Hamilton vs rosberg. Part 265

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Who was at fault

Lewis
27
16%
Nico
142
84%
 
Total votes: 169

trento
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Re: Hamilton vs rosberg. Part 265

Post by trento »

The stewards tend to be lenient when the consequence to the affected driver is minimal. In Hamilton's case, he came out of it better. I suspect there would be further punishment for Rosberg had Hamilton lost the lead or retired.

It was a terrible move from Rosberg. It could have been 2nd place for him but he tried too hard and yet not hard enough. Those few points lost would surely come back to haunt him if the title race is won by only a few.

Imo, Rosberg's main problem is he's neither too ruthless as a racer, nor is he the fastest guy out there. Hamilton always comes out of these tussles better. If positions were reversed, I'm quite sure Hamilton would also win the battle.

This is why Rosberg will never win the title.

trento
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Re: Hamilton vs rosberg. Part 265

Post by trento »

babararacucudada wrote:Rosbeg made the corner by braking longer in a straight line.
He did turn into the corner before Hamilton hit him.

https://streamable.com/dmx4
yes, but he took the widest line possible, which of course, most defending drivers would do. Unfortunately, it was Hamilton he was racing.

lamo

Re: Hamilton vs rosberg. Part 265

Post by lamo »

Lord Crc wrote:While looking for the rules, I found this nice article which also analyses several of the Lewis and Nico incidents in 2014: https://f1metrics.wordpress.com/2014/08 ... of-racing/
That is a good article. I agree with it too, Bahrain - Hamilton went over the line a bit. Spa - Nico did. Hungary and Canada were just hard racing.

There accidents this year are much more extreme.

trento
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Re: Hamilton vs rosberg. Part 265

Post by trento »

Zblogger wrote:
Blinky McSquinty wrote:
Asphalt_World wrote:
babararacucudada wrote:US GP 2015

https://vimeo.com/145358742
That is the most perfect video, along with today's of course, which shows what is blatantly wrong with F1 at the moment.

Nico drove pathetically at the corner today, but what he did has been done many times before by other drivers and he's been on the receiving end of the same from Lewis.

The stewards need their heads banging together and the drivers all need telling how you should pass/defend for position.
I fully agree, this is the source of the issue(s). IMO it is because a driver does not need to respect anyone else, and drive in questionable or dirty ways. The respect and gentlemanly conduct has long disappeared, gone the way of outmoded ethical standards. Welcome to 2016.
That video shows a perfectly legal racing manoeuvre. I.e. You attempt to make the corner hit the apex are ahead on the exit and have track position then youare allowed use the full width of the track on exit.

Today Hamilton was ahead on the outside Rosberg has the inside line but made no attempt to hit the apex and have track position. Instead Rosberg drove wider than normal and delayed steering to purposely force Hamilton off the road.

One is legal the other is not.

They are actually different incidents.

If you are ahead of me on the outside going into any corner and I make no attempt to make the apex and vier wide on purpose for no other reason than to block you from turning in that is not allowed.

What is so hard for one to understand stand.
Rosberg did turn the steering wheel so i think there was an attempt.

trento
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Re: Hamilton vs rosberg. Part 265

Post by trento »

Asphalt_World wrote:
babararacucudada wrote:Rosbeg made the corner by braking longer in a straight line.
He did turn into the corner before Hamilton hit him.

https://streamable.com/dmx4
That won't please the 'Lewis does it better than Nico' brigade though. The video shows that despite turning in very late, Nico does in fact make the corner without going off track. Lewis also made the corner in the US without going off track. Neither left enough room for a car to be alongside through the entire corner which I believe to be wrong.
Let's put it this way. 99% of the time, most drivers on Hamilton's line would simply go further to the outside to avoid collision. Especially considering it's the last lap and any collision may result in zero points.

But it's Hamilton. If he does the norm in going further outside, Rosberg would have the lead. Assuming he crashes, it would most likely be a racing incident and it's status quo. Of course in this case, the pleasure of winning is a huge bonus.

Watch this 1st corner incident between Schumi and Montoya. Schumi was on the inside but Montoya was penalised for the move.

Hamilton is certainly no saint in racing. He's hard and can be dirty, just like some past world champions. He chose a collision instead of avoiding it.


