Ferrari and McLaren : Is it a culture thing?

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IDrinkYourMilkshake
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Ferrari and McLaren : Is it a culture thing?

Post by IDrinkYourMilkshake »

Let's look at facts. Ferrari was almost completely Italian through the 80s and 90s, then Jean Todt, Ross Brawn, Rory Byrne, Michael Schumacher turn up, and the work culture changes, and they win a lot. Then from 2007, the team becomes more and more Italian, and for many years the drivers were Latin too(even though Massa was abysmal), and they seem to be back where they used to be, competitive, but never the best, and firing personnel after personnel rather than upgrading a wind tunnel. Now they have two Italian heads giving out pseudo-manly comments race after race, "Ferrari is FERRARI, Ferrari must win", while the team can't even get things like tyre pressures right in qualifying. Vettel, who like Schumacher never criticises the team, is running out of ways to defend the team.

McLaren was great with German TAG engines, then a deep connection with Honda. Then Honda leaves, Mercedes isn't an ingrained part like Honda was, and they because this huge British conglomerate, more like a corporate entity than a racing team. To imagine that Adrian Newey with all the huge resources and brilliant drivers won only 2 WDCs and just ONE WCC in almost a decade at McLaren.. it really points out how the rest of the team was. They couldn't win with Alonso, barely won with Hamilton, couldn't win with the fastest car in 2012 because reliability failed them.

Mercedes has a German head, an Austrian head, a British head, British and German drivers. Red Bull has two Austrians, two Britishers, a Danish and Australian driver. I think the cultural mix of a team really does make a difference in terms of the diversity in ideas and working methods.

I honestly feel we see a long draught ahead for both these teams. I'd appreciate others' thoughts on how culture affects teams.

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Re: Ferrari and McLaren : Is it a culture thing?

Post by davidheath461 »

IDrinkYourMilkshake wrote:Vettel, who like Schumacher never criticises the team, is running out of ways to defend the team.
I assume you watched quali on mute? :lol:

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Re: Ferrari and McLaren : Is it a culture thing?

Post by IDrinkYourMilkshake »

davidheath461 wrote:
IDrinkYourMilkshake wrote:Vettel, who like Schumacher never criticises the team, is running out of ways to defend the team.
I assume you watched quali on mute? :lol:
Criticising on radio, telling the team the car has gone backwards, isn't the same as coming out after every race and saying "The car is too slow", like Fernando used to do.

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Re: Ferrari and McLaren : Is it a culture thing?

Post by davidheath461 »

Oh the irony! :lol:

Vettel after Barcelona 2016:
"I think we didn't get the car to work the way it should and that's why we underperformed – we were just too slow,"
Alonso after Barcelona 2011 (his 2nd season with the team):
“I am very happy with this result because we had never made it to the second row this year. Sure, pole position is still a long way off; today Red Bull was once again out of reach and we must work hard to try and get closer.”
Source:
http://www.gpupdate.net/en/f1-news/3392 ... ing-slump/
http://www.gpupdate.net/en/f1-news/2602 ... barcelona/


I think this idea that Alonso said "the car is too slow" after every race is merely an internet myth.

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Re: Ferrari and McLaren : Is it a culture thing?

Post by IDrinkYourMilkshake »

davidheath461 wrote:Oh the irony! :lol:

Vettel after Barcelona 2016:
"I think we didn't get the car to work the way it should and that's why we underperformed – we were just too slow,"
Alonso after Barcelona 2011 (his 2nd season with the team):
“I am very happy with this result because we had never made it to the second row this year. Sure, pole position is still a long way off; today Red Bull was once again out of reach and we must work hard to try and get closer.”
Source:
http://www.gpupdate.net/en/f1-news/3392 ... ing-slump/
http://www.gpupdate.net/en/f1-news/2602 ... barcelona/


I think this idea that Alonso said "the car is too slow" after every race is merely an internet myth.
Hey hey, I get enough crap on this forum. A month back when I complimented Fernando and pointed out Vettel's faults, people told me Vettel couldn't be my favourite. Now I'm being accused of maligning Fernando in favour of Sebastian. I'm a big fan of both! I still DO believe he was always eager to shift the blame to the team rather than himself. Which might be correct, but it does affect team morale, alienates the driver. Anyway, we are going off-topic, comment on the core issue. :)

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Re: Ferrari and McLaren : Is it a culture thing?

