"Nico can be replaced by Alonso" - Is Wolff Against Rosberg?

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Lt. Drebin
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Re: "Nico can be replaced by Alonso" - Is Wolff Against Rosb

Post by Lt. Drebin »

Ennis wrote:
Lt. Drebin wrote:There are risks of HAM-ALO pairing.

1. If Hamilton does not tighten his screws, and remains half lost with his performance, or has a mixed performance, he would make his WDC chances considerably smaller, and bring Mercedes into trouble.

2. Alonso is already coming to age where a drop in performance will occur by nature. There is nothing you can do about it. Once when it hits Alonso, he will be a lost case.

3. One more heavy crash, and Alonso is out of the sport on medical basis. His recent crashes are making him vulnerable and a risky driver for the team.

4. They both have two biggest ego's in F1. Hamilton has been emotionally rattled at times with his childhood friend Rosberg ("we are no buddies anymore" - "we are buddies, no problem"), how much more will it be with Alonso? On his part, Alonso is not easy to deal with for the opposite reason; he is cold and calculated, and therefore dangerous for the team and the driver from the other corner of the pit. The pairing looks increasingly hard to deal with, specially at the end of the year when one will come on top and the other will be a looser.
1. From Merc's perspective they'll still have WDC
2. His performance will drop but it doesn't fall off a cliff, he's still a top, top driver
3. Says who? His recent crashes were more due to luck than anything else, he's no more of less of a risk than any other driver. He doesn't have an ongoing medical condition.
4. Hamilton has spent his entire life being faster than Rosberg, when that doesn't happen he'll hate it. It can be a respect thing - I can handle losing to the best but I can't handle losing to a 2nd tier driver. I don't think it would be harmonious, 2 drivers with a WDC chance in a WCC car will always have tension - but there's nothing to suggest it'll be worse than Hamilton & Rosberg...
1. Mercedes is in position to choose both drivers to fight for WDC, they do not need a driver that can't keep it together for more than a half year, like Hamilton these days.
2. In the time where 0,1 seconds makes a difference between pole position and second or third place, it's crucial to have the driver that is capable of achieving it.
3. Alonso indeed had a couple of hard crashes, for which he had to sit out a few races. It is inevitable that they leave a mark, even if it is not publicly revealed. Don't you think that another hard crash might lead to a condition where he won't be allowed to race? And perhaps this may influence him in taking less risks in the race. So, there is a double risk over there.
4. It might not be worse than Ham&Ros, but isn't their goal to have more harmonious pairing than now?
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Re: "Nico can be replaced by Alonso" - Is Wolff Against Rosb

Post by pokerman »

Black_Flag_11 wrote:Would Alonso join Merc for free if Nico was in the other seat on 15 million? Possibly IMO.

I doubt he would join for free if Hamilton was in the other seat on 30 million though, just because of his sheer competitiveness I don't think he would like to be getting nothing while his main rival if getting paid loads.

Also, that would put him in a really weak position going forward if he wanted to stay on for more than a year, he would be negotiating up from nothing and there's only so far you can get from where you start in negotiations.
It seems that Rosberg wants 30 million as well, for that kind of money you can indeed get Alonso and a better driver to boot.
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Re: "Nico can be replaced by Alonso" - Is Wolff Against Rosb

Post by pokerman »

Lt. Drebin wrote:
Ennis wrote:
Lt. Drebin wrote:There are risks of HAM-ALO pairing.

1. If Hamilton does not tighten his screws, and remains half lost with his performance, or has a mixed performance, he would make his WDC chances considerably smaller, and bring Mercedes into trouble.

2. Alonso is already coming to age where a drop in performance will occur by nature. There is nothing you can do about it. Once when it hits Alonso, he will be a lost case.

3. One more heavy crash, and Alonso is out of the sport on medical basis. His recent crashes are making him vulnerable and a risky driver for the team.

4. They both have two biggest ego's in F1. Hamilton has been emotionally rattled at times with his childhood friend Rosberg ("we are no buddies anymore" - "we are buddies, no problem"), how much more will it be with Alonso? On his part, Alonso is not easy to deal with for the opposite reason; he is cold and calculated, and therefore dangerous for the team and the driver from the other corner of the pit. The pairing looks increasingly hard to deal with, specially at the end of the year when one will come on top and the other will be a looser.
1. From Merc's perspective they'll still have WDC
2. His performance will drop but it doesn't fall off a cliff, he's still a top, top driver
3. Says who? His recent crashes were more due to luck than anything else, he's no more of less of a risk than any other driver. He doesn't have an ongoing medical condition.
4. Hamilton has spent his entire life being faster than Rosberg, when that doesn't happen he'll hate it. It can be a respect thing - I can handle losing to the best but I can't handle losing to a 2nd tier driver. I don't think it would be harmonious, 2 drivers with a WDC chance in a WCC car will always have tension - but there's nothing to suggest it'll be worse than Hamilton & Rosberg...
1. Mercedes is in position to choose both drivers to fight for WDC, they do not need a driver that can't keep it together for more than a half year, like Hamilton these days.
2. In the time where 0,1 seconds makes a difference between pole position and second or third place, it's crucial to have the driver that is capable of achieving it.
3. Alonso indeed had a couple of hard crashes, for which he had to sit out a few races. It is inevitable that they leave a mark, even if it is not publicly revealed. Don't you think that another hard crash might lead to a condition where he won't be allowed to race? And perhaps this may influence him in taking less risks in the race. So, there is a double risk over there.
4. It might not be worse than Ham&Ros, but isn't their goal to have more harmonious pairing than now?
The problem for Hamilton is that his car can't keep it together not Hamilton himself, unless you think the gearbox and engine issues would magically disappear with another driver?
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Re: "Nico can be replaced by Alonso" - Is Wolff Against Rosb

Post by Blinky McSquinty »

Most posters appear to assume that it would be Rosberg who Mercedes may consider dumping. IMO Hamilton's job is on the line. He is much more volatile, and does bring a lot of negative publicity at times.

Mercedes is eventually going to face much harder competition from the other teams, and they will require a more harmonious relationship between drivers, this crap has to stop. Unfortunately for Hamilton, whenever he faces any competition from his team mate, things get very ugly and very public very quickly. That is his history, it happened with Alonso, Button, and now Rosberg. As far as any team is concerned, as long as any driver can extract the maximum out of their car, that's all that matters. Then it becomes a matter of which driver can contribute most to the team and development of the car.

Spain was supposed to be a marketing "feel good" day for Mercedes. It was the first race this year in Europe, the big boss himself was there, and most likely, quite a few Mercedes employees. No doubt as the cars sat there in the sand Deiter Zetsche must have turned to Toto and said "fix it", or something of that theme.
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Re: "Nico can be replaced by Alonso" - Is Wolff Against Rosb

Post by F1_Ernie »

Extracting the maximum out of the car isn't just what matters. Rosberg isn't on par with the top 3 drivers in F1 at the moment and never will be. If other teams come to front and can challenge Mercedes then they will need a driver who can extract that extra bit of pace out of the car specially when the car isn't to there liking.
Ferrari would have Vettel, Red Bull have 2 drivers now, McLaren have Alonso. Would Merc really get rid of Hamilton to rely on Rosberg to battle those kind of drivers when the car isn't 1 second quicker than the rest. I very much doubt it.
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Re: "Nico can be replaced by Alonso" - Is Wolff Against Rosb

Post by FringeUK »

Blinky McSquinty wrote:Most posters appear to assume that it would be Rosberg who Mercedes may consider dumping. IMO Hamilton's job is on the line. He is much more volatile, and does bring a lot of negative publicity at times.

