Best overtakes in Monaco!

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mikeyg123
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Re: Best overtakes in Monaco!

Post by mikeyg123 »

Fiki wrote:Quite simply, mikey, because they knew it was the final lap, and they had read the rule that said no overtaking.
Only when the safety car was deployed. Which it wasn't. Green flags clearly shown.

Whatever your biases RE the people involved

The fact that even a few years later people still disagree about the interpretation of the rule clearly shows how unclear it was and shows exactly why it had to be ammended post Monaco.

Fiki
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Re: Best overtakes in Monaco!

Post by Fiki »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Fiki wrote:Quite simply, mikey, because they knew it was the final lap, and they had read the rule that said no overtaking.
Only when the safety car was deployed. Which it wasn't. Green flags clearly shown.

Whatever your biases RE the people involved

The fact that even a few years later people still disagree about the interpretation of the rule clearly shows how unclear it was and shows exactly why it had to be ammended post Monaco.
I think it is important to make a distinction between a potential for misunderstanding, and seeking room to twist the FIA's arm.

You say that the SC was no longer deployed, but even the SC has to follow the rules, which said that on the last lap it was to come in. Which it did. As per the rules, there was to be no overtaking.
I have also read what Brawn said about the incident, and he said that they received an instruction that the SC was coming in at the end of the lap. For him, that meant that the race was back on. Now, how could he think that, with the rule in place that there was to be no overtaking? It is important to note that Brawn didn't say he received an instruction that the race was back on, had that been the case, the FIA would have committed a massive blunder against its own rules.

Siao7 referred to an article by Andrew Benson, which I have also read now. His update is particularly interesting as it completely contradicts his reporting after the race. Interestingly, he initially speaks of the team managers calling the FIA to point out that overtaking wasn't allowed. Unfortunately, he doesn't indicate where he got that information - it might well be from the FIA itself, in the person of Whiting or the stewards.
Whether the fact that he speaks of the team managers, rather than racing engineers, is important, I can't tell. But the update itself is little short of making the teams look quite ridiculous. The three teams that supposedly told their drivers they could race, clearly forgot about the rule that forbids it. Two teams clearly read all of the relevant rules, and one team apparently said the drivers could race but not overtake! :lol:

I don't know whether radio transcripts were available in those days, but for the interest of racing history, it would be nice to check what those teams really did say to their drivers. I think the difference between the initial report (1 team only) and the update (3 teams) is too suspicious to not to explore, if information is available.

My personal bias has nothing to do with how I read the rules. I will always be the first person to insist on the clearest possible rules, but in this case Brawn was overreaching. I wouldn't even be surprised if it wasn't Brawn who made the error himself.
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mikeyg123
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Re: Best overtakes in Monaco!

Post by mikeyg123 »

Fiki wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Fiki wrote:Quite simply, mikey, because they knew it was the final lap, and they had read the rule that said no overtaking.
Only when the safety car was deployed. Which it wasn't. Green flags clearly shown.

Whatever your biases RE the people involved

The fact that even a few years later people still disagree about the interpretation of the rule clearly shows how unclear it was and shows exactly why it had to be ammended post Monaco.
I think it is important to make a distinction between a potential for misunderstanding, and seeking room to twist the FIA's arm.

You say that the SC was no longer deployed, but even the SC has to follow the rules, which said that on the last lap it was to come in. Which it did. As per the rules, there was to be no overtaking.
I have also read what Brawn said about the incident, and he said that they received an instruction that the SC was coming in at the end of the lap. For him, that meant that the race was back on. Now, how could he think that, with the rule in place that there was to be no overtaking? It is important to note that Brawn didn't say he received an instruction that the race was back on, had that been the case, the FIA would have committed a massive blunder against its own rules.