Post by davidheath461 »

IDrinkYourMilkshake wrote:
davidheath461 wrote:Oh the irony! :lol:

Vettel after Barcelona 2016:
"I think we didn't get the car to work the way it should and that's why we underperformed – we were just too slow,"
Alonso after Barcelona 2011 (his 2nd season with the team):
“I am very happy with this result because we had never made it to the second row this year. Sure, pole position is still a long way off; today Red Bull was once again out of reach and we must work hard to try and get closer.”
Source:
http://www.gpupdate.net/en/f1-news/3392 ... ing-slump/
http://www.gpupdate.net/en/f1-news/2602 ... barcelona/


I think this idea that Alonso said "the car is too slow" after every race is merely an internet myth.
Hey hey, I get enough crap on this forum. A month back when I complimented Fernando and pointed out Vettel's faults, people told me Vettel couldn't be my favourite. Now I'm being accused of maligning Fernando in favour of Sebastian. I'm a big fan of both! I still DO believe he was always eager to shift the blame to the team rather than himself. Which might be correct, but it does affect team morale, alienates the driver. Anyway, we are going off-topic, comment on the core issue. :)
Right...and Vettel was doing exactly the same thing today. Obviously, you can't win championships if your car is not fast enough, and fuzzy feelings are not going to make your car go faster.

Nothing to add on the core issues. I don't know what the culture is like at Mclaren/Ferrari since i've never worked at those teams. You've just listed the nationalities of some of the people in management positions at these teams, which means nothing to me.

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Re: Ferrari and McLaren : Is it a culture thing?

Post by Pullrod »

IDrinkYourMilkshake wrote:Let's look at facts. Ferrari was almost completely Italian through the 80s and 90s, then Jean Todt, Ross Brawn, Rory Byrne, Michael Schumacher turn up, and the work culture changes, and they win a lot. Then from 2007, the team becomes more and more Italian, and for many years the drivers were Latin too(even though Massa was abysmal), and they seem to be back where they used to be, competitive, but never the best, and firing personnel after personnel rather than upgrading a wind tunnel. Now they have two Italian heads giving out pseudo-manly comments race after race, "Ferrari is FERRARI, Ferrari must win", while the team can't even get things like tyre pressures right in qualifying. Vettel, who like Schumacher never criticises the team, is running out of ways to defend the team.

McLaren was great with German TAG engines, then a deep connection with Honda. Then Honda leaves, Mercedes isn't an ingrained part like Honda was, and they because this huge British conglomerate, more like a corporate entity than a racing team. To imagine that Adrian Newey with all the huge resources and brilliant drivers won only 2 WDCs and just ONE WCC in almost a decade at McLaren.. it really points out how the rest of the team was. They couldn't win with Alonso, barely won with Hamilton, couldn't win with the fastest car in 2012 because reliability failed them.

Mercedes has a German head, an Austrian head, a British head, British and German drivers. Red Bull has two Austrians, two Britishers, a Danish and Australian driver. I think the cultural mix of a team really does make a difference in terms of the diversity in ideas and working methods.

I honestly feel we see a long draught ahead for both these teams. I'd appreciate others' thoughts on how culture affects teams.
IT IS ABSOLUTELY A "CULTURE" THING..

I won't go into details because I would risk a warning/ban. :blush:

They need a TOTAL RESET at all LEVELS.

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Re: Ferrari and McLaren : Is it a culture thing?

Post by Asphalt_World »

IDrinkYourMilkshake wrote:Let's look at facts. Ferrari was almost completely Italian through the 80s and 90s, then Jean Todt, Ross Brawn, Rory Byrne, Michael Schumacher turn up, and the work culture changes, and they win a lot. Then from 2007, the team becomes more and more Italian, and for many years the drivers were Latin too(even though Massa was abysmal), and they seem to be back where they used to be, competitive, but never the best, and firing personnel after personnel rather than upgrading a wind tunnel. Now they have two Italian heads giving out pseudo-manly comments race after race, "Ferrari is FERRARI, Ferrari must win", while the team can't even get things like tyre pressures right in qualifying. Vettel, who like Schumacher never criticises the team, is running out of ways to defend the team.

