Raikkonen vs Vettel

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Who will finish higher in points this season

Raikkonen
11
22%
Vettel
37
74%
Equal Points
2
4%
 
Total votes: 50

baksonlee
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Raikkonen vs Vettel

Post by baksonlee »

A lot of people had already written Kimi off before the start of the season, but he is wiping the floor with Vettel this season.

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mcdo
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Re: Raikkonen vs Vettel

Post by mcdo »

baksonlee wrote:he is wiping the floor with Vettel this season

This is going to go down well
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Re: Raikkonen vs Vettel

Post by Jezza13 »

Wiping the floor ? Really ?

An 8 point lead is now classed as wiping the floor ?

This has to be a wind up.

For what it's worth, I still think Vettel will finish higher though neither of them is exactly setting the world on fire.
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Re: Raikkonen vs Vettel

Post by IDrinkYourMilkshake »

Good job mods. I created a thread where I used ONLY STATS and facts to discuss the demerits of Raikkonen. You labelled it as "obvious bash thread" and locked it.

And this thread, grounded in fantasy, is allowed to continue. I guess you guys know that catering the the huge number of Raikkonen fans is better than catering to the smaller number of forumers who use statistics and objectivity, ethics be damned.

Good job mods. :)

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Re: Raikkonen vs Vettel

Post by mikeyg123 »

IDrinkYourMilkshake wrote:Good job mods. I created a thread where I used ONLY STATS and facts to discuss the demerits of Raikkonen. You labelled it as "obvious bash thread" and locked it.

And this thread, grounded in fantasy, is allowed to continue. I guess you guys know that catering the the huge number of Raikkonen fans is better than catering to the smaller number of forumers who use statistics and objectivity, ethics be damned.

Good job mods. :)


Perhaps the mods haven't seen it yet?

I do agree with you though. Your thread (which was a bash thread and you know it) was at least touching reality.

To answer the OP. Vettel has been significantly better but significantly unluckier.

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Re: Raikkonen vs Vettel

Post by Invade »

Vettel's bad luck appears to be affecting his form as well now, though.

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Re: Raikkonen vs Vettel

Post by sandman1347 »

Vettel should still take it over the season but he's not having as strong of a year as he did last year and neither is Ferrari. Ferrari were expecting this season to be about catching Mercedes; instead it has become more about being surpassed by Red Bull.

Above all else, Vettel showed incredible consistency last year. Sure he won some races but it was his ability to consistently finish on that last step of the podium and qualify on the first 2 rows that was impressive. That was Alonso-like consistency from a driver in the second best car and I don't think he could have done much better.

This year that consistency is gone. Part of that is down to a string of mechanical problems and the resultant grid penalties but part of it is Sebastian himself. He has made some mistakes this year and they have cost him. In this last race he was in position to climb into the top 5 before spinning and losing a bunch of positions and time. He is not in his best form right now and this season is not going well. If Ferrari are smart, they will have already written this year off and are focusing on next year's car entirely.

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Re: Raikkonen vs Vettel

Post by mikeyg123 »

Invade wrote:Vettel's bad luck appears to be affecting his form as well now, though.


Aside from the past race, when?

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nixxxon
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Re: Raikkonen vs Vettel

Post by nixxxon »

Kimi appears to be much closer to Vettel this season, and using logic should have been the other way round because Kimi is getting older and older.

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IDrinkYourMilkshake
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Re: Raikkonen vs Vettel

Post by IDrinkYourMilkshake »

mikeyg123 wrote:
IDrinkYourMilkshake wrote:Good job mods. I created a thread where I used ONLY STATS and facts to discuss the demerits of Raikkonen. You labelled it as "obvious bash thread" and locked it.

And this thread, grounded in fantasy, is allowed to continue. I guess you guys know that catering the the huge number of Raikkonen fans is better than catering to the smaller number of forumers who use statistics and objectivity, ethics be damned.

Good job mods. :)


Perhaps the mods haven't seen it yet?

I do agree with you though. Your thread (which was a bash thread and you know it) was at least touching reality.

To answer the OP. Vettel has been significantly better but significantly unluckier.


I am massively disappointed with Raikkonen wasting a seat at my favourite seat, I do not care about his performance, and I spoke against it. But I spoke against it using comparisons with teammates, comparisons with drivers in other cars.

Is dismissing a driver because you think he isn't good enough and giving facts for it, a bash?

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Re: Raikkonen vs Vettel

Post by Herb »

nixxxon wrote:Kimi appears to be much closer to Vettel this season, and using logic should have been the other way round because Kimi is getting older and older.