Siao7 referred to an article by Andrew Benson, which I have also read now. His update is particularly interesting as it completely contradicts his reporting after the race. Interestingly, he initially speaks of the team managers calling the FIA to point out that overtaking wasn't allowed. Unfortunately, he doesn't indicate where he got that information - it might well be from the FIA itself, in the person of Whiting or the stewards.
Whether the fact that he speaks of the team managers, rather than racing engineers, is important, I can't tell. But the update itself is little short of making the teams look quite ridiculous. The three teams that supposedly told their drivers they could race, clearly forgot about the rule that forbids it. Two teams clearly read all of the relevant rules, and one team apparently said the drivers could race but not overtake! :lol:

I don't know whether radio transcripts were available in those days, but for the interest of racing history, it would be nice to check what those teams really did say to their drivers. I think the difference between the initial report (1 team only) and the update (3 teams) is too suspicious to not to explore, if information is available.

My personal bias has nothing to do with how I read the rules. I will always be the first person to insist on the clearest possible rules, but in this case Brawn was overreaching. I wouldn't even be surprised if it wasn't Brawn who made the error himself.
Is that not exactly what the green flags indicate? If the FIA did make a blunder of that nature would it be the first time? Is it unheard of or impossible?

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mds
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Re: Best overtakes in Monaco!

Post by mds »

Fiki wrote: You say that the SC was no longer deployed, but even the SC has to follow the rules, which said that on the last lap it was to come in. Which it did. As per the rules, there was to be no overtaking.
The race ended under green flag, which, as per the rules, meant that cars could overtake from the SC line onwards. Which is exactly what happened.
If they had wanted the race to end under SC conditions, flags should have remained yellow. The SC would still have come in, but there was no overtaking allowed in that case.

There was no rule in place that stated "if the last lap starts under SC conditions, it will end under SC conditions as well".
Only "if the race ends under SC conditions, the SC will pull into the pits and no overtaking is allowed".

Read that well: IF the race ends under SC conditions, then no overtaking allowed. This allows for a race NOT ending under SC conditions even in the case the last lap started under SC conditions. And in that case you could overtake.

The changes to the rule made sure the last lap became an exception to the normal SC rules. Before that the last lap wast just like any other: SC conditions could be lifted in that lap.
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Siao7
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Re: Best overtakes in Monaco!

Post by Siao7 »

Fiki wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Fiki wrote:Quite simply, mikey, because they knew it was the final lap, and they had read the rule that said no overtaking.
Only when the safety car was deployed. Which it wasn't. Green flags clearly shown.

Whatever your biases RE the people involved

The fact that even a few years later people still disagree about the interpretation of the rule clearly shows how unclear it was and shows exactly why it had to be ammended post Monaco.
I think it is important to make a distinction between a potential for misunderstanding, and seeking room to twist the FIA's arm.

You say that the SC was no longer deployed, but even the SC has to follow the rules, which said that on the last lap it was to come in. Which it did. As per the rules, there was to be no overtaking.
I have also read what Brawn said about the incident, and he said that they received an instruction that the SC was coming in at the end of the lap. For him, that meant that the race was back on. Now, how could he think that, with the rule in place that there was to be no overtaking? It is important to note that Brawn didn't say he received an instruction that the race was back on, had that been the case, the FIA would have committed a massive blunder against its own rules.

Siao7 referred to an article by Andrew Benson, which I have also read now. His update is particularly interesting as it completely contradicts his reporting after the race. Interestingly, he initially speaks of the team managers calling the FIA to point out that overtaking wasn't allowed. Unfortunately, he doesn't indicate where he got that information - it might well be from the FIA itself, in the person of Whiting or the stewards.
Whether the fact that he speaks of the team managers, rather than racing engineers, is important, I can't tell. But the update itself is little short of making the teams look quite ridiculous. The three teams that supposedly told their drivers they could race, clearly forgot about the rule that forbids it. Two teams clearly read all of the relevant rules, and one team apparently said the drivers could race but not overtake! :lol:

I don't know whether radio transcripts were available in those days, but for the interest of racing history, it would be nice to check what those teams really did say to their drivers. I think the difference between the initial report (1 team only) and the update (3 teams) is too suspicious to not to explore, if information is available.

