planetf1.com

I remember when Fernando went to Ferrari, it seemed impossible to believe he won't be a champion with them. After 2010, I was very optimistic. Ferrari would improve Fernando would cut down on the errors. But when after a Herculean performance like 2012 didn't get him a WDC, I was worried. A driver doesn't drive at that level very often. But he drove even better in 2014, but the car was even worse.
Ferrari seems to not have made significant ground on Mercedes, and have lost their main strength, reliability too. Red Bull are again doing to them what they did from 2009 to 2014, and out-developing them. And next year is a more aero-focused formula.

Could Sebastian be in a situation like Fernando, being at a team that's good but never good enough, and the best seats already have top drivers like Ricciardo and Hamilton. I fear the romance will wear off by the end of this year, and Sebastian might finally see what Fernando was going through.

Quite likely , however we will have a better idea after we see which teams nail the new regs

But there are some trends we have seen since post-Schumacher.

Lacking in aerodynamics, never the most powerful engine, never the best in in-season development, and never hiring two absolutely top-level drivers.

And they seem to not be making any steps to change these points.

Fair point

Personally I'll be putting a cheeky bet on ric and red bull champs next season maybe even a side bet on max.

Vettel still a top driver but he's like a better button, less sensitive to the planets aligning to perform, which makes me think ferrari will have to do a Mercedes in terms of dominance to give me confidence he could take a wdc in the new regs.

IDrinkYourMilkshake wrote:But there are some trends we have seen since post-Schumacher.

Lacking in aerodynamics, never the most powerful engine, never the best in in-season development, and never hiring two absolutely top-level drivers.

And they seem to not be making any steps to change these points.

To be fair, the one about drivers isn't exactly new, and hiring two absolutely top-level drivers is a great way to lose a championship. One absolutely top-level driver and one darned good driver is the proven best combination for winning titles.

The lack of consistent development, both year-on-year and in-season, is what's really killing them. That, and the often toxic pressure cooker environment...

Seems unlikely to me. Red Bull were held back by the engines, but Renault seems to be fast progressing.

Vettel isn't the best driver, nor is he with the best team. I don't see why that would result in a title.

Last year I was thinking Seb was so lucky to join Ferrari at a moment they made significant progress so they were able to win 3 times. But to others Seb was the miracle man and people believed 2014 was an off year for him, he wasn't motivated any more at RBR. In 2015 we saw a rejuvenated Seb etc etc. That Dan beat him handily was quickly forgotten.
This year bar Oz Ferrari are further of the pace of the Mercs and RBR have caught up with them too. Of course they might get it right in 2017 however remember 2009 where they got it horribly wrong. McLaren looked even worse at the start but they actually overhauled the reds too that season.

You make a good point about post MS era. As much as I hated their success the partnership of Schumi, Todt, Brawn, Byrne and their pretty exclusive deal with Bridgestone was a match made in heaven. We might not see this ever again. Even though Seb at RBR came pretty close achieving similar success. Alonso was said to be too political to get the success Schumi did yet hey nearly won it twice. I think Alonso was a really good fit at Ferrari until the arrival of Marchione. Alonso even spoke Italian right? Seb is easier to work with apparently but I don't see him as the guy that will lead them to great successes unless Ferrari builds the best car and he has a teammate clearly weaker than him like Kimi.

never hiring two absolutely top-level drivers

This might have worked very well on them in the dominance eras but that they have hang on so long to Massa and now to Kimi has clearly been hurting them. Seb is surely one of the best but if they are able to get someone better than Kimi OR Seb they should do so. They are not a charity team, they do not exist to keep their number 1 driver happy. Drivers come and go. They exist to win races and WCC's. The fact they were interested in Bottas last season told me they are keeping their old politics of top driver and solid number 2 alive. I mean Bottas the guy that is barely better than the guy they kicked out before?

The most exciting seasons were when Ferrari had 2 drivers that were both strong enough to go for wins and quite evenly matched. I'm thinking of Berger and Mansell in 1989, Berger and Alesi in 1993-1995. Yes it has been that long ago I was excited of Ferrari's line-up. Kimi, Alonso looked good on paper but Kim yeah...

Exediron wrote: To be fair, the one about drivers isn't exactly new, and hiring two absolutely top-level drivers is a great way to lose a championship. One absolutely top-level driver and one darned good driver is the proven best combination for winning titles.

Well Ferrari's last WDC was in 2007 and WCC in 2008. I think Kimi and Massa were pretty evenly matched. This politics haven't really worked any more for them since the MS days.

I would be very surprised as a Ferrari fan if they nail it for 2017. At the previous 2 attempts at regs change (2009 and 2014) they failed miserably, I don't have any hope for 2017 and Vettel needs to understand that aswell.

IDrinkYourMilkshake wrote:But there are some trends we have seen since post-Schumacher.

Lacking in aerodynamics, never the most powerful engine, never the best in in-season development, and never hiring two absolutely top-level drivers.

And they seem to not be making any steps to change these points.

Actually, they are pretty good in the high speed corners, which suggests decent aero, and their engine is reportedly not that far off the Mercedes unit in terms of power. I don't think they've been too bad overall in terms of development, either, these last two races notwithstanding, although it's true that the supposed 0.5s engine upgrade never materialised.