Schumacher forever#1
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Re: Hamilton vs rosberg. Part 265

Post by Schumacher forever#1 »

I haven't watched the race yet which is extremely rare of me, but it does look like Rosberg's fault from what I saw. Can't get over the double standards I'm witnessing in this thread though! Rosberg gave Hamilton no space just like Hamilton didn't on so many occasions already. Hamilton wasn't given room, but decided to make some somehow by turning into his teammate. Always a fifty-fifty as to who comes out worse, and fortunately for Lewis, it was Rosberg who suffered the damage.
"Always believe you will become the best, but never believe you have done so"

trento
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Re: Hamilton vs rosberg. Part 265

Post by trento »

lamo wrote:I never really appreciated how tight that curve is, almost a hairpin. Look at Lewis' qualifying lap to see how much steering lock he puts on and note that Rosberg was attacking from further on the inside and turning in later so would need even more lock. Nico never actually applies anywhere near enough lock to make the corner, he is going off road himself. Check his steering inputs.

Hamiltosn qualifying lap - https://www.formula1.com/en/video/2016/ ... _2016.html

Rosbergs lack of steering angle, zero attempt to make the corner - https://streamable.com/suds

How did Rosberg want this to end? What was his plan, to run them both off track?
Not true. He just turned the steering wheel much later, which some drivers would do when defending.

Well, some previous WDC did run the other off track.

lamo

Re: Hamilton vs rosberg. Part 265

Post by lamo »

trento wrote:
lamo wrote:I never really appreciated how tight that curve is, almost a hairpin. Look at Lewis' qualifying lap to see how much steering lock he puts on and note that Rosberg was attacking from further on the inside and turning in later so would need even more lock. Nico never actually applies anywhere near enough lock to make the corner, he is going off road himself. Check his steering inputs.

Hamiltosn qualifying lap - https://www.formula1.com/en/video/2016/ ... _2016.html

Rosbergs lack of steering angle, zero attempt to make the corner - https://streamable.com/suds

How did Rosberg want this to end? What was his plan, to run them both off track?
Not true. He just turned the steering wheel much later, which some drivers would do when defending.

Well, some previous WDC did run the other off track.
Rosberg turned the wheel much later, from a much tighter angle and applied half the steering angle :lol: you need to make the corner turning earlier and from a wider position. He wasn't making the corner, simple as that, unless he brought the car to an almost stop

trento
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Re: Hamilton vs rosberg. Part 265

Post by trento »

lamo wrote:
trento wrote:
lamo wrote:I never really appreciated how tight that curve is, almost a hairpin. Look at Lewis' qualifying lap to see how much steering lock he puts on and note that Rosberg was attacking from further on the inside and turning in later so would need even more lock. Nico never actually applies anywhere near enough lock to make the corner, he is going off road himself. Check his steering inputs.

Hamiltosn qualifying lap - https://www.formula1.com/en/video/2016/ ... _2016.html

Rosbergs lack of steering angle, zero attempt to make the corner - https://streamable.com/suds

How did Rosberg want this to end? What was his plan, to run them both off track?
Not true. He just turned the steering wheel much later, which some drivers would do when defending.

Well, some previous WDC did run the other off track.
Rosberg turned the wheel much later, from a much tighter angle and applied half the steering angle :lol: you need to make the corner turning earlier and from a wider position. He wasn't making the corner, simple as that, unless he brought the car to an almost stop
he was still going to make the corner, just later. Drivers have got away with similar past incidents. If there was no collision, the stewards were likely to take no action.

This is just one of many Hamilton-Rosberg tussles. Expect more to come as the title race heats up. And also expect Hamilton to win those battles.

trento
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Re: Hamilton vs rosberg. Part 265

Post by trento »

Schumacher forever#1 wrote:I haven't watched the race yet which is extremely rare of me, but it does look like Rosberg's fault from what I saw. Can't get over the double standards I'm witnessing in this thread though! Rosberg gave Hamilton no space just like Hamilton didn't on so many occasions already. Hamilton wasn't given room, but decided to make some somehow by turning into his teammate. Always a fifty-fifty as to who comes out worse, and fortunately for Lewis, it was Rosberg who suffered the damage.
Ironic of u to use 'Schumacher' as your nick. The title race is at stake. And it's the last lap. Not giving room is totally expected.