Mercedes is eventually going to face much harder competition from the other teams, and they will require a more harmonious relationship between drivers, this crap has to stop. Unfortunately for Hamilton, whenever he faces any competition from his team mate, things get very ugly and very public very quickly. That is his history, it happened with Alonso, Button, and now Rosberg. As far as any team is concerned, as long as any driver can extract the maximum out of their car, that's all that matters. Then it becomes a matter of which driver can contribute most to the team and development of the car.

Spain was supposed to be a marketing "feel good" day for Mercedes. It was the first race this year in Europe, the big boss himself was there, and most likely, quite a few Mercedes employees. No doubt as the cars sat there in the sand Deiter Zetsche must have turned to Toto and said "fix it", or something of that theme.
Perhaps - but hasn't Ham already signed for a few years? Breaking a contract can be quite costly?

As for the Ham bringing negative publicity - everyone and his dog knows that any publicity is considered good
when it comes to the media/advertising. (yeah, of course, if he was doing something really bad, like running people over or something - or maybe like publishing (c)rap music! - then yeah, that could be construed as bad publicity!) But in the main, I don't think Mercedes have any gripes over Ham.
It was interesting to note how Ham was easily relatively faster than Ros to get pole - I still think he has the majority upper hand when all is equal (i.e.no car issues, etc). In that regard, though, we only see the results - whereas Merc see the data, and if they think that Ros is actually better than Ham, I'm sure they will retain him. IMHO, the more likely sticking point for Merc is that with them being so far in front of everyone else, the second driver 'status' is not so important - if, and when others get truly closer on pace and in the mix, that is when we will see if Merc still consider they have the best driver pairing. If they drag out the Nico contract negotiations, then that may be an indicator of how they are thinking? It is not often a team has the luxury of a significant pace advantage for so long, and the minor differences in pace between them cannot be considered important. When the top half dozen cars are within a tenth or so of each other - that is when the pressure will mount on (all the various) teammates because any deficiencies between them will be more decisive in the WCC.

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Re: "Nico can be replaced by Alonso" - Is Wolff Against Rosb

Post by lamo »

If Rosberg is leaving, Ferrari is tempting for all drivers after all... I am a Hamilton fan and even I would say as soon as he announces he is off to Ferrari I would be calling conspiracy if Nico had a few technical gremlins or Lewis started to completely dominate him in every quali and race. Mercedes, really wouldn't want him winning the title if he announces he is off.

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Re: "Nico can be replaced by Alonso" - Is Wolff Against Rosb

Post by Ennis »

Lt. Drebin wrote: 1. Mercedes is in position to choose both drivers to fight for WDC, they do not need a driver that can't keep it together for more than a half year, like Hamilton these days.
2. In the time where 0,1 seconds makes a difference between pole position and second or third place, it's crucial to have the driver that is capable of achieving it.
3. Alonso indeed had a couple of hard crashes, for which he had to sit out a few races. It is inevitable that they leave a mark, even if it is not publicly revealed. Don't you think that another hard crash might lead to a condition where he won't be allowed to race? And perhaps this may influence him in taking less risks in the race. So, there is a double risk over there.
4. It might not be worse than Ham&Ros, but isn't their goal to have more harmonious pairing than now?
1. Won the last 2 WDC against Rosberg
2. Alonso would remain capable. The point is a slightly less fast Alonso is probably still quicker than Rosberg - arguably others too but I'll spare specifics to avoid that never ending debate
3. Any driver can get retired by a big crash. Alonso is in no worse a position than other drivers. He's just had bad luck the last 2 years.
4. They could be more harmonious. The point is it certainly won't be listed in the 'against' column.

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Re: "Nico can be replaced by Alonso" - Is Wolff Against Rosb

Post by Chunky »

Everyone forgets the overlap in contracts. In the words of Ron, “He has a straight three-year contract with us, with no options,” said Dennis. “It’s as simple as that. That’s what we wanted to offer him, and that’s what he wanted to sign. I can’t make it plainer than that, can I?"

If Alonso started to walk to the door a year early then given past history, you can be sure that Ron would have him driving the catering truck for the final year of his contract. It's Honda money, so it's not like he'd be cutting off his nose to spite his face. There's no way Merc would pay the money to buy out the Alonso contract. And if they only offered Nico a one year deal, he'd likely tell them to stick it.


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Re: "Nico can be replaced by Alonso" - Is Wolff Against Rosb

Post by mcdo »

Chunky wrote:Everyone forgets the overlap in contracts. In the words of Ron, “He has a straight three-year contract with us, with no options,” said Dennis. “It’s as simple as that. That’s what we wanted to offer him, and that’s what he wanted to sign. I can’t make it plainer than that, can I?"

If Alonso started to walk to the door a year early then given past history, you can be sure that Ron would have him driving the catering truck for the final year of his contract. It's Honda money, so it's not like he'd be cutting off his nose to spite his face. There's no way Merc would pay the money to buy out the Alonso contract. And if they only offered Nico a one year deal, he'd likely tell them to stick it.


.
I actually agree with you here. If I was Ron and I knew Alonso was in serious negotiations with Merc I'd have Vandoorne in the car at the very next race.
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Re: "Nico can be replaced by Alonso" - Is Wolff Against Rosb

Post by pokerman »

Blinky McSquinty wrote:Most posters appear to assume that it would be Rosberg who Mercedes may consider dumping. IMO Hamilton's job is on the line. He is much more volatile, and does bring a lot of negative publicity at times.

Mercedes is eventually going to face much harder competition from the other teams, and they will require a more harmonious relationship between drivers, this crap has to stop. Unfortunately for Hamilton, whenever he faces any competition from his team mate, things get very ugly and very public very quickly. That is his history, it happened with Alonso, Button, and now Rosberg. As far as any team is concerned, as long as any driver can extract the maximum out of their car, that's all that matters. Then it becomes a matter of which driver can contribute most to the team and development of the car.

Spain was supposed to be a marketing "feel good" day for Mercedes. It was the first race this year in Europe, the big boss himself was there, and most likely, quite a few Mercedes employees. No doubt as the cars sat there in the sand Deiter Zetsche must have turned to Toto and said "fix it", or something of that theme.
This is clearly just taking Rosberg's side on the Barcelona crash, what volatility or negativity have we seen from Hamilton this season?

Also do you actually feel that Rosberg is the driver that has been showing the maximum potential of the car these past few seasons, even this season, he has lost to Hamilton in every qualifying session this season, unless you want to count when Hamilton has had engine issues, then he is also able to beat Hamilton when he has a damaged car.

Hamilton has over 2 years left on his contract, Rosberg less than a year yet Hamilton is the driver in danger of being dropped, I'm not sure I see the logic in any of this?
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Re: "Nico can be replaced by Alonso" - Is Wolff Against Rosb

Post by mikeyg123 »

Blinky McSquinty wrote:Most posters appear to assume that it would be Rosberg who Mercedes may consider dumping. IMO Hamilton's job is on the line. He is much more volatile, and does bring a lot of negative publicity at times.

Mercedes is eventually going to face much harder competition from the other teams, and they will require a more harmonious relationship between drivers, this crap has to stop. Unfortunately for Hamilton, whenever he faces any competition from his team mate, things get very ugly and very public very quickly. That is his history, it happened with Alonso, Button, and now Rosberg. As far as any team is concerned, as long as any driver can extract the maximum out of their car, that's all that matters. Then it becomes a matter of which driver can contribute most to the team and development of the car.