I'd say they are closer to Mercedes this year than they were last. In Spain they were faster than the Bulls but had issues trying to make the tyres work in qualifying: this is setup related rather than any specific problem with the chassis itself. At Monaco they didn't look too bad speed wise (well, in Seb's hands at least) and the difficulties of overtaking contributed heavily to Vettel missing out on a podium. Overall the car's not too bad and I think it's a little premature to write them off just yet. It's true Red Bull have made great strides recently but the type of track in the last couple of races may have exacerbated that.

Drivers is more subjective I think. I know you don't rate Kimi at all but this race was the first that he looked sub-par. The rest of the season his performances haven't been bad and it seems to have been quickly forgotten that he was 2nd in the WDC going into this race. Seb's usually been on it, too.

I see no reason to believe that Ferrari will fade away or not continue to close the gap. I'd say they are still the 2nd best car out there overall and the next few races will confirm whether this is so or that Red Bull have caught them. Seb still has a decent chance of a title with them, although I'm sure he's looking a little wistfully back at his previous employer now they appear to be on a charge. Not bad for a drinks company!

I have a feeling he will, but it will be a close fought championship that relies on others making a mess of things. Kinda like Kimi in 07.

At the end of the day he just needs to do what Alonso didn't, stay put. If you stay for long enough at Ferrari with all that money behind the team you will get a championship opportunity or two thrown your way.

He will.... but only on his 5th year with Ferrari (just like Michael Schumacher), that if he stays with the red team for that long.

infi24r wrote:Seems unlikely to me. Red Bull were held back by the engines, but Renault seems to be fast progressing.

Vettel isn't the best driver, nor is he with the best team. I don't see why that would result in a title.

Vettel is a four time champion, one of the best of his generations, so how can he not be a contender for the title on that merit alone, if provided with the right car? By hiring Vettel, Ferrari did 50% what is needed for the WDC. The rest is clearly with them.

No. Vettel will not get a WDC at Ferrari. His 4x WDC came from a superior car, to which his immense driving skills were ideally matched.

Vettel is a great driver, but not the best driver. And Ferrari is nowhere near being the best car.

How long is his contract?

When Schu won at Ferrari, they did a huge amount of mileage on their test track.
They can't do that now.
I see Ferrari not winning a race this year. Especially as the tracks that Merc aren't the strongest are ones that suit Red Bull.
And I think most will be surprised if they really nail next years car.

I'll feel more comfortable answering this question next season. Not only because we will see how Ferrari handle the new regs but because we will likely see a new teammate for Vettel (hopefully either Rosberg or Ricciardo). I pay attention to who is in the other car and I have never seen Vettel beat a teammate who was truly top shelf. I actually sense that there is a half-step gap between guys like Hamilton and Alonso (and I think Daniel too) and Seb.

That being said, if Ferrari nail it perfectly with the new regs and if they retain Raikkonen, Vettel can and will win the championship.

Thats a really good question.

I dont think he will, and if he does, I think he will struggle to do it and he will do it thanks to others misfortunes.
I dont think its looking very good for Ferrari in 2017 either... Latest big regulation changes (2009, 2014) suggest that Ferrari struggle to adapt to big regulation changes and the first year is bad for them.

Theres a reason Alonso left.

sandman1347 wrote:I'll feel more comfortable answering this question next season. Not only because we will see how Ferrari handle the new regs but because we will likely see a new teammate for Vettel (hopefully either Rosberg or Ricciardo). I pay attention to who is in the other car and I have never seen Vettel beat a teammate who was truly top shelf. I actually sense that there is a half-step gap between guys like Hamilton and Alonso (and I think Daniel too) and Seb.

That being said, if Ferrari nail it perfectly with the new regs and if they retain Raikkonen, Vettel can and will win the championship.

I would say Vettel beat Webber even more comfortably than Lewis has beaten Rosberg and I'm not convinced Rosberg is any better than Webber. In fact I would say Vettel looks to be slightly ahead of Lewis overall. I don't see why he wouldn't win a title with Ferrari given a competitive car and I don't think he need fear who his team mate might be.

For me the issue is purely can Ferrari provide a championship-challenging car. If it's reasonably competitive then Vettel will have as good a chance as anyone of winning the title, whoever his team mate might be. And if Ferrari improve next year by as much as they have this year then they may well be competitive

nixxxon wrote:Thats a really good question.

I dont think he will, and if he does, I think he will struggle to do it and he will do it thanks to others misfortunes.
I dont think its looking very good for Ferrari in 2017 either... Latest big regulation changes (2009, 2014) suggest that Ferrari struggle to adapt to big regulation changes and the first year is bad for them.

Theres a reason Alonso left.

To be fair I don't think Alonso is the best barometer to use for good career decisions...

Zoue wrote:

sandman1347 wrote:I'll feel more comfortable answering this question next season. Not only because we will see how Ferrari handle the new regs but because we will likely see a new teammate for Vettel (hopefully either Rosberg or Ricciardo). I pay attention to who is in the other car and I have never seen Vettel beat a teammate who was truly top shelf. I actually sense that there is a half-step gap between guys like Hamilton and Alonso (and I think Daniel too) and Seb.

That being said, if Ferrari nail it perfectly with the new regs and if they retain Raikkonen, Vettel can and will win the championship.

I would say Vettel beat Webber even more comfortably than Lewis has beaten Rosberg and I'm not convinced Rosberg is any better than Webber. In fact I would say Vettel looks to be slightly ahead of Lewis overall. I don't see why he wouldn't win a title with Ferrari given a competitive car and I don't think he need fear who his team mate might be.