I'm pretty sure they are aging at the same rate.... ;)

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Re: Raikkonen vs Vettel

Post by nixxxon »

Herb wrote:
nixxxon wrote:Kimi appears to be much closer to Vettel this season, and using logic should have been the other way round because Kimi is getting older and older.


I'm pretty sure they are aging at the same rate.... ;)

Thank you for pointing that out, I thought Vettel had an ethernal youth potion.

Kimi is 36 now, oldest on the grid. When you are this age, in theory you should have lost some of the speed and reflexes you once had

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Re: Raikkonen vs Vettel

Post by F1 MERCENARY »

mikeyg123 wrote:Perhaps the mods haven't seen it yet?

I do agree with you though. Your thread (which was a bash thread and you know it) was at least touching reality.

To answer the OP. Vettel has been significantly better but significantly unluckier.

At times Vettel has been better and at times Kimi has been better. Significantly is not an adjective I'd use in differentiating either one from another and both have had their share of bad luck. They're about as even steven down the line as any teammates in F1 currently outside of Qualifying, where Vettel gets the edge but Vettel is a specialist when it comes to Qualy, and even then it's not a huge advantage.
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Re: Raikkonen vs Vettel

Post by Invade »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Invade wrote:Vettel's bad luck appears to be affecting his form as well now, though.


Aside from the past race, when?


I did say "now". As in, only very recently. It might be starting to get to him. Generally he's been good, and I'd say deeefinitely better than Kimi even though he's behind on points.

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Re: Raikkonen vs Vettel

Post by Invade »

IDrinkYourMilkshake wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
IDrinkYourMilkshake wrote:Good job mods. I created a thread where I used ONLY STATS and facts to discuss the demerits of Raikkonen. You labelled it as "obvious bash thread" and locked it.

And this thread, grounded in fantasy, is allowed to continue. I guess you guys know that catering the the huge number of Raikkonen fans is better than catering to the smaller number of forumers who use statistics and objectivity, ethics be damned.

Good job mods. :)


Perhaps the mods haven't seen it yet?

I do agree with you though. Your thread (which was a bash thread and you know it) was at least touching reality.

To answer the OP. Vettel has been significantly better but significantly unluckier.


I am massively disappointed with Raikkonen wasting a seat at my favourite seat, I do not care about his performance, and I spoke against it. But I spoke against it using comparisons with teammates, comparisons with drivers in other cars.

Is dismissing a driver because you think he isn't good enough and giving facts for it, a bash?


How would you feel about Ferrari snapping up #44 in the future?

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Re: Raikkonen vs Vettel

Post by Zoue »

I'd say until Austria Vettel has looked easily the quicker of the two. In Austria Kimi seemed to have his measure and Sioverstone on paper seemed to be in his favour, too. (I say on paper because I unfortunately had to miss the race on TV and have to base my impressions on the stats alone, which I know are not always representative).

But overall I'd say the stats don't really reflect the drivers' comparative performances. Kimi has done reasonably well, but I miss any sense of menace from him that I sometimes get from Vettel. I think Vettel is the better driver and has a wider operating window to boot. If we remove luck from the equation I'd say Vettel should finish ahead without too much trouble

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Re: Raikkonen vs Vettel

Post by F1 MERCENARY »

nixxxon wrote:
Herb wrote:
nixxxon wrote:Kimi appears to be much closer to Vettel this season, and using logic should have been the other way round because Kimi is getting older and older.


I'm pretty sure they are aging at the same rate.... ;)

Thank you for pointing that out, I thought Vettel had an ethernal youth potion.

Kimi is 36 now, oldest on the grid. When you are this age, in theory you should have lost some of the speed and reflexes you once had

Sorry but I don't buy into this. Reflexes do not diminish with people who work to keep them at their peek.
Most of these guys also partake in other, more physical activities which work their reflexes in different ways so they can and do remain at their peek into their 40's. Alonso yesterday showed exemplary reflexes, dare I say… as good as ever. So did Button and Massa too.
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Re: Raikkonen vs Vettel

Post by Pullrod »

I am not sure if the OP is serious or not.
Anyone who still believe Kimi can beat a top driver should change sport.. really..

And if it does happen for some strange reason, they should both(Vettel and Kimi) do the right thing and retire.

I don't enjoy Raikkonen performances and this guy doesn't look the driver who was in McLaren many years ago. I have no idea why his fans enjoy this embarassement. I know I would be very very disappointed if he was my man.

