Hamilton: Simulator no better than PlayStation

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Asphalt_World
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Re: Hamilton: Simulator no better than PlayStation

Post by Asphalt_World »

Zblogger wrote:Words from Toto Wolff.

Mercedes team boss Toto Wolff says there was no fault on Hamilton's part for not being able to fix the problem, which eventually sorted itself out.

"I don't think it is down to homework," Wolff told Sky Sports F1. "Simulator work wouldn't have helped in any way, it was very complicated to find the right setting."
As I mentioned in another thread, the comments Wolff made make no sense at all.
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Schumaker, Seven
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Re: Hamilton: Simulator no better than PlayStation

Post by Schumaker, Seven »

Isn't that great, knowing we all can beat Carmen Jordá by a good twelve seconds?
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A.J.
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Re: Hamilton: Simulator no better than PlayStation

Post by A.J. »

Covalent wrote:
Teach206 wrote:So, this is circuit racing. You go around the same track (in circles, as our wives constantly tell us). Once you're in the car and done it 3 or 4 times, there is nothing new again. Why do you need a simulator to tell you anything more?

Last weekend I went pro-Karting, the first time in 10 years. Never driven the track before the practice day, whereas everyone else drives that circuit every other weekend. Was OVERALL 2nd fastest in the wet on Practice Day and OVERALL 4th fastest in the Wet in official practice on Sunday. Went and put my Kart on Pole (Masters Class) in qualifying (Dry) and led 80% of Race 1 until a shunt damaged my ribs and I was forced to slow down (pain). In Race 2 (reverse Grid) started from the back, made my way the front and then had to slow due to pain. In Race 3, crashed out at the start of Lap 3 with a silly mistake, while leading.

Driving a circuit on a simulator or repeatedly in practice does not make you 'fast', it makes you 'familiar'. As a rally driver, I see stages twice at slow speeds during Recce and then 2-3 times at pace during the race. So if I do more than 3 laps on any circuit, I'm 'familiar' - now just to find the speed...

Lewis was the fastest in P1,2,3 and would have been on pole at the end of Q3 and gone on to win the race. Who still thinks he needs a simulator for practice?

BUT - it would have been a huge help if the simulator could mimic setting changes inputted by the driver, and like military simulators, force the user to learn how to manipulate the computer with the switches and dials on the steering wheel. Other than that, no need for them if you have raw talent...
You're a racing god AND can see the future? You're wasting your worth here on this forum, you should be out there saving the earth.
This made me laugh more than it should have :lol: :blush:

Asphalt_World
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Re: Hamilton: Simulator no better than PlayStation

Post by Asphalt_World »

Covalent wrote:
Teach206 wrote:So, this is circuit racing. You go around the same track (in circles, as our wives constantly tell us). Once you're in the car and done it 3 or 4 times, there is nothing new again. Why do you need a simulator to tell you anything more?

Last weekend I went pro-Karting, the first time in 10 years. Never driven the track before the practice day, whereas everyone else drives that circuit every other weekend. Was OVERALL 2nd fastest in the wet on Practice Day and OVERALL 4th fastest in the Wet in official practice on Sunday. Went and put my Kart on Pole (Masters Class) in qualifying (Dry) and led 80% of Race 1 until a shunt damaged my ribs and I was forced to slow down (pain). In Race 2 (reverse Grid) started from the back, made my way the front and then had to slow due to pain. In Race 3, crashed out at the start of Lap 3 with a silly mistake, while leading.

Driving a circuit on a simulator or repeatedly in practice does not make you 'fast', it makes you 'familiar'. As a rally driver, I see stages twice at slow speeds during Recce and then 2-3 times at pace during the race. So if I do more than 3 laps on any circuit, I'm 'familiar' - now just to find the speed...

Lewis was the fastest in P1,2,3 and would have been on pole at the end of Q3 and gone on to win the race. Who still thinks he needs a simulator for practice?

