Edit: I've added a couple more drivers from the current grid and some legends from the past! I'll continue to add more in the future.

1. Felipe Massa (14 seasons)-Nick Heidfeld, Giancarlo Fisichella, Jaques Villeneuve, Michael Schumacher, Kimi Raikkonen, Fernando Alonso, Valteri Bottas
Totals: 157 wins 124 poles 400 podiums 11 WDC

2. Nico Rosberg (11 seasons)-Mark Webber, Alex Wurz, Kaz Nakajima, Michael Schumacher, Lewis Hamilton
Totals: 147 wins 136 poles 294 podiums 10 WDC

3. Jenson Button (17 seasons)-Ralf Schumacher, Giancarlo Fisichella, Jaques Villeneuve, Jarno Truli, Takuma Sato, Anthony Davidson, Rubens Barichello, Lewis Hamilton, Sergio Perez, Kevin Magnussen, Fernando Alonso
Totals: 118 wins 118 poles 347 podiums 6 WDC

4. Fernando Alonso (15 seasons)-Tarso Marquez, Alex Yoong, Jarno Truli, Giancarlo Fisichella, Jaques Villeneuve, Lewis Hamilton, Nelso Piquet Jr., Romain Grosjean, Felipe Massa, Kimi Raikkonen, Jenson Button
Totals: 108 wins 116 poles 333 podiums 6 WDC

5. Kimi Raikkonen (14 seasons)-Nick Heidfeld, David Coulthard, Alex Wurz, Pedro de la Rosa, Felipe Massa, Romain Grossjean, Fernando Alonso, Sebastian Vettel
Totals: 105 wins 110 poles 341 podiums 6 WDC

6. Lewis Hamilton (10 seasons)-Fernando Alonso, Heikki Kovaleinen, Jenson Button, Nico Rosberg
Totals: 67 wins 56 poles 198 podiums 3 WDC

7. Ricciardo (6 seasons)-Vitantonio Liuzzi, Jean-Eric Vergne, Sebastian Vettel, Danil Kvyat, Max Verstappen
Totals: 43 wins 46 poles 89 podiums 4 WDC

8. Sebastian Vettel (10 seasons)-Nick Heidfeld, Vitantonio Liuzzi, Sebastian Bourdais, Mark Webber, Daniel Riciardo, Kimi Raikkonen
Totals: 32 wins 31 poles 150 podiums 1 WDC

9. Max Verstappen (2 seasons)-Carlos Sainz, Daniel Ricciardo
Totals: 3 wins 1 pole 11 podiums 0 WDC

Legends

1. Alain Prost (13 seasons)-John Watson, René Arnoux, Eddie Cheever, Niki Lauda, Keke Rosberg, Stefan Johansson, Ayrton Senna, Nigel Mansell, Jean Alesi, Damon Hill
Totals: 137 wins 168 poles 347 podiums 9 WDC

2. Nigel Mansell (15 seasons)-Mario Andretti, Elio de Angelis, Keke Rosberg, Nelson Piquet, Riccardo Patrese, Gerhard Berger, Alain Prost, Damon Hill
Totals: 131 wins 123 poles 338 podiums 10 WDC

3. Niki Lauda (13 seasons)- Nanni Galli, Ronnie Peterson, Jean-Pierre Beltoise, Clay Regazzoni, Peter Gethin, Carlos Reutemann, John Watson, Nelson Piquet, Alain Prost
Totals: 108 wins 84 poles 294 poles 7 WDC

4. Ayrton Senna (11 seasons)-Johnny Cecotto (also a MotoGP champion), Stefan Johansson, Elio de Angelis, Johnny Dumfries, Satoru Nakajima, Alain Prost, Gerhard berger, Michael Andretti, Mika Hakkinen, Damon Hill
Totals: 105 wins 94 poles 269 podiums 7 WDC