Spain was supposed to be a marketing "feel good" day for Mercedes. It was the first race this year in Europe, the big boss himself was there, and most likely, quite a few Mercedes employees. No doubt as the cars sat there in the sand Deiter Zetsche must have turned to Toto and said "fix it", or something of that theme.
I would say Nico has been the more volatile whilst both have been at Mercedes. Certainly most of the disharmony has been caused by Rosberg. He certainly initiated it.

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Re: "Nico can be replaced by Alonso" - Is Wolff Against Rosb

Post by paulsf1fix »

I thought Alonso has a contract with McLaren for next year?

The F1 silly season is one to watch this year, however Wolff could be onto something though

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Re: "Nico can be replaced by Alonso" - Is Wolff Against Rosb

Post by Zoue »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Blinky McSquinty wrote:Most posters appear to assume that it would be Rosberg who Mercedes may consider dumping. IMO Hamilton's job is on the line. He is much more volatile, and does bring a lot of negative publicity at times.

Mercedes is eventually going to face much harder competition from the other teams, and they will require a more harmonious relationship between drivers, this crap has to stop. Unfortunately for Hamilton, whenever he faces any competition from his team mate, things get very ugly and very public very quickly. That is his history, it happened with Alonso, Button, and now Rosberg. As far as any team is concerned, as long as any driver can extract the maximum out of their car, that's all that matters. Then it becomes a matter of which driver can contribute most to the team and development of the car.

Spain was supposed to be a marketing "feel good" day for Mercedes. It was the first race this year in Europe, the big boss himself was there, and most likely, quite a few Mercedes employees. No doubt as the cars sat there in the sand Deiter Zetsche must have turned to Toto and said "fix it", or something of that theme.
I would say Nico has been the more volatile whilst both have been at Mercedes. Certainly most of the disharmony has been caused by Rosberg. He certainly initiated it.
couldn't disagree with you more there. Must be a different Mercedes team we've been looking at.

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Re: "Nico can be replaced by Alonso" - Is Wolff Against Rosb

Post by Zoue »

pokerman wrote:
Blinky McSquinty wrote:Most posters appear to assume that it would be Rosberg who Mercedes may consider dumping. IMO Hamilton's job is on the line. He is much more volatile, and does bring a lot of negative publicity at times.

Mercedes is eventually going to face much harder competition from the other teams, and they will require a more harmonious relationship between drivers, this crap has to stop. Unfortunately for Hamilton, whenever he faces any competition from his team mate, things get very ugly and very public very quickly. That is his history, it happened with Alonso, Button, and now Rosberg. As far as any team is concerned, as long as any driver can extract the maximum out of their car, that's all that matters. Then it becomes a matter of which driver can contribute most to the team and development of the car.

Spain was supposed to be a marketing "feel good" day for Mercedes. It was the first race this year in Europe, the big boss himself was there, and most likely, quite a few Mercedes employees. No doubt as the cars sat there in the sand Deiter Zetsche must have turned to Toto and said "fix it", or something of that theme.
This is clearly just taking Rosberg's side on the Barcelona crash, what volatility or negativity have we seen from Hamilton this season?

Also do you actually feel that Rosberg is the driver that has been showing the maximum potential of the car these past few seasons, even this season, he has lost to Hamilton in every qualifying session this season, unless you want to count when Hamilton has had engine issues, then he is also able to beat Hamilton when he has a damaged car.

Hamilton has over 2 years left on his contract, Rosberg less than a year yet Hamilton is the driver in danger of being dropped, I'm not sure I see the logic in any of this?
There have been a series of misfortunes which have befallen Lewis this year, but he can't really say his team mate has out-performed him, so there's no need for him to feel threatened. He's beaten Nico in the qualifying head to heads, for example.

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Re: "Nico can be replaced by Alonso" - Is Wolff Against Rosb

Post by mikeyg123 »

Zoue wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Blinky McSquinty wrote:Most posters appear to assume that it would be Rosberg who Mercedes may consider dumping. IMO Hamilton's job is on the line. He is much more volatile, and does bring a lot of negative publicity at times.

Mercedes is eventually going to face much harder competition from the other teams, and they will require a more harmonious relationship between drivers, this crap has to stop. Unfortunately for Hamilton, whenever he faces any competition from his team mate, things get very ugly and very public very quickly. That is his history, it happened with Alonso, Button, and now Rosberg. As far as any team is concerned, as long as any driver can extract the maximum out of their car, that's all that matters. Then it becomes a matter of which driver can contribute most to the team and development of the car.

Spain was supposed to be a marketing "feel good" day for Mercedes. It was the first race this year in Europe, the big boss himself was there, and most likely, quite a few Mercedes employees. No doubt as the cars sat there in the sand Deiter Zetsche must have turned to Toto and said "fix it", or something of that theme.
I would say Nico has been the more volatile whilst both have been at Mercedes. Certainly most of the disharmony has been caused by Rosberg. He certainly initiated it.
couldn't disagree with you more there. Must be a different Mercedes team we've been looking at.
Things were fine before Monaco 2014.

Don't get me wrong Hamilton is an emotional guy who sulks and doesn't always deal with things in a positive way. But as I said, Monaco 2014. That started everything. The drivers were on good terms before then. I don't think Hamilton has ever quite gotten over what he saw as a betrayal by somebody he took for a friend.

Hamilton's problem is that he hasn't been able to fully put that behind him and you can see now how much losing out to Rosberg effects him. But it was Rosberg that started everything.

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Re: "Nico can be replaced by Alonso" - Is Wolff Against Rosb

Post by Zoue »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Blinky McSquinty wrote:Most posters appear to assume that it would be Rosberg who Mercedes may consider dumping. IMO Hamilton's job is on the line. He is much more volatile, and does bring a lot of negative publicity at times.

Mercedes is eventually going to face much harder competition from the other teams, and they will require a more harmonious relationship between drivers, this crap has to stop. Unfortunately for Hamilton, whenever he faces any competition from his team mate, things get very ugly and very public very quickly. That is his history, it happened with Alonso, Button, and now Rosberg. As far as any team is concerned, as long as any driver can extract the maximum out of their car, that's all that matters. Then it becomes a matter of which driver can contribute most to the team and development of the car.

Spain was supposed to be a marketing "feel good" day for Mercedes. It was the first race this year in Europe, the big boss himself was there, and most likely, quite a few Mercedes employees. No doubt as the cars sat there in the sand Deiter Zetsche must have turned to Toto and said "fix it", or something of that theme.
I would say Nico has been the more volatile whilst both have been at Mercedes. Certainly most of the disharmony has been caused by Rosberg. He certainly initiated it.
couldn't disagree with you more there. Must be a different Mercedes team we've been looking at.
Things were fine before Monaco 2014.

Don't get me wrong Hamilton is an emotional guy who sulks and doesn't always deal with things in a positive way. But as I said, Monaco 2014. That started everything. The drivers were on good terms before then. I don't think Hamilton has ever quite gotten over what he saw as a betrayal by somebody he took for a friend.

Hamilton's problem is that he hasn't been able to fully put that behind him and you can see now how much losing out to Rosberg effects him. But it was Rosberg that started everything.
According to Rosberg it was an accident. That is still the official line. But Lewis wasted no time in going to the press and publicly accusing Rosberg of being underhand. So there's a case to be had to say that it was Lewis who started the bad blood. He did the same after Spa when he told everybody as loudly as he could that Nico hit him deliberately. Trial by public lynchmob seems to be Lewis' preferred method of operating whenever he feels hard done by.