My personal bias has nothing to do with how I read the rules. I will always be the first person to insist on the clearest possible rules, but in this case Brawn was overreaching. I wouldn't even be surprised if it wasn't Brawn who made the error himself.
Do they send instructions to the teams every time the race is on? I always knew that they just get the green flags.


So 4 out of 6 teams told their drivers that they can race. More than half from the 6 teams then, thank you for re-enforcing the point. I always suspected that the team that told their drivers to race but not overtake was Red Bull, not wanting to ruin the 1-2 position but also to be vigilant and not be overtaken.

Fun fact, guess what happened in the race after that.


As for Brawn overreaching, you should change it to Brawn and another 3 team principals.

Caserole of Nonsense
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Re: Best overtakes in Monaco!

Post by Caserole of Nonsense »

Toby. wrote:
Caserole of Nonsense wrote: Think someone has told ric he is the worlds best overtaker and he believed it. Going by the last race with vettel he aint. I dont mind someone having a go like above but the monaco one was dodgy at best and he didnt make either move stick with vettel in spain, and could have caused an accident if vettel hadnt jumped out the way. any crap driver (not saying that ric is crap by the way) can throw one down the inside and not make it stick. not much skill in that for me.
Perhaps if somebody did tell him that it was because of the many impressive moves he's made in races other than the single one you used as an example.
there were 3 examples that i used above and i know there is more. he has made some great overtakes but you're only as good as your last overtake :)

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Re: Best overtakes in Monaco!

Post by tootsie323 »

Caserole of Nonsense wrote:
Toby. wrote:
Caserole of Nonsense wrote: Think someone has told ric he is the worlds best overtaker and he believed it. Going by the last race with vettel he aint. I dont mind someone having a go like above but the monaco one was dodgy at best and he didnt make either move stick with vettel in spain, and could have caused an accident if vettel hadnt jumped out the way. any crap driver (not saying that ric is crap by the way) can throw one down the inside and not make it stick. not much skill in that for me.
Perhaps if somebody did tell him that it was because of the many impressive moves he's made in races other than the single one you used as an example.
there were 3 examples that i used above and i know there is more. he has made some great overtakes but you're only as good as your last overtake :)
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Re: Best overtakes in Monaco!

Post by Fiki »

mds wrote:
Fiki wrote: You say that the SC was no longer deployed, but even the SC has to follow the rules, which said that on the last lap it was to come in. Which it did. As per the rules, there was to be no overtaking.
The race ended under green flag, which, as per the rules, meant that cars could overtake from the SC line onwards. Which is exactly what happened.
If they had wanted the race to end under SC conditions, flags should have remained yellow. The SC would still have come in, but there was no overtaking allowed in that case.

There was no rule in place that stated "if the last lap starts under SC conditions, it will end under SC conditions as well".
Only "if the race ends under SC conditions, the SC will pull into the pits and no overtaking is allowed".

Read that well: IF the race ends under SC conditions, then no overtaking allowed. This allows for a race NOT ending under SC conditions even in the case the last lap started under SC conditions. And in that case you could overtake.

The changes to the rule made sure the last lap became an exception to the normal SC rules. Before that the last lap wast just like any other: SC conditions could be lifted in that lap.
I have read it well, and read it well before. The problem with your remark is that in that particular case, a communication from Race Control/Stewards would have been necessary, stating that rule 40.13 - forbidding overtaking - would not apply. The reason is clear: the SC was deployed at the start of the final lap, and SC boards and yellows were waved up to Rascasse, where the SC peeled off. (This is why I was so surprised to see Brawn apparently didn't understand this was the final lap. Which, of course, he did know.)

Siao7 asked whether they send instructions every time the race is on. From what I understand from Brawn's message, the teams were indeed told that the SC would be coming in at the end of the final lap, so I'm fairly confident they would receive a communication at every time the SC would be deployed or brought in. It's been a few years since I read about such messages, but I believe that in 2008 communication between the pitwall and Race Control was via e-mail. Perhaps another forum member knows more about this than I do/did.
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mcdo
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Re: Best overtakes in Monaco!