5. Michael Schumacher (19 seasons)- Andrea de Cesaris, Nelson Piquet, Martin Brundle, Riccardo Patrese, Jos Verstappen, JJ Lehto, Johnny Hebert, Eddie Irvine, Rubens Barrichello, Felipe Massa, Nico Rosberg
Totals: 77 wins 88 poles 303 podiums 3 WDC

6. Jim Clark (9 Seasons)-Innes Ireland, Alan Stacey, John Surtees, Trevor Taylor, Willy Mairesse, Peter Arundell, Mike Spence, Pedro Rodríguez , Gerhard Mitter, Walt Hansgen, Moisés Solana, Geki (Giacomo Russo), Graham Hill, Eppie Wietzes, Giancarlo Baghetti, Jackie Oliver
Totals: 24 wins 21 poles 79 podiums 3 WDC

Blake · Post by **Blake** » Wed Jul 13, 2016 12:30 am

We know where this is going...

*Cue the fanboy legions*

Blake · Post by **Blake** » Wed Jul 13, 2016 12:52 am

I see a most notable absence on the list, sandman...

You are missing an active driver whose teammates have amassed 11 WDCs, 157 victories, and 371 podiums... all three are the highest total of all those drivers you have listed. I didn't bother with fastest laps totals as I find that a totally meaningless stat.

sandman1347 · Post by **sandman1347** » Wed Jul 13, 2016 1:05 am

Blake wrote:I see a most notable absence on the list, sandman...

You are missing an active driver whose teammates have amassed 11 WDCs, 157 victories, and 371 podiums... all three are the highest total of all those drivers you have listed. I didn't bother with fastest laps totals as I find that a totally meaningless stat.

You must be referring to Felipe Massa! I have amended my post to include him. I considered including Dan and Max but Dan's teammate stats would basically be a copy/paste of Vettel's career numbers and Max's teammate stats would be a copy/paste of Dan's career numbers.

Blake · Post by **Blake** » Wed Jul 13, 2016 1:30 am

Thanks, sandman...

And for all the reasons that I made in my post, I cast my vote for Filipe Massa. the quality of his teammates is one of the reasons that I do value Filipe as much as I do and I find myself often defending him when he gets put down here in the forum. It is hard to run up a great record with the quality of his own teammates.

ReservoirDog · Post by **ReservoirDog** » Wed Jul 13, 2016 4:03 am

LH has 3 titles, not two.

Flash2k11 · Post by **Flash2k11** » Wed Jul 13, 2016 5:00 am

Button's WDC total thing should be 6, no?

Herb · Post by **Herb** » Wed Jul 13, 2016 6:06 am

Flash2k11 wrote:Button's WDC total thing should be 6, no?

As should Alonso's. Had the OP missed out JV's WDC?

But, wouldn't it make more sense to calculate the stats based on whilst they were team mates? Then you could compare achievement a little better.

mikeyg123 · Post by **mikeyg123** » Wed Jul 13, 2016 7:36 am

Button has had the two best but quite a few easy ones. Alonso has had 3 very good ones but only for a season or season and a half. Hamilton has had two of the best as well and only one gimmie.

For depth Hamilton or Massa.

Massa has had probably slightly tougher ones at the top end but also more beatable ones.

mcdo · Post by **mcdo** » Wed Jul 13, 2016 8:42 am

Alain Prost hands down. Or are current drivers the only ones up for discussion?

nixxxon · Post by **nixxxon** » Wed Jul 13, 2016 9:37 am

Alain Prost is obviously missing here, having had Lauda, Keke Rosberg, Senna, Mansell and Hill (total 9 WDC) and 5 different champions.