BUT - it would have been a huge help if the simulator could mimic setting changes inputted by the driver, and like military simulators, force the user to learn how to manipulate the computer with the switches and dials on the steering wheel. Other than that, no need for them if you have raw talent...
You're a racing god AND can see the future? You're wasting your worth here on this forum, you should be out there saving the earth.
Yes, you do wonder why they pump so much money in to simulators when they could pop down the local kart track and pick up a dead cert for the next WDC.
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Bigbazz
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Re: Hamilton: Simulator no better than PlayStation

Post by Bigbazz »

Simulation is a weird one for me, when I was younger I used to kart a lot and without any training or knowledge I was very natural in a kart and just had a feel for it.. Years later when I got into sim racing I found it hard to adjust and my confidence from the real world was worth nothing and if anything I struggled with basic car control, was slow and had to learn the hard way.

Through theory and iteration I re-learned what had been natural in a real car and was able to translate it to the sim with a wheel, it took months just to learn one car type and it took me over a year to streamline the process and really get up to speed, and all the while you're picking up subtle habbits that to some extent you need to "un-learn" when you go back out in a car. To be fast in a sim you have to approach everything from a theoretical point of view, like knowing exactly how much brake pressure at what point of a corner, in a specific gear at a specific engine RPM (note) without being able to feel anything in the brake pedal, or through g-forces. You have to learn how to drive without all your senses.

These days our gaming simulators are really good, laser scanning circuits is commonplace and tyre modelling has come a long way, but the game simulators are still a long way off the accuracy and fidelity of the systems the F1 teams have (usually Rfactor Pro with their own physics models running on monster systems calculating in far superior detail). Chances are with Baku in particular that their model of the track was very rough/primitive. When exactly would they have had the time to laser scan and model it all? The answer to that is that they probably weren't able to, and so many of the cambers and bumps were wrong.

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moby
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Re: Hamilton: Simulator no better than PlayStation

Post by moby »

Mind, there are playstation setups and there are playstation set ups.

All cost considerably more than Lewis's 100, but some I hear of cost several thousand pounds.

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Blinky McSquinty
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Re: Hamilton: Simulator no better than PlayStation

Post by Blinky McSquinty »

Bigbazz wrote:Simulation is a weird one for me, when I was younger I used to kart a lot and without any training or knowledge I was very natural in a kart and just had a feel for it.. Years later when I got into sim racing I found it hard to adjust and my confidence from the real world was worth nothing and if anything I struggled with basic car control, was slow and had to learn the hard way.

Through theory and iteration I re-learned what had been natural in a real car and was able to translate it to the sim with a wheel, it took months just to learn one car type and it took me over a year to streamline the process and really get up to speed, and all the while you're picking up subtle habbits that to some extent you need to "un-learn" when you go back out in a car. To be fast in a sim you have to approach everything from a theoretical point of view, like knowing exactly how much brake pressure at what point of a corner, in a specific gear at a specific engine RPM (note) without being able to feel anything in the brake pedal, or through g-forces. You have to learn how to drive without all your senses.

These days our gaming simulators are really good, laser scanning circuits is commonplace and tyre modelling has come a long way, but the game simulators are still a long way off the accuracy and fidelity of the systems the F1 teams have (usually Rfactor Pro with their own physics models running on monster systems calculating in far superior detail). Chances are with Baku in particular that their model of the track was very rough/primitive. When exactly would they have had the time to laser scan and model it all? The answer to that is that they probably weren't able to, and so many of the cambers and bumps were wrong.
Well said Bigbazz, all very valid points I agree with.

Transitioning from real world to a sim (or vice versa) some of the senses are blanked out, and you must rely on others. In a sim most cues to the body come through visuals and sounds, almost every physical force does not exist. But not all sim rigs are the same, and many make a serious attempt to mimic the real world. For instance my rig has a pretty decent force feedback wheel, identical in shape and form with a real GT3 wheel. And my brake pedals are load cell, I feel how much pressure I apply, and it even has a little motor and counterweight that produces a vibrating sensation mimicking when the brake pads are near lockup.