McLaren was great with German TAG engines, then a deep connection with Honda. Then Honda leaves, Mercedes isn't an ingrained part like Honda was, and they because this huge British conglomerate, more like a corporate entity than a racing team. To imagine that Adrian Newey with all the huge resources and brilliant drivers won only 2 WDCs and just ONE WCC in almost a decade at McLaren.. it really points out how the rest of the team was. They couldn't win with Alonso, barely won with Hamilton, couldn't win with the fastest car in 2012 because reliability failed them.

Mercedes has a German head, an Austrian head, a British head, British and German drivers. Red Bull has two Austrians, two Britishers, a Danish and Australian driver. I think the cultural mix of a team really does make a difference in terms of the diversity in ideas and working methods.

I honestly feel we see a long draught ahead for both these teams. I'd appreciate others' thoughts on how culture affects teams.
That would be a new wind tunnel then.
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Re: Ferrari and McLaren : Is it a culture thing?

Post by IDrinkYourMilkshake »

Asphalt_World wrote:
IDrinkYourMilkshake wrote:Let's look at facts. Ferrari was almost completely Italian through the 80s and 90s, then Jean Todt, Ross Brawn, Rory Byrne, Michael Schumacher turn up, and the work culture changes, and they win a lot. Then from 2007, the team becomes more and more Italian, and for many years the drivers were Latin too(even though Massa was abysmal), and they seem to be back where they used to be, competitive, but never the best, and firing personnel after personnel rather than upgrading a wind tunnel. Now they have two Italian heads giving out pseudo-manly comments race after race, "Ferrari is FERRARI, Ferrari must win", while the team can't even get things like tyre pressures right in qualifying. Vettel, who like Schumacher never criticises the team, is running out of ways to defend the team.

McLaren was great with German TAG engines, then a deep connection with Honda. Then Honda leaves, Mercedes isn't an ingrained part like Honda was, and they because this huge British conglomerate, more like a corporate entity than a racing team. To imagine that Adrian Newey with all the huge resources and brilliant drivers won only 2 WDCs and just ONE WCC in almost a decade at McLaren.. it really points out how the rest of the team was. They couldn't win with Alonso, barely won with Hamilton, couldn't win with the fastest car in 2012 because reliability failed them.

Mercedes has a German head, an Austrian head, a British head, British and German drivers. Red Bull has two Austrians, two Britishers, a Danish and Australian driver. I think the cultural mix of a team really does make a difference in terms of the diversity in ideas and working methods.

I honestly feel we see a long draught ahead for both these teams. I'd appreciate others' thoughts on how culture affects teams.
That would be a new wind tunnel then.
:lol: Had to look that up.
Not my first language, English. I suppose it should be "Drought". Still beats native speakers thinking "Would Of'' is a term. :P

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Re: Ferrari and McLaren : Is it a culture thing?

Post by pokerman »

IDrinkYourMilkshake wrote:
davidheath461 wrote:
IDrinkYourMilkshake wrote:Vettel, who like Schumacher never criticises the team, is running out of ways to defend the team.
I assume you watched quali on mute? :lol:
Criticising on radio, telling the team the car has gone backwards, isn't the same as coming out after every race and saying "The car is too slow", like Fernando used to do.
No it's exactly the same thing, Schumacher to his credit never complained like that.
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Re: Ferrari and McLaren : Is it a culture thing?

Post by IDrinkYourMilkshake »

pokerman wrote:
IDrinkYourMilkshake wrote:
davidheath461 wrote:
IDrinkYourMilkshake wrote:Vettel, who like Schumacher never criticises the team, is running out of ways to defend the team.
I assume you watched quali on mute? :lol:
Criticising on radio, telling the team the car has gone backwards, isn't the same as coming out after every race and saying "The car is too slow", like Fernando used to do.
No it's exactly the same thing, Schumacher to his credit never complained like that.
Fernando did it almost every race, but fair enough. I agree though, it's astounding how Schumacher never criticised the team. He always treated the team and himself as one cohesive unit.

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Re: Ferrari and McLaren : Is it a culture thing?