Nelson Piquet is also missing on the list, he's had Lauda, Mansell and Schumacher as team mates (amongst others) so 11 WDC

lamo · Post by **lamo** » Wed Jul 13, 2016 11:15 am

It is a interesting conversation, but I don't think the way you have displayed the data is the best. I know it is a lot more work but it would be a lot better if it display how many race wins each of those drivers had when partnered with the another driver. The extreme example being Schumacher who had all those titles, poles and wins but didn't set a single one when he partnered Rosberg. Rosberg had 1 pole and 1 win. It also neglects how many seasons they were with the top driver. Rubens had 6 seasons alongside Michael. Hamilton had just one against Alonso, so length of time with top driver is very important.

HS Thompson · Post by **HS Thompson** » Wed Jul 13, 2016 11:42 am

Schumacher had the best teammates. Him having total patsies allowed him to wrack up all those championships.

Jezza13 · Post by **Jezza13** » Wed Jul 13, 2016 11:45 am

HS Thompson wrote:Schumacher had the best teammates. Him having total patsies allowed him to wrack up all those championships.

Best teammates or best contracts ?

nixxxon · Post by **nixxxon** » Wed Jul 13, 2016 11:47 am

HS Thompson wrote:Schumacher had the best teammates. Him having total patsies allowed him to wrack up all those championships.

He had no world champion as team mate except for an old Nelson Piquet who really didnt do bad vs him

lamo · Post by **lamo** » Wed Jul 13, 2016 2:07 pm

I think Rubens probably had about the hardest.

6x seasons with peak Schumacher
4x seasons with Button

Just the 6 alongside Schumacher kind of outweighs anything any other driver has had and then throw in another very good driver like JB for good measure. That is 10 relentless seasons for Rubens

Of the current bunch, it could well be either Rosberg or Hamilton

Nico has had 3x Schumacher and at least 5x Hamilton

Hamilton has had 1x Alonso 3x Button 5x Rosberg but I feel we need to see Rosberg up against one more driver to really gauge how good he is. He destroyed weak team mates over 07,08 and 09 after a decent showing against a peak and established at Williams Webber in 06. 10,11 and 12, was it Schumachers age? So many questions. I would love to see Nico vs Vettel at Ferrari

sandman1347 · Post by **sandman1347** » Wed Jul 13, 2016 2:15 pm

The reason I'm not only counting their stats while they were teammates is that I want to show the collective strength of their competition. For example, if I only included the comparison for while they were teammates, Raikkonen and Button would get almost no credit for their time against Alonso because their cars while teamed together were not good enough to net high results. Of course the flip side is that Nico Rosberg gets full marks for facing an older and rustier Michael Schumacher.

POBRatings · Post by **POBRatings** » Wed Jul 13, 2016 4:01 pm

A very interesting and thought provoking study Sandman!

If you have the energy and time it would be good to see the stats for some other drivers.

As with Schumacher not having a hard time with team-mates, as NIxxon mentioned above here, I'm sure Clark probably had the easiest ride of all.
Of them all surely Prost faced the toughest team-mate of all: Senna.

POBRatings · Post by **POBRatings** » Wed Jul 13, 2016 4:08 pm

sandman1347 wrote:The reason I'm not only counting their stats while they were teammates is that I want to show the collective strength of their competition. For example, if I only included the comparison for while they were teammates, Raikkonen and Button would get almost no credit for their time against Alonso because their cars while teamed together were not good enough to net high results. Of course the flip side is that Nico Rosberg gets full marks for facing an older and rustier Michael Schumacher.

Agreed; each analytical study of F1 shows some aspect that adds to knowledge.

lamo · Post by **lamo** » Wed Jul 13, 2016 4:56 pm

sandman1347 wrote:The reason I'm not only counting their stats while they were teammates is that I want to show the collective strength of their competition. For example, if I only included the comparison for while they were teammates, Raikkonen and Button would get almost no credit for their time against Alonso because their cars while teamed together were not good enough to net high results. Of course the flip side is that Nico Rosberg gets full marks for facing an older and rustier Michael Schumacher.

Yes that is fair enough, I think the years spent with each respective driver is very important though.