Don't misunderstand me, I'm not claiming that Rosberg is an angel. But Lewis' propensity to have his fights in public cannot do anything but create disharmony. How is Rosberg supposed to work together with a guy who calls him names and accuses him of dishonesty in public?

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Re: "Nico can be replaced by Alonso" - Is Wolff Against Rosb

Post by mikeyg123 »

Zoue wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Blinky McSquinty wrote:Most posters appear to assume that it would be Rosberg who Mercedes may consider dumping. IMO Hamilton's job is on the line. He is much more volatile, and does bring a lot of negative publicity at times.

Mercedes is eventually going to face much harder competition from the other teams, and they will require a more harmonious relationship between drivers, this crap has to stop. Unfortunately for Hamilton, whenever he faces any competition from his team mate, things get very ugly and very public very quickly. That is his history, it happened with Alonso, Button, and now Rosberg. As far as any team is concerned, as long as any driver can extract the maximum out of their car, that's all that matters. Then it becomes a matter of which driver can contribute most to the team and development of the car.

Spain was supposed to be a marketing "feel good" day for Mercedes. It was the first race this year in Europe, the big boss himself was there, and most likely, quite a few Mercedes employees. No doubt as the cars sat there in the sand Deiter Zetsche must have turned to Toto and said "fix it", or something of that theme.
I would say Nico has been the more volatile whilst both have been at Mercedes. Certainly most of the disharmony has been caused by Rosberg. He certainly initiated it.
couldn't disagree with you more there. Must be a different Mercedes team we've been looking at.
Things were fine before Monaco 2014.

Don't get me wrong Hamilton is an emotional guy who sulks and doesn't always deal with things in a positive way. But as I said, Monaco 2014. That started everything. The drivers were on good terms before then. I don't think Hamilton has ever quite gotten over what he saw as a betrayal by somebody he took for a friend.

Hamilton's problem is that he hasn't been able to fully put that behind him and you can see now how much losing out to Rosberg effects him. But it was Rosberg that started everything.
According to Rosberg it was an accident. That is still the official line. But Lewis wasted no time in going to the press and publicly accusing Rosberg of being underhand. So there's a case to be had to say that it was Lewis who started the bad blood. He did the same after Spa when he told everybody as loudly as he could that Nico hit him deliberately. Trial by public lynchmob seems to be Lewis' preferred method of operating whenever he feels hard done by.

Don't misunderstand me, I'm not claiming that Rosberg is an angel. But Lewis' propensity to have his fights in public cannot do anything but create disharmony. How is Rosberg supposed to work together with a guy who calls him names and accuses him of dishonesty in public?
But on the flip side how is Hamilton supposed to work with a team member he knows is happy to cheat to beat him? Official line or not you won't find many people up and down the paddock who supported Rosberg's version of events.

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Re: "Nico can be replaced by Alonso" - Is Wolff Against Rosb

Post by mcdo »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:I would say Nico has been the more volatile whilst both have been at Mercedes. Certainly most of the disharmony has been caused by Rosberg. He certainly initiated it.
couldn't disagree with you more there. Must be a different Mercedes team we've been looking at.
Things were fine before Monaco 2014.

Don't get me wrong Hamilton is an emotional guy who sulks and doesn't always deal with things in a positive way. But as I said, Monaco 2014. That started everything. The drivers were on good terms before then. I don't think Hamilton has ever quite gotten over what he saw as a betrayal by somebody he took for a friend.

Hamilton's problem is that he hasn't been able to fully put that behind him and you can see now how much losing out to Rosberg effects him. But it was Rosberg that started everything.
According to Rosberg it was an accident. That is still the official line. But Lewis wasted no time in going to the press and publicly accusing Rosberg of being underhand. So there's a case to be had to say that it was Lewis who started the bad blood. He did the same after Spa when he told everybody as loudly as he could that Nico hit him deliberately. Trial by public lynchmob seems to be Lewis' preferred method of operating whenever he feels hard done by.

Don't misunderstand me, I'm not claiming that Rosberg is an angel. But Lewis' propensity to have his fights in public cannot do anything but create disharmony. How is Rosberg supposed to work together with a guy who calls him names and accuses him of dishonesty in public?
But on the flip side how is Hamilton supposed to work with a team member he knows is happy to cheat to beat him? Official line or not you won't find many people up and down the paddock who supported Rosberg's version of events.
I didn't know that this was the widely accepted view now. It certainly wasn't at the time
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Re: "Nico can be replaced by Alonso" - Is Wolff Against Rosb

Post by Zoue »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote: I would say Nico has been the more volatile whilst both have been at Mercedes. Certainly most of the disharmony has been caused by Rosberg. He certainly initiated it.
couldn't disagree with you more there. Must be a different Mercedes team we've been looking at.
Things were fine before Monaco 2014.

Don't get me wrong Hamilton is an emotional guy who sulks and doesn't always deal with things in a positive way. But as I said, Monaco 2014. That started everything. The drivers were on good terms before then. I don't think Hamilton has ever quite gotten over what he saw as a betrayal by somebody he took for a friend.

Hamilton's problem is that he hasn't been able to fully put that behind him and you can see now how much losing out to Rosberg effects him. But it was Rosberg that started everything.
According to Rosberg it was an accident. That is still the official line. But Lewis wasted no time in going to the press and publicly accusing Rosberg of being underhand. So there's a case to be had to say that it was Lewis who started the bad blood. He did the same after Spa when he told everybody as loudly as he could that Nico hit him deliberately. Trial by public lynchmob seems to be Lewis' preferred method of operating whenever he feels hard done by.

Don't misunderstand me, I'm not claiming that Rosberg is an angel. But Lewis' propensity to have his fights in public cannot do anything but create disharmony. How is Rosberg supposed to work together with a guy who calls him names and accuses him of dishonesty in public?
But on the flip side how is Hamilton supposed to work with a team member he knows is happy to cheat to beat him? Official line or not you won't find many people up and down the paddock who supported Rosberg's version of events.
well without taking a straw poll we'll never know. My point is that volatility is a byword for Lewis. If I had a disagreement with someone I'd approach them to try and sort it out. If I couldn't I'd take it up with management to mediate. I certainly wouldn't go round the canteen gossiping about him and pointing fingers to try and engender sympathy from everyone and turn them against him. If someone did that to me, or more than one occasion, too, I'd find it very difficult to work with him. If Lewis has any complaints about team harmony then he needs to take a good hard look at himself first before pointing fingers.

And I disagree that he knows Rosberg cheated in any way. He suspects, but that's not the same. Not by a long shot.

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Re: "Nico can be replaced by Alonso" - Is Wolff Against Rosb

Post by Blinky McSquinty »

Hamilton_Jar wrote:Extracting the maximum out of the car isn't just what matters. Rosberg isn't on par with the top 3 drivers in F1 at the moment and never will be. If other teams come to front and can challenge Mercedes then they will need a driver who can extract that extra bit of pace out of the car specially when the car isn't to there liking.
Ferrari would have Vettel, Red Bull have 2 drivers now, McLaren have Alonso. Would Merc really get rid of Hamilton to rely on Rosberg to battle those kind of drivers when the car isn't 1 second quicker than the rest. I very much doubt it.
But Hamilton was not happy with his setup, and Saturday morning took Rosberg's and went in that direction. I'll be the first to raise my hand and state that Hamilton is probably the most talented driver of his generation. But you must have a car that is sorted out. These days the myth that a talented driver can wring more than 100% out of a car is just that, a myth. With telemetry, teams of engineers,simulators, and computer analysis, the gap between the top drivers is minuscule, and as we have witnessed for the last few decades, it doesn't matter how good you are, you just need a good car.

