Best overtakes in Monaco!

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UnlikeUday
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Best overtakes in Monaco!

Post by UnlikeUday »

We all know how tight & twisty Monaco is but there've been some impressive overtakes throughout the years.

Which ones come to Your mind?

1 of them in the recent years is Sutil overtaking Alonso in 2013 at Grand Hotel Hairpin:



Another one which seems more class is Hulk overtaking Magnussen at Portier in 2014:



The best one yet! Schumacher making a double pass on Wurz in 1998. First at Grand Hotel Hairpin where he loses the place to Wurz again but at Portier Schumacher makes a daring move to reclaim that position:
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Re: Best overtakes in Monaco!

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Re: Best overtakes in Monaco!

Post by babararacucudada »

Ricciardo's overtake of Raikkonnen last year.


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Re: Best overtakes in Monaco!

Post by Black_Flag_11 »

babararacucudada wrote:Ricciardo's overtake of Raikkonnen last year.

Well that wasn't very nice.

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Re: Best overtakes in Monaco!

Post by Siao7 »

Black_Flag_11 wrote:
babararacucudada wrote:Ricciardo's overtake of Raikkonnen last year.

Well that wasn't very nice.
Yup

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Re: Best overtakes in Monaco!

Post by Zoue »

Black_Flag_11 wrote:
babararacucudada wrote:Ricciardo's overtake of Raikkonnen last year.

Well that wasn't very nice.
Yeay, I'm still of the opinion that that should have been punished. Wasn't an overtake so much as a ram. To me it was dangerous driving

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Re: Best overtakes in Monaco!

Post by babararacucudada »

Black_Flag_11 wrote:
babararacucudada wrote:Ricciardo's overtake of Raikkonnen last year.

Well that wasn't very nice.
But legal - apparently!

It does set a precedent that you can pit manoeuvre the car in front out of the way at Monaco, so we may see a lot more overtaking this year. Might have to beef up the left front wheel a bit if you are going to do a lot of it.

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Re: Best overtakes in Monaco!

Post by Balibari »

babararacucudada wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
babararacucudada wrote:Ricciardo's overtake of Raikkonnen last year.

Well that wasn't very nice.
But legal - apparently!

It does set a precedent that you can pit manoeuvre the car in front out of the way at Monaco, so we may see a lot more overtaking this year. Might have to beef up the left front wheel a bit if you are going to do a lot of it.
What is the rule at the moment? The Nico/Lewis thing last week got me thinking. Don't the regs state something like the following car must be 'substantially alongside'? But often we hear Brundle or someone mention that if any of the following car is alongside then he's earned the right to space. Given how difficult overtaking is, and all the stupid sacrifices the sport has made to aid it, it strikes me we should just say the following driver should be left space as long as any part of his car is alongside.
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Re: Best overtakes in Monaco!

Post by mcdo »

Schumacher in 2006, Alonso in 2010 and Verstappen in 2015 come to mind.

My favourite ever is one that was ridiculously deemed illegal
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Re: Best overtakes in Monaco!

Post by mikeyg123 »

Balibari wrote:
babararacucudada wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
babararacucudada wrote:Ricciardo's overtake of Raikkonnen last year.

Well that wasn't very nice.
But legal - apparently!

It does set a precedent that you can pit manoeuvre the car in front out of the way at Monaco, so we may see a lot more overtaking this year. Might have to beef up the left front wheel a bit if you are going to do a lot of it.
What is the rule at the moment? The Nico/Lewis thing last week got me thinking. Don't the regs state something like the following car must be 'substantially alongside'? But often we hear Brundle or someone mention that if any of the following car is alongside then he's earned the right to space. Given how difficult overtaking is, and all the stupid sacrifices the sport has made to aid it, it strikes me we should just say the following driver should be left space as long as any part of his car is alongside.
The rules state that a front wing is considered enough. What the rules don't say is how much space should be given.

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Re: Best overtakes in Monaco!

Post by Caserole of Nonsense »

babararacucudada wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
babararacucudada wrote:Ricciardo's overtake of Raikkonnen last year.

Well that wasn't very nice.
But legal - apparently!