Nico could end up having 6 or 7 seasons alongside Hamilton and 3 years against Schumacher. Prost who paired with a lot of great drivers was only with Senna for 2, Lauda for 2 and Mansell and Rosberg for 1 each giving 6 years.

On paper Prost had great team mates but it was 6 seasons of a 13 season career and Rosberg I don't rate top draw, especially by 1986. Also John Watson beat Lauda in 82 and 83 before Prost joined in 1984, so he also got a weaker Lauda than his first career. He did however face a peak Senna and Mansell.

Rubens had Schumacher for 6 straight years right at his peak.

sandman1347 · Post by **sandman1347** » Wed Jul 13, 2016 5:36 pm

lamo wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:The reason I'm not only counting their stats while they were teammates is that I want to show the collective strength of their competition. For example, if I only included the comparison for while they were teammates, Raikkonen and Button would get almost no credit for their time against Alonso because their cars while teamed together were not good enough to net high results. Of course the flip side is that Nico Rosberg gets full marks for facing an older and rustier Michael Schumacher.
Yes that is fair enough, I think the years spent with each respective driver is very important though.

Nico could end up having 6 or 7 seasons alongside Hamilton and 3 years against Schumacher. Prost who paired with a lot of great drivers was only with Senna for 2, Lauda for 2 and Mansell and Rosberg for 1 each giving 6 years.

On paper Prost had great team mates but it was 6 seasons of a 13 season career and Rosberg I don't rate top draw, especially by 1986. Also John Watson beat Lauda in 82 and 83 before Prost joined in 1984, so he also got a weaker Lauda than his first career. He did however face a peak Senna and Mansell.

Rubens had Schumacher for 6 straight years right at his peak.

Yes, it would be interesting to try to derive a meaningful statistic from this data. Certainly the number of years spent with each teammate should act as a multiplier in this formula. Perhaps POB can come up with something!

Alienturnedhuman · Post by **Alienturnedhuman** » Wed Jul 13, 2016 6:39 pm

sandman1347 wrote:The reason I'm not only counting their stats while they were teammates is that I want to show the collective strength of their competition. For example, if I only included the comparison for while they were teammates, Raikkonen and Button would get almost no credit for their time against Alonso because their cars while teamed together were not good enough to net high results. Of course the flip side is that Nico Rosberg gets full marks for facing an older and rustier Michael Schumacher.

I think it would be a fair balance to include the stats for that team mate during the period the driver was an active F1 driver. Therefore, Rosberg would get Schumacher's results from 2006, 2010-2012. Raikkonen and Button would still get all of Alonso's credit. THat way, you are judging them while they are a peer, rather than legacy results (or conversely, future results if we were to compare Piquet to Schumacher)

sandman1347 · Post by **sandman1347** » Wed Jul 13, 2016 8:38 pm

Alienturnedhuman wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:The reason I'm not only counting their stats while they were teammates is that I want to show the collective strength of their competition. For example, if I only included the comparison for while they were teammates, Raikkonen and Button would get almost no credit for their time against Alonso because their cars while teamed together were not good enough to net high results. Of course the flip side is that Nico Rosberg gets full marks for facing an older and rustier Michael Schumacher.
I think it would be a fair balance to include the stats for that team mate during the period the driver was an active F1 driver. Therefore, Rosberg would get Schumacher's results from 2006, 2010-2012. Raikkonen and Button would still get all of Alonso's credit. THat way, you are judging them while they are a peer, rather than legacy results (or conversely, future results if we were to compare Piquet to Schumacher)

I think that's a sensible idea. Might revise to include that perspective when I have some time.

DOLOMITE · Post by **DOLOMITE** » Wed Jul 13, 2016 10:45 pm

it's Ralf..

mcdo · Post by **mcdo** » Thu Jul 14, 2016 9:33 am

DOLOMITE wrote:it's Ralf..