SpeedDEMON
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Re: Hamilton vs rosberg. Part 265

Post by SpeedDEMON »

trento wrote:
Schumacher forever#1 wrote:I haven't watched the race yet which is extremely rare of me, but it does look like Rosberg's fault from what I saw. Can't get over the double standards I'm witnessing in this thread though! Rosberg gave Hamilton no space just like Hamilton didn't on so many occasions already. Hamilton wasn't given room, but decided to make some somehow by turning into his teammate. Always a fifty-fifty as to who comes out worse, and fortunately for Lewis, it was Rosberg who suffered the damage.
Ironic of u to use 'Schumacher' as your nick. The title race is at stake. And it's the last lap. Not giving room is totally expected.
IN many ways that is life. Seriously I dont believe is entirely Nico Fault. He knows he is slower than Lewis. Anyoen include Lewis will use the car to defend and try to win the race for last lap. Nico is no diferent. Let say if Lewis was in NICO shoes he would do the same thing and if not more aggressive. To me I look at the scene 2. If it is NIco he will not return inside and touch Nico but Lewis did. Lewis was hoping to take out Nico silently so he wont gain point advantage and force NICO to make mistake. Plan play to Lewis hand and NICO pay for it.
Lewis is an aggressive driver who will take a driver out to win. NICO will not. It happen many times already. Seriously anyoen will defend itself for last lap and NICO wasn't wrong to do so. But Lewis aggressive driving sure will touch NICO. IF the one is VETTEL or RAI, they will back off and not return to touch NICO. FOR VERY SURE !!!!!!!!!!!!!

Asphalt_World
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Re: Hamilton vs rosberg. Part 265

Post by Asphalt_World »

sandman1347 wrote:
Asphalt_World wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Asphalt_World wrote:
Zblogger wrote: That video shows a perfectly legal racing manoeuvre. I.e. You attempt to make the corner hit the apex are ahead on the exit and have track position then youare allowed use the full width of the track on exit.

Today Hamilton was ahead on the outside Rosberg has the inside line but made no attempt to hit the apex and have track position. Instead Rosberg drove wider than normal and delayed steering to purposely force Hamilton off the road.

One is legal the other is not.

They are actually different incidents.

If you are ahead of me on the outside going into any corner and I make no attempt to make the apex and vier wide on purpose for no other reason than to block you from turning in that is not allowed.

What is so hard for one to understand stand.
Your post went wrong very early I'm afraid.
No it didn't and to be blunt, the level of cognitive dissonance you've shown in your posts today is alarming.
Please quote these inconsistencies and I'll happily correct my thoughts for you.
I'd rather not waste my time. Besides I think you're mostly just trying to wind people up. This is such a clear cut case that that's the only logical explanation.
Don't go accusing someone of something if you're not going to back it up. I said I would correct my inconsistencies if you show me them. I'm trying to be fair.
Last edited by Asphalt_World on Mon Jul 04, 2016 6:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Andy2402
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Re: Hamilton vs rosberg. Part 265

Post by Andy2402 »

SpeedDEMON wrote:
trento wrote:
Schumacher forever#1 wrote:I haven't watched the race yet which is extremely rare of me, but it does look like Rosberg's fault from what I saw. Can't get over the double standards I'm witnessing in this thread though! Rosberg gave Hamilton no space just like Hamilton didn't on so many occasions already. Hamilton wasn't given room, but decided to make some somehow by turning into his teammate. Always a fifty-fifty as to who comes out worse, and fortunately for Lewis, it was Rosberg who suffered the damage.
Ironic of u to use 'Schumacher' as your nick. The title race is at stake. And it's the last lap. Not giving room is totally expected.
IN many ways that is life. Seriously I dont believe is entirely Nico Fault. He knows he is slower than Lewis. Anyoen include Lewis will use the car to defend and try to win the race for last lap. Nico is no diferent. Let say if Lewis was in NICO shoes he would do the same thing and if not more aggressive. To me I look at the scene 2. If it is NIco he will not return inside and touch Nico but Lewis did. Lewis was hoping to take out Nico silently so he wont gain point advantage and force NICO to make mistake. Plan play to Lewis hand and NICO pay for it.
Lewis is an aggressive driver who will take a driver out to win. NICO will not. It happen many times already. Seriously anyoen will defend itself for last lap and NICO wasn't wrong to do so. But Lewis aggressive driving sure will touch NICO. IF the one is VETTEL or RAI, they will back off and not return to touch NICO. FOR VERY SURE !!!!!!!!!!!!!
Just LOL

Ennis
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Re: Hamilton vs rosberg. Part 265

Post by Ennis »

Many people have said it already - Rosberg just did a really bad job of being aggressive. Not surprising given that wheel to wheel racing is an ongoing weakness.