It does set a precedent that you can pit manoeuvre the car in front out of the way at Monaco, so we may see a lot more overtaking this year. Might have to beef up the left front wheel a bit if you are going to do a lot of it.
Think someone has told ric he is the worlds best overtaker and he believed it. Going by the last race with vettel he aint. I dont mind someone having a go like above but the monaco one was dodgy at best and he didnt make either move stick with vettel in spain, and could have caused an accident if vettel hadnt jumped out the way. any crap driver (not saying that ric is crap by the way) can throw one down the inside and not make it stick. not much skill in that for me.

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Re: Best overtakes in Monaco!

Post by nixxxon »

Bianchi on Kobayashi in 2014. (0:30)



Sergio Perez show in 2013.




mcdo wrote:Schumacher in 2006, Alonso in 2010 and Verstappen in 2015 come to mind.

My favourite ever is one that was ridiculously deemed illegal
Well, not sure if it was correctly deemed illegal or not, but I dont think its a good overtake because Alonso was told that it was not allowed to overtake so he didnt bother closing the door to MS

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Re: Best overtakes in Monaco!

Post by mcdo »

nixxxon wrote:
mcdo wrote:Schumacher in 2006, Alonso in 2010 and Verstappen in 2015 come to mind.

My favourite ever is one that was ridiculously deemed illegal
Well, not sure if it was correctly deemed illegal or not, but I dont think its a good overtake because Alonso was told that it was not allowed to overtake so he didnt bother closing the door to MS
It was brilliant. The very essence of an opportunistic move. Alonso wobbled and Schumacher pounced. If Alonso was so full sure he hadn't just been duped he wouldn't have tried to fight back

As an Alonso fan I was happy to see him get the place back. As a Formula 1 fan I wasn't
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Re: Best overtakes in Monaco!

Post by babararacucudada »

Balibari wrote:
babararacucudada wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
babararacucudada wrote:Ricciardo's overtake of Raikkonnen last year.

Well that wasn't very nice.
But legal - apparently!

It does set a precedent that you can pit manoeuvre the car in front out of the way at Monaco, so we may see a lot more overtaking this year. Might have to beef up the left front wheel a bit if you are going to do a lot of it.
What is the rule at the moment? The Nico/Lewis thing last week got me thinking. Don't the regs state something like the following car must be 'substantially alongside'? But often we hear Brundle or someone mention that if any of the following car is alongside then he's earned the right to space. Given how difficult overtaking is, and all the stupid sacrifices the sport has made to aid it, it strikes me we should just say the following driver should be left space as long as any part of his car is alongside.
How is the lead driver supposed to judge that accurately and respond immediately while driving flat out at Monaco?

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Re: Best overtakes in Monaco!

Post by j man »

UnlikeUday wrote:The best one yet! Schumacher making a double pass on Wurz in 1998. First at Grand Hotel Hairpin where he loses the place to Wurz again but at Portier Schumacher makes a daring move to reclaim that position:
From memory didn't this one damage Schumacher's car and put him out of the race? I always had it down as one of the desperate lunges that end in tears that we see at the hairpin every year.

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Re: Best overtakes in Monaco!

Post by j man »


Heidfeld on Alonso in 2005. No wheelbanging or forcing the other car out of the way. Just a perfectly judged outbraking manoeuvre that caught Alonso (of all people) napping.

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Re: Best overtakes in Monaco!

Post by nixxxon »

mcdo wrote:It was brilliant. The very essence of an opportunistic move. Alonso wobbled and Schumacher pounced. If Alonso was so full sure he hadn't just been duped he wouldn't have tried to fight back

As an Alonso fan I was happy to see him get the place back. As a Formula 1 fan I wasn't
You think he tried to fight back? Not sure...
He wouldn't have left the door open in the first place.

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Re: Best overtakes in Monaco!

Post by F1 MERCENARY »

nixxxon wrote:Bianchi on Kobayashi in 2014. (0:30)



Sergio Perez show in 2013.




mcdo wrote:Schumacher in 2006, Alonso in 2010 and Verstappen in 2015 come to mind.

My favourite ever is one that was ridiculously deemed illegal
Well, not sure if it was correctly deemed illegal or not, but I dont think its a good overtake because Alonso was told that it was not allowed to overtake so he didnt bother closing the door to MS
Blanca's move was just as poorly made as Ricciardo's on Raikkonen. Same difference and In Ricciardo's case, this is just another example of his terrible judgment when it comes to attempting passes from too far back. He was fortunate his momentum and the direction of the track made it easy for Raikkonen's car to be affected by his nudge because otherwise as Raikkonen turned it it would've put him into the wall and wrecked his car.