Post by Asphalt_World »

IDrinkYourMilkshake wrote:
Asphalt_World wrote:
IDrinkYourMilkshake wrote:Let's look at facts. Ferrari was almost completely Italian through the 80s and 90s, then Jean Todt, Ross Brawn, Rory Byrne, Michael Schumacher turn up, and the work culture changes, and they win a lot. Then from 2007, the team becomes more and more Italian, and for many years the drivers were Latin too(even though Massa was abysmal), and they seem to be back where they used to be, competitive, but never the best, and firing personnel after personnel rather than upgrading a wind tunnel. Now they have two Italian heads giving out pseudo-manly comments race after race, "Ferrari is FERRARI, Ferrari must win", while the team can't even get things like tyre pressures right in qualifying. Vettel, who like Schumacher never criticises the team, is running out of ways to defend the team.

McLaren was great with German TAG engines, then a deep connection with Honda. Then Honda leaves, Mercedes isn't an ingrained part like Honda was, and they because this huge British conglomerate, more like a corporate entity than a racing team. To imagine that Adrian Newey with all the huge resources and brilliant drivers won only 2 WDCs and just ONE WCC in almost a decade at McLaren.. it really points out how the rest of the team was. They couldn't win with Alonso, barely won with Hamilton, couldn't win with the fastest car in 2012 because reliability failed them.

Mercedes has a German head, an Austrian head, a British head, British and German drivers. Red Bull has two Austrians, two Britishers, a Danish and Australian driver. I think the cultural mix of a team really does make a difference in terms of the diversity in ideas and working methods.

I honestly feel we see a long draught ahead for both these teams. I'd appreciate others' thoughts on how culture affects teams.
That would be a new wind tunnel then.
:lol: Had to look that up.
Not my first language, English. I suppose it should be "Drought". Still beats native speakers thinking "Would Of'' is a term. :P
As a second language, your English is extremely good! 'Would of, should of, could of' all annoy me too.
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Re: Ferrari and McLaren : Is it a culture thing?

Post by IDrinkYourMilkshake »

Asphalt_World wrote:
IDrinkYourMilkshake wrote:
Asphalt_World wrote:
IDrinkYourMilkshake wrote:Let's look at facts. Ferrari was almost completely Italian through the 80s and 90s, then Jean Todt, Ross Brawn, Rory Byrne, Michael Schumacher turn up, and the work culture changes, and they win a lot. Then from 2007, the team becomes more and more Italian, and for many years the drivers were Latin too(even though Massa was abysmal), and they seem to be back where they used to be, competitive, but never the best, and firing personnel after personnel rather than upgrading a wind tunnel. Now they have two Italian heads giving out pseudo-manly comments race after race, "Ferrari is FERRARI, Ferrari must win", while the team can't even get things like tyre pressures right in qualifying. Vettel, who like Schumacher never criticises the team, is running out of ways to defend the team.

McLaren was great with German TAG engines, then a deep connection with Honda. Then Honda leaves, Mercedes isn't an ingrained part like Honda was, and they because this huge British conglomerate, more like a corporate entity than a racing team. To imagine that Adrian Newey with all the huge resources and brilliant drivers won only 2 WDCs and just ONE WCC in almost a decade at McLaren.. it really points out how the rest of the team was. They couldn't win with Alonso, barely won with Hamilton, couldn't win with the fastest car in 2012 because reliability failed them.

Mercedes has a German head, an Austrian head, a British head, British and German drivers. Red Bull has two Austrians, two Britishers, a Danish and Australian driver. I think the cultural mix of a team really does make a difference in terms of the diversity in ideas and working methods.

I honestly feel we see a long draught ahead for both these teams. I'd appreciate others' thoughts on how culture affects teams.
That would be a new wind tunnel then.
:lol: Had to look that up.
Not my first language, English. I suppose it should be "Drought". Still beats native speakers thinking "Would Of'' is a term. :P
As a second language, your English is extremely good! 'Would of, should of, could of' all annoy me too.
It's actually my fourth language out of five, but thank you. :)

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Re: Ferrari and McLaren : Is it a culture thing?