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Re: Raikkonen vs Vettel

Post by Bigbazz »

I think 36 is not old enough to lose speed, most drivers who get older are losing motivation/focus rather than speed, they lose the burning passion for it, causing them to not fully commit mentally. Driving is not something that really requires you to be super young, in the 1990s it was common to see veteran drivers at the top levels of motorsport competitive even into their late 40s, competitive with some of the fastest young guns on pure pace.

I think Kimi has had issues with the car not suiting him and issues with motivation over the last few years that have hindered him, but he has shown quite clearly he's still very fast. Vettel is a 4 time world champion and has done some unbelievable qualifying performances in the past, it's not unreasonable to think he would be faster than Kimi even if they were the same age.

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Re: Raikkonen vs Vettel

Post by motorfinger »

F1 MERCENARY wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:Perhaps the mods haven't seen it yet?

I do agree with you though. Your thread (which was a bash thread and you know it) was at least touching reality.

To answer the OP. Vettel has been significantly better but significantly unluckier.

At times Vettel has been better and at times Kimi has been better. Significantly is not an adjective I'd use in differentiating either one from another and both have had their share of bad luck. They're about as even steven down the line as any teammates in F1 currently outside of Qualifying, where Vettel gets the edge but Vettel is a specialist when it comes to Qualy, and even then it's not a huge advantage.

Pretty much this :thumbup:

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Re: Raikkonen vs Vettel

Post by mcdo »

Herb wrote:
nixxxon wrote:Kimi appears to be much closer to Vettel this season, and using logic should have been the other way round because Kimi is getting older and older.


I'm pretty sure they are aging at the same rate.... ;)

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Re: Raikkonen vs Vettel

Post by nixxxon »

F1 MERCENARY wrote:
nixxxon wrote:
Herb wrote:
nixxxon wrote:Kimi appears to be much closer to Vettel this season, and using logic should have been the other way round because Kimi is getting older and older.


I'm pretty sure they are aging at the same rate.... ;)

Thank you for pointing that out, I thought Vettel had an ethernal youth potion.

Kimi is 36 now, oldest on the grid. When you are this age, in theory you should have lost some of the speed and reflexes you once had

Sorry but I don't buy into this. Reflexes do not diminish with people who work to keep them at their peek.
Most of these guys also partake in other, more physical activities which work their reflexes in different ways so they can and do remain at their peek into their 40's. Alonso yesterday showed exemplary reflexes, dare I say… as good as ever. So did Button and Massa too.

So why do drivers retire at a certain age then?
That doesnt save anyone neither Alonso. Maybe if he was several years younger he wouldn't have spun at turn 1.
Schumacher was definitely not the same as he used to be in his Mercedes return.

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Re: Raikkonen vs Vettel

Post by Pullrod »

nixxxon wrote:
F1 MERCENARY wrote:
nixxxon wrote:
Herb wrote:
nixxxon wrote:Kimi appears to be much closer to Vettel this season, and using logic should have been the other way round because Kimi is getting older and older.


I'm pretty sure they are aging at the same rate.... ;)

Thank you for pointing that out, I thought Vettel had an ethernal youth potion.

Kimi is 36 now, oldest on the grid. When you are this age, in theory you should have lost some of the speed and reflexes you once had

Sorry but I don't buy into this. Reflexes do not diminish with people who work to keep them at their peek.
Most of these guys also partake in other, more physical activities which work their reflexes in different ways so they can and do remain at their peek into their 40's. Alonso yesterday showed exemplary reflexes, dare I say… as good as ever. So did Button and Massa too.

So why do drivers retire at a certain age then?
That doesnt save anyone neither Alonso. Maybe if he was several years younger he wouldn't have spun at turn 1.
Schumacher was definitely not the same as he used to be in his Mercedes return.


I think it is the "gap years" that is the problem(like many pro athletes will tell you).
as long as you stay in the sport without any interruption(like Valentino Rossi) I think that age is just a number.
An older driver may struggle to adapt to new regulations or driving styles but I think that if he is talented and applies himself he can drive until 40.

Schumacher should have not retired in 2006!! It was a big big mistake.
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Re: Raikkonen vs Vettel

Post by Fiki »

Good, that floor needed cleaning!
Everything depends on whether the team develops the car sufficiently, and sufficiently in the direction Räikkönen needs. That would be a first, but I will help Kimi hope so. But it is clearly much more to his needs than the previous car, and miles better than his 2014 one.
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Re: Raikkonen vs Vettel

Post by Bigbazz »

nixxxon wrote:
F1 MERCENARY wrote:
nixxxon wrote:
Herb wrote:
nixxxon wrote:Kimi appears to be much closer to Vettel this season, and using logic should have been the other way round because Kimi is getting older and older.