Post by mcdo »

Fiki wrote:
mds wrote:
Fiki wrote: You say that the SC was no longer deployed, but even the SC has to follow the rules, which said that on the last lap it was to come in. Which it did. As per the rules, there was to be no overtaking.
The race ended under green flag, which, as per the rules, meant that cars could overtake from the SC line onwards. Which is exactly what happened.
If they had wanted the race to end under SC conditions, flags should have remained yellow. The SC would still have come in, but there was no overtaking allowed in that case.

There was no rule in place that stated "if the last lap starts under SC conditions, it will end under SC conditions as well".
Only "if the race ends under SC conditions, the SC will pull into the pits and no overtaking is allowed".

Read that well: IF the race ends under SC conditions, then no overtaking allowed. This allows for a race NOT ending under SC conditions even in the case the last lap started under SC conditions. And in that case you could overtake.

The changes to the rule made sure the last lap became an exception to the normal SC rules. Before that the last lap wast just like any other: SC conditions could be lifted in that lap.
I have read it well, and read it well before. The problem with your remark is that in that particular case, a communication from Race Control/Stewards would have been necessary, stating that rule 40.13 - forbidding overtaking - would not apply. The reason is clear: the SC was deployed at the start of the final lap, and SC boards and yellows were waved up to Rascasse, where the SC peeled off. (This is why I was so surprised to see Brawn apparently didn't understand this was the final lap. Which, of course, he did know.)

Siao7 asked whether they send instructions every time the race is on. From what I understand from Brawn's message, the teams were indeed told that the SC would be coming in at the end of the final lap, so I'm fairly confident they would receive a communication at every time the SC would be deployed or brought in. It's been a few years since I read about such messages, but I believe that in 2008 communication between the pitwall and Race Control was via e-mail. Perhaps another forum member knows more about this than I do/did.
The SC being deployed at the start of the final lap doesn't matter. There was nothing about that in the regulations.

And as I stated above there was more to the rule:
The Rules wrote:"As the safety car is approaching the pit entry the yellow flags and SC boards will be withdrawn and replaced by waved green flags with green lights at the Line. These will be displayed until the last car crosses the Line."
The marshalls didn't follow this. They invalidated the regulation and turned it back into a race.
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mds
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Re: Best overtakes in Monaco!

Post by mds »

Fiki wrote:The problem with your remark is that in that particular case, a communication from Race Control/Stewards would have been necessary, stating that rule 40.13 - forbidding overtaking - would not apply.
That is not true. Rule 40.13 is clear in that: the prohibition to overtake is subject to the race ending under SC conditions. If the race doesn't end under SC conditions, then 40.13 simply doesn't apply.

And there was no exception for lifting SC conditions in the last lap at that time and all the conditions were met for lifting the SC conditions. Basically the procedure happened as if it would have on any other lap, and on any other lap overtaking would also have been allowed. This being the last lap doesn't change the fact overtaking was effectively allowed. Only in case the SC conditions were not lifted, overtaking was not allowed. But they were.
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Re: Best overtakes in Monaco!

Post by mikeyg123 »

mds wrote:
Fiki wrote:The problem with your remark is that in that particular case, a communication from Race Control/Stewards would have been necessary, stating that rule 40.13 - forbidding overtaking - would not apply.
That is not true. Rule 40.13 is clear in that: the prohibition to overtake is subject to the race ending under SC conditions. If the race doesn't end under SC conditions, then 40.13 simply doesn't apply.

And there was no exception for lifting SC conditions in the last lap at that time and all the conditions were met for lifting the SC conditions. Basically the procedure happened as if it would have on any other lap, and on any other lap overtaking would also have been allowed. This being the last lap doesn't change the fact overtaking was effectively allowed. Only in case the SC conditions were not lifted, overtaking was not allowed. But they were.
And surely the flying of green flags was a "communication from race control" anyway. Green flags means race on and nowhere in those rules does it contradict that. How could the teams know that the race ended under the safety car? Post race it became clear that was the intention but race control messed it up basically.

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Re: Best overtakes in Monaco!