But then again, we also run up against cost for the average person. If you have just a readily available set of controls, and they are mounted to a desk with a single monitor, you body`s inputs are very limited. But if you can afford it, then there are may cues that can be imparted to the body, from realistic force feedback on the wheel to even mimicking the "seat of the pants"sensation that definitely separates the real from the sim world.

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Pole2Win
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Re: Hamilton: Simulator no better than PlayStation

Post by Pole2Win »

LOL this is free ad to Codemasters. I mean, you can buy a PS4, their game and learn to drive as Hamilton in it... :D

He does have a point, though. The basics can be learned in a video game. But, never having driven anything on a real track, I'd expect there's stuff you can only learn in the flesh.
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Re: Hamilton: Simulator no better than PlayStation

Post by Warheart01 »

The simulator is a good place to learn and memorize different settings of the steeringwheel though I would guess. Simulating different errors, or modes or whetever.
Something which might have helped Hamilton in Baku.

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Randine
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Re: Hamilton: Simulator no better than PlayStatio

Post by Randine »

Blinky McSquinty wrote:
Bigbazz wrote:Simulation is a weird one for me, when I was younger I used to kart a lot and without any training or knowledge I was very natural in a kart and just had a feel for it.. Years later when I got into sim racing I found it hard to adjust and my confidence from the real world was worth nothing and if anything I struggled with basic car control, was slow and had to learn the hard way.

Through theory and iteration I re-learned what had been natural in a real car and was able to translate it to the sim with a wheel, it took months just to learn one car type and it took me over a year to streamline the process and really get up to speed, and all the while you're picking up subtle habbits that to some extent you need to "un-learn" when you go back out in a car. To be fast in a sim you have to approach everything from a theoretical point of view, like knowing exactly how much brake pressure at what point of a corner, in a specific gear at a specific engine RPM (note) without being able to feel anything in the brake pedal, or through g-forces. You have to learn how to drive without all your senses.

These days our gaming simulators are really good, laser scanning circuits is commonplace and tyre modelling has come a long way, but the game simulators are still a long way off the accuracy and fidelity of the systems the F1 teams have (usually Rfactor Pro with their own physics models running on monster systems calculating in far superior detail). Chances are with Baku in particular that their model of the track was very rough/primitive. When exactly would they have had the time to laser scan and model it all? The answer to that is that they probably weren't able to, and so many of the cambers and bumps were wrong.
Well said Bigbazz, all very valid points I agree with.

Transitioning from real world to a sim (or vice versa) some of the senses are blanked out, and you must rely on others. In a sim most cues to the body come through visuals and sounds, almost every physical force does not exist. But not all sim rigs are the same, and many make a serious attempt to mimic the real world. For instance my rig has a pretty decent force feedback wheel, identical in shape and form with a real GT3 wheel. And my brake pedals are load cell, I feel how much pressure I apply, and it even has a little motor and counterweight that produces a vibrating sensation mimicking when the brake pads are near lockup.

But then again, we also run up against cost for the average person. If you have just a readily available set of controls, and they are mounted to a desk with a single monitor, you body`s inputs are very limited. But if you can afford it, then there are may cues that can be imparted to the body, from realistic force feedback on the wheel to even mimicking the "seat of the pants"sensation that definitely separates the real from the sim world.

The best sim I have seen online (for home??) is this one.
I wonder how much something like this would cost.
Real world racing is expensive, from cars to parts to tyres etc. So if you factor in also you can't die in a sim, and you can do it anytime, a really good one might be worth the investment.


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James14
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Re: Hamilton: Simulator no better than PlayStation

Post by James14 »

I would have thought that a sim would be good for learning the layout of the track. End of.
There is no sim I am aware of that could replicate the feel of the car on certain tyres on different days given different temps and conditions. So I believe Hamilton on his playstation theory.

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moby
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Re: Hamilton: Simulator no better than PlayStatio

Post by moby »

Randine wrote:
Blinky McSquinty wrote:
Bigbazz wrote:Simulation is a weird one for me, when I was younger I used to kart a lot and without any training or knowledge I was very natural in a kart and just had a feel for it.. Years later when I got into sim racing I found it hard to adjust and my confidence from the real world was worth nothing and if anything I struggled with basic car control, was slow and had to learn the hard way.