Post by GingerFurball »

IDrinkYourMilkshake wrote:
pokerman wrote:
IDrinkYourMilkshake wrote:
davidheath461 wrote:
IDrinkYourMilkshake wrote:Vettel, who like Schumacher never criticises the team, is running out of ways to defend the team.
I assume you watched quali on mute? :lol:
Criticising on radio, telling the team the car has gone backwards, isn't the same as coming out after every race and saying "The car is too slow", like Fernando used to do.
No it's exactly the same thing, Schumacher to his credit never complained like that.
Fernando did it almost every race, but fair enough. I agree though, it's astounding how Schumacher never criticised the team. He always treated the team and himself as one cohesive unit.
Because bar 1996 and 2005 Schumacher always had a car that had him in the running for titles.

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Re: Ferrari and McLaren : Is it a culture thing?

Post by IDrinkYourMilkshake »

GingerFurball wrote:
IDrinkYourMilkshake wrote:
Fernando did it almost every race, but fair enough. I agree though, it's astounding how Schumacher never criticised the team. He always treated the team and himself as one cohesive unit.
Because bar 1996 and 2005 Schumacher always had a car that had him in the running for titles.
Not really. 1997 near miss, 1998 near miss, 2006 near miss. Specially in 1997 and 1998, he could've been frustrated like Alonso was in 2011 and especially 2012. Actually 1998 and 2012 are very similar seasons.
Their 3rd seasons in Ferrari, and brilliant driving by both of them, battling a much faster Newey car and taking the fight to the last race. But Schumacher didn't blame the slower car, Fernando did. It's just different approaches.

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Re: Ferrari and McLaren : Is it a culture thing?

Post by mpls2 »

IDrinkYourMilkshake wrote:Let's look at facts. Ferrari was almost completely Italian through the 80s and 90s, then Jean Todt, Ross Brawn, Rory Byrne, Michael Schumacher turn up, and the work culture changes, and they win a lot. Then from 2007, the team becomes more and more Italian, and for many years the drivers were Latin too(even though Massa was abysmal), and they seem to be back where they used to be, competitive, but never the best, and firing personnel after personnel rather than upgrading a wind tunnel. Now they have two Italian heads giving out pseudo-manly comments race after race, "Ferrari is FERRARI, Ferrari must win", while the team can't even get things like tyre pressures right in qualifying. Vettel, who like Schumacher never criticises the team, is running out of ways to defend the team.

McLaren was great with German TAG engines, then a deep connection with Honda. Then Honda leaves, Mercedes isn't an ingrained part like Honda was, and they because this huge British conglomerate, more like a corporate entity than a racing team. To imagine that Adrian Newey with all the huge resources and brilliant drivers won only 2 WDCs and just ONE WCC in almost a decade at McLaren.. it really points out how the rest of the team was. They couldn't win with Alonso, barely won with Hamilton, couldn't win with the fastest car in 2012 because reliability failed them.

Mercedes has a German head, an Austrian head, a British head, British and German drivers. Red Bull has two Austrians, two Britishers, a Danish and Australian driver. I think the cultural mix of a team really does make a difference in terms of the diversity in ideas and working methods.

I honestly feel we see a long draught ahead for both these teams. I'd appreciate others' thoughts on how culture affects teams.

If Maclaren was great with TAG, then surely Maclaren was outstanding with Honda between 1988-1991.
Don't think it's cultural, it's more about the right people ( not just one man) at the right time, no matter from which country

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Re: Ferrari and McLaren : Is it a culture thing?

Post by Amon »

IDrinkYourMilkshake wrote: Red Bull has two Austrians, two Britishers, a Danish and Australian driver. I think the cultural mix of a team really does make a difference in terms of the diversity in ideas and working methods.

I honestly feel we see a long draught ahead for both these teams. I'd appreciate others' thoughts on how culture affects teams.
I didn't know Max was from Denmark? Or has he been replaced with Kmag 8O
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Re: Ferrari and McLaren : Is it a culture thing?