There were brake issues at play which may complicate things, but all things working he should have simply - Take the racing line through the corner.

This naturally forces Hamilton out of the way and is completely justified, I still believe drivers are entitled to stay on the racing line through a corner and this is never penalised.

babararacucudada
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Re: Hamilton vs rosberg. Part 265

Post by babararacucudada »

trento wrote:
lamo wrote:
trento wrote:
lamo wrote:I never really appreciated how tight that curve is, almost a hairpin. Look at Lewis' qualifying lap to see how much steering lock he puts on and note that Rosberg was attacking from further on the inside and turning in later so would need even more lock. Nico never actually applies anywhere near enough lock to make the corner, he is going off road himself. Check his steering inputs.

Hamiltosn qualifying lap - https://www.formula1.com/en/video/2016/ ... _2016.html

Rosbergs lack of steering angle, zero attempt to make the corner - https://streamable.com/suds

How did Rosberg want this to end? What was his plan, to run them both off track?
Not true. He just turned the steering wheel much later, which some drivers would do when defending.

Well, some previous WDC did run the other off track.
Rosberg turned the wheel much later, from a much tighter angle and applied half the steering angle :lol: you need to make the corner turning earlier and from a wider position. He wasn't making the corner, simple as that, unless he brought the car to an almost stop
he was still going to make the corner, just later. Drivers have got away with similar past incidents. If there was no collision, the stewards were likely to take no action.

This is just one of many Hamilton-Rosberg tussles. Expect more to come as the title race heats up. And also expect Hamilton to win those battles.
Rosberg did make the corner. He braked late and used the full width of the track.
Hamilton has established (with Wolff's help) since Bahrain 2014, that it is acceptable practice within the Mercedes team to go way off line to ensure that if your team mate tries to go round the outside of a corner beside you, it's OK to use the full width of the track - even if it means he has to go totally off track to avoid you.

The stewards said "did not allow Car 44 “racing room""

This is an example of Hamilton establishing the 'Mercedes team rule'. You can see that Hamilton behaves differently with Ricciardo and allows him to stay on the track, but with Rosberg, he goes way off line to force him off the track (@ 1:08 in the video).

That is all Rosberg was doing - braking late and wide and making the corner, but using all the track. It was Hamilton that caused the collision.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a0vtk0hfMrg

In Austria, if Hamilton hadn't turned into Rosberg's car, there wouldn't have been any damage, and there was a big overlap of the cars, with Rosberg's front wheel just behind Hamilton's front wheel, so he could see Rosberg's car was there when he turned into it.

mikeyg123
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Re: Hamilton vs rosberg. Part 265

Post by mikeyg123 »

babararacucudada wrote:
trento wrote:
lamo wrote:
trento wrote:
lamo wrote:I never really appreciated how tight that curve is, almost a hairpin. Look at Lewis' qualifying lap to see how much steering lock he puts on and note that Rosberg was attacking from further on the inside and turning in later so would need even more lock. Nico never actually applies anywhere near enough lock to make the corner, he is going off road himself. Check his steering inputs.

Hamiltosn qualifying lap - https://www.formula1.com/en/video/2016/ ... _2016.html

Rosbergs lack of steering angle, zero attempt to make the corner - https://streamable.com/suds

How did Rosberg want this to end? What was his plan, to run them both off track?
Not true. He just turned the steering wheel much later, which some drivers would do when defending.

Well, some previous WDC did run the other off track.
Rosberg turned the wheel much later, from a much tighter angle and applied half the steering angle :lol: you need to make the corner turning earlier and from a wider position. He wasn't making the corner, simple as that, unless he brought the car to an almost stop
he was still going to make the corner, just later. Drivers have got away with similar past incidents. If there was no collision, the stewards were likely to take no action.

This is just one of many Hamilton-Rosberg tussles. Expect more to come as the title race heats up. And also expect Hamilton to win those battles.
Rosberg did make the corner. He braked late and used the full width of the track.
Hamilton has established (with Wolff's help) since Bahrain 2014, that it is acceptable practice within the Mercedes team to go way off line to ensure that if your team mate tries to go round the outside of a corner beside you, it's OK to use the full width of the track - even if it means he has to go totally off track to avoid you.

The stewards said "did not allow Car 44 “racing room""

This is an example of Hamilton establishing the 'Mercedes team rule'. You can see that Hamilton behaves differently with Ricciardo and allows him to stay on the track, but with Rosberg, he goes way off line to force him off the track (@ 1:08 in the video).