Through theory and iteration I re-learned what had been natural in a real car and was able to translate it to the sim with a wheel, it took months just to learn one car type and it took me over a year to streamline the process and really get up to speed, and all the while you're picking up subtle habbits that to some extent you need to "un-learn" when you go back out in a car. To be fast in a sim you have to approach everything from a theoretical point of view, like knowing exactly how much brake pressure at what point of a corner, in a specific gear at a specific engine RPM (note) without being able to feel anything in the brake pedal, or through g-forces. You have to learn how to drive without all your senses.

These days our gaming simulators are really good, laser scanning circuits is commonplace and tyre modelling has come a long way, but the game simulators are still a long way off the accuracy and fidelity of the systems the F1 teams have (usually Rfactor Pro with their own physics models running on monster systems calculating in far superior detail). Chances are with Baku in particular that their model of the track was very rough/primitive. When exactly would they have had the time to laser scan and model it all? The answer to that is that they probably weren't able to, and so many of the cambers and bumps were wrong.
Well said Bigbazz, all very valid points I agree with.

Transitioning from real world to a sim (or vice versa) some of the senses are blanked out, and you must rely on others. In a sim most cues to the body come through visuals and sounds, almost every physical force does not exist. But not all sim rigs are the same, and many make a serious attempt to mimic the real world. For instance my rig has a pretty decent force feedback wheel, identical in shape and form with a real GT3 wheel. And my brake pedals are load cell, I feel how much pressure I apply, and it even has a little motor and counterweight that produces a vibrating sensation mimicking when the brake pads are near lockup.

But then again, we also run up against cost for the average person. If you have just a readily available set of controls, and they are mounted to a desk with a single monitor, you body`s inputs are very limited. But if you can afford it, then there are may cues that can be imparted to the body, from realistic force feedback on the wheel to even mimicking the "seat of the pants"sensation that definitely separates the real from the sim world.
The best sim I have seen online (for home??) is this one.
I wonder how much something like this would cost.
Real world racing is expensive, from cars to parts to tyres etc. So if you factor in also you can't die in a sim, and you can do it anytime, a really good one might be worth the investment.


https://youtu.be/S8gwdfBpgUI

The company I used to work for had contracts with several sim users. TBH, much of it was beyond me, but they could give you a feeling of acceleration upto and beyond mach2, could give lateral G loadings of 4 and deceleration to match.
Now how this all worked, I an sketchy on, but involved vibrators.
A cylinder "shakes" you sideways, and even though the total movement is only inches, you feel as if you have done a full loop and barrel roll. The sudden stop really does make you think you will be splattered inside the screen, but you move a few inches, but many times a second.

As I say, I do not profess to understand it, but it is unbelievable that you are not moving.Cost? several tens of millions

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Blinky McSquinty
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Re: Hamilton: Simulator no better than PlayStation

Post by Blinky McSquinty »

James14 wrote:I would have thought that a sim would be good for learning the layout of the track. End of.
There is no sim I am aware of that could replicate the feel of the car on certain tyres on different days given different temps and conditions. So I believe Hamilton on his playstation theory.
iRacing has a very good tire model, and it does react to changes in temperature and conditions. And as I described above, there are (expensive) sims anyone can put in their home and come incredibly close to the real thing.

But a Playstation or any console is severely limited on what it can do. It takes a powerful PC to run the software and all the different periperhals required to achieve decent sim performance. In a console, definitely NO. In a properly configured PC and with the right hardware, darn close, real darn close.
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Bigbazz
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Re: Hamilton: Simulator no better than PlayStation

Post by Bigbazz »

Yeah my experiences are far from motion simulation, rather a Logitech G27 infront of a desk. Regarding Playstation though, Assetto Corsa is soon releasing on the PS4 and I think it's more than reasonable to expect the PS4 to have that kind of power, it's far more powerful than the top PC systems on the market back when iRacing launched.