Hammering a 2-time CART champion was nothing to joke about back in the day

Blake · Post by **Blake** » Thu Jul 14, 2016 12:36 pm

"hammering"?

F1 MERCENARY · Post by **F1 MERCENARY** » Thu Jul 14, 2016 2:10 pm

Blake wrote:Thanks, sandman...

And for all the reasons that I made in my post, I cast my vote for Filipe Massa. the quality of his teammates is one of the reasons that I do value Filipe as much as I do and I find myself often defending him when he gets put down here in the forum. It is hard to run up a great record with the quality of his own teammates.

I'm with you 1,000,000% on that. Felipe Baby is one helluva driver and he's too often spoken of as though he's rubbish which is quite far from reality.
I'd be very curious to see him in the other Mercedes alongside Lewis next year. It won't happen, but I would love to see how he stacks up against Lewis.
They, more than any other drivers on the grid have an innate ability to pester and hound one another and neither of them back down to the other.

Plus, by now the best barometer in F1 is Lewis. He's gone up against Fernando, Button, and Nico and each of them have gone up against some pretty stiff competition.

mikeyg123 · Post by **mikeyg123** » Thu Jul 14, 2016 2:18 pm

Blake wrote:"hammering"?

Zanardi?

F1 MERCENARY · Post by **F1 MERCENARY** » Thu Jul 14, 2016 2:44 pm

HS Thompson wrote:Schumacher had the best teammates. Him having total patsies allowed him to wrack up all those championships.

Apparently you missed the fact that NO ONE in the history of the sport sacrificed as much or worked harder to become the best. NONE of his teammates were willing to sacrifice literally everything and exist only to be the best race car driver in the world. Not one.

The problem with Schumacher is that he was so damn good he made elite top tier drivers appear average. That's the kind of good Michael was. His teammates always swore there was more to his cars than their own, but if you read Ross Brawn's take on Michael and how his supreme ability was actually a hinderance to the team because no matter what he could put up almost identical lap times and was always considerably faster than the guy in the other car. As such he couldn't relay to them where the car was lacking most. He learned how to better identify where the cars were lacking as the years wore on but even when cars were a bit lacking he still drove them pretty much as quickly as when the issues were addressed.

Given those are the facts, your opinion on Michael is quite inaccurate. I am quite confident that had he eventually been on the same team as Senna, though the gap would have been closer, he'd have beaten him too. Had he stayed on for one more year, Michael's stats would have increased a tad wee bit more.

I wonder if this guy had to have things scratched out and then corrected. LOL

http://www.thetattoohut.com/schumacher- ... hlci10aGU/

Zoue · Post by **Zoue** » Thu Jul 14, 2016 2:53 pm

F1 MERCENARY wrote:
HS Thompson wrote:Schumacher had the best teammates. Him having total patsies allowed him to wrack up all those championships.
Apparently you missed the fact that NO ONE in the history of the sport sacrificed as much or worked harder to become the best. NONE of his teammates were willing to sacrifice literally everything and exist only to be the best race car driver in the world. Not one.

The problem with Schumacher is that he was so damn good he made elite top tier drivers appear average. That's the kind of good Michael was. His teammates always swore there was more to his cars than their own, but if you read Ross Brawn's take on Michael and how his supreme ability was actually a hinderance to the team because no matter what he could put up almost identical lap times and was always considerably faster than the guy in the other car. As such he couldn't relay to them where the car was lacking most. He learned how to better identify where the cars were lacking as the years wore on but even when cars were a bit lacking he still drove them pretty much as quickly as when the issues were addressed.

Given those are the facts, your opinion on Michael is quite inaccurate. I am quite confident that had he eventually been on the same team as Senna, though the gap would have been closer, he'd have beaten him too. Had he stayed on for one more year, Michael's stats would have increased a tad wee bit more.

I wonder if this guy had to have things scratched out and then corrected. LOL

http://www.thetattoohut.com/schumacher- ... hlci10aGU/

Agree with you on SChumacher, except for the Senna part, although that's highly subjective!