Post by Fiki »

mds wrote:
Fiki wrote:The problem with your remark is that in that particular case, a communication from Race Control/Stewards would have been necessary, stating that rule 40.13 - forbidding overtaking - would not apply.
That is not true. Rule 40.13 is clear in that: the prohibition to overtake is subject to the race ending under SC conditions. If the race doesn't end under SC conditions, then 40.13 simply doesn't apply.

And there was no exception for lifting SC conditions in the last lap at that time and all the conditions were met for lifting the SC conditions. Basically the procedure happened as if it would have on any other lap, and on any other lap overtaking would also have been allowed. This being the last lap doesn't change the fact overtaking was effectively allowed. Only in case the SC conditions were not lifted, overtaking was not allowed. But they were.
I see what you mean, but I can't agree with your point that SC conditions had to apply. The rule, as it read before the "clarification", doesn't speak of mandatory SC conditions, but only of the deployment of the SC. Since the SC was deployed during the last lap, rule 40.13 applied and Schumacher (and any others who forgot about its existence) had to cross the finish line without overtaking.
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Re: Best overtakes in Monaco!

Post by mcdo »

Fiki wrote:
mds wrote:
Fiki wrote:The problem with your remark is that in that particular case, a communication from Race Control/Stewards would have been necessary, stating that rule 40.13 - forbidding overtaking - would not apply.
That is not true. Rule 40.13 is clear in that: the prohibition to overtake is subject to the race ending under SC conditions. If the race doesn't end under SC conditions, then 40.13 simply doesn't apply.

And there was no exception for lifting SC conditions in the last lap at that time and all the conditions were met for lifting the SC conditions. Basically the procedure happened as if it would have on any other lap, and on any other lap overtaking would also have been allowed. This being the last lap doesn't change the fact overtaking was effectively allowed. Only in case the SC conditions were not lifted, overtaking was not allowed. But they were.
I see what you mean, but I can't agree with your point that SC conditions had to apply. The rule, as it read before the "clarification", doesn't speak of mandatory SC conditions, but only of the deployment of the SC. Since the SC was deployed during the last lap, rule 40.13 applied and Schumacher (and any others who forgot about its existence) had to cross the finish line without overtaking.
It didn't say anything about "during the last lap". It said "if the race ends whilst the safety car is deployed". They're two different things
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Re: Best overtakes in Monaco!

Post by LKS1 »

It seems fairly obvious that the Monaco Schumi/Alonso overtaking incident was (and still is) controversial :lol: !

Quite apart from the many other points made in this thread about 'the rules' and how the majority (?) of teams thought the race was 'back on' - the 'clincher' to me is that the FIA changed the rules immediately thereafter, which tends to indicate that they weren't confident with the rule as it stood when the penalty was given....

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Re: Best overtakes in Monaco!

Post by mds »

Fiki wrote:
mds wrote:
Fiki wrote:The problem with your remark is that in that particular case, a communication from Race Control/Stewards would have been necessary, stating that rule 40.13 - forbidding overtaking - would not apply.
That is not true. Rule 40.13 is clear in that: the prohibition to overtake is subject to the race ending under SC conditions. If the race doesn't end under SC conditions, then 40.13 simply doesn't apply.

And there was no exception for lifting SC conditions in the last lap at that time and all the conditions were met for lifting the SC conditions. Basically the procedure happened as if it would have on any other lap, and on any other lap overtaking would also have been allowed. This being the last lap doesn't change the fact overtaking was effectively allowed. Only in case the SC conditions were not lifted, overtaking was not allowed. But they were.
I see what you mean, but I can't agree with your point that SC conditions had to apply. The rule, as it read before the "clarification", doesn't speak of mandatory SC conditions, but only of the deployment of the SC. Since the SC was deployed during the last lap, rule 40.13 applied and Schumacher (and any others who forgot about its existence) had to cross the finish line without overtaking.
The rule said "if the race ends while the SC is deployed".
I don't see how this means that "if the SC is deployed during the last lap then the race should end with it deployed".