Though you can't buy a PS4 for £100, and a decent wheel will set you back £200-300+, by time you factor in a seat his playstation example is approaching £1000.

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POBRatings
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Re: Hamilton: Simulator no better than PlayStation

Post by POBRatings »

Bigbazz wrote:Simulation is a weird one for me, when I was younger I used to kart a lot and without any training or knowledge I was very natural in a kart and just had a feel for it.. Years later when I got into sim racing I found it hard to adjust and my confidence from the real world was worth nothing and if anything I struggled with basic car control, was slow and had to learn the hard way.

Through theory and iteration I re-learned what had been natural in a real car and was able to translate it to the sim with a wheel, it took months just to learn one car type and it took me over a year to streamline the process and really get up to speed, and all the while you're picking up subtle habbits that to some extent you need to "un-learn" when you go back out in a car. To be fast in a sim you have to approach everything from a theoretical point of view, like knowing exactly how much brake pressure at what point of a corner, in a specific gear at a specific engine RPM (note) without being able to feel anything in the brake pedal, or through g-forces. You have to learn how to drive without all your senses.

These days our gaming simulators are really good, laser scanning circuits is commonplace and tyre modelling has come a long way, but the game simulators are still a long way off the accuracy and fidelity of the systems the F1 teams have (usually Rfactor Pro with their own physics models running on monster systems calculating in far superior detail). Chances are with Baku in particular that their model of the track was very rough/primitive. When exactly would they have had the time to laser scan and model it all? The answer to that is that they probably weren't able to, and so many of the cambers and bumps were wrong.
This is very interesting, how much you had to adjust and how long it took. :thumbup:

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Bigbazz
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Re: Hamilton: Simulator no better than PlayStation

Post by Bigbazz »

Talking about simulators, Assetto Corsa just announced they are bringing the Ferrari SF15 to their game, with some reports saying the deal includes use of their simulation software in Ferrari driver centres, though I'm not entirely sure what a Ferrari driver centre is or what that actually means in practice.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tYyJhsBhgqA

That's their announcement trailer showing some footage, which includes a laser scanned Red Bull Ring track. It's definitely an exciting time if you're a simulation fan, and a world of opportunities for young drivers to train with tools like this and with competitions like the GT Academy. When I was a kid we didn't have these kind of opportunities like GT Academy, you nagged your parents for a kart and you did it until they ran out of money.

Another kid I knew growing up had parents who had a major share in a local karting track, he was actually european champion one year back in the 90s, but never moved up from karting and ended up dropping it due to lack of funds and now works in Ford.
Since the birth of modern motorsports, Red has historically been the colour of choice for Italian Manufacturers & competitive teams. In keeping with that theme; KUNOS Simulazioni and 505 Games are proud to unveil the "RED PACK", the DLC package for ASSETTO CORSA that includes seven legendary Italian sports cars and Austria’s RedBull Ring circuit.

Today we are excited to introduce the awesome Ferrari SF15-T car, driven by leading drivers Sebastian Vettel and Kimi Raikkonen in the 2015 season.

The Ferrari SF15-T is the first Ferrari GP car to debut for ASSETTO CORSA - launched on 30 January 2015, it is the second car made by Ferrari since the reintroduction of turbo engines in 2014. The red single seater has been reproduced in cooperation with Ferrari (and will be available as well in the simulators of Ferrari centres)

The Red Pack unveil trailer shows the Ferrari SF15-T in action at the RedBull Ring. The RedBull Ring has been reproduced for Assetto Corsa to the highest level of detail through the use of laserscan technology.

The Red Pack DLC will be available to purchase July 14th on Steam and will be coming to home consoles later in the year. Assetto Corsa is out now on Steam PC and will be released on home console on August 26th in Europe and August 30th in North America.

I came here to post this new F1 car in a game and ended up thinking back on old times, it's crazy though the differences compared to 20 years ago. I try to get my nephews interested but the passion is not there!

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