For me the issue is purely can Ferrari provide a championship-challenging car. If it's reasonably competitive then Vettel will have as good a chance as anyone of winning the title, whoever his team mate might be. And if Ferrari improve next year by as much as they have this year then they may well be competitive

We can agree to disagree. For me, Webber was past his prime throughout most of his time as Vettel's teammate (and was a journeyman driver even in his best days), as is evident by how much closer he was to Vettel in the first year or two of his partnership than he was in 2011-2013. Kimi is also clearly past his peak (and in my opinion was never more than a Massa level driver anyway). IMO 2014 was the only season where Vettel has had a top talent in the other car and he was not only defeated, he was destroyed. He was outqualified and outraced.

I think Rosberg is clearly better than Webber ever was. Rosberg dominated the matchup with Schumacher. Okay Michael was older and past his peak but he was never even close to beating Nico over a season. That says a lot. I also think Nico has performed admirably in taking the top car and beating everyone he should beat with it while Webber struggled to finish second much of the time and in fact failed to finish runner up in the dominant car repeatedly.

If you don't believe in Rosberg, what about Button or Alonso? Hamilton has faced strong teammates in almost every season of his career and has beaten them all save 2011. He has been measured against the best and has always looked faster than the guy in the other car.

It would be great to see Hamilton and Vettel as teammates but I doubt it will ever happen.

sandman1347 wrote:

Zoue wrote:

sandman1347 wrote:I'll feel more comfortable answering this question next season. Not only because we will see how Ferrari handle the new regs but because we will likely see a new teammate for Vettel (hopefully either Rosberg or Ricciardo). I pay attention to who is in the other car and I have never seen Vettel beat a teammate who was truly top shelf. I actually sense that there is a half-step gap between guys like Hamilton and Alonso (and I think Daniel too) and Seb.

That being said, if Ferrari nail it perfectly with the new regs and if they retain Raikkonen, Vettel can and will win the championship.

I would say Vettel beat Webber even more comfortably than Lewis has beaten Rosberg and I'm not convinced Rosberg is any better than Webber. In fact I would say Vettel looks to be slightly ahead of Lewis overall. I don't see why he wouldn't win a title with Ferrari given a competitive car and I don't think he need fear who his team mate might be.

For me the issue is purely can Ferrari provide a championship-challenging car. If it's reasonably competitive then Vettel will have as good a chance as anyone of winning the title, whoever his team mate might be. And if Ferrari improve next year by as much as they have this year then they may well be competitive

We can agree to disagree. For me, Webber was past his prime throughout most of his time as Vettel's teammate (and was a journeyman driver even in his best days), as is evident by how much closer he was to Vettel in the first year or two of his partnership than he was in 2011-2013. Kimi is also clearly past his peak (and in my opinion was never more than a Massa level driver anyway). IMO 2014 was the only season where Vettel has had a top talent in the other car and he was not only defeated, he was destroyed. He was outqualified and outraced.

I think Rosberg is clearly better than Webber ever was. Rosberg dominated the matchup with Schumacher. Okay Michael was older and past his peak but he was never even close to beating Nico over a season. That says a lot. I also think Nico has performed admirably in taking the top car and beating everyone he should beat with it while Webber struggled to finish second much of the time and in fact failed to finish runner up in the dominant car repeatedly.

If you don't believe in Rosberg, what about Button or Alonso? Hamilton has faced strong teammates in almost every season of his career and has beaten them all save 2011. He has been measured against the best and has always looked faster than the guy in the other car.

It would be great to see Hamilton and Vettel as teammates but I doubt it will ever happen.

You make a good point with Nico's record against Schumacher but I would disagree that the latter never came close to beating him. In 2012 it was bad luck that beat Schumacher, not Nico (in much the same way that bad luck meant Lewis finished a mere two points ahead of Button that year, instead of by the landslide his own performance merited). In fact if you analyse their record as team mates it's clear that Schumacher was getting closer and closer year on year (and IMO surpassed Nico in 2012). Now either you think Schumacher got better as years went by, or you might consider that Schumacher took a while to get used to the new cars and tyres (remember the famous "greasy eggs comment). I know which one makes more sense to me.

Thing is, though, I consider both Webber and Nico to be above average drivers, just with different strengths and weaknesses. I don't have to talk Nico down to make Webber look better. Webber was very quick on his day. I'd put his racecraft slightly ahead of Nico's, but he struggled a lot with the Pirellis, particularly in the slower corners. If Nico had racecraft to match his raw speed he'd be almost unstoppable. As it is, he's fast but vulnerable.

Lewis is a very, very good driver. But I also think he makes a lot of mistakes and doesn't look as supreme when in traffic as he does when leading the race or just hassling Rosberg. Not that Vettel never makes mistakes, but I think not as many and I think overall he's the slightly better driver. Give him a competitive car and he'll be as good as anyone

I think he will. I feel he will stay for a good portion of his career,maybe even the rest of it, he's a good fit there. They have made a whole bunch of good signings on the technical side and have finally solved their wind tunnel issues. They upgraded their dynos/test beds to the tune of over 100m Euros as well and these will all bear fruit at some stage.

Zoue wrote:

sandman1347 wrote:

Zoue wrote:

sandman1347 wrote:I'll feel more comfortable answering this question next season. Not only because we will see how Ferrari handle the new regs but because we will likely see a new teammate for Vettel (hopefully either Rosberg or Ricciardo). I pay attention to who is in the other car and I have never seen Vettel beat a teammate who was truly top shelf. I actually sense that there is a half-step gap between guys like Hamilton and Alonso (and I think Daniel too) and Seb.