He did the same thing in Spain last week and it was once again further affirmation that his is nowhere near a "Late Braking God". FAR From it.
More like a terrible decision making far too late in the braking zone guy. He's gotten this move wrong many more time than he's gotten it correct. Just a dumb move he needs to learn to not attempt in the way he's been doing. Interestingly, Lewis has been crucified for pulling a much smarter attempt at a lunge down the inside, still correcting to ensure he avoided contact. Go figure.
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Re: Best overtakes in Monaco!

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Caserole of Nonsense wrote: Think someone has told ric he is the worlds best overtaker and he believed it. Going by the last race with vettel he aint. I dont mind someone having a go like above but the monaco one was dodgy at best and he didnt make either move stick with vettel in spain, and could have caused an accident if vettel hadnt jumped out the way. any crap driver (not saying that ric is crap by the way) can throw one down the inside and not make it stick. not much skill in that for me.
Perhaps if somebody did tell him that it was because of the many impressive moves he's made in races other than the single one you used as an example.
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Re: Best overtakes in Monaco!

Post by Fiki »

mcdo wrote:Schumacher in 2006, Alonso in 2010 and Verstappen in 2015 come to mind.

My favourite ever is one that was ridiculously deemed illegal
Why ridiculous? I couldn't believe my ears when I found out it was his race engineer who fed him such nonsense.
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Re: Best overtakes in Monaco!

Post by Siao7 »

Fiki wrote:
mcdo wrote:Schumacher in 2006, Alonso in 2010 and Verstappen in 2015 come to mind.

My favourite ever is one that was ridiculously deemed illegal
Why ridiculous? I couldn't believe my ears when I found out it was his race engineer who fed him such nonsense.
You mean the one that half the teams told their drivers to race and the other half did not?

It was confusing and they changed the rule after the race. So they should have deemed the overtaking legal.

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Re: Best overtakes in Monaco!

Post by Fiki »

Siao7 wrote:
Fiki wrote:
mcdo wrote:Schumacher in 2006, Alonso in 2010 and Verstappen in 2015 come to mind.

My favourite ever is one that was ridiculously deemed illegal
Why ridiculous? I couldn't believe my ears when I found out it was his race engineer who fed him such nonsense.
You mean the one that half the teams told their drivers to race and the other half did not?

It was confusing and they changed the rule after the race. So they should have deemed the overtaking legal.
The stewards can't deem something legal if it is against the rules.
I did think it was amusing that Brawn/Schumacher were still trying to use the confusion ploy, though.
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Re: Best overtakes in Monaco!

Post by Siao7 »

Fiki wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Fiki wrote:
mcdo wrote:Schumacher in 2006, Alonso in 2010 and Verstappen in 2015 come to mind.

My favourite ever is one that was ridiculously deemed illegal
Why ridiculous? I couldn't believe my ears when I found out it was his race engineer who fed him such nonsense.
You mean the one that half the teams told their drivers to race and the other half did not?

It was confusing and they changed the rule after the race. So they should have deemed the overtaking legal.
The stewards can't deem something legal if it is against the rules.
I did think it was amusing that Brawn/Schumacher were still trying to use the confusion ploy, though.
The rule that they clarified AFTER the race? That one?

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Re: Best overtakes in Monaco!

Post by Jenson's Understeer »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Balibari wrote:
babararacucudada wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
babararacucudada wrote:Ricciardo's overtake of Raikkonnen last year.

Well that wasn't very nice.
But legal - apparently!

It does set a precedent that you can pit manoeuvre the car in front out of the way at Monaco, so we may see a lot more overtaking this year. Might have to beef up the left front wheel a bit if you are going to do a lot of it.
What is the rule at the moment? The Nico/Lewis thing last week got me thinking. Don't the regs state something like the following car must be 'substantially alongside'? But often we hear Brundle or someone mention that if any of the following car is alongside then he's earned the right to space. Given how difficult overtaking is, and all the stupid sacrifices the sport has made to aid it, it strikes me we should just say the following driver should be left space as long as any part of his car is alongside.
The rules state that a front wing is considered enough. What the rules don't say is how much space should be given.
The obvious assumption would be enough space to avoid the driver deemed alongside either a) being forced off the track to avoid an accident or b) coming into contact with the driver defending the position.