Also agree that if he'd stayed behind just one more year his record would have improved again.

sandman1347 · Post by **sandman1347** » Thu Jul 14, 2016 3:51 pm

F1 MERCENARY wrote:
Blake wrote:Thanks, sandman...

And for all the reasons that I made in my post, I cast my vote for Filipe Massa. the quality of his teammates is one of the reasons that I do value Filipe as much as I do and I find myself often defending him when he gets put down here in the forum. It is hard to run up a great record with the quality of his own teammates.

I'm with you 1,000,000% on that. Felipe Baby is one helluva driver and he's too often spoken of as though he's rubbish which is quite far from reality.
I'd be very curious to see him in the other Mercedes alongside Lewis next year. It won't happen, but I would love to see how he stacks up against Lewis.
They, more than any other drivers on the grid have an innate ability to pester and hound one another and neither of them back down to the other.

Plus, by now the best barometer in F1 is Lewis. He's gone up against Fernando, Button, and Nico and each of them have gone up against some pretty stiff competition.

I'm not a Felipe fan. I think he causes a lot of accidents with the way he drives and finds ways to avoid punishment (always thinking it's the other guy's fault). In terms of talent, he's definitely quite good but I see no reason to believe he'd be any closer to Hamilton than he was to Alonso.

sandman1347 · Post by **sandman1347** » Thu Jul 14, 2016 4:08 pm

F1 MERCENARY wrote:
HS Thompson wrote:Schumacher had the best teammates. Him having total patsies allowed him to wrack up all those championships.
Apparently you missed the fact that NO ONE in the history of the sport sacrificed as much or worked harder to become the best. NONE of his teammates were willing to sacrifice literally everything and exist only to be the best race car driver in the world. Not one.

The problem with Schumacher is that he was so damn good he made elite top tier drivers appear average. That's the kind of good Michael was. His teammates always swore there was more to his cars than their own, but if you read Ross Brawn's take on Michael and how his supreme ability was actually a hinderance to the team because no matter what he could put up almost identical lap times and was always considerably faster than the guy in the other car. As such he couldn't relay to them where the car was lacking most. He learned how to better identify where the cars were lacking as the years wore on but even when cars were a bit lacking he still drove them pretty much as quickly as when the issues were addressed.

Given those are the facts, your opinion on Michael is quite inaccurate. I am quite confident that had he eventually been on the same team as Senna, though the gap would have been closer, he'd have beaten him too. Had he stayed on for one more year, Michael's stats would have increased a tad wee bit more.

I wonder if this guy had to have things scratched out and then corrected. LOL

http://www.thetattoohut.com/schumacher- ... hlci10aGU/

I think you've gone too far here. Sure, Michael was great and yes, he was the best of his era. The reality though is that during his dominant years, he was never teamed with an elite driver and his teammates were never actually competing against him (and both drivers knew it). The top guys from the previous era had all retired or died by the time Michael won his first title and, aside from Hakkinen (who was only a rival for a brief time), there were no top shelf drivers during his era until Alonso came of age and had a competitive car (which was after Michael had already won 7 championships). He won his titles against guys like Damon Hill (a solid driver but nowhere near Senna or Prost when he teammed with them), Hakkinen (Really good but not much better than DC), Montoya (fast but eratic and inconsistent) and a very young Raikkonen in an inferior car (a driver who has been exposed against some of today's best).

About a third of the wins in Michael's teammate analysis and all three titles come from his brief time as Piquet's teammate during his rookie season. If not for that, the CVs of the drivers he faced would be shockingly paltry; with Rosberg (a driver who beat him convincingly three straight years) making up the lion's share of the stats.