That being said, if Ferrari nail it perfectly with the new regs and if they retain Raikkonen, Vettel can and will win the championship.

I would say Vettel beat Webber even more comfortably than Lewis has beaten Rosberg and I'm not convinced Rosberg is any better than Webber. In fact I would say Vettel looks to be slightly ahead of Lewis overall. I don't see why he wouldn't win a title with Ferrari given a competitive car and I don't think he need fear who his team mate might be.

For me the issue is purely can Ferrari provide a championship-challenging car. If it's reasonably competitive then Vettel will have as good a chance as anyone of winning the title, whoever his team mate might be. And if Ferrari improve next year by as much as they have this year then they may well be competitive

We can agree to disagree. For me, Webber was past his prime throughout most of his time as Vettel's teammate (and was a journeyman driver even in his best days), as is evident by how much closer he was to Vettel in the first year or two of his partnership than he was in 2011-2013. Kimi is also clearly past his peak (and in my opinion was never more than a Massa level driver anyway). IMO 2014 was the only season where Vettel has had a top talent in the other car and he was not only defeated, he was destroyed. He was outqualified and outraced.

I think Rosberg is clearly better than Webber ever was. Rosberg dominated the matchup with Schumacher. Okay Michael was older and past his peak but he was never even close to beating Nico over a season. That says a lot. I also think Nico has performed admirably in taking the top car and beating everyone he should beat with it while Webber struggled to finish second much of the time and in fact failed to finish runner up in the dominant car repeatedly.

If you don't believe in Rosberg, what about Button or Alonso? Hamilton has faced strong teammates in almost every season of his career and has beaten them all save 2011. He has been measured against the best and has always looked faster than the guy in the other car.

It would be great to see Hamilton and Vettel as teammates but I doubt it will ever happen.

You make a good point with Nico's record against Schumacher but I would disagree that the latter never came close to beating him. In 2012 it was bad luck that beat Schumacher, not Nico (in much the same way that bad luck meant Lewis finished a mere two points ahead of Button that year, instead of by the landslide his own performance merited). In fact if you analyse their record as team mates it's clear that Schumacher was getting closer and closer year on year (and IMO surpassed Nico in 2012). Now either you think Schumacher got better as years went by, or you might consider that Schumacher took a while to get used to the new cars and tyres (remember the famous "greasy eggs comment). I know which one makes more sense to me.

Thing is, though, I consider both Webber and Nico to be above average drivers, just with different strengths and weaknesses. I don't have to talk Nico down to make Webber look better. Webber was very quick on his day. I'd put his racecraft slightly ahead of Nico's, but he struggled a lot with the Pirellis, particularly in the slower corners. If Nico had racecraft to match his raw speed he'd be almost unstoppable. As it is, he's fast but vulnerable.

Lewis is a very, very good driver. But I also think he makes a lot of mistakes and doesn't look as supreme when in traffic as he does when leading the race or just hassling Rosberg. Not that Vettel never makes mistakes, but I think not as many and I think overall he's the slightly better driver. Give him a competitive car and he'll be as good as anyone

As I said, we can agree to disagree. The bolded part I just have to address. Lewis is the best in the field at charging through traffic. He went from 10th to 2nd this season in Russia. In 2014 he went from 22nd to 3rd and 20th to 3rd in Germany and Hungary. Even in years where the car wasn't great, he had amazing charges. In 2009 he went from 18th to 4th in the opening round in Australia when the McLaren was a dog. He also went from 17th to 3rd in Brazil late in the year. He charged through the field brilliantly in China in 2010 after all of the chaos early in the race too (that was one of the most amazing performances I've seen). That's probably his greatest gift.

sandman1347 wrote:

Zoue wrote:

sandman1347 wrote:

Zoue wrote:

sandman1347 wrote:I'll feel more comfortable answering this question next season. Not only because we will see how Ferrari handle the new regs but because we will likely see a new teammate for Vettel (hopefully either Rosberg or Ricciardo). I pay attention to who is in the other car and I have never seen Vettel beat a teammate who was truly top shelf. I actually sense that there is a half-step gap between guys like Hamilton and Alonso (and I think Daniel too) and Seb.

That being said, if Ferrari nail it perfectly with the new regs and if they retain Raikkonen, Vettel can and will win the championship.

I would say Vettel beat Webber even more comfortably than Lewis has beaten Rosberg and I'm not convinced Rosberg is any better than Webber. In fact I would say Vettel looks to be slightly ahead of Lewis overall. I don't see why he wouldn't win a title with Ferrari given a competitive car and I don't think he need fear who his team mate might be.

For me the issue is purely can Ferrari provide a championship-challenging car. If it's reasonably competitive then Vettel will have as good a chance as anyone of winning the title, whoever his team mate might be. And if Ferrari improve next year by as much as they have this year then they may well be competitive

We can agree to disagree. For me, Webber was past his prime throughout most of his time as Vettel's teammate (and was a journeyman driver even in his best days), as is evident by how much closer he was to Vettel in the first year or two of his partnership than he was in 2011-2013. Kimi is also clearly past his peak (and in my opinion was never more than a Massa level driver anyway). IMO 2014 was the only season where Vettel has had a top talent in the other car and he was not only defeated, he was destroyed. He was outqualified and outraced.

I think Rosberg is clearly better than Webber ever was. Rosberg dominated the matchup with Schumacher. Okay Michael was older and past his peak but he was never even close to beating Nico over a season. That says a lot. I also think Nico has performed admirably in taking the top car and beating everyone he should beat with it while Webber struggled to finish second much of the time and in fact failed to finish runner up in the dominant car repeatedly.

If you don't believe in Rosberg, what about Button or Alonso? Hamilton has faced strong teammates in almost every season of his career and has beaten them all save 2011. He has been measured against the best and has always looked faster than the guy in the other car.

It would be great to see Hamilton and Vettel as teammates but I doubt it will ever happen.

You make a good point with Nico's record against Schumacher but I would disagree that the latter never came close to beating him. In 2012 it was bad luck that beat Schumacher, not Nico (in much the same way that bad luck meant Lewis finished a mere two points ahead of Button that year, instead of by the landslide his own performance merited). In fact if you analyse their record as team mates it's clear that Schumacher was getting closer and closer year on year (and IMO surpassed Nico in 2012). Now either you think Schumacher got better as years went by, or you might consider that Schumacher took a while to get used to the new cars and tyres (remember the famous "greasy eggs comment). I know which one makes more sense to me.

Thing is, though, I consider both Webber and Nico to be above average drivers, just with different strengths and weaknesses. I don't have to talk Nico down to make Webber look better. Webber was very quick on his day. I'd put his racecraft slightly ahead of Nico's, but he struggled a lot with the Pirellis, particularly in the slower corners. If Nico had racecraft to match his raw speed he'd be almost unstoppable. As it is, he's fast but vulnerable.

Lewis is a very, very good driver. But I also think he makes a lot of mistakes and doesn't look as supreme when in traffic as he does when leading the race or just hassling Rosberg. Not that Vettel never makes mistakes, but I think not as many and I think overall he's the slightly better driver. Give him a competitive car and he'll be as good as anyone

As I said, we can agree to disagree. The bolded part I just have to address. Lewis is the best in the field at charging through traffic. He went from 10th to 2nd this season in Russia. In 2014 he went from 22nd to 3rd and 20th to 3rd in Germany and Hungary. Even in years where the car wasn't great, he had amazing charges. In 2009 he went from 18th to 4th in the opening round in Australia when the McLaren was a dog. He also went from 17th to 3rd in Brazil late in the year. He charged through the field brilliantly in China in 2010 after all of the chaos early in the race too (that was one of the most amazing performances I've seen). That's probably his greatest gift.

To be fair in 2014 he had time to go to the toilet during his pit stops and still end up on the podium. The Mercedes was so far ahead of anything else they were in a different league. Even then, with that advantage, he still played bumper cars in Germany, not just once but three times. This was repeated in 2015, most notably when he crashed in DR in Hungary.

Lewis is an exciting driver to watch come through the field but he doesn't do it without incident. He sometimes appears to rely on other drivers taking avoiding action and that doesn't always work out. He's good, but he's far from flawless. But I'm happy to disagree

webber quite simply never got the hang of the blown exhaust or at least never as well as vettel did and I believe vettel adapted his driving to it better than anyone

Zoue wrote: To be fair in 2014 he had time to go to the toilet during his pit stops and still end up on the podium. The Mercedes was so far ahead of anything else they were in a different league. Even then, with that advantage, he still played bumper cars in Germany, not just once but three times. This was repeated in 2015, most notably when he crashed in DR in Hungary.

Lewis is an exciting driver to watch come through the field but he doesn't do it without incident. He sometimes appears to rely on other drivers taking avoiding action and that doesn't always work out. He's good, but he's far from flawless. But I'm happy to disagree

I think you're both right. Lewis is one of the best at coming through the field but he rarely does it without incident. Not pretty but effective.

On the whole I'm not sure Lewis makes contact with other cars more often than other top drivers or not. Be an interesting study.

I'd be surprised if he doesn't. He has a long career ahead of him. It'll probably take another 2 or 3 years from now.

Lt. Drebin wrote:

infi24r wrote:Seems unlikely to me. Red Bull were held back by the engines, but Renault seems to be fast progressing.

Vettel isn't the best driver, nor is he with the best team. I don't see why that would result in a title.

Vettel is a four time champion, one of the best of his generations, so how can he not be a contender for the title on that merit alone, if provided with the right car? By hiring Vettel, Ferrari did 50% what is needed for the WDC. The rest is clearly with them.

Listening to some fans on here some 18 months ago, I was under the impression that Vettel was going to do what Alonso failed to do, and "develop" the Ferrari car into a title winner.

Zoue wrote:

sandman1347 wrote:

Zoue wrote:

sandman1347 wrote:I'll feel more comfortable answering this question next season. Not only because we will see how Ferrari handle the new regs but because we will likely see a new teammate for Vettel (hopefully either Rosberg or Ricciardo). I pay attention to who is in the other car and I have never seen Vettel beat a teammate who was truly top shelf. I actually sense that there is a half-step gap between guys like Hamilton and Alonso (and I think Daniel too) and Seb.

That being said, if Ferrari nail it perfectly with the new regs and if they retain Raikkonen, Vettel can and will win the championship.

I would say Vettel beat Webber even more comfortably than Lewis has beaten Rosberg and I'm not convinced Rosberg is any better than Webber. In fact I would say Vettel looks to be slightly ahead of Lewis overall. I don't see why he wouldn't win a title with Ferrari given a competitive car and I don't think he need fear who his team mate might be.

For me the issue is purely can Ferrari provide a championship-challenging car. If it's reasonably competitive then Vettel will have as good a chance as anyone of winning the title, whoever his team mate might be. And if Ferrari improve next year by as much as they have this year then they may well be competitive

We can agree to disagree. For me, Webber was past his prime throughout most of his time as Vettel's teammate (and was a journeyman driver even in his best days), as is evident by how much closer he was to Vettel in the first year or two of his partnership than he was in 2011-2013. Kimi is also clearly past his peak (and in my opinion was never more than a Massa level driver anyway). IMO 2014 was the only season where Vettel has had a top talent in the other car and he was not only defeated, he was destroyed. He was outqualified and outraced.

I think Rosberg is clearly better than Webber ever was. Rosberg dominated the matchup with Schumacher. Okay Michael was older and past his peak but he was never even close to beating Nico over a season. That says a lot. I also think Nico has performed admirably in taking the top car and beating everyone he should beat with it while Webber struggled to finish second much of the time and in fact failed to finish runner up in the dominant car repeatedly.

If you don't believe in Rosberg, what about Button or Alonso? Hamilton has faced strong teammates in almost every season of his career and has beaten them all save 2011. He has been measured against the best and has always looked faster than the guy in the other car.

It would be great to see Hamilton and Vettel as teammates but I doubt it will ever happen.

You make a good point with Nico's record against Schumacher but I would disagree that the latter never came close to beating him. In 2012 it was bad luck that beat Schumacher, not Nico (in much the same way that bad luck meant Lewis finished a mere two points ahead of Button that year, instead of by the landslide his own performance merited). In fact if you analyse their record as team mates it's clear that Schumacher was getting closer and closer year on year (and IMO surpassed Nico in 2012). Now either you think Schumacher got better as years went by, or you might consider that Schumacher took a while to get used to the new cars and tyres (remember the famous "greasy eggs comment). I know which one makes more sense to me.

Thing is, though, I consider both Webber and Nico to be above average drivers, just with different strengths and weaknesses. I don't have to talk Nico down to make Webber look better. Webber was very quick on his day. I'd put his racecraft slightly ahead of Nico's, but he struggled a lot with the Pirellis, particularly in the slower corners. If Nico had racecraft to match his raw speed he'd be almost unstoppable. As it is, he's fast but vulnerable.

Lewis is a very, very good driver. But I also think he makes a lot of mistakes and doesn't look as supreme when in traffic as he does when leading the race or just hassling Rosberg. Not that Vettel never makes mistakes, but I think not as many and I think overall he's the slightly better driver. Give him a competitive car and he'll be as good as anyone

Brilliant!

davidheath461 wrote:

Zoue wrote:

sandman1347 wrote:

Zoue wrote:

sandman1347 wrote:I'll feel more comfortable answering this question next season. Not only because we will see how Ferrari handle the new regs but because we will likely see a new teammate for Vettel (hopefully either Rosberg or Ricciardo). I pay attention to who is in the other car and I have never seen Vettel beat a teammate who was truly top shelf. I actually sense that there is a half-step gap between guys like Hamilton and Alonso (and I think Daniel too) and Seb.

That being said, if Ferrari nail it perfectly with the new regs and if they retain Raikkonen, Vettel can and will win the championship.

I would say Vettel beat Webber even more comfortably than Lewis has beaten Rosberg and I'm not convinced Rosberg is any better than Webber. In fact I would say Vettel looks to be slightly ahead of Lewis overall. I don't see why he wouldn't win a title with Ferrari given a competitive car and I don't think he need fear who his team mate might be.

For me the issue is purely can Ferrari provide a championship-challenging car. If it's reasonably competitive then Vettel will have as good a chance as anyone of winning the title, whoever his team mate might be. And if Ferrari improve next year by as much as they have this year then they may well be competitive

We can agree to disagree. For me, Webber was past his prime throughout most of his time as Vettel's teammate (and was a journeyman driver even in his best days), as is evident by how much closer he was to Vettel in the first year or two of his partnership than he was in 2011-2013. Kimi is also clearly past his peak (and in my opinion was never more than a Massa level driver anyway). IMO 2014 was the only season where Vettel has had a top talent in the other car and he was not only defeated, he was destroyed. He was outqualified and outraced.

I think Rosberg is clearly better than Webber ever was. Rosberg dominated the matchup with Schumacher. Okay Michael was older and past his peak but he was never even close to beating Nico over a season. That says a lot. I also think Nico has performed admirably in taking the top car and beating everyone he should beat with it while Webber struggled to finish second much of the time and in fact failed to finish runner up in the dominant car repeatedly.

If you don't believe in Rosberg, what about Button or Alonso? Hamilton has faced strong teammates in almost every season of his career and has beaten them all save 2011. He has been measured against the best and has always looked faster than the guy in the other car.

It would be great to see Hamilton and Vettel as teammates but I doubt it will ever happen.

You make a good point with Nico's record against Schumacher but I would disagree that the latter never came close to beating him. In 2012 it was bad luck that beat Schumacher, not Nico (in much the same way that bad luck meant Lewis finished a mere two points ahead of Button that year, instead of by the landslide his own performance merited). In fact if you analyse their record as team mates it's clear that Schumacher was getting closer and closer year on year (and IMO surpassed Nico in 2012). Now either you think Schumacher got better as years went by, or you might consider that Schumacher took a while to get used to the new cars and tyres (remember the famous "greasy eggs comment). I know which one makes more sense to me.

Thing is, though, I consider both Webber and Nico to be above average drivers, just with different strengths and weaknesses. I don't have to talk Nico down to make Webber look better. Webber was very quick on his day. I'd put his racecraft slightly ahead of Nico's, but he struggled a lot with the Pirellis, particularly in the slower corners. If Nico had racecraft to match his raw speed he'd be almost unstoppable. As it is, he's fast but vulnerable.

Lewis is a very, very good driver. But I also think he makes a lot of mistakes and doesn't look as supreme when in traffic as he does when leading the race or just hassling Rosberg. Not that Vettel never makes mistakes, but I think not as many and I think overall he's the slightly better driver. Give him a competitive car and he'll be as good as anyone

Brilliant!

to be fair Zoue did specifically say that Vettel does sometimes make mistakes and all those pictures are from half a decade ago.

We can look at this season if you like. Mistake in Australia, mistake in China, mistake in Monaco.

Yes, but not this year.

I have a gut feeling that Vettel will not be with Ferrari much longer. If he sees next year out, I think that will be that. He will then switch to a team in with a real shout, possibly back to Red Bull.

davidheath461 wrote:We can look at this season if you like. Mistake in Australia, mistake in China, mistake in Monaco.

When did he hit people coming through the field this season? That's what we are talking about isn't it?

davidheath461 wrote:

Lt. Drebin wrote:

infi24r wrote:Seems unlikely to me. Red Bull were held back by the engines, but Renault seems to be fast progressing.

Vettel isn't the best driver, nor is he with the best team. I don't see why that would result in a title.

Vettel is a four time champion, one of the best of his generations, so how can he not be a contender for the title on that merit alone, if provided with the right car? By hiring Vettel, Ferrari did 50% what is needed for the WDC. The rest is clearly with them.

Listening to some fans on here some 18 months ago, I was under the impression that Vettel was going to do what Alonso failed to do, and "develop" the Ferrari car into a title winner.

Indeed, I was wondering about that as well. Where is the brigade gone claiming that it was all Alonso's fault and Vettel would magificiently create an ever upward development to new domination? It does not appear to be that easy, does it?


That said, I cannot answer the op's question. First, as others have pointed out, Ferrari needs to produce a sufficiently competitive car. Not exactly an automatism. But if they do, Vettel will be a title contender again. Second, who will be his teammate? As long as Ferrari keeps Räikkönen, no danger (yes, currently Räikkönen leads Vettel by one point - but I do not think that will last long). If Ferrari hires one of the current top drivers or an outstanding talent, things may look very different ...

Paolo_Lasardi wrote:

davidheath461 wrote:

Lt. Drebin wrote:

infi24r wrote:Seems unlikely to me. Red Bull were held back by the engines, but Renault seems to be fast progressing.

Vettel isn't the best driver, nor is he with the best team. I don't see why that would result in a title.

Vettel is a four time champion, one of the best of his generations, so how can he not be a contender for the title on that merit alone, if provided with the right car? By hiring Vettel, Ferrari did 50% what is needed for the WDC. The rest is clearly with them.

Listening to some fans on here some 18 months ago, I was under the impression that Vettel was going to do what Alonso failed to do, and "develop" the Ferrari car into a title winner.

Indeed, I was wondering about that as well. Where is the brigade gone claiming that it was all Alonso's fault and Vettel would magificiently create an ever upward development to new domination? It does not appear to be that easy, does it?


That said, I cannot answer the op's question. First, as others have pointed out, Ferrari needs to produce a sufficiently competitive car. Not exactly an automatism. But if they do, Vettel will be a title contender again. Second, who will be his teammate? As long as Ferrari keeps Räikkönen, no danger (yes, currently Räikkönen leads Vettel by one point - but I do not think that will last long). If Ferrari hires one of the current top drivers or an outstanding talent, things may look very different ...

Well you see what a better car and weaker teammate than in 2014 can do to people's perception. That Ricciardo beating him convincingly was suddenly forgotten and Seb was the miracle man at Ferrari while he hasn't pulled anything more impressive so far than Alonso did before.

Obviously Seb is among the best but if I read comments from Zoue he could beat any teammate. Given how Ricciardo has been performing this year I seriously doubt that theory.

Amon wrote:

Paolo_Lasardi wrote:

davidheath461 wrote:

Lt. Drebin wrote:

infi24r wrote:Seems unlikely to me. Red Bull were held back by the engines, but Renault seems to be fast progressing.

Vettel isn't the best driver, nor is he with the best team. I don't see why that would result in a title.

Vettel is a four time champion, one of the best of his generations, so how can he not be a contender for the title on that merit alone, if provided with the right car? By hiring Vettel, Ferrari did 50% what is needed for the WDC. The rest is clearly with them.

Listening to some fans on here some 18 months ago, I was under the impression that Vettel was going to do what Alonso failed to do, and "develop" the Ferrari car into a title winner.

Indeed, I was wondering about that as well. Where is the brigade gone claiming that it was all Alonso's fault and Vettel would magificiently create an ever upward development to new domination? It does not appear to be that easy, does it?


That said, I cannot answer the op's question. First, as others have pointed out, Ferrari needs to produce a sufficiently competitive car. Not exactly an automatism. But if they do, Vettel will be a title contender again. Second, who will be his teammate? As long as Ferrari keeps Räikkönen, no danger (yes, currently Räikkönen leads Vettel by one point - but I do not think that will last long). If Ferrari hires one of the current top drivers or an outstanding talent, things may look very different ...

Well you see what a better car and weaker teammate than in 2014 can do to people's perception. That Ricciardo beating him convincingly was suddenly forgotten and Seb was the miracle man at Ferrari while he hasn't pulled anything more impressive so far than Alonso did before.

Obviously Seb is among the best but if I read comments from Zoue he could beat any teammate. Given how Ricciardo has been performing this year I seriously doubt that theory.

I think he's capable of beating any team mate, but that doesn't make it a foregone conclusion. Lewis is more than capable of beating Button, but that didn't happen in 2011. However if they paired again my money would be on Lewis to win. I think Seb is capable of beating Ricciardo, but he'd have to work bloody hard to do it, as he would against Lewis or Alonso.

So are we more or less all on the official Ricciardo bandwagon that he is in that class, then? It's looking legitimate at the moment, but if he's going to get winning then he will have started to show prolificacy long after any of those other names did, in terms of their age and experience. Somehow, I still feel like I need to see more.

On topic though. I think not. I don't think Vettel will win a championship with Ferrari, but he may win another championship. This is a very different view to the one I had at the start of the season.

mikeyg123 wrote:

davidheath461 wrote:

Zoue wrote:

sandman1347 wrote:

Zoue wrote: I would say Vettel beat Webber even more comfortably than Lewis has beaten Rosberg and I'm not convinced Rosberg is any better than Webber. In fact I would say Vettel looks to be slightly ahead of Lewis overall. I don't see why he wouldn't win a title with Ferrari given a competitive car and I don't think he need fear who his team mate might be.

For me the issue is purely can Ferrari provide a championship-challenging car. If it's reasonably competitive then Vettel will have as good a chance as anyone of winning the title, whoever his team mate might be. And if Ferrari improve next year by as much as they have this year then they may well be competitive

We can agree to disagree. For me, Webber was past his prime throughout most of his time as Vettel's teammate (and was a journeyman driver even in his best days), as is evident by how much closer he was to Vettel in the first year or two of his partnership than he was in 2011-2013. Kimi is also clearly past his peak (and in my opinion was never more than a Massa level driver anyway). IMO 2014 was the only season where Vettel has had a top talent in the other car and he was not only defeated, he was destroyed. He was outqualified and outraced.

I think Rosberg is clearly better than Webber ever was. Rosberg dominated the matchup with Schumacher. Okay Michael was older and past his peak but he was never even close to beating Nico over a season. That says a lot. I also think Nico has performed admirably in taking the top car and beating everyone he should beat with it while Webber struggled to finish second much of the time and in fact failed to finish runner up in the dominant car repeatedly.

If you don't believe in Rosberg, what about Button or Alonso? Hamilton has faced strong teammates in almost every season of his career and has beaten them all save 2011. He has been measured against the best and has always looked faster than the guy in the other car.

It would be great to see Hamilton and Vettel as teammates but I doubt it will ever happen.

You make a good point with Nico's record against Schumacher but I would disagree that the latter never came close to beating him. In 2012 it was bad luck that beat Schumacher, not Nico (in much the same way that bad luck meant Lewis finished a mere two points ahead of Button that year, instead of by the landslide his own performance merited). In fact if you analyse their record as team mates it's clear that Schumacher was getting closer and closer year on year (and IMO surpassed Nico in 2012). Now either you think Schumacher got better as years went by, or you might consider that Schumacher took a while to get used to the new cars and tyres (remember the famous "greasy eggs comment). I know which one makes more sense to me.

Thing is, though, I consider both Webber and Nico to be above average drivers, just with different strengths and weaknesses. I don't have to talk Nico down to make Webber look better. Webber was very quick on his day. I'd put his racecraft slightly ahead of Nico's, but he struggled a lot with the Pirellis, particularly in the slower corners. If Nico had racecraft to match his raw speed he'd be almost unstoppable. As it is, he's fast but vulnerable.

Lewis is a very, very good driver. But I also think he makes a lot of mistakes and doesn't look as supreme when in traffic as he does when leading the race or just hassling Rosberg. Not that Vettel never makes mistakes, but I think not as many and I think overall he's the slightly better driver. Give him a competitive car and he'll be as good as anyone

Brilliant!

to be fair Zoue did specifically say that Vettel does sometimes make mistakes and all those pictures are from half a decade ago.

Yep if you have to reach back that far you know you're on a losing argument. You could probably bring up comparable images for any driver if you go back far enough.

Seb's not perfect, by any means. But I have found Lewis can be a little messy when carving his way through the field. There's no doubt he's talented, but it's a high risk strategy that often ends up with more than a few scratches if other drivers don't play ball. It's just my opinion but I think Vettel is just as effective at getting by other cars but collects less bodywork along the way, which is more impressive IMO.

Invade wrote:So are we more or less all on the official Ricciardo bandwagon that he is in that class, then? It's looking legitimate at the moment, but if he's going to get winning then he will have started to show prolificacy long after any of those other names did, in terms of their age and experience. Somehow, I still feel like I need to see more.

On topic though. I think not. I don't think Vettel will win a championship with Ferrari, but he may win another championship. This is a very different view to the one I had at the start of the season.

I don't think it can be in any doubt that Ricciardo is very talented. He's obviously quick and he has shown he can overtake, too, although sometimes he does adopt the battering ram approach a little too readily IMO. I doubt he'd be a walkover for anyone.