That is all Rosberg was doing - braking late and wide and making the corner, but using all the track. It was Hamilton that caused the collision.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a0vtk0hfMrg

In Austria, if Hamilton hadn't turned into Rosberg's car, there wouldn't have been any damage, and there was a big overlap of the cars, with Rosberg's front wheel just behind Hamilton's front wheel, so he could see Rosberg's car was there when he turned into it.
Hamilton has never done anything this extreme. Every time I watch it, it looks like a worse piece of driving from Rosberg.

It's clear both Mercedes drivers drive differently against one another. Both would much rather crash than let the other past. The situation is untenable.

Did you see any other driver do what Rosberg did during the race? If it is fair then why not?

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mds
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Re: Hamilton vs rosberg. Part 265

Post by mds »

babararacucudada wrote: Rosberg did make the corner. He braked late and used the full width of the track.
Hamilton has established (with Wolff's help) since Bahrain 2014, that it is acceptable practice within the Mercedes team to go way off line to ensure that if your team mate tries to go round the outside of a corner beside you, it's OK to use the full width of the track - even if it means he has to go totally off track to avoid you.
The crux is, of course, that you only get to dictacte the line if you're ahead. Rosberg was not ahead yesterday.
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stevey
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Re: Hamilton vs rosberg. Part 265

Post by stevey »

The difference for those saying Hamilton usually does it to Rosberg is that when Lewis forces Nico wide he's always ahead to start with. This time Nico was behind and on the inside and that's why it didn't work.

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Re: Hamilton vs rosberg. Part 265

Post by Fiki »

babararacucudada wrote:The stewards said "did not allow Car 44 “racing room"
I'm still trying to find in the rules where it says what racing room is defined as. I can't.
I'm also having trouble finding what advantage is given a driver who is slightly ahead of a driver alongside. The stewards mention that also, and I can't find anywhere why they would use something that is not in the rules.

What every observer sees is that Hamilton runs over Rosberg's wing, instead of avoiding a collision. Is that allowed, considering there is still room to widen his line?
Use every man after his desert, and who should scape whipping? Use them after your own honour and dignity.

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Re: Hamilton vs rosberg. Part 265

Post by Fiki »

mds wrote:
babararacucudada wrote: Rosberg did make the corner. He braked late and used the full width of the track.
Hamilton has established (with Wolff's help) since Bahrain 2014, that it is acceptable practice within the Mercedes team to go way off line to ensure that if your team mate tries to go round the outside of a corner beside you, it's OK to use the full width of the track - even if it means he has to go totally off track to avoid you.
The crux is, of course, that you only get to dictacte the line if you're ahead. Rosberg was not ahead yesterday.
He indeed wasn't. But I can't find where the rules say that being ahead allows you to dictate anything. Can you?
Use every man after his desert, and who should scape whipping? Use them after your own honour and dignity.

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Re: Hamilton vs rosberg. Part 265

Post by Ennis »

Aaannnnnddd here's Fiki... bye everyone. :)

fieldstvl
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Re: Hamilton vs rosberg. Part 265

Post by fieldstvl »

For the record, I think it's mostly okay for a driver in the more 'dominant' position in any corner/turn-based overtaking manoeuvre to crowd another driver off circuit, if he's taking the racing line [but with the caveat that each circuit/corner is unique, as is the infinite number of ways an overtake can happen at each circuit/within each corner - so each case can be argued on its merits]. So I think what Rosberg attempted in Austria was sort of alright in principle, it's just the way he executed it really sucked.

The bit I find interesting is how Rosberg has described himself as being 'surprised' that Hamilton tried to overtake him, both after his mistake yesterday and his mistake in Spain. If Rosberg was not expecting a much faster Hamilton to overtake in Spain, or to turn right into a right-hand corner in Austria, what precisely was he expecting him to do?

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mds
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Re: Hamilton vs rosberg. Part 265

Post by mds »

Fiki wrote:
mds wrote:
babararacucudada wrote: Rosberg did make the corner. He braked late and used the full width of the track.
Hamilton has established (with Wolff's help) since Bahrain 2014, that it is acceptable practice within the Mercedes team to go way off line to ensure that if your team mate tries to go round the outside of a corner beside you, it's OK to use the full width of the track - even if it means he has to go totally off track to avoid you.
The crux is, of course, that you only get to dictacte the line if you're ahead. Rosberg was not ahead yesterday.
He indeed wasn't. But I can't find where the rules say that being ahead allows you to dictate anything. Can you?
Well, conversely I can't find where the rules say that being behind allows you to dictate anything.
Go Vandoorne :( - Verstappen - Vettel!