Michael should be applauded for his hard work and dedication but part of that work was putting in thousands of kilometers on Ferrari's private test track with Bridgestone involved to tailor the tires perfectly to the car. Michael had the deck stacked in his favor like no other driver in history. That's why when you look at the statistical leader boards you see several drivers with 20-something wins, a few in the 30s and 40s and then Michael with 91! It was the most boring and lopsided era in F1 history.

Also I couldn't disagree more with your speculation about how Michael would have stacked up against Senna. I watched both men race in their prime and, for me, Senna has the edge.

mikeyg123 · Post by **mikeyg123** » Thu Jul 14, 2016 6:30 pm

I think the point is that without Schumacher drivers like Barrichello, Coulthard etc may well have been considered top tier. Someone would have to have won those 7 WDC. Who ever took a few would be talked about as a top driver. It could be the case that Schumacher was so good that others appeared less so.

sandman1347 · Post by **sandman1347** » Thu Jul 14, 2016 6:59 pm

mikeyg123 wrote:I think the point is that without Schumacher drivers like Barrichello, Coulthard etc may well have been considered top tier. Someone would have to have won those 7 WDC. Who ever took a few would be talked about as a top driver. It could be the case that Schumacher was so good that others appeared less so.

Not likely when you think about it. Racing is a sport where only you and your teammate are truly on a level playing field (and that's not even always the case). When we look at the drivers that Schumacher was actually in direct competition with for WDCs during his prime years; we find guys like Damon Hill, Jaques Villeneuve, Mika Hakkinen, David Coulthard and Kimi Raikkonen. With the exception of Hakkinen, I think we can look at how each of these drivers has compared to their teammates to understand that they were not top-shelf talent. We also glaringly do not have the ability to look at Michael compared to a top shelf teammate (he never had one).

Both Rubens and Massa were pretty strong but neither was actually in competition with him. You have to process the radical difference between a situation where both drivers are trying to win the title and a situation where one driver is trying to win it and the other knows that he will not be able to win it under almost any circumstance. Once Alonso emerged as a title contender, Michael retired and when he came back, people decided that he must be diminished from what he once was (not an unreasonable assumption but an assumption none the less) and that's why he couldn't beat Rosberg.

The playing field in motor racing is not constant. For a long time it seemed that Valentino Rossi was on a different planet than anyone else in MotoGP but the arrival of younger faster riders has dramatically skewed that perception.

For me, Michael is sort of like Sebastian Vettel. Clearly great and talented with all the tools you need to win titles and the track record to prove it but, none the less, without a really good benchmark to compare him to the other greats and with a track record that includes defeat to a fast (but non-WDC) teammate.

HS Thompson · Post by **HS Thompson** » Thu Jul 14, 2016 7:20 pm

F1 MERCENARY wrote:
HS Thompson wrote:Schumacher had the best teammates. Him having total patsies allowed him to wrack up all those championships.
Apparently you missed the fact that NO ONE in the history of the sport sacrificed as much or worked harder to become the best. NONE of his teammates were willing to sacrifice literally everything and exist only to be the best race car driver in the world. Not one.

The problem with Schumacher is that he was so damn good he made elite top tier drivers appear average. That's the kind of good Michael was. His teammates always swore there was more to his cars than their own, but if you read Ross Brawn's take on Michael and how his supreme ability was actually a hinderance to the team because no matter what he could put up almost identical lap times and was always considerably faster than the guy in the other car. As such he couldn't relay to them where the car was lacking most. He learned how to better identify where the cars were lacking as the years wore on but even when cars were a bit lacking he still drove them pretty much as quickly as when the issues were addressed.

Given those are the facts, your opinion on Michael is quite inaccurate. I am quite confident that had he eventually been on the same team as Senna, though the gap would have been closer, he'd have beaten him too. Had he stayed on for one more year, Michael's stats would have increased a tad wee bit more.

I wonder if this guy had to have things scratched out and then corrected. LOL

Pure speculation on your part, of which I categorically reject. Senna gave everything he had to Formula One. Not one drop left in reserve.