Post by davidheath461 »

IDrinkYourMilkshake wrote:
GingerFurball wrote:
IDrinkYourMilkshake wrote:
Fernando did it almost every race, but fair enough. I agree though, it's astounding how Schumacher never criticised the team. He always treated the team and himself as one cohesive unit.
Because bar 1996 and 2005 Schumacher always had a car that had him in the running for titles.
Not really. 1997 near miss, 1998 near miss, 2006 near miss. Specially in 1997 and 1998, he could've been frustrated like Alonso was in 2011 and especially 2012. Actually 1998 and 2012 are very similar seasons.
Their 3rd seasons in Ferrari, and brilliant driving by both of them, battling a much faster Newey car and taking the fight to the last race. But Schumacher didn't blame the slower car, Fernando did. It's just different approaches.
Do you understand what "in the running for the title means".

It's not a fair comparison anyway. Schumacher saw improvements with the Ferrari car in every successive season from 1996-2002. Obviously, Alonso did not.

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Re: Ferrari and McLaren : Is it a culture thing?

Post by Blinky McSquinty »

For both and McLaren and Ferrari, their upper management has been firmly entrenched for decades. That adds stability and great business contacts, but it also inhibits these companies from being flexible and adopting new management methods. As in almost every business that has been around for decades, they must adapt and change to new market and competition conditions, or they get left behind. That can apply to auto manufacturers, garments manufacturers, or race teams.

It's not an ethnic culture thing, but a business culture thing, where they have become slow to adapt to new conditions and ways of doing things. Even Enzo Ferrari resisted the new light rear engine cars, deriding them as "garagistas", these small and new privateers doing things differently.

In Formula One everything runs in cycles. And the tale of Michael Schumacher and Ferrari is a classic example. Ferrari were doing things their way, and becoming an embarrassment in the 1990's. Eventually the Ferrari Board of Governors had enough, and demanded a complete revamp. So the dream team was recruited, they made massive changes in how Ferrari operated, and eventually they enjoyed five years of domination. But success can be a cancer, internal politics drove away the dream team, while the remaining team kept doing things as always. New ideas and new methods came in from other teams and directions, and suddenly Ferrari were old news while Salvatore Briatore and others introduced new business methods.

The rise, fall, and rebirth of Williams follows this same theme. Sir Frank Williams and Patrick Head were once the shining beacon of success. But as the years passed, the team was still controlled by those two individuals, and Williams got left behind. Frank and Patrick got old, they became incapable of accepting the new ways of doing things. But they were smart enough to recognize this, and stepped aside, turning over control to others. And once that happened, the team began the climb back to respectability.

There is an old saying ... adapt or die.
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Re: Ferrari and McLaren : Is it a culture thing?

Post by iano »

IDrinkYourMilkshake wrote:
Asphalt_World wrote:
IDrinkYourMilkshake wrote: .........
I honestly feel we see a long draught ahead for both these teams. I'd appreciate others' thoughts on how culture affects teams.
That would be a new wind tunnel then.
:lol: Had to look that up.
Not my first language, English. I suppose it should be "Drought". Still beats native speakers thinking "Would Of'' is a term. :P
I think he believes they will be spending a long time drinking beer as there is no pint racing.

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Re: Ferrari and McLaren : Is it a culture thing?

Post by James14 »

mpls2 wrote:
IDrinkYourMilkshake wrote:Let's look at facts. Ferrari was almost completely Italian through the 80s and 90s, then Jean Todt, Ross Brawn, Rory Byrne, Michael Schumacher turn up, and the work culture changes, and they win a lot. Then from 2007, the team becomes more and more Italian, and for many years the drivers were Latin too(even though Massa was abysmal), and they seem to be back where they used to be, competitive, but never the best, and firing personnel after personnel rather than upgrading a wind tunnel. Now they have two Italian heads giving out pseudo-manly comments race after race, "Ferrari is FERRARI, Ferrari must win", while the team can't even get things like tyre pressures right in qualifying. Vettel, who like Schumacher never criticises the team, is running out of ways to defend the team.

McLaren was great with German TAG engines, then a deep connection with Honda. Then Honda leaves, Mercedes isn't an ingrained part like Honda was, and they because this huge British conglomerate, more like a corporate entity than a racing team. To imagine that Adrian Newey with all the huge resources and brilliant drivers won only 2 WDCs and just ONE WCC in almost a decade at McLaren.. it really points out how the rest of the team was. They couldn't win with Alonso, barely won with Hamilton, couldn't win with the fastest car in 2012 because reliability failed them.