If you lift the SC conditions during the last lap (= SC comes in and race is green-flagged) then it doesn't end under SC conditions... Hence 40.13 not applying.
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Re: Best overtakes in Monaco!

Post by mikeyg123 »

Either way it is completely obvious there are multiple interpretations of the rules as demonstrated by posters here and the fact they had to be altered post race. Schumacher was very unlucky to be penalized. The poorly written rules were not his fault.

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Re: Best overtakes in Monaco!

Post by Siao7 »

mikeyg123 wrote:Either way it is completely obvious there are multiple interpretations of the rules as demonstrated by posters here and the fact they had to be altered post race. Schumacher was very unlucky to be penalized. The poorly written rules were not his fault.
Exactly. That's what everyone said, that the rules could be interpreted in many ways, so the best solution would be to reverse the position of the two, with Alonso finishing in front of Schumacher. To actually penalize Schumacher seems unfair

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Re: Best overtakes in Monaco!

Post by mds »

Siao7 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:Either way it is completely obvious there are multiple interpretations of the rules as demonstrated by posters here and the fact they had to be altered post race. Schumacher was very unlucky to be penalized. The poorly written rules were not his fault.
Exactly. That's what everyone said, that the rules could be interpreted in many ways, so the best solution would be to reverse the position of the two, with Alonso finishing in front of Schumacher. To actually penalize Schumacher seems unfair
Aside from it being unfair to Schumacher (that much is certain), I don't really agree that there are many interpretations possible. I think the rule set was coherent as it was written back then: 40.13 only applied if the race ended under SC conditions, and there was nothing in the rules stating that the SC conditions couldn't be lifted in the last lap. They were lifted, so it didn't end under SC conditions, so 40.13 didn't apply, so they could overtake just as in any other lap where the SC conditions would have been lifted.
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Re: Best overtakes in Monaco!

Post by Siao7 »

mds wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:Either way it is completely obvious there are multiple interpretations of the rules as demonstrated by posters here and the fact they had to be altered post race. Schumacher was very unlucky to be penalized. The poorly written rules were not his fault.
Exactly. That's what everyone said, that the rules could be interpreted in many ways, so the best solution would be to reverse the position of the two, with Alonso finishing in front of Schumacher. To actually penalize Schumacher seems unfair
Aside from it being unfair to Schumacher (that much is certain), I don't really agree that there are many interpretations possible. I think the rule set was coherent as it was written back then: 40.13 only applied if the race ended under SC conditions, and there was nothing in the rules stating that the SC conditions couldn't be lifted in the last lap. They were lifted, so it didn't end under SC conditions, so 40.13 didn't apply, so they could overtake just as in any other lap where the SC conditions would have been lifted.
Yeah, I said it for argument's sake, as there are really two ways that people went about it

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Re: Best overtakes in Monaco!

Post by F1 MERCENARY »

Caserole of Nonsense wrote:
Toby. wrote:
Caserole of Nonsense wrote: Think someone has told ric he is the worlds best overtaker and he believed it. Going by the last race with vettel he aint. I dont mind someone having a go like above but the monaco one was dodgy at best and he didnt make either move stick with vettel in spain, and could have caused an accident if vettel hadnt jumped out the way. any crap driver (not saying that ric is crap by the way) can throw one down the inside and not make it stick. not much skill in that for me.
Perhaps if somebody did tell him that it was because of the many impressive moves he's made in races other than the single one you used as an example.
there were 3 examples that i used above and i know there is more. he has made some great overtakes but you're only as good as your last overtake :)
Yes indeed. There are certainly many more Ricciardo Dive Bombs. Too many to actually remember them all. He certainly makes some sensational and CLEAN moves most of the time, but mixed in there are a bunch of these desperation attempts and that has to count against him. The fact that he makes it through sometimes is not entirely on him, but on the drivers he is passing seeing it at the last moment and moving to avoid DNF's.

You can get 75% of the questions right on a test and pass, but that equates to a D grade. In order to actually "BE" excellent in F1 you must consistently perform at a B grade or better and that doesn't just entail the final results at the end of races.
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Re: Best overtakes in Monaco!

Post by Fiki »

mds wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:Either way it is completely obvious there are multiple interpretations of the rules as demonstrated by posters here and the fact they had to be altered post race. Schumacher was very unlucky to be penalized. The poorly written rules were not his fault.
Exactly. That's what everyone said, that the rules could be interpreted in many ways, so the best solution would be to reverse the position of the two, with Alonso finishing in front of Schumacher. To actually penalize Schumacher seems unfair
Aside from it being unfair to Schumacher (that much is certain), I don't really agree that there are many interpretations possible. I think the rule set was coherent as it was written back then: 40.13 only applied if the race ended under SC conditions, and there was nothing in the rules stating that the SC conditions couldn't be lifted in the last lap. They were lifted, so it didn't end under SC conditions, so 40.13 didn't apply, so they could overtake just as in any other lap where the SC conditions would have been lifted.
The really comic thing is that, supposing Schumacher had been passed for the lead by someone, Brawn would have argued overtaking was illegal, as it was on the final lap. :nod:
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backdoc
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Re: Best overtakes in Monaco!

Post by backdoc »

F1 MERCENARY wrote:
Caserole of Nonsense wrote:
Toby. wrote:
Caserole of Nonsense wrote: Think someone has told ric he is the worlds best overtaker and he believed it. Going by the last race with vettel he aint. I dont mind someone having a go like above but the monaco one was dodgy at best and he didnt make either move stick with vettel in spain, and could have caused an accident if vettel hadnt jumped out the way. any crap driver (not saying that ric is crap by the way) can throw one down the inside and not make it stick. not much skill in that for me.
Perhaps if somebody did tell him that it was because of the many impressive moves he's made in races other than the single one you used as an example.
there were 3 examples that i used above and i know there is more. he has made some great overtakes but you're only as good as your last overtake :)
Yes indeed. There are certainly many more Ricciardo Dive Bombs. Too many to actually remember them all. He certainly makes some sensational and CLEAN moves most of the time, but mixed in there are a bunch of these desperation attempts and that has to count against him. The fact that he makes it through sometimes is not entirely on him, but on the drivers he is passing seeing it at the last moment and moving to avoid DNF's.

You can get 75% of the questions right on a test and pass, but that equates to a D grade. In order to actually "BE" excellent in F1 you must consistently perform at a B grade or better and that doesn't just entail the final results at the end of races.
Ric is a racer and I'd say most people respect him for that. As for Spain, Vettel just came off as a whiner. Ric stayed within track limits.

I'd be quite interested to hear your views on Senna and the number of incidents he was involved in. Possibly just another driver with subpar overtaking skills?

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Re: Best overtakes in Monaco!

Post by Exediron »

backdoc wrote:I'd be quite interested to hear your views on Senna and the number of incidents he was involved in. Possibly just another driver with subpar overtaking skills?
A thug who made his overtakes work by fear and intimidation?

Luckily, Ricciardo is nothing like that. He overcooks his favorite divebomb move every now and then - but I don't believe he's ever tried it when he didn't believe there was room, instead of just relying on the other driver to get out of his way.
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Re: Best overtakes in Monaco!

Post by backdoc »

Exediron wrote:
backdoc wrote:I'd be quite interested to hear your views on Senna and the number of incidents he was involved in. Possibly just another driver with subpar overtaking skills?
A thug who made his overtakes work by fear and intimidation?

Luckily, Ricciardo is nothing like that. He overcooks his favorite divebomb move every now and then - but I don't believe he's ever tried it when he didn't believe there was room, instead of just relying on the other driver to get out of his way.
PS - Monaco race day marks my 10 year anniversary on this forum. Always reading, rarely posting! Monaco that year was on the 28th

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Re: Best overtakes in Monaco!

Post by mcdo »

Fiki wrote:
mds wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:Either way it is completely obvious there are multiple interpretations of the rules as demonstrated by posters here and the fact they had to be altered post race. Schumacher was very unlucky to be penalized. The poorly written rules were not his fault.
Exactly. That's what everyone said, that the rules could be interpreted in many ways, so the best solution would be to reverse the position of the two, with Alonso finishing in front of Schumacher. To actually penalize Schumacher seems unfair
Aside from it being unfair to Schumacher (that much is certain), I don't really agree that there are many interpretations possible. I think the rule set was coherent as it was written back then: 40.13 only applied if the race ended under SC conditions, and there was nothing in the rules stating that the SC conditions couldn't be lifted in the last lap. They were lifted, so it didn't end under SC conditions, so 40.13 didn't apply, so they could overtake just as in any other lap where the SC conditions would have been lifted.
The really comic thing is that, supposing Schumacher had been passed for the lead by someone, Brawn would have argued overtaking was illegal, as it was on the final lap. :nod:
The comic thing is that he would have won his argument even though he would have been wrong
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Re: Best overtakes in Monaco!

Post by mcdo »

F1 MERCENARY wrote:
Caserole of Nonsense wrote:
Toby. wrote:
Caserole of Nonsense wrote: Think someone has told ric he is the worlds best overtaker and he believed it. Going by the last race with vettel he aint. I dont mind someone having a go like above but the monaco one was dodgy at best and he didnt make either move stick with vettel in spain, and could have caused an accident if vettel hadnt jumped out the way. any crap driver (not saying that ric is crap by the way) can throw one down the inside and not make it stick. not much skill in that for me.
Perhaps if somebody did tell him that it was because of the many impressive moves he's made in races other than the single one you used as an example.
there were 3 examples that i used above and i know there is more. he has made some great overtakes but you're only as good as your last overtake :)
Yes indeed. There are certainly many more Ricciardo Dive Bombs. Too many to actually remember them all. He certainly makes some sensational and CLEAN moves most of the time, but mixed in there are a bunch of these desperation attempts and that has to count against him. The fact that he makes it through sometimes is not entirely on him, but on the drivers he is passing seeing it at the last moment and moving to avoid DNF's.

You can get 75% of the questions right on a test and pass, but that equates to a D grade. In order to actually "BE" excellent in F1 you must consistently perform at a B grade or better and that doesn't just entail the final results at the end of races.
That would have been an A for me in college. Still didn't get many of them :blush:
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Fiki
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Re: Best overtakes in Monaco!

Post by Fiki »

mcdo wrote:
Fiki wrote:
mds wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:Either way it is completely obvious there are multiple interpretations of the rules as demonstrated by posters here and the fact they had to be altered post race. Schumacher was very unlucky to be penalized. The poorly written rules were not his fault.
Exactly. That's what everyone said, that the rules could be interpreted in many ways, so the best solution would be to reverse the position of the two, with Alonso finishing in front of Schumacher. To actually penalize Schumacher seems unfair
Aside from it being unfair to Schumacher (that much is certain), I don't really agree that there are many interpretations possible. I think the rule set was coherent as it was written back then: 40.13 only applied if the race ended under SC conditions, and there was nothing in the rules stating that the SC conditions couldn't be lifted in the last lap. They were lifted, so it didn't end under SC conditions, so 40.13 didn't apply, so they could overtake just as in any other lap where the SC conditions would have been lifted.
The really comic thing is that, supposing Schumacher had been passed for the lead by someone, Brawn would have argued overtaking was illegal, as it was on the final lap. :nod:
The comic thing is that he would have won his argument even though he would have been wrong
Well, we agree at least 50% there. It could be worse! :)
Use every man after his desert, and who should scape whipping? Use them after your own honour and dignity.

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Re: Best overtakes in Monaco!

Post by stitch512 »

purchville wrote: Kimi on Webber
The '06 Monoco GP was the first I had ever watched. It was always delayed in Australia back then (started 1hr late at 11pm) and they reason why I watched it was because Michael's shenanigans in Quali made it onto the news and I wanted to see what it was all about.

Then that pass happened and it blew my mind. I was devastated when Webber's car gave up in a podium position as well.

I have watched every single GP since that race.

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