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Re: Hamilton vs rosberg. Part 265

Post by Fiki »

Ennis wrote:Aaannnnnddd here's Fiki... bye everyone. :)
Pity, I had just read something you posted, which I thought was rather good.
Use every man after his desert, and who should scape whipping? Use them after your own honour and dignity.

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Option or Prime
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Re: Hamilton vs rosberg. Part 265

Post by Option or Prime »

babararacucudada wrote:Rosbeg made the corner by braking longer in a straight line.
He did turn into the corner before Hamilton hit him.

https://streamable.com/dmx4
He made the corner because he hit Hamilton, That is just physics, law of conservation of momentum.

Fiki
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Re: Hamilton vs rosberg. Part 265

Post by Fiki »

mds wrote:
Fiki wrote:
mds wrote:
babararacucudada wrote: Rosberg did make the corner. He braked late and used the full width of the track.
Hamilton has established (with Wolff's help) since Bahrain 2014, that it is acceptable practice within the Mercedes team to go way off line to ensure that if your team mate tries to go round the outside of a corner beside you, it's OK to use the full width of the track - even if it means he has to go totally off track to avoid you.
The crux is, of course, that you only get to dictacte the line if you're ahead. Rosberg was not ahead yesterday.
He indeed wasn't. But I can't find where the rules say that being ahead allows you to dictate anything. Can you?
Well, conversely I can't find where the rules say that being behind allows you to dictate anything.
Of course you can't, there isn't one. But where does the idea come from that you mention? Which of the rules governing F1 can be construed as giving the car that is slightly ahead an advantage over the other? On the approach to a corner, even only having your wing alongside the rear wheels of the car ahead nullifies the advantage the car ahead used to have...

I thought that if the stewards were going to find Rosberg guilty of causing an avoidable accident, they would have used another part of the rulebook. But they didn't, and I think because they knew just how tight that corner was for anyone having to negotiate it from inside the racing line.

I'm still puzzled by their report.
Use every man after his desert, and who should scape whipping? Use them after your own honour and dignity.

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Lord Crc
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Re: Hamilton vs rosberg. Part 265

Post by Lord Crc »

sandman1347 wrote:Am I the only one who's not buying this brake-by-wire failure story? I just don't see anything to suggest a brake failure on Nico's car.
Toto said the break by wire failure was in turn 1, which allowed Hamilton to close up significantly.

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Re: Hamilton vs rosberg. Part 265

Post by Pest44 »

Lord Crc wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:Am I the only one who's not buying this brake-by-wire failure story? I just don't see anything to suggest a brake failure on Nico's car.
Toto said the break by wire failure was in turn 1, which allowed Hamilton to close up significantly.
But rosberg easily made the corner in turn 1 and actually turned to much into turn 1 which gave him a bad exit which doesn't suggest he had a brake problem. Also going into turn 2 he always looked in control of what he was doing which again suggests he didn't have a brake problem. I read somewhere he said he was completely in control because he didn't lock up or anything. I'll see if I can find that quote.

EDIT: found the quote http://www.autosport.com/news/report.ph ... tria-clash
Last edited by Pest44 on Mon Jul 04, 2016 9:08 am, edited 1 time in total.

babararacucudada
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Re: Hamilton vs rosberg. Part 265

Post by babararacucudada »

fieldstvl wrote:For the record, I think it's mostly okay for a driver in the more 'dominant' position in any corner/turn-based overtaking manoeuvre to crowd another driver off circuit, if he's taking the racing line [but with the caveat that each circuit/corner is unique, as is the infinite number of ways an overtake can happen at each circuit/within each corner - so each case can be argued on its merits]. So I think what Rosberg attempted in Austria was sort of alright in principle, it's just the way he executed it really sucked.

The bit I find interesting is how Rosberg has described himself as being 'surprised' that Hamilton tried to overtake him, both after his mistake yesterday and his mistake in Spain. If Rosberg was not expecting a much faster Hamilton to overtake in Spain, or to turn right into a right-hand corner in Austria, what precisely was he expecting him to do?
Rosberg said he was surprised Hamilton turned into him. He didn't say he was surprised Hamilton tried to overtake.

As to what Hamilton was supposed to do - avoid contact and run wide to do so. It's what Rosberg has had to do in the past.

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Re: Hamilton vs rosberg. Part 265

Post by mds »

Fiki wrote:
mds wrote:
Fiki wrote:
mds wrote:
babararacucudada wrote: Rosberg did make the corner. He braked late and used the full width of the track.
Hamilton has established (with Wolff's help) since Bahrain 2014, that it is acceptable practice within the Mercedes team to go way off line to ensure that if your team mate tries to go round the outside of a corner beside you, it's OK to use the full width of the track - even if it means he has to go totally off track to avoid you.
The crux is, of course, that you only get to dictacte the line if you're ahead. Rosberg was not ahead yesterday.
He indeed wasn't. But I can't find where the rules say that being ahead allows you to dictate anything. Can you?
Well, conversely I can't find where the rules say that being behind allows you to dictate anything.
Of course you can't, there isn't one. But where does the idea come from that you mention? Which of the rules governing F1 can be construed as giving the car that is slightly ahead an advantage over the other? On the approach to a corner, even only having your wing alongside the rear wheels of the car ahead nullifies the advantage the car ahead used to have...
I'm not necessarily stating that my reasoning follows from the rules. I think it's common sense. Obstructive behaviour on that level is taking it too far. What's next? Suppose Hamilton had braked harder in order to tuck in behind Rosberg, but Rosberg countered by braking as well, still keeping the line? Both standing still on the outside of the corner and Hamilton can't turn in? What then? Hamilton drives a meter ahead, Rosberg responds.

You see, I'm taking it to the extreme but what rule in the regulations would render the above behavior illegal? You can't make up rules for every possible scenario, I think that's what I'm saying.

That put aside - having a wing alongside on the run up to a corner does not nullify an advantage of the car ahead. It just obliges that car to leave a car's width of space.
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Re: Hamilton vs rosberg. Part 265

Post by babararacucudada »

Option or Prime wrote:
babararacucudada wrote:Rosbeg made the corner by braking longer in a straight line.
He did turn into the corner before Hamilton hit him.

https://streamable.com/dmx4
He made the corner because he hit Hamilton, That is just physics, law of conservation of momentum.
He made the corner despite Hamilton breaking his front wing.

It's just speculation as to whether Rosberg would have made the corner on track (ie. still in contact with the white line) without the contact.

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Re: Hamilton vs rosberg. Part 265

Post by mds »

babararacucudada wrote: As to what Hamilton was supposed to do - avoid contact and run wide to do so. It's what Rosberg has had to do in the past.
It's what Rosberg had to do in the past because he was behind. Such has become acceptable behavior in today's racing. And if he wasn't not behind, then he wouldn't have had to yield. But if he did, then too bad for him.
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Re: Hamilton vs rosberg. Part 265

Post by babararacucudada »

mds wrote:
babararacucudada wrote: As to what Hamilton was supposed to do - avoid contact and run wide to do so. It's what Rosberg has had to do in the past.
It's what Rosberg had to do in the past because he was behind. Such has become acceptable behavior in today's racing. And if he wasn't not behind, then he wouldn't have had to yield. But if he did, then too bad for him.
There isn't a rule that says that.

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Re: Hamilton vs rosberg. Part 265

Post by mds »

babararacucudada wrote:
mds wrote:
babararacucudada wrote: As to what Hamilton was supposed to do - avoid contact and run wide to do so. It's what Rosberg has had to do in the past.
It's what Rosberg had to do in the past because he was behind. Such has become acceptable behavior in today's racing. And if he wasn't not behind, then he wouldn't have had to yield. But if he did, then too bad for him.
There isn't a rule that says that.
I agree there is no rule saying hanging someone out to dry is allowed. Yet that's how it has been policed for many years now, which is what I meant when saying it has become acceptable behavior. Maybe "accepted behavior" was a better term for it, in retrospect.
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Re: Hamilton vs rosberg. Part 265

Post by Option or Prime »

babararacucudada wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:
babararacucudada wrote:Rosbeg made the corner by braking longer in a straight line.
He did turn into the corner before Hamilton hit him.

https://streamable.com/dmx4
He made the corner because he hit Hamilton, That is just physics, law of conservation of momentum.
He made the corner despite Hamilton breaking his front wing.

It's just speculation as to whether Rosberg would have made the corner on track (ie. still in contact with the white line) without the contact.
So which one is it?

1) He made the corner because he braked longer in a straight line
2) It is speculation as to whether he would have made the corner without the contact.