Mercedes has a German head, an Austrian head, a British head, British and German drivers. Red Bull has two Austrians, two Britishers, a Danish and Australian driver. I think the cultural mix of a team really does make a difference in terms of the diversity in ideas and working methods.

I honestly feel we see a long draught ahead for both these teams. I'd appreciate others' thoughts on how culture affects teams.

If Maclaren was great with TAG, then surely Maclaren was outstanding with Honda between 1988-1991.
Don't think it's cultural, it's more about the right people ( not just one man) at the right time, no matter from which country
Exactly. +1 :thumbup:

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Re: Ferrari and McLaren : Is it a culture thing?

Post by Asphalt_World »

It's very easy to say that when Ferrari are running badly, it's all the Italians fault and internal fighting. When they are running well it's because of the influence of people from the UK or wherever.

Ferrari won an awful lot of races and championships long before the Todt, Brawn, Byrne era, probably when they were at their most Italian in terms of workforce.
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Re: Ferrari and McLaren : Is it a culture thing?

Post by LKS1 »

Asphalt_World wrote:It's very easy to say that when Ferrari are running badly, it's all the Italians fault and internal fighting. When they are running well it's because of the influence of people from the UK or wherever.

Ferrari won an awful lot of races and championships long before the Todt, Brawn, Byrne era, probably when they were at their most Italian in terms of workforce.
Prior to the 'dream team' was before I started watching, so were Ferrari championship contenders for as many years previously?

Asphalt_World
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Re: Ferrari and McLaren : Is it a culture thing?

Post by Asphalt_World »

LKS1 wrote:
Asphalt_World wrote:It's very easy to say that when Ferrari are running badly, it's all the Italians fault and internal fighting. When they are running well it's because of the influence of people from the UK or wherever.

Ferrari won an awful lot of races and championships long before the Todt, Brawn, Byrne era, probably when they were at their most Italian in terms of workforce.
Prior to the 'dream team' was before I started watching, so were Ferrari championship contenders for as many years previously?
Check the record books. Yes the 80's were poor, but historically they are the most successful team ever, not only down to the Schumacher era.

I'm fairly sure that Ferrari ran a VERY Italian team though the 50's 60's and 70's.

Plus Senna took Prost off on purpose to stop Prost winning in a Ferrari.
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LKS1
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Re: Ferrari and McLaren : Is it a culture thing?

Post by LKS1 »

Asphalt_World wrote:
LKS1 wrote:
Asphalt_World wrote:It's very easy to say that when Ferrari are running badly, it's all the Italians fault and internal fighting. When they are running well it's because of the influence of people from the UK or wherever.

Ferrari won an awful lot of races and championships long before the Todt, Brawn, Byrne era, probably when they were at their most Italian in terms of workforce.
Prior to the 'dream team' was before I started watching, so were Ferrari championship contenders for as many years previously?
Check the record books. Yes the 80's were poor, but historically they are the most successful team ever, not only down to the Schumacher era.

I'm fairly sure that Ferrari ran a VERY Italian team though the 50's 60's and 70's.

Plus Senna took Prost off on purpose to stop Prost winning in a Ferrari.
It doesn't suprise me that Ferrari are the most successful team ever in F1, as they have been competing since the start.

Which is why I asked whether anyone knew whether there had been an equally long winning streak during their history than during the 'dream team' years?

Asphalt_World
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Re: Ferrari and McLaren : Is it a culture thing?

Post by Asphalt_World »

LKS1 wrote:
Asphalt_World wrote:
LKS1 wrote:
Asphalt_World wrote:It's very easy to say that when Ferrari are running badly, it's all the Italians fault and internal fighting. When they are running well it's because of the influence of people from the UK or wherever.

Ferrari won an awful lot of races and championships long before the Todt, Brawn, Byrne era, probably when they were at their most Italian in terms of workforce.
Prior to the 'dream team' was before I started watching, so were Ferrari championship contenders for as many years previously?
Check the record books. Yes the 80's were poor, but historically they are the most successful team ever, not only down to the Schumacher era.

I'm fairly sure that Ferrari ran a VERY Italian team though the 50's 60's and 70's.