I'm pretty sure they are aging at the same rate.... ;)

Thank you for pointing that out, I thought Vettel had an ethernal youth potion.

Kimi is 36 now, oldest on the grid. When you are this age, in theory you should have lost some of the speed and reflexes you once had

Sorry but I don't buy into this. Reflexes do not diminish with people who work to keep them at their peek.
Most of these guys also partake in other, more physical activities which work their reflexes in different ways so they can and do remain at their peek into their 40's. Alonso yesterday showed exemplary reflexes, dare I say… as good as ever. So did Button and Massa too.

So why do drivers retire at a certain age then?
That doesnt save anyone neither Alonso. Maybe if he was several years younger he wouldn't have spun at turn 1.
Schumacher was definitely not the same as he used to be in his Mercedes return.


Plenty of people several years younger than Alonso also span on the same corner, in easier to drive cars. Schumacher had come back from a break where he had been wasting away for 3 years, returned to a mostly uncompetitive car that wasn't suited to his driving style.

If you look at telemetry at Schumacher in his old dominant days he had a habbit in his driving style of using throttle and brake together, this was part of his advantage especially in the traction control cars. Now if you look back to his 2010+ career there are numerous occasions of him being told to not do this, so there was a clear difference in how these cars had to be driven that didn't work well with his style, a learning curve.

https://www.scribd.com/document/3663468 ... arrichello - Telemetry article.


Still he didn't do too bad and even managed that pole position at Monaco on one of the rare occasions that the car was competitive.. But it was clear that his motivation wasn't there and his heart wasn't really in it, especially in 2012.

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Re: Raikkonen vs Vettel

Post by moby »

Could be we are seeing the result of 95% commitment v 105% commitment.
Softly softly catche mousie.

A first or bust effort often equals a bust, where as just go with the flow gets some result even if not the best possible .

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Re: Raikkonen vs Vettel

Post by mikeyg123 »

moby wrote:Could be we are seeing the result of 95% commitment v 105% commitment.
Softly softly catche mousie.

A first or bust effort often equals a bust, where as just go with the flow gets some result even if not the best possible .


I don't think you can put it down to that when Vettel's gearbox goes a 1/5 into its cycle.

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Re: Raikkonen vs Vettel

Post by Nosebuckle »

What is OP trying to accomplish here other than to whip up emotion? I'll be the first to admit I'm a Raikkonen fan but I'm not so delusional as to believe he's going to actually beat Vettel this year. Luck has clearly swung away from him in recent races (although in spite of his gearbox penalty in Britain, he otherwise drove a terrible race). Vettel is simply a better driver and I don't think it takes much away from Kimi to say that; he's 4x WDC, there's little shame in being beaten by an incredibly talented peer. With a bit of luck in 2003 & 2005, Kimi may well be a 3x WDC today but that's not the case.

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Re: Raikkonen vs Vettel

Post by Paolo_Lasardi »

Vettel. No doubt.

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Re: Raikkonen vs Vettel

Post by pokerman »

baksonlee wrote:A lot of people had already written Kimi off before the start of the season, but he is wiping the floor with Vettel this season.

A combination of poor reliability, grid penalties, poor strategy and cars crashing into Vettel and we have Kimi with an 8 point lead, it feels like Vettel is having one of Hamilton's McLaren seasons, some of us can see things for what they are.
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Re: Raikkonen vs Vettel

Post by Maranello1 »

Vettel's season is a comedy of errors and he's down 8 points. It's Vettel and it's not really debatable.

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Re: Raikkonen vs Vettel

Post by Colesy917 »

Zoue wrote:I'd say until Austria Vettel has looked easily the quicker of the two. In Austria Kimi seemed to have his measure and Sioverstone on paper seemed to be in his favour, too. (I say on paper because I unfortunately had to miss the race on TV and have to base my impressions on the stats alone, which I know are not always representative).

But overall I'd say the stats don't really reflect the drivers' comparative performances. Kimi has done reasonably well, but I miss any sense of menace from him that I sometimes get from Vettel. I think Vettel is the better driver and has a wider operating window to boot. If we remove luck from the equation I'd say Vettel should finish ahead without too much trouble
Good summary.

IDrinkYourMilkshake wrote:
And this thread, grounded in fantasy, is allowed to continue. I guess you guys know that catering the the huge number of Raikkonen fans is better than catering to the smaller number of forumers who use statistics and objectivity, ethics be damned.
It might help your cause if you stopped labelling every single Raikkonen fan as an irrational fanboy. I agree with a lot of what you even as a Raikkonen fan but the non-stop posts and threads get tiring.
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Re: Raikkonen vs Vettel

Post by F1 MERCENARY »

nixxxon wrote:
F1 MERCENARY wrote:
nixxxon wrote:
Herb wrote:
nixxxon wrote:Kimi appears to be much closer to Vettel this season, and using logic should have been the other way round because Kimi is getting older and older.


I'm pretty sure they are aging at the same rate.... ;)

Thank you for pointing that out, I thought Vettel had an ethernal youth potion.

Kimi is 36 now, oldest on the grid. When you are this age, in theory you should have lost some of the speed and reflexes you once had

Sorry but I don't buy into this. Reflexes do not diminish with people who work to keep them at their peek.
Most of these guys also partake in other, more physical activities which work their reflexes in different ways so they can and do remain at their peek into their 40's. Alonso yesterday showed exemplary reflexes, dare I say… as good as ever. So did Button and Massa too.

So why do drivers retire at a certain age then?
That doesnt save anyone neither Alonso. Maybe if he was several years younger he wouldn't have spun at turn 1.
Schumacher was definitely not the same as he used to be in his Mercedes return.

Schumacher… Let's see, he was trying to work out the kinks and deficiencies of the car he hopped into in 2010 and it took 3 years for all his and Nico's work to culminate into a better car. Had he stayed on I'd go all in on him doing as well, if not better than Hamilton.

As for Alonso, he was driving the wheels off that car to the very limit and that was the only major bible he had and he was not the only one who lost it there. A good number of the top guys also lost it into the washout at turn 1. There was an odd draft in that area of the track and seemed to create a sudden change in pressure over the aero and the cars would snap. And less we forget that for all the hype McLaren are talking about their chassis, it's still not as good as they are claiming. Both Button and Alonso struggle with it from rack to track.
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Re: Raikkonen vs Vettel

Post by Jezza13 »

baksonlee wrote:A lot of people had already written Kimi off before the start of the season, but he is wiping the floor with Vettel this season.


Floor didn't end up too clean did it baksonlee?

Sorry ya'll. Been waiting 6 months to put this epilogue to one of the dumbest threads I have read on this forum
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Re: Raikkonen vs Vettel

Post by trento »

Vettel is still slightly quicker but I think Ferrari rewards Kimi for being a team player.

I doubt Kimi will play the team game if he were fighting for the title but that's another thing.

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Re: Raikkonen vs Vettel

Post by Exediron »

trento wrote:Vettel is still slightly quicker but I think Ferrari rewards Kimi for being a team player.

I doubt Kimi will play the team game if he were fighting for the title but that's another thing.

He was pretty team-minded when he and Massa were fighting for the title, so I think you might be surprised.

Seb on the other hand, not so sure.
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Re: Raikkonen vs Vettel

Post by lamo »

Exediron wrote:
trento wrote:Vettel is still slightly quicker but I think Ferrari rewards Kimi for being a team player.

I doubt Kimi will play the team game if he were fighting for the title but that's another thing.

He was pretty team-minded when he and Massa were fighting for the title, so I think you might be surprised.

Seb on the other hand, not so sure.


He only moved over for him once in China 2008 but Massa did the same for him in Brazil 2007

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Re: Raikkonen vs Vettel

Post by moby »

OK, here is a Q for you all. You are Horner, and for some reason you can do a swap of Daniel with Ferrari for one driver. Which one do you take?

Last year it looked like a no-brainer, now it is not.

Paolo_Lasardi
Posts: 2566
Joined: Sat May 26, 2012 2:04 pm

Re: Raikkonen vs Vettel

Post by Paolo_Lasardi »

moby wrote:OK, here is a Q for you all. You are Horner, and for some reason you can do a swap of Daniel with Ferrari for one driver. Which one do you take?

Last year it looked like a no-brainer, now it is not.


Sainz.

And Gasly for the vacated STR seat.

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Pole2Win
Posts: 926
Joined: Fri Jan 27, 2012 3:57 am
Location: Brazil

Re: Raikkonen vs Vettel

Post by Pole2Win »

IMO Vettel should be very concerned at a closely contested season against an aging Raikkonen who was also hampered by several botched strategy calls, but that's just me...
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"Ask any racer, any real racer... It don't matter if you win by an inch or a mile. Winning is winning." (Dominic Toretto, "The Fast and The Furious")

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