Of course he could have made it if he had turned in, but he didn't did he!

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Re: Hamilton vs rosberg. Part 265

Post by mcdo »

sandman1347 wrote:Am I the only one who's not buying this brake-by-wire failure story? I just don't see anything to suggest a brake failure on Nico's car.
I think many were suggesting yesterday that it was probably an excuse for the stewards. I don't know if he had or not (probably not) but I don't believe Toto's claim that the team were not allowed to tell Nico

Imminent brake failure is surely on the list of things you're allowed to tell your driver!
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Re: Hamilton vs rosberg. Part 265

Post by babararacucudada »

Option or Prime wrote:
babararacucudada wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:
babararacucudada wrote:Rosbeg made the corner by braking longer in a straight line.
He did turn into the corner before Hamilton hit him.

https://streamable.com/dmx4
He made the corner because he hit Hamilton, That is just physics, law of conservation of momentum.
He made the corner despite Hamilton breaking his front wing.

It's just speculation as to whether Rosberg would have made the corner on track (ie. still in contact with the white line) without the contact.
So which one is it?

1) He made the corner because he braked longer in a straight line
2) It is speculation as to whether he would have made the corner without the contact.

Of course he could have made it if he had turned in, but he didn't did he!
BIB
Yes he did. You can see on the onboard that Rosberg turned into the corner just before Hamilton hit him.

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Re: Hamilton vs rosberg. Part 265

Post by mcdo »

mcdo wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:Am I the only one who's not buying this brake-by-wire failure story? I just don't see anything to suggest a brake failure on Nico's car.
I think many were suggesting yesterday that it was probably an excuse for the stewards. I don't know if he had or not (probably not) but I don't believe Toto's claim that the team were not allowed to tell Nico

Imminent brake failure is surely on the list of things you're allowed to tell your driver!
I stand corrected
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.ph ... complaints

How ridiculous is that?
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Re: Hamilton vs rosberg. Part 265

Post by Dr664 »

trento wrote:
Asphalt_World wrote:
babararacucudada wrote:Rosbeg made the corner by braking longer in a straight line.
He did turn into the corner before Hamilton hit him.

https://streamable.com/dmx4
That won't please the 'Lewis does it better than Nico' brigade though. The video shows that despite turning in very late, Nico does in fact make the corner without going off track. Lewis also made the corner in the US without going off track. Neither left enough room for a car to be alongside through the entire corner which I believe to be wrong.
Let's put it this way. 99% of the time, most drivers on Hamilton's line would simply go further to the outside to avoid collision. Especially considering it's the last lap and any collision may result in zero points.

But it's Hamilton. If he does the norm in going further outside, Rosberg would have the lead. Assuming he crashes, it would most likely be a racing incident and it's status quo. Of course in this case, the pleasure of winning is a huge bonus.

Watch this 1st corner incident between Schumi and Montoya. Schumi was on the inside but Montoya was penalised for the move.

Hamilton is certainly no saint in racing. He's hard and can be dirty, just like some past world champions. He chose a collision instead of avoiding it.

With all respect to your opinion the incident you used here as an example is not the same, Montoya had not left a cars width and in doing so he had pushed Schumacher onto the curbs resulting in the understeer into Montoya, Lewis had not crowded Nico onto the curb, Nico would have crowded Lewis of the circuit if they had kept going the way Nico was trying to push it.

The biggest irony in all of this is if he had just taken the corner and gone to the edge of the line like normal he would have won as the yellow flags would have finished Lewis challenge with drs, obviously no one knew that at that point but it's a shame that Nico made a rash move to heavily defend instead of playing the smarter game!
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Re: Hamilton vs rosberg. Part 265

Post by Ennis »

mcdo wrote:
mcdo wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:Am I the only one who's not buying this brake-by-wire failure story? I just don't see anything to suggest a brake failure on Nico's car.
I think many were suggesting yesterday that it was probably an excuse for the stewards. I don't know if he had or not (probably not) but I don't believe Toto's claim that the team were not allowed to tell Nico

Imminent brake failure is surely on the list of things you're allowed to tell your driver!
I stand corrected
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.ph ... complaints

How ridiculous is that?
Will the drivers have indication that they're about to go before they do? We heard Hamilton get the critical warning about the kerbs at Turn 9 yesterday, seems bizarre that he can get that but they can't communicate on the brakes - only thing I could think of is the driver should have his own indication inside the car?

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