Plus Senna took Prost off on purpose to stop Prost winning in a Ferrari.
It doesn't suprise me that Ferrari are the most successful team ever in F1, as they have been competing since the start.

Which is why I asked whether anyone knew whether there had been an equally long winning streak during their history than during the 'dream team' years?
They've not been in it that much longer than some other teams. Anyway, whilst I don't think they've had the run of success they had with Schumacher driving, this does not instantly mean it's a cultural thing and that Ferrari HAVE to have significant none Italian influences in their team to succeed.
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LKS1
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Re: Ferrari and McLaren : Is it a culture thing?

Post by LKS1 »

Asphalt_World wrote:
LKS1 wrote:
Asphalt_World wrote:
LKS1 wrote:
Asphalt_World wrote:It's very easy to say that when Ferrari are running badly, it's all the Italians fault and internal fighting. When they are running well it's because of the influence of people from the UK or wherever.

Ferrari won an awful lot of races and championships long before the Todt, Brawn, Byrne era, probably when they were at their most Italian in terms of workforce.
Prior to the 'dream team' was before I started watching, so were Ferrari championship contenders for as many years previously?
Check the record books. Yes the 80's were poor, but historically they are the most successful team ever, not only down to the Schumacher era.

I'm fairly sure that Ferrari ran a VERY Italian team though the 50's 60's and 70's.

Plus Senna took Prost off on purpose to stop Prost winning in a Ferrari.
It doesn't suprise me that Ferrari are the most successful team ever in F1, as they have been competing since the start.

Which is why I asked whether anyone knew whether there had been an equally long winning streak during their history than during the 'dream team' years?
They've not been in it that much longer than some other teams. Anyway, whilst I don't think they've had the run of success they had with Schumacher driving, this does not instantly mean it's a cultural thing and that Ferrari HAVE to have significant none Italian influences in their team to succeed.
To summarise your post - the only long-running Ferrari success was when they had the dream team.

Other than that, they've generally been there or thereabouts and a team often capable of winning a few races in most seasons.

The OP may well have a point about 'the culture' in teams.

Asphalt_World
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Re: Ferrari and McLaren : Is it a culture thing?

Post by Asphalt_World »

Name a team that's had continued success over their history in F1 (I'm not including things like the Brawn year of course) and let's see if certain teams like Ferrari and McLaren have more of an issue with continued success than any other.
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LKS1
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Re: Ferrari and McLaren : Is it a culture thing?

Post by LKS1 »

Asphalt_World wrote:Name a team that's had continued success over their history in F1 (I'm not including things like the Brawn year of course) and let's see if certain teams like Ferrari and McLaren have more of an issue with continued success than any other.
Absolutely - none until the dream team at Ferrari :-P ! Which is why I was asking for another similar period of success.

iano
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Re: Ferrari and McLaren : Is it a culture thing?

Post by iano »

mpls2 wrote: If Maclaren was great with TAG, then surely Maclaren was outstanding with Honda between 1988-1991.
Don't think it's cultural, it's more about the right people ( not just one man) at the right time, no matter from which country
I agree.

The premise of the original post seems to be that nationality dictates team culture.

Nationality dictates culture in the sense of cultural heritage and traditions of food, drink dance and religion, even in that case it does not dictate what every individual from the country actually likes.

Despite the stereotypes, nations are not filled with people all of one exact same mindset, only for the next country to all uniformly have another mindset.

The nationality does not dictate team culture, the group of individuals in the team does. If a team is all of one nationality, it does suggest that there is a culture of nationalism in the team, which may indicate a close minded group.

I do believe there is evidence for a culture of arrogance at some teams that works against them. When you are at the top sometimes you need to be arrogant, but it certainly works against you when you are no longer at the top. But it has nothing to do with nationality and all to do with the mindset of the people in the team.

Asphalt_World
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Re: Ferrari and McLaren : Is it a culture thing?

Post by Asphalt_World »

LKS1 wrote:
Asphalt_World wrote:Name a team that's had continued success over their history in F1 (I'm not including things like the Brawn year of course) and let's see if certain teams like Ferrari and McLaren have more of an issue with continued success than any other.
Absolutely - none until the dream team at Ferrari :-P ! Which is why I was asking for another similar period of success.
Not sure what your trying to prove though!
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