Rosberg could have won the WDC in the last two years, and IMO that makes both Rosberg and Hamilton redundant. Mercedes would have won those titles with any of the top ten drivers.

And I disagree on your assessment of Rosberg, he isn't second tier, he's presently on top of his game and delivering. Formula One is more than just one lap pace, it is 300 km in battle with 21 other drivers. You don't solely judge a football player on how hard he kicks, his positioning, play making, and calm under pressure is also very valued. if it was sheer pace that mattered, they would just run off one lap time trials and declare a winner. But instead, it is a competition involving dealing with many changing factors.
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Re: "Nico can be replaced by Alonso" - Is Wolff Against Rosb

Post by mikeyg123 »

Zoue wrote: well without taking a straw poll we'll never know. My point is that volatility is a byword for Lewis. If I had a disagreement with someone I'd approach them to try and sort it out. If I couldn't I'd take it up with management to mediate. I certainly wouldn't go round the canteen gossiping about him and pointing fingers to try and engender sympathy from everyone and turn them against him. If someone did that to me, or more than one occasion, too, I'd find it very difficult to work with him. If Lewis has any complaints about team harmony then he needs to take a good hard look at himself first before pointing fingers.

And I disagree that he knows Rosberg cheated in any way. He suspects, but that's not the same. Not by a long shot.
I'm not saying Hamilton's behavior has been impeccable but it all started in Monaco 2014. That was all Rosberg's doing.

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Re: "Nico can be replaced by Alonso" - Is Wolff Against Rosb

Post by Zoue »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Zoue wrote: well without taking a straw poll we'll never know. My point is that volatility is a byword for Lewis. If I had a disagreement with someone I'd approach them to try and sort it out. If I couldn't I'd take it up with management to mediate. I certainly wouldn't go round the canteen gossiping about him and pointing fingers to try and engender sympathy from everyone and turn them against him. If someone did that to me, or more than one occasion, too, I'd find it very difficult to work with him. If Lewis has any complaints about team harmony then he needs to take a good hard look at himself first before pointing fingers.

And I disagree that he knows Rosberg cheated in any way. He suspects, but that's not the same. Not by a long shot.
I'm not saying Hamilton's behavior has been impeccable but it all started in Monaco 2014. That was all Rosberg's doing.
I understand your position. But I'm saying I don't agree it was all Rosberg's doing at all, not by a long shot. I think we should agree to disagree!

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Re: "Nico can be replaced by Alonso" - Is Wolff Against Rosb

Post by babararacucudada »

Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Blinky McSquinty wrote:Most posters appear to assume that it would be Rosberg who Mercedes may consider dumping. IMO Hamilton's job is on the line. He is much more volatile, and does bring a lot of negative publicity at times.

Mercedes is eventually going to face much harder competition from the other teams, and they will require a more harmonious relationship between drivers, this crap has to stop. Unfortunately for Hamilton, whenever he faces any competition from his team mate, things get very ugly and very public very quickly. That is his history, it happened with Alonso, Button, and now Rosberg. As far as any team is concerned, as long as any driver can extract the maximum out of their car, that's all that matters. Then it becomes a matter of which driver can contribute most to the team and development of the car.

Spain was supposed to be a marketing "feel good" day for Mercedes. It was the first race this year in Europe, the big boss himself was there, and most likely, quite a few Mercedes employees. No doubt as the cars sat there in the sand Deiter Zetsche must have turned to Toto and said "fix it", or something of that theme.
This is clearly just taking Rosberg's side on the Barcelona crash, what volatility or negativity have we seen from Hamilton this season?

Also do you actually feel that Rosberg is the driver that has been showing the maximum potential of the car these past few seasons, even this season, he has lost to Hamilton in every qualifying session this season, unless you want to count when Hamilton has had engine issues, then he is also able to beat Hamilton when he has a damaged car.

Hamilton has over 2 years left on his contract, Rosberg less than a year yet Hamilton is the driver in danger of being dropped, I'm not sure I see the logic in any of this?
There have been a series of misfortunes which have befallen Lewis this year, but he can't really say his team mate has out-performed him, so there's no need for him to feel threatened. He's beaten Nico in the qualifying head to heads, for example.
The point of getting pole position is to get round turn 1 first.
So I think Rosberg can say he has out-performed Hamilton this year.

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Re: "Nico can be replaced by Alonso" - Is Wolff Against Rosb

Post by mikeyg123 »

mcdo wrote: I didn't know that this was the widely accepted view now. It certainly wasn't at the time
It certainly was. I remember Ted Kravitz saying the day after that he had been speaking to team bosses and engineers up and down the paddock and has struggled to find many who thought it was an accident. Even Brundle who was one of the few who supported Rosberg at the time said later in the year that everything he had heard and seen since had changed his view and he now thought Rosberg did it deliberately. It's just a shame we didn't have Keke coming out to suggest Nico should retire like he did when Schumacher did the same thing.

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Re: "Nico can be replaced by Alonso" - Is Wolff Against Rosb

Post by Zoue »

babararacucudada wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Blinky McSquinty wrote:Most posters appear to assume that it would be Rosberg who Mercedes may consider dumping. IMO Hamilton's job is on the line. He is much more volatile, and does bring a lot of negative publicity at times.

Mercedes is eventually going to face much harder competition from the other teams, and they will require a more harmonious relationship between drivers, this crap has to stop. Unfortunately for Hamilton, whenever he faces any competition from his team mate, things get very ugly and very public very quickly. That is his history, it happened with Alonso, Button, and now Rosberg. As far as any team is concerned, as long as any driver can extract the maximum out of their car, that's all that matters. Then it becomes a matter of which driver can contribute most to the team and development of the car.

Spain was supposed to be a marketing "feel good" day for Mercedes. It was the first race this year in Europe, the big boss himself was there, and most likely, quite a few Mercedes employees. No doubt as the cars sat there in the sand Deiter Zetsche must have turned to Toto and said "fix it", or something of that theme.
This is clearly just taking Rosberg's side on the Barcelona crash, what volatility or negativity have we seen from Hamilton this season?

Also do you actually feel that Rosberg is the driver that has been showing the maximum potential of the car these past few seasons, even this season, he has lost to Hamilton in every qualifying session this season, unless you want to count when Hamilton has had engine issues, then he is also able to beat Hamilton when he has a damaged car.

Hamilton has over 2 years left on his contract, Rosberg less than a year yet Hamilton is the driver in danger of being dropped, I'm not sure I see the logic in any of this?
There have been a series of misfortunes which have befallen Lewis this year, but he can't really say his team mate has out-performed him, so there's no need for him to feel threatened. He's beaten Nico in the qualifying head to heads, for example.
The point of getting pole position is to get round turn 1 first.
So I think Rosberg can say he has out-performed Hamilton this year.
I'm talking about whether he feels threatened by Nico's performances. My own view is that we've not yet had a race where they could measure up against each other so performance is hard to judge. Qualifying is another measure and there Lewis has been ahead. I suspect if it was the other way around Lewis would be rattled but as it is I think he probably feels more threatened by misfortune that by Nico himself

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Re: "Nico can be replaced by Alonso" - Is Wolff Against Rosb

Post by F1_Ernie »

Blinky McSquinty wrote:
Hamilton_Jar wrote:Extracting the maximum out of the car isn't just what matters. Rosberg isn't on par with the top 3 drivers in F1 at the moment and never will be. If other teams come to front and can challenge Mercedes then they will need a driver who can extract that extra bit of pace out of the car specially when the car isn't to there liking.
Ferrari would have Vettel, Red Bull have 2 drivers now, McLaren have Alonso. Would Merc really get rid of Hamilton to rely on Rosberg to battle those kind of drivers when the car isn't 1 second quicker than the rest. I very much doubt it.
But Hamilton was not happy with his setup, and Saturday morning took Rosberg's and went in that direction. I'll be the first to raise my hand and state that Hamilton is probably the most talented driver of his generation. But you must have a car that is sorted out. These days the myth that a talented driver can wring more than 100% out of a car is just that, a myth. With telemetry, teams of engineers,simulators, and computer analysis, the gap between the top drivers is minuscule, and as we have witnessed for the last few decades, it doesn't matter how good you are, you just need a good car.

Rosberg could have won the WDC in the last two years, and IMO that makes both Rosberg and Hamilton redundant. Mercedes would have won those titles with any of the top ten drivers.

And I disagree on your assessment of Rosberg, he isn't second tier, he's presently on top of his game and delivering. Formula One is more than just one lap pace, it is 300 km in battle with 21 other drivers. You don't solely judge a football player on how hard he kicks, his positioning, play making, and calm under pressure is also very valued. if it was sheer pace that mattered, they would just run off one lap time trials and declare a winner. But instead, it is a competition involving dealing with many changing factors.
1st tier drivers are Vettel, Alonso and Hamilton. Then there's even Button and Ricciardo. Rosberg is not at 1st tier level and you would hardly find anyone who thinks he is. If other teams got to the same level as Merc would Merc really want Rosberg there number 1 driver going against Hamilton, Alonso, Vettel, Ricciardo, Verstappen at other teams with no pace advantage of 1 second, like I said very much doubt it.
You say any drivers in the top 10 could of won the championship the last 2 years which is true but then you say Rosberg is currently delivering. Delivering a Merc when the other is no where to be seen is what any other driver in the top 10 would of done. Delivering Rosberg is but is it a massive achievement when you look at what's happened, not any different from any other driver would of achieved.

I also thought it would be a miracle for Vertsappen to get 15th in Spain? Haha
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Re: "Nico can be replaced by Alonso" - Is Wolff Against Rosb

Post by mikeyg123 »

I think Rosberg ism like Button, currently a 1.5 sort of driver. Not as good as Alonso, Hamilton, Ricciardo or Vettel but better than the rest. We need to see Rosberg being able to beat Hamilton in quali sometimes and see how they compare in a race before we say Rosberg is at that level. He might be but with everything that's happened to Hamilton it's impossible to tell.

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Re: "Nico can be replaced by Alonso" - Is Wolff Against Rosb

Post by Prema »

mikeyg123 wrote:I think Rosberg ism like Button, currently a 1.5 sort of driver. Not as good as Alonso, Hamilton, Ricciardo or Vettel but better than the rest. We need to see Rosberg being able to beat Hamilton in quali sometimes and see how they compare in a race before we say Rosberg is at that level. He might be but with everything that's happened to Hamilton it's impossible to tell.
What are you talking? In 2015 Nico had 7 poles, and in 2014 he had 11 poles against 7 of Hamilton. But you never seen any?

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Re: "Nico can be replaced by Alonso" - Is Wolff Against Rosb

Post by Zblogger »

Blinky McSquinty wrote:
Hamilton_Jar wrote:Extracting the maximum out of the car isn't just what matters. Rosberg isn't on par with the top 3 drivers in F1 at the moment and never will be. If other teams come to front and can challenge Mercedes then they will need a driver who can extract that extra bit of pace out of the car specially when the car isn't to there liking.
Ferrari would have Vettel, Red Bull have 2 drivers now, McLaren have Alonso. Would Merc really get rid of Hamilton to rely on Rosberg to battle those kind of drivers when the car isn't 1 second quicker than the rest. I very much doubt it.
But Hamilton was not happy with his setup, and Saturday morning took Rosberg's and went in that direction. I'll be the first to raise my hand and state that Hamilton is probably the most talented driver of his generation. But you must have a car that is sorted out. These days the myth that a talented driver can wring more than 100% out of a car is just that, a myth. With telemetry, teams of engineers,simulators, and computer analysis, the gap between the top drivers is minuscule, and as we have witnessed for the last few decades, it doesn't matter how good you are, you just need a good car.

Rosberg could have won the WDC in the last two years, and IMO that makes both Rosberg and Hamilton redundant. Mercedes would have won those titles with any of the top ten drivers.

And I disagree on your assessment of Rosberg, he isn't second tier, he's presently on top of his game and delivering. Formula One is more than just one lap pace, it is 300 km in battle with 21 other drivers. You don't solely judge a football player on how hard he kicks, his positioning, play making, and calm under pressure is also very valued. if it was sheer pace that mattered, they would just run off one lap time trials and declare a winner. But instead, it is a competition involving dealing with many changing factors.
"Formula One is more than just one lap pace, it is 300 km in battle with 21 other drivers."

Of course it is that why Hamilton has won many lower tier series all his career through junior racing to single seaters through to formula 1.

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Re: "Nico can be replaced by Alonso" - Is Wolff Against Rosb

Post by mikeyg123 »

Prema wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:I think Rosberg ism like Button, currently a 1.5 sort of driver. Not as good as Alonso, Hamilton, Ricciardo or Vettel but better than the rest. We need to see Rosberg being able to beat Hamilton in quali sometimes and see how they compare in a race before we say Rosberg is at that level. He might be but with everything that's happened to Hamilton it's impossible to tell.
What are you talking? In 2015 Nico had 7 poles, and in 2014 he had 11 poles against 7 of Hamilton. But you never seen any?
I thought we were discussing Rosberg's current form?

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Re: "Nico can be replaced by Alonso" - Is Wolff Against Rosb

Post by Zblogger »

Blinky McSquinty wrote:
Hamilton_Jar wrote:Extracting the maximum out of the car isn't just what matters. Rosberg isn't on par with the top 3 drivers in F1 at the moment and never will be. If other teams come to front and can challenge Mercedes then they will need a driver who can extract that extra bit of pace out of the car specially when the car isn't to there liking.
Ferrari would have Vettel, Red Bull have 2 drivers now, McLaren have Alonso. Would Merc really get rid of Hamilton to rely on Rosberg to battle those kind of drivers when the car isn't 1 second quicker than the rest. I very much doubt it.
But Hamilton was not happy with his setup, and Saturday morning took Rosberg's and went in that direction. I'll be the first to raise my hand and state that Hamilton is probably the most talented driver of his generation. But you must have a car that is sorted out. These days the myth that a talented driver can wring more than 100% out of a car is just that, a myth. With telemetry, teams of engineers,simulators, and computer analysis, the gap between the top drivers is minuscule, and as we have witnessed for the last few decades, it doesn't matter how good you are, you just need a good car.

Rosberg could have won the WDC in the last two years, and IMO that makes both Rosberg and Hamilton redundant. Mercedes would have won those titles with any of the top ten drivers.

And I disagree on your assessment of Rosberg, he isn't second tier, he's presently on top of his game and delivering. Formula One is more than just one lap pace, it is 300 km in battle with 21 other drivers. You don't solely judge a football player on how hard he kicks, his positioning, play making, and calm under pressure is also very valued. if it was sheer pace that mattered, they would just run off one lap time trials and declare a winner. But instead, it is a competition involving dealing with many changing factors.
"But Hamilton was not happy with his setup, and Saturday morning took Rosberg's and went in that direction. I'll be the first to raise my hand and state that Hamilton is probably the most talented driver of his generation. But you must have a car that is sorted out."

To suggest that he's no the good at setting up his car is a myth. I remember in the Mclaren days Jenson button having to copy Hamiton setups for many many races.

Every driver has times in the season in Practice 1 or practice 2 the set up is not quite right.

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Re: "Nico can be replaced by Alonso" - Is Wolff Against Rosb

Post by F1 MERCENARY »

Zoue wrote:
trento wrote:Kimi will only drive for RB and Merc besides Ferrari. So a lot depends on what happens to Rosberg. I think if by mid season, his lead is big enough, he'll stay. If he's losing, he might consider another team. Vettel is going nowhere.

Merc will likely take Alonso despite all the problems.
There's no way RB would take Kimi. They have a decent driver in Sainz waiting in the wings should either of their current drivers leave, so they have no need to take anyone externally.

I also don't see Mercedes taking Kimi, although my crystal ball is a little murkier on that one. I strongly suspect Kimi will be saying goodbye to F1 at the same time he says goodbye to Ferrari.
It's far more likely RBTH would take Kimi over Sainz given the fact that Sainz and Verstappen are particularly not fond of one another. It seems Sainz knows how to get under Verstappen's skin and it doesn't take much.

If anyone is leaving RBTH it's not going to be Max and Kvyat was just "demoted" so not much chance he'll be given another shot given what they've said about him publicly (I call BS) and Kimi has ties to Red Bull as they sponsored his Hoorah in WRC. Still Kimi might land at McLaren if Alonso leaves and they don't renew with Button.

Also aren't Renault keen on Nico as well?

As for Kimi being too inconsistent, he's proving consistently consistent this year and F1 is all about what have you done for me lately.
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Re: "Nico can be replaced by Alonso" - Is Wolff Against Rosb

Post by pokerman »

F1 MERCENARY wrote:
Zoue wrote:
trento wrote:Kimi will only drive for RB and Merc besides Ferrari. So a lot depends on what happens to Rosberg. I think if by mid season, his lead is big enough, he'll stay. If he's losing, he might consider another team. Vettel is going nowhere.

Merc will likely take Alonso despite all the problems.
There's no way RB would take Kimi. They have a decent driver in Sainz waiting in the wings should either of their current drivers leave, so they have no need to take anyone externally.

I also don't see Mercedes taking Kimi, although my crystal ball is a little murkier on that one. I strongly suspect Kimi will be saying goodbye to F1 at the same time he says goodbye to Ferrari.
It's far more likely RBTH would take Kimi over Sainz given the fact that Sainz and Verstappen are particularly not fond of one another. It seems Sainz knows how to get under Verstappen's skin and it doesn't take much.

If anyone is leaving RBTH it's not going to be Max and Kvyat was just "demoted" so not much chance he'll be given another shot given what they've said about him publicly (I call BS) and Kimi has ties to Red Bull as they sponsored his Hoorah in WRC. Still Kimi might land at McLaren if Alonso leaves and they don't renew with Button.

Also aren't Renault keen on Nico as well?

As for Kimi being too inconsistent, he's proving consistently consistent this year and F1 is all about what have you done for me lately.
Red Bull don't recruit outside their junior program also they are only interested in young drivers and not drivers of Kimi's age, Kimi's last gig is very much at Ferrari.
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Re: "Nico can be replaced by Alonso" - Is Wolff Against Rosb

Post by Black_Flag_11 »

Kimi's last gig is very much at Ferrari.
I don't know, wouldn't you have said the same of Massa during his last years at Ferrari? I think I would (probably did).

I could see Renault being on the cards for Kimi, he's an experienced set of hands and a WDC, I can't see any of the other big teams going for him and I don't think he'd be happy to join a midfield team.

I don't include Renault as a proper midfield team because even though they are at the back now they are pretty much just what's left of Lotus with Renault badges on the cars. Renault is a good prospect going forward and I could see one of the older drivers going there. I suppose it would depend on how many bridges he burned at Enstone in 2013, and how many of the top guys are still there. Is Permane still there for example?

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Re: "Nico can be replaced by Alonso" - Is Wolff Against Rosb

Post by infi24r »

Black_Flag_11 wrote:
Kimi's last gig is very much at Ferrari.
I don't know, wouldn't you have said the same of Massa during his last years at Ferrari? I think I would (probably did).

I could see Renault being on the cards for Kimi, he's an experienced set of hands and a WDC, I can't see any of the other big teams going for him and I don't think he'd be happy to join a midfield team.

I don't include Renault as a proper midfield team because even though they are at the back now they are pretty much just what's left of Lotus with Renault badges on the cars. Renault is a good prospect going forward and I could see one of the older drivers going there. I suppose it would depend on how many bridges he burned at Enstone in 2013, and how many of the top guys are still there. Is Permane still there for example?
Kimi is 36 now. He's already well past it and i'm really not sure why he still has a seat at all.

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Re: "Nico can be replaced by Alonso" - Is Wolff Against Rosb

Post by F1 MERCENARY »

Then you don't know a quality driver when you see one.

So past it is Kimi that he's matching and sometimes besting one of the most highly regarded drivers in all of F1 in qualifying and races.


pokerman wrote:
F1 MERCENARY wrote:
Zoue wrote:
trento wrote:Kimi will only drive for RB and Merc besides Ferrari. So a lot depends on what happens to Rosberg. I think if by mid season, his lead is big enough, he'll stay. If he's losing, he might consider another team. Vettel is going nowhere.

Merc will likely take Alonso despite all the problems.
There's no way RB would take Kimi. They have a decent driver in Sainz waiting in the wings should either of their current drivers leave, so they have no need to take anyone externally.

I also don't see Mercedes taking Kimi, although my crystal ball is a little murkier on that one. I strongly suspect Kimi will be saying goodbye to F1 at the same time he says goodbye to Ferrari.
It's far more likely RBTH would take Kimi over Sainz given the fact that Sainz and Verstappen are particularly not fond of one another. It seems Sainz knows how to get under Verstappen's skin and it doesn't take much.

If anyone is leaving RBTH it's not going to be Max and Kvyat was just "demoted" so not much chance he'll be given another shot given what they've said about him publicly (I call BS) and Kimi has ties to Red Bull as they sponsored his Hoorah in WRC. Still Kimi might land at McLaren if Alonso leaves and they don't renew with Button.

Also aren't Renault keen on Nico as well?

As for Kimi being too inconsistent, he's proving consistently consistent this year and F1 is all about what have you done for me lately.
Red Bull don't recruit outside their junior program also they are only interested in young drivers and not drivers of Kimi's age, Kimi's last gig is very much at Ferrari.
Mark Webber was never associated with anything Red Bull, yet he stayed on and they also tested one of the greatest prospects to EVER sit in an F1 car, Sebastian Loeb and gave it serious consideration and he was far from a young driver. The reason why is because age does not determine quality and ability of a driver. In Loeb's case, his vast experience as the very best rally driver for so many years meant his reflexes were as quick and even quicker than F1 guys and his ability behind the wheel is supreme.

While Red Bull promote from heir young driver program, Kyat won't be promoted again (stranger things have happened but I doubt it) and I can't see them reuniting Sainz and Verstappen and I doubt they're crazy enough to put a completely inexperienced driver from heir program into the 2nd Red Bull (again, stranger things have happened). As such this leaves 2, MAYBE 3 names that they'd offer the 2nd seat to should they lose Ricciardo. Rosberg, Alonso & Raikkonen, and now thinking deeper on the subject, perhaps Button if McLaren lock Alonso into a contract and oust him.

One thing we have to remember with Red Bull is that right now thy are on the 3rd consecutive year of not having the best car and the bossman has threatened numerous times (idol as his threats may be… for now) that he'd pull out if they cannot get back to winning sooner rather than later and the WDC isn't what he's talking about. To win the ultimate prize in F1 you need to really good drivers and as such all those names I listed are proven quantities in the sport. Virtual money in the bank.
HAMILTON :: VERSTAPPEN :: LECLERC :: BOTTAS :: VETTEL :: SAINZ :: NORRIS
KVYAT :: RAIKKONEN :: RUSSEL :: ALBON :: RICCIARDO :: HULKENBURG :: PEREZ
STROLL :: MAGNUSSEN :: GROSJEAN :: GASLY :: GIOVANAZZI :: KUBICA

kleefton
Posts: 4052
Joined: Sun Nov 18, 2012 11:14 pm

Re: "Nico can be replaced by Alonso" - Is Wolff Against Rosb

Post by kleefton »

babararacucudada wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Blinky McSquinty wrote:Most posters appear to assume that it would be Rosberg who Mercedes may consider dumping. IMO Hamilton's job is on the line. He is much more volatile, and does bring a lot of negative publicity at times.

Mercedes is eventually going to face much harder competition from the other teams, and they will require a more harmonious relationship between drivers, this crap has to stop. Unfortunately for Hamilton, whenever he faces any competition from his team mate, things get very ugly and very public very quickly. That is his history, it happened with Alonso, Button, and now Rosberg. As far as any team is concerned, as long as any driver can extract the maximum out of their car, that's all that matters. Then it becomes a matter of which driver can contribute most to the team and development of the car.

Spain was supposed to be a marketing "feel good" day for Mercedes. It was the first race this year in Europe, the big boss himself was there, and most likely, quite a few Mercedes employees. No doubt as the cars sat there in the sand Deiter Zetsche must have turned to Toto and said "fix it", or something of that theme.
This is clearly just taking Rosberg's side on the Barcelona crash, what volatility or negativity have we seen from Hamilton this season?

Also do you actually feel that Rosberg is the driver that has been showing the maximum potential of the car these past few seasons, even this season, he has lost to Hamilton in every qualifying session this season, unless you want to count when Hamilton has had engine issues, then he is also able to beat Hamilton when he has a damaged car.

Hamilton has over 2 years left on his contract, Rosberg less than a year yet Hamilton is the driver in danger of being dropped, I'm not sure I see the logic in any of this?
There have been a series of misfortunes which have befallen Lewis this year, but he can't really say his team mate has out-performed him, so there's no need for him to feel threatened. He's beaten Nico in the qualifying head to heads, for example.
The point of getting pole position is to get round turn 1 first.
So I think Rosberg can say he has out-performed Hamilton this year.
I have got to agree here. Out of 3 front row starts so far this year against Lewis, Rosberg is 3-0 in terms of who gets out of turn 1 first. That will be in the back of Lewis's mind until he can change that trend. Rosberg's race craft has gotten a lot better and that is partly why he has such a big lead.

kleefton
Posts: 4052
Joined: Sun Nov 18, 2012 11:14 pm

Re: "Nico can be replaced by Alonso" - Is Wolff Against Rosb

Post by kleefton »

IDrinkYourMilkshake wrote:It's really fishy, after Spa 2014, he was quick to accuse Rosberg, together with Lauda, with Rosberg not even getting a chance to speak first.

However, after the last race, Hamilton admitted he was wrong, Lauda called it as Hamilton's mistake, but Toto had a problem with that and said both drivers are wrong, despite one admitting to it.

And then this strange piece of news. Which team principal talks like this, saying "If my driver doesn't sign, I already have another lined up, who's fantastic". The timing and the words are really, really inappropriate.

http://gptoday.com/full_story/view/5655 ... edes_boss/

Is it a commercial angle for favouring Hamilton, since he's the more extroverted, celeb-lifestyle driver, which Wolff might think helps the Mercedes brand get young customers, or is it something else?

I have always felt that Toto Wolff is a pro Rosberg guy while Lauda is pro Hamilton. But they are both very honest people. I think that there is a very genuine interest from Ferrari to pick up Rosberg and in my opinion it would be a slam dunk.
Part of the reason Mercedes dominates is because Hamilton and Rosberg push each other so hard in terms of outright pace. I don't even think Alonso would challenge Lewis in the same way. In fact I dare to say that Alonso would weaken Mercedes.
I am not saying that Rosberg is better than Alonso, but the latter is older and he has not shown that he can quite match Lewis in terms of one lap pace. Rosberg is much closer in that area in my opinion. Alonso has trouble outqualifying Jenson Button. Lewis never did.
I also do not see Alonso as the best development driver in the world. He has failed to bring Ferrari to the front while he was there for half a decade and so far he is not making a strong impression at Mclaren either. Alonso strength is that he will drive the hell out of the car and get results, but does not strike you as the most technical guy.
Rosberg to Ferrari works for Ferrari because Rosberg can give them a lot of valuable intel he would have gathered from Mercedes. He will push Vettel as well. I would love to see it happen. To be honest I am growing a little weary of the Rosberg and Hamilton fight, it seems it is less and less about racing and too much about mind games and other shenanigans. I mean 5 races in and those guys have yet to have a proper battle on track.

What if Nico really wants to get the hell out of there? I think maybe Nico himself is tired of racing Hamilton, tired of playing second fiddle to him. He probably knows by now that he is slower than Lewis, but not that much slower. Maybe Nico just wants out and is craving for new surroundings. Let's keep in mind new regulations next year do not guarantee Mercedes dominance anyway. It would be the perfect time to leave, especially if he could bag the WDC.

trento
Posts: 956
Joined: Sun Sep 14, 2003 4:06 pm

Re: "Nico can be replaced by Alonso" - Is Wolff Against Rosb

Post by trento »

Blinky McSquinty wrote:Most posters appear to assume that it would be Rosberg who Mercedes may consider dumping. IMO Hamilton's job is on the line. He is much more volatile, and does bring a lot of negative publicity at times.

Mercedes is eventually going to face much harder competition from the other teams, and they will require a more harmonious relationship between drivers, this crap has to stop. Unfortunately for Hamilton, whenever he faces any competition from his team mate, things get very ugly and very public very quickly. That is his history, it happened with Alonso, Button, and now Rosberg. As far as any team is concerned, as long as any driver can extract the maximum out of their car, that's all that matters. Then it becomes a matter of which driver can contribute most to the team and development of the car.

Spain was supposed to be a marketing "feel good" day for Mercedes. It was the first race this year in Europe, the big boss himself was there, and most likely, quite a few Mercedes employees. No doubt as the cars sat there in the sand Deiter Zetsche must have turned to Toto and said "fix it", or something of that theme.
cos Hamilton is still under contract. Rosberg needs to sign.

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