Also, that particular rule only applies when defending a position on a straight and before the braking zone. So I don't think it would apply in the case of Raikkonen vs. Ricciardo since that happened in the braking area.
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Re: Best overtakes in Monaco!

Post by Fiki »

Siao7 wrote:
Fiki wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Fiki wrote:
mcdo wrote:Schumacher in 2006, Alonso in 2010 and Verstappen in 2015 come to mind.

My favourite ever is one that was ridiculously deemed illegal
Why ridiculous? I couldn't believe my ears when I found out it was his race engineer who fed him such nonsense.
You mean the one that half the teams told their drivers to race and the other half did not?

It was confusing and they changed the rule after the race. So they should have deemed the overtaking legal.
The stewards can't deem something legal if it is against the rules.
I did think it was amusing that Brawn/Schumacher were still trying to use the confusion ploy, though.
The rule that they clarified AFTER the race? That one?
Yes, that one. The one even Ferrari understood, and the one Mercedes understood enough not to appeal against. ;)
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Re: Best overtakes in Monaco!

Post by Siao7 »

Fiki wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Fiki wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Fiki wrote: Why ridiculous? I couldn't believe my ears when I found out it was his race engineer who fed him such nonsense.
You mean the one that half the teams told their drivers to race and the other half did not?

It was confusing and they changed the rule after the race. So they should have deemed the overtaking legal.
The stewards can't deem something legal if it is against the rules.
I did think it was amusing that Brawn/Schumacher were still trying to use the confusion ploy, though.
The rule that they clarified AFTER the race? That one?
Yes, that one. The one even Ferrari understood, and the one Mercedes understood enough not to appeal against. ;)
They withdrew the appeal since the FIA agreed to review the rule. For the greater interest of the sport. And again, almost half the teams got it wrong and let their drivers race. But hey ho, whatever makes you happy

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Re: Best overtakes in Monaco!

Post by mcdo »

Fiki wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Fiki wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Fiki wrote:Why ridiculous? I couldn't believe my ears when I found out it was his race engineer who fed him such nonsense.
You mean the one that half the teams told their drivers to race and the other half did not?

It was confusing and they changed the rule after the race. So they should have deemed the overtaking legal.
The stewards can't deem something legal if it is against the rules.
I did think it was amusing that Brawn/Schumacher were still trying to use the confusion ploy, though.
The rule that they clarified AFTER the race? That one?
Yes, that one. The one even Ferrari understood, and the one Mercedes understood enough not to appeal against. ;)
I recall Ross Brawn parading around armed with photos of green lights, the same green lights that up until that moment in time meant "race on"

It was one of those times that F1 shot itself in the foot. Like Grosjean getting the penalty for overtaking Massa on the kerb in Hungary 2013. That's the racing we want to see, not DRS-assisted Scalextric
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Re: Best overtakes in Monaco!

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Siao7 wrote: They withdrew the appeal since the FIA agreed to review the rule. For the greater interest of the sport. And again, almost half the teams got it wrong and let their drivers race. But hey ho, whatever makes you happy
Could you help me find which other teams got the rule as "wrong" as Mercedes?

I know Alonso checked what to do with his team, but I can't see that as an indication of an unclear rule, as the team itself was crystal clear about it.
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Re: Best overtakes in Monaco!

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mcdo wrote:I recall Ross Brawn parading around armed with photos of green lights, the same green lights that up until that moment in time meant "race on"
On any other lap, yes. Not on the final lap under SC. But, as I said, it was an interesting ploy to score points. Money talks.
mcdo wrote:It was one of those times that F1 shot itself in the foot. Like Grosjean getting the penalty for overtaking Massa on the kerb in Hungary 2013. That's the racing we want to see, not DRS-assisted Scalextric
The two cases are too different to be compared. I couldn't agree more that Grosjean was incorrectly punished, and even Massa supported that. Of course, he could have acted in accordance with the rules himself, rather than run Grosjean off the track.

So, while I agree that in the Grosjean/Massa case, the stewards got it wrong, in the case of Schumacher/Alonso, they didn't. I would find it interesting to know why the rules were changed for cosmetic reasons, so that the cars could finish the lap without the SC in front of them.
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Re: Best overtakes in Monaco!

Post by Siao7 »

Fiki wrote:
Siao7 wrote: They withdrew the appeal since the FIA agreed to review the rule. For the greater interest of the sport. And again, almost half the teams got it wrong and let their drivers race. But hey ho, whatever makes you happy
Could you help me find which other teams got the rule as "wrong" as Mercedes?

I know Alonso checked what to do with his team, but I can't see that as an indication of an unclear rule, as the team itself was crystal clear about it.
They were not mentioned in any article I can find. Andy Benson in his article doesn't mention any names, but he does say that out of the 6 teams in the top 10 places, 3 told them to race, 2 not to race and one to race but not overtake.

Spin it all you want Fiki, the rule was not clear cut for half these teams. If it was clear to you then good for you, but last time I checked Fiki was not a team principal. If the FIA themselves admitted that the rule was confusing, then seriously, what is your problem? Again, half of these 6 teams were confused, not only Mercedes.

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Re: Best overtakes in Monaco!

Post by rivf1 »

F1 MERCENARY wrote:
nixxxon wrote:Bianchi on Kobayashi in 2014. (0:30)



Sergio Perez show in 2013.




mcdo wrote:Schumacher in 2006, Alonso in 2010 and Verstappen in 2015 come to mind.

My favourite ever is one that was ridiculously deemed illegal
Well, not sure if it was correctly deemed illegal or not, but I dont think its a good overtake because Alonso was told that it was not allowed to overtake so he didnt bother closing the door to MS
Blanca's move was just as poorly made as Ricciardo's on Raikkonen. Same difference and In Ricciardo's case, this is just another example of his terrible judgment when it comes to attempting passes from too far back. He was fortunate his momentum and the direction of the track made it easy for Raikkonen's car to be affected by his nudge because otherwise as Raikkonen turned it it would've put him into the wall and wrecked his car.

He did the same thing in Spain last week and it was once again further affirmation that his is nowhere near a "Late Braking God". FAR From it.
More like a terrible decision making far too late in the braking zone guy. He's gotten this move wrong many more time than he's gotten it correct. Just a dumb move he needs to learn to not attempt in the way he's been doing. Interestingly, Lewis has been crucified for pulling a much smarter attempt at a lunge down the inside, still correcting to ensure he avoided contact. Go figure.
None of that is any different from what we have seen lulu do many times before.

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Re: Best overtakes in Monaco!

Post by nixxxon »

Blanca? Lulu? Where do those names come from?

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Re: Best overtakes in Monaco!

Post by mcdo »

Fiki wrote:
mcdo wrote:I recall Ross Brawn parading around armed with photos of green lights, the same green lights that up until that moment in time meant "race on"
On any other lap, yes. Not on the final lap under SC. But, as I said, it was an interesting ploy to score points. Money talks.
They only confirmed this after the race had concluded. The regulation was so poorly written different teams had a different interpretation of it
Fiki wrote:
mcdo wrote:It was one of those times that F1 shot itself in the foot. Like Grosjean getting the penalty for overtaking Massa on the kerb in Hungary 2013. That's the racing we want to see, not DRS-assisted Scalextric
The two cases are too different to be compared. I couldn't agree more that Grosjean was incorrectly punished, and even Massa supported that. Of course, he could have acted in accordance with the rules himself, rather than run Grosjean off the track.

So, while I agree that in the Grosjean/Massa case, the stewards got it wrong, in the case of Schumacher/Alonso, they didn't. I would find it interesting to know why the rules were changed for cosmetic reasons, so that the cars could finish the lap without the SC in front of them.
Obviously the manner of the overtake was totally different. But the stewards making a balls of it was quite the same
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Re: Best overtakes in Monaco!

Post by F1 MERCENARY »

rivf1 wrote:
F1 MERCENARY wrote:
nixxxon wrote:Bianchi on Kobayashi in 2014. (0:30)



Sergio Perez show in 2013.




mcdo wrote:Schumacher in 2006, Alonso in 2010 and Verstappen in 2015 come to mind.

My favourite ever is one that was ridiculously deemed illegal
Well, not sure if it was correctly deemed illegal or not, but I dont think its a good overtake because Alonso was told that it was not allowed to overtake so he didnt bother closing the door to MS
Blanca's move was just as poorly made as Ricciardo's on Raikkonen. Same difference and In Ricciardo's case, this is just another example of his terrible judgment when it comes to attempting passes from too far back. He was fortunate his momentum and the direction of the track made it easy for Raikkonen's car to be affected by his nudge because otherwise as Raikkonen turned it it would've put him into the wall and wrecked his car.

He did the same thing in Spain last week and it was once again further affirmation that his is nowhere near a "Late Braking God". FAR From it.
More like a terrible decision making far too late in the braking zone guy. He's gotten this move wrong many more time than he's gotten it correct. Just a dumb move he needs to learn to not attempt in the way he's been doing. Interestingly, Lewis has been crucified for pulling a much smarter attempt at a lunge down the inside, still correcting to ensure he avoided contact. Go figure.
None of that is any different from what we have seen lulu do many times before.
So now Hamilton haters are making up names for him. Interesting.

And while all drivers sometimes get it wrong, the difference between the elites is that for them it's the exception. For Ricciardo, as much as I genuinely like the guy, this is simply too regular an occurrence and he needs to learn that if it's too optimistic feeling and looking, it probably is and he should get closer before attempting passes that rely on the other guy making way at the last second to avoid crashes. Honestly anyone can do that. He's shown he has excellent ability but at times grows desperate and goes for it in the hopes he squeaks by rather than bide his time to better calculate passing attempts.
nixxxon wrote:Blanca? Lulu? Where do those names come from?
Darned Autocorrect… I meant Bianchi.
HAMILTON :: VERSTAPPEN :: LECLERC :: BOTTAS :: VETTEL :: SAINZ :: NORRIS
KVYAT :: RAIKKONEN :: RUSSEL :: ALBON :: RICCIARDO :: HULKENBURG :: PEREZ
STROLL :: MAGNUSSEN :: GROSJEAN :: GASLY :: GIOVANAZZI :: KUBICA

Fiki
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Location: Belgium

Re: Best overtakes in Monaco!

Post by Fiki »

Siao7 wrote:
Fiki wrote:
Siao7 wrote: They withdrew the appeal since the FIA agreed to review the rule. For the greater interest of the sport. And again, almost half the teams got it wrong and let their drivers race. But hey ho, whatever makes you happy
Could you help me find which other teams got the rule as "wrong" as Mercedes?

I know Alonso checked what to do with his team, but I can't see that as an indication of an unclear rule, as the team itself was crystal clear about it.
They were not mentioned in any article I can find. Andy Benson in his article doesn't mention any names, but he does say that out of the 6 teams in the top 10 places, 3 told them to race, 2 not to race and one to race but not overtake.

Spin it all you want Fiki, the rule was not clear cut for half these teams. If it was clear to you then good for you, but last time I checked Fiki was not a team principal. If the FIA themselves admitted that the rule was confusing, then seriously, what is your problem? Again, half of these 6 teams were confused, not only Mercedes.
Do you have a link to a message that the FIA agreed the rule was poorly written? It wasn't, or Mercedes would have appealed. No spin is needed, at least not on the sides of the FIA or myself.
The Rules wrote:"if the race ends whilst the safety car is deployed it will enter the pitlane at the end of the last lap and the cars will take the chequered flag as normal without overtaking."
Which part of "without overtaking" Brawn wanted to spin, I have no idea.

Source of the quote: Autosport.com
Use every man after his desert, and who should scape whipping? Use them after your own honour and dignity.

Maria de Villota - Jules Bianchi

Fiki
Posts: 8131
Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2003 11:06 am
Location: Belgium

Re: Best overtakes in Monaco!

Post by Fiki »

mcdo wrote:
Fiki wrote:
mcdo wrote:I recall Ross Brawn parading around armed with photos of green lights, the same green lights that up until that moment in time meant "race on"
On any other lap, yes. Not on the final lap under SC. But, as I said, it was an interesting ploy to score points. Money talks.
They only confirmed this after the race had concluded. The regulation was so poorly written different teams had a different interpretation of it
Fiki wrote:
mcdo wrote:It was one of those times that F1 shot itself in the foot. Like Grosjean getting the penalty for overtaking Massa on the kerb in Hungary 2013. That's the racing we want to see, not DRS-assisted Scalextric
The two cases are too different to be compared. I couldn't agree more that Grosjean was incorrectly punished, and even Massa supported that. Of course, he could have acted in accordance with the rules himself, rather than run Grosjean off the track.

So, while I agree that in the Grosjean/Massa case, the stewards got it wrong, in the case of Schumacher/Alonso, they didn't. I would find it interesting to know why the rules were changed for cosmetic reasons, so that the cars could finish the lap without the SC in front of them.
Obviously the manner of the overtake was totally different. But the stewards making a balls of it was quite the same
No, in one case, they got it wrong. In the other, they got it spot-on.

Do you have a link to which teams told their drivers to race? And if they did, was this after seeing Schumacher break them, or before, as Brawn did?
Use every man after his desert, and who should scape whipping? Use them after your own honour and dignity.

Maria de Villota - Jules Bianchi

mikeyg123
Posts: 18469
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:13 pm

Re: Best overtakes in Monaco!

Post by mikeyg123 »

Fiki wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Fiki wrote:
Siao7 wrote: They withdrew the appeal since the FIA agreed to review the rule. For the greater interest of the sport. And again, almost half the teams got it wrong and let their drivers race. But hey ho, whatever makes you happy
Could you help me find which other teams got the rule as "wrong" as Mercedes?

I know Alonso checked what to do with his team, but I can't see that as an indication of an unclear rule, as the team itself was crystal clear about it.
They were not mentioned in any article I can find. Andy Benson in his article doesn't mention any names, but he does say that out of the 6 teams in the top 10 places, 3 told them to race, 2 not to race and one to race but not overtake.

Spin it all you want Fiki, the rule was not clear cut for half these teams. If it was clear to you then good for you, but last time I checked Fiki was not a team principal. If the FIA themselves admitted that the rule was confusing, then seriously, what is your problem? Again, half of these 6 teams were confused, not only Mercedes.
Do you have a link to a message that the FIA agreed the rule was poorly written? It wasn't, or Mercedes would have appealed. No spin is needed, at least not on the sides of the FIA or myself.
The Rules wrote:"if the race ends whilst the safety car is deployed it will enter the pitlane at the end of the last lap and the cars will take the chequered flag as normal without overtaking."
Which part of "without overtaking" Brawn wanted to spin, I have no idea.

Source of the quote: Autosport.com
But the safety car wasn't still deployed hence the green flag. How did the teams know this was a safety car finish when green flags were shown and the safety car was not on track.

Siao7
Posts: 8966
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Re: Best overtakes in Monaco!

Post by Siao7 »

Fiki wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Fiki wrote:
Siao7 wrote: They withdrew the appeal since the FIA agreed to review the rule. For the greater interest of the sport. And again, almost half the teams got it wrong and let their drivers race. But hey ho, whatever makes you happy
Could you help me find which other teams got the rule as "wrong" as Mercedes?

I know Alonso checked what to do with his team, but I can't see that as an indication of an unclear rule, as the team itself was crystal clear about it.
They were not mentioned in any article I can find. Andy Benson in his article doesn't mention any names, but he does say that out of the 6 teams in the top 10 places, 3 told them to race, 2 not to race and one to race but not overtake.

Spin it all you want Fiki, the rule was not clear cut for half these teams. If it was clear to you then good for you, but last time I checked Fiki was not a team principal. If the FIA themselves admitted that the rule was confusing, then seriously, what is your problem? Again, half of these 6 teams were confused, not only Mercedes.
Do you have a link to a message that the FIA agreed the rule was poorly written? It wasn't, or Mercedes would have appealed. No spin is needed, at least not on the sides of the FIA or myself.
The Rules wrote:"if the race ends whilst the safety car is deployed it will enter the pitlane at the end of the last lap and the cars will take the chequered flag as normal without overtaking."
Which part of "without overtaking" Brawn wanted to spin, I have no idea.

Source of the quote: Autosport.com
Naaah, the FIA clarified a rule because it was clearly written...

:uhoh:

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mcdo
Posts: 10289
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Location: Ireland

Re: Best overtakes in Monaco!

Post by mcdo »

Fiki wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Fiki wrote:
Siao7 wrote: They withdrew the appeal since the FIA agreed to review the rule. For the greater interest of the sport. And again, almost half the teams got it wrong and let their drivers race. But hey ho, whatever makes you happy
Could you help me find which other teams got the rule as "wrong" as Mercedes?

I know Alonso checked what to do with his team, but I can't see that as an indication of an unclear rule, as the team itself was crystal clear about it.
They were not mentioned in any article I can find. Andy Benson in his article doesn't mention any names, but he does say that out of the 6 teams in the top 10 places, 3 told them to race, 2 not to race and one to race but not overtake.

Spin it all you want Fiki, the rule was not clear cut for half these teams. If it was clear to you then good for you, but last time I checked Fiki was not a team principal. If the FIA themselves admitted that the rule was confusing, then seriously, what is your problem? Again, half of these 6 teams were confused, not only Mercedes.
Do you have a link to a message that the FIA agreed the rule was poorly written? It wasn't, or Mercedes would have appealed. No spin is needed, at least not on the sides of the FIA or myself.
The Rules wrote:"if the race ends whilst the safety car is deployed it will enter the pitlane at the end of the last lap and the cars will take the chequered flag as normal without overtaking."
Which part of "without overtaking" Brawn wanted to spin, I have no idea.

Source of the quote: Autosport.com
The regulations had also stated
The Rules wrote:"As the safety car is approaching the pit entry the yellow flags and SC boards will be withdrawn and replaced by waved green flags with green lights at the Line. These will be displayed until the last car crosses the Line."
Clearly this did not take place. The race went green before the line and, crucially, after the Safety Car line where it's legal to overtake. Race back on

Additionally, the cause of the Safety Car had been removed and the teams were informed that the Safety Car was coming back in. That meant that the Safety Car was no longer deployed, which means your rule above didn't apply. The rule you have quoted didn't state that if the Safety Car is out at the beginning of the last lap, the race automatically ends under Safety Car conditions (and the Safety Car would return to the pits) - if that was the FIA's intention then they should have written the rule that way

Merc appealing the penalty was futile. It was a drive through penalty (converted to a time penalty because it happened in the last 5 laps). Drive through penalties cannot be rescinded. Getting the FIA to clear up their rule was the only positive action Merc could hope to achieve (which they achieved without appealing)
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Fiki
Posts: 8131
Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2003 11:06 am
Location: Belgium

Re: Best overtakes in Monaco!

Post by Fiki »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Fiki wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Fiki wrote:
Siao7 wrote: They withdrew the appeal since the FIA agreed to review the rule. For the greater interest of the sport. And again, almost half the teams got it wrong and let their drivers race. But hey ho, whatever makes you happy
Could you help me find which other teams got the rule as "wrong" as Mercedes?

I know Alonso checked what to do with his team, but I can't see that as an indication of an unclear rule, as the team itself was crystal clear about it.
They were not mentioned in any article I can find. Andy Benson in his article doesn't mention any names, but he does say that out of the 6 teams in the top 10 places, 3 told them to race, 2 not to race and one to race but not overtake.

Spin it all you want Fiki, the rule was not clear cut for half these teams. If it was clear to you then good for you, but last time I checked Fiki was not a team principal. If the FIA themselves admitted that the rule was confusing, then seriously, what is your problem? Again, half of these 6 teams were confused, not only Mercedes.
Do you have a link to a message that the FIA agreed the rule was poorly written? It wasn't, or Mercedes would have appealed. No spin is needed, at least not on the sides of the FIA or myself.
The Rules wrote:"if the race ends whilst the safety car is deployed it will enter the pitlane at the end of the last lap and the cars will take the chequered flag as normal without overtaking."
Which part of "without overtaking" Brawn wanted to spin, I have no idea.

Source of the quote: Autosport.com
But the safety car wasn't still deployed hence the green flag. How did the teams know this was a safety car finish when green flags were shown and the safety car was not on track.
Quite simply, mikey, because they knew it was the final lap, and they had read the rule that said no overtaking.
Use every man after his desert, and who should scape whipping? Use them after your own honour and dignity.

Maria de Villota - Jules Bianchi

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