HS Thompson · Post by **HS Thompson** » Thu Jul 14, 2016 7:22 pm

sandman1347 wrote:

Also I couldn't disagree more with your speculation about how Michael would have stacked up against Senna. I watched both men race in their prime and, for me, Senna has the edge.

Not only does Senna have an edge, he has a *massive* edge of Schumacher.

I watched both and can clearly see that Senna was in another league.

HS Thompson · Post by **HS Thompson** » Thu Jul 14, 2016 7:23 pm

sandman1347 wrote: Michael had the deck stacked in his favor like no other driver in history.

This. Absolutely this.

Invade · Post by **Invade** » Thu Jul 14, 2016 7:24 pm

HS Thompson wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:

Also I couldn't disagree more with your speculation about how Michael would have stacked up against Senna. I watched both men race in their prime and, for me, Senna has the edge.
Not only does Senna have an edge, he has a *massive* edge of Schumacher.

I watched both and can clearly see that Senna was in another league.

Who do you believe is in league with Senna, if anyone?

HS Thompson · Post by **HS Thompson** » Thu Jul 14, 2016 7:40 pm

Invade wrote:
HS Thompson wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:

Also I couldn't disagree more with your speculation about how Michael would have stacked up against Senna. I watched both men race in their prime and, for me, Senna has the edge.
Not only does Senna have an edge, he has a *massive* edge of Schumacher.

I watched both and can clearly see that Senna was in another league.
Who do you believe is in league with Senna, if anyone?

In my viewing life, Prost was as close as anyone has ever come.

LKS1 · Post by **LKS1** » Fri Jul 15, 2016 2:11 am

F1 MERCENARY wrote:
HS Thompson wrote:Schumacher had the best teammates. Him having total patsies allowed him to wrack up all those championships.
Apparently you missed the fact that NO ONE in the history of the sport sacrificed as much or worked harder to become the best. NONE of his teammates were willing to sacrifice literally everything and exist only to be the best race car driver in the world. Not one.

The problem with Schumacher is that he was so damn good he made elite top tier drivers appear average. That's the kind of good Michael was. His teammates always swore there was more to his cars than their own, but if you read Ross Brawn's take on Michael and how his supreme ability was actually a hinderance to the team because no matter what he could put up almost identical lap times and was always considerably faster than the guy in the other car. As such he couldn't relay to them where the car was lacking most. He learned how to better identify where the cars were lacking as the years wore on but even when cars were a bit lacking he still drove them pretty much as quickly as when the issues were addressed.

Given those are the facts, your opinion on Michael is quite inaccurate. I am quite confident that had he eventually been on the same team as Senna, though the gap would have been closer, he'd have beaten him too. Had he stayed on for one more year, Michael's stats would have increased a tad wee bit more.

I wonder if this guy had to have things scratched out and then corrected. LOL

http://www.thetattoohut.com/schumacher- ... hlci10aGU/

I agree with most of this, but Barri admitted he and Schumi had equally good cars. Ferrari had enough money to ensure they had 2 equally good cars - unlike Renault in '05 and '06 when they couldn't afford to provide Alonso and Fisi with equally good cars.

Irvine, Barri and Massa were undoubtedly the No. 2 drivers in the team, but team orders were rarely used (and not at all after '02 IIRC). Their status was shown by Schumi enjoying the best strategies and the team/car being developed around Schumi.

It has to be remembered that Alonso too enjoyed the privileges of being the No. 1 driver during his time at both Renault and Ferrari, and also benefited from team orders - not to mention 1) having his team mate's car tampered with to give him a better grid position and 2) the team having his team mate crash to better his chances!

Hamilton too was the clear No. 1 whilst Heikki was his team mate, and has also enjoyed team orders in his favour at Merc.

Schumi showed his class during the short time he was racing Senna, and for another poster to say that Senna was in "another league" is clearly ridiculous.