Ricciardo Vs Verstappen - Who will come out on top?

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Who will come out on top?

Daniel Ricciardo
69
67%
Max Verstappen
34
33%
 
Total votes: 103

F1Oz
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Re: Ricciardo Vs Verstappen - Who will come out on top?

Post by F1Oz »

Have to say that a single faster out lap is not evidence that Verstappen was doing better than Dan.

Unless there was a specific need to do the faster out lap, the driver actually risks reducing the life and effectiveness of the tyres and so driving smoothly and bringing the tyres in is actually better driving.

There is a reason why DR consistently makes his tyres last better - and I submit, that out lap is more likely evidence of that rather than evidence that Verstappen was better in Spain.

When needed, Dan was able to stretch out against Verstappen - and given he had track position, I think it's fair to say that Dan should be given the nod on better driving on the day - while Max drove well (and better than I expected) but got lucky. The reality is that had the Mercs been in the lead, you wonder whether the same tactics would have been used?

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Re: Ricciardo Vs Verstappen - Who will come out on top?

Post by Randine »

F1Oz wrote:Have to say that a single faster out lap is not evidence that Verstappen was doing better than Dan.

Unless there was a specific need to do the faster out lap, the driver actually risks reducing the life and effectiveness of the tyres and so driving smoothly and bringing the tyres in is actually better driving.

There is a reason why DR consistently makes his tyres last better - and I submit, that out lap is more likely evidence of that rather than evidence that Verstappen was better in Spain.

When needed, Dan was able to stretch out against Verstappen - and given he had track position, I think it's fair to say that Dan should be given the nod on better driving on the day - while Max drove well (and better than I expected) but got lucky. The reality is that had the Mercs been in the lead, you wonder whether the same tactics would have been used?
James Allen did an interesting article on the strategy of the race.
http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2016/05/s ... r-ferrari/
He seems to think they put Ric under a bus.
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P1 or Else
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Re: Ricciardo Vs Verstappen - Who will come out on top?

Post by P1 or Else »

The mind game will favor Max - Ricciardo will press too hard to prove superiority (or equallity) and the frustration will boil out.
Verstappen hadn't even driven the Red Bull until last weekend! If Lauda calls him the talent of the century, I'll go with his evaluation unequivocally.
With Renault's new power unit and Max at the helm - Red Bull just leapfrogged Ferrari as the main competition to Mercedes.

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Re: Ricciardo Vs Verstappen - Who will come out on top?

Post by pokerman »

Randine wrote:
F1Oz wrote:Have to say that a single faster out lap is not evidence that Verstappen was doing better than Dan.

Unless there was a specific need to do the faster out lap, the driver actually risks reducing the life and effectiveness of the tyres and so driving smoothly and bringing the tyres in is actually better driving.

There is a reason why DR consistently makes his tyres last better - and I submit, that out lap is more likely evidence of that rather than evidence that Verstappen was better in Spain.

When needed, Dan was able to stretch out against Verstappen - and given he had track position, I think it's fair to say that Dan should be given the nod on better driving on the day - while Max drove well (and better than I expected) but got lucky. The reality is that had the Mercs been in the lead, you wonder whether the same tactics would have been used?
James Allen did an interesting article on the strategy of the race.
http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2016/05/s ... r-ferrari/
He seems to think they put Ric under a bus.
That's quite damning, Red Bull threw Ricciardo under the bus.
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Zoue
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Re: Ricciardo Vs Verstappen - Who will come out on top?

Post by Zoue »

pokerman wrote:
Randine wrote:
F1Oz wrote:Have to say that a single faster out lap is not evidence that Verstappen was doing better than Dan.

Unless there was a specific need to do the faster out lap, the driver actually risks reducing the life and effectiveness of the tyres and so driving smoothly and bringing the tyres in is actually better driving.

There is a reason why DR consistently makes his tyres last better - and I submit, that out lap is more likely evidence of that rather than evidence that Verstappen was better in Spain.

When needed, Dan was able to stretch out against Verstappen - and given he had track position, I think it's fair to say that Dan should be given the nod on better driving on the day - while Max drove well (and better than I expected) but got lucky. The reality is that had the Mercs been in the lead, you wonder whether the same tactics would have been used?
James Allen did an interesting article on the strategy of the race.
http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2016/05/s ... r-ferrari/
He seems to think they put Ric under a bus.
That's quite damning, Red Bull threw Ricciardo under the bus.
Considering the headline is "who made the bigger mistake," I don't see how that translates into them saying they threw Ric under the bus. No-one's denying they screwed up, but that's a different thing

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Re: Ricciardo Vs Verstappen - Who will come out on top?

Post by purchville »

Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Randine wrote:
F1Oz wrote:Have to say that a single faster out lap is not evidence that Verstappen was doing better than Dan.

Unless there was a specific need to do the faster out lap, the driver actually risks reducing the life and effectiveness of the tyres and so driving smoothly and bringing the tyres in is actually better driving.

There is a reason why DR consistently makes his tyres last better - and I submit, that out lap is more likely evidence of that rather than evidence that Verstappen was better in Spain.

When needed, Dan was able to stretch out against Verstappen - and given he had track position, I think it's fair to say that Dan should be given the nod on better driving on the day - while Max drove well (and better than I expected) but got lucky. The reality is that had the Mercs been in the lead, you wonder whether the same tactics would have been used?
James Allen did an interesting article on the strategy of the race.
http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2016/05/s ... r-ferrari/
He seems to think they put Ric under a bus.
That's quite damning, Red Bull threw Ricciardo under the bus.
Considering the headline is "who made the bigger mistake," I don't see how that translates into them saying they threw Ric under the bus. No-one's denying they screwed up, but that's a different thing
For those who want to read beyond the headline, from the article:
"The obvious thing to do in Barcelona was to ask Verstappen to drop back three seconds behind Ricciardo, dropping Vettel out of range of undercutting the Australian. From there Ricciardo would be certain to win the race and a team victory would be secure. Verstappen would probably have finished third in that scenario.

But they either didn’t want to ask Verstappen to do that or didn’t want to prioritise Ricciardo for the win. Perhaps a supremely strong result for Verstappen on his Red Bull debut would justify dropping Daniil Kvyat in favour of the Dutchman."


Note also that RIC started the race on a 2-stop strategy and was surprised when it got changed mid-race. In my opinion RIC had the race well under control, although the Ferraris showed better race pace that the Red Bulls after the first stops. Max closed the gap to RIC during the second stint and then RIC began to extend again before his second stop, suggesting that he had pace in hand. Rarely did Max get within DRS range. RIC was doing just as he felt was required as he likely believed he would get the option to stop first on a 2-stop strategy (being lead driver and all).

Comparing the in-lap times (and out-laps for that matter) between RIC and VES, it is interesting to note that RIC was significantly quicker than VES on both of the first 2 stops.

Agree with others that VES drove very well for the win, but it relied on others making tactical errors. I have a feeling that RIC could be on the top step in Monaco, where qualifying counts for so much. Hopefully Renault can push forward their upgrade.
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Re: Ricciardo Vs Verstappen - Who will come out on top?

Post by Zoue »

purchville wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Randine wrote:
F1Oz wrote:Have to say that a single faster out lap is not evidence that Verstappen was doing better than Dan.

Unless there was a specific need to do the faster out lap, the driver actually risks reducing the life and effectiveness of the tyres and so driving smoothly and bringing the tyres in is actually better driving.

There is a reason why DR consistently makes his tyres last better - and I submit, that out lap is more likely evidence of that rather than evidence that Verstappen was better in Spain.

When needed, Dan was able to stretch out against Verstappen - and given he had track position, I think it's fair to say that Dan should be given the nod on better driving on the day - while Max drove well (and better than I expected) but got lucky. The reality is that had the Mercs been in the lead, you wonder whether the same tactics would have been used?
James Allen did an interesting article on the strategy of the race.
http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2016/05/s ... r-ferrari/
He seems to think they put Ric under a bus.
That's quite damning, Red Bull threw Ricciardo under the bus.
Considering the headline is "who made the bigger mistake," I don't see how that translates into them saying they threw Ric under the bus. No-one's denying they screwed up, but that's a different thing
For those who want to read beyond the headline, from the article:
"The obvious thing to do in Barcelona was to ask Verstappen to drop back three seconds behind Ricciardo, dropping Vettel out of range of undercutting the Australian. From there Ricciardo would be certain to win the race and a team victory would be secure. Verstappen would probably have finished third in that scenario.

But they either didn’t want to ask Verstappen to do that or didn’t want to prioritise Ricciardo for the win. Perhaps a supremely strong result for Verstappen on his Red Bull debut would justify dropping Daniil Kvyat in favour of the Dutchman."


Note also that RIC started the race on a 2-stop strategy and was surprised when it got changed mid-race. In my opinion RIC had the race well under control, although the Ferraris showed better race pace that the Red Bulls after the first stops. Max closed the gap to RIC during the second stint and then RIC began to extend again before his second stop, suggesting that he had pace in hand. Rarely did Max get within DRS range. RIC was doing just as he felt was required as he likely believed he would get the option to stop first on a 2-stop strategy (being lead driver and all).

Comparing the in-lap times (and out-laps for that matter) between RIC and VES, it is interesting to note that RIC was significantly quicker than VES on both of the first 2 stops.

Agree with others that VES drove very well for the win, but it relied on others making tactical errors. I have a feeling that RIC could be on the top step in Monaco, where qualifying counts for so much. Hopefully Renault can push forward their upgrade.
It's one throw away line but it's practically hidden away. If they really thought that to be the case they'd have made a much bigger deal out of it but the article really just calls it a mistake. And again it's so easy with hindsight. Neither the commentators nor the live feed said they were making a mistake when Ricciardo pitted. They still thought he would win and they thought the others' tyres would give out by the end

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slide
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Re: Ricciardo Vs Verstappen - Who will come out on top?

Post by slide »

the young upstart will have some seriously good races , but experience will shine tru and Riccardo will have a big grin at the years end, as he leaves for Ferrari, lol, after vettel personly recommends Ferrari to take riccardo

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Re: Ricciardo Vs Verstappen - Who will come out on top?

Post by UnlikeUday »

I'm assuming this was done on purpose.

Letting Verstappen win on his debut. This would catch more eyeballs than Ricciardo winning, which is why they screwed his race with a 3 stop call.

Also does this throw any clue that maybe Ricciardo would be joining Ferrari in 2017?
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Re: Ricciardo Vs Verstappen - Who will come out on top?

Post by Jezza13 »

UnlikeUday wrote:I'm assuming this was done on purpose.

Letting Verstappen win on his debut. This would catch more eyeballs than Ricciardo winning, which is why they screwed his race with a 3 stop call.

Also does this throw any clue that maybe Ricciardo would be joining Ferrari in 2017?
With the improvements in the Renault engine and aero changes due next year, I wouldn't mind a bet that RB are going to have a seriously good car in 2017.

RB seem to be on the way back up whereas Ferrari look to have remained static or even gone backwards.

Based on that, not sure what benefit RIC would get out of joining Ferrari next year.
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Re: Ricciardo Vs Verstappen - Who will come out on top?

Post by rivf1 »

UnlikeUday wrote:I'm assuming this was done on purpose.

Letting Verstappen win on his debut. This would catch more eyeballs than Ricciardo winning, which is why they screwed his race with a 3 stop call.

Also does this throw any clue that maybe Ricciardo would be joining Ferrari in 2017?
While i have my tin foil hat on too, RBR have made it pretty clear RIC is under contract to the end of 2017 and that is that. The whole tin foil hat theory will be confirmed or debunked if the reports are true that Renault are supplying only 1 upgraded engine per team for monaco.

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Re: Ricciardo Vs Verstappen - Who will come out on top?

Post by infi24r »

rivf1 wrote:
UnlikeUday wrote:I'm assuming this was done on purpose.

Letting Verstappen win on his debut. This would catch more eyeballs than Ricciardo winning, which is why they screwed his race with a 3 stop call.

Also does this throw any clue that maybe Ricciardo would be joining Ferrari in 2017?
While i have my tin foil hat on too, RBR have made it pretty clear RIC is under contract to the end of 2017 and that is that. The whole tin foil hat theory will be confirmed or debunked if the reports are true that Renault are supplying only 1 upgraded engine per team for monaco.
Even giving him that engine doesn't affect the outcome of Verstappen's win. That was a unique opportunity for them and they took it.

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Re: Ricciardo Vs Verstappen - Who will come out on top?

Post by iano »

Zoue wrote:
iano wrote:From this race it is hard to choose who will come out on top.

But the team will prefer Verstappen to win, it is only logical.

The whole reason to be in the event is for publicity, and Verstappen winning generates the most publicity.

Will this give an extra edge to Verstappen? Time will tell. So much of performance is psychological. I believe the main reason for the Sainz - Kvyat gap in this race was psychological too.
A 1-2 finish would generate both publicity AND points. I'm pretty confident Red Bull would prefer that combination.
I would still argue that the win to Verstappen, which made a world record, generated more publicity than a Red Bull 1-2 with Ricciardo winning would have generated. I am not suggesting they deliberately engineered that result, or that they will engineer any specific results in future. Just saying Verstappen winning will generate the most PR value.

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Re: Ricciardo Vs Verstappen - Who will come out on top?

Post by Zoue »

iano wrote:
Zoue wrote:
iano wrote:From this race it is hard to choose who will come out on top.

But the team will prefer Verstappen to win, it is only logical.

The whole reason to be in the event is for publicity, and Verstappen winning generates the most publicity.

Will this give an extra edge to Verstappen? Time will tell. So much of performance is psychological. I believe the main reason for the Sainz - Kvyat gap in this race was psychological too.
A 1-2 finish would generate both publicity AND points. I'm pretty confident Red Bull would prefer that combination.
I would still argue that the win to Verstappen, which made a world record, generated more publicity than a Red Bull 1-2 with Ricciardo winning would have generated. I am not suggesting they deliberately engineered that result, or that they will engineer any specific results in future. Just saying Verstappen winning will generate the most PR value.
Even 2nd would have been a big result. While I agree Red Bull would be happy with the publicity, I don't see them wanting to throw away points for that. The WCC position would be more important

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Re: Ricciardo Vs Verstappen - Who will come out on top?

Post by slide »

I new Renault higher power engine to each Renault team for monaco-I engine for each team and each team has 2 drivers - word is driver with the most points gets it and its half a second a lap quicker

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Re: Ricciardo Vs Verstappen - Who will come out on top?

Post by purchville »

slide wrote:I new Renault higher power engine to each Renault team for monaco-I engine for each team and each team has 2 drivers - word is driver with the most points gets it and its half a second a lap quicker
Half a second quicker, but on which track? Barcelona? Or the long lap at Spa? The so called 0.5 seconds comes from a combination of increased power and improved driveability. The nature of the Monaco circuit negates the power aspect, so I think the new engine will be worth less than that at its debut.
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Re: Ricciardo Vs Verstappen - Who will come out on top?

Post by purchville »

p.s. Not to mention the unusual engine mapping that will have to be properly implemented to achieve a good result at Monaco.
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Re: Ricciardo Vs Verstappen - Who will come out on top?

Post by iano »

Zoue wrote:
iano wrote:
Zoue wrote:
iano wrote:From this race it is hard to choose who will come out on top.

But the team will prefer Verstappen to win, it is only logical.

The whole reason to be in the event is for publicity, and Verstappen winning generates the most publicity.

Will this give an extra edge to Verstappen? Time will tell. So much of performance is psychological. I believe the main reason for the Sainz - Kvyat gap in this race was psychological too.
A 1-2 finish would generate both publicity AND points. I'm pretty confident Red Bull would prefer that combination.
I would still argue that the win to Verstappen, which made a world record, generated more publicity than a Red Bull 1-2 with Ricciardo winning would have generated. I am not suggesting they deliberately engineered that result, or that they will engineer any specific results in future. Just saying Verstappen winning will generate the most PR value.
Even 2nd would have been a big result. While I agree Red Bull would be happy with the publicity, I don't see them wanting to throw away points for that. The WCC position would be more important
Then I think we are simply in agreement. I said the publicity would make them happy with how things turned out and it would have been more publicity than for a 1-2. I did not suggest they did it deliberately.
More questionable about what I said was the 'they'. Reality is that 'Red Bull' is a collection of people with independent thoughts and opinions. The 'they' may well be some people, but others in the team would have been disappointed that Ricciardo missed out on being the recipient of the win available with Mercedes being out of the race through no fault of Ricciardo. Questions is, who within the team holds which feeling.

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Re: Ricciardo Vs Verstappen - Who will come out on top?

Post by F1Oz »

Certainly close in PF1 - but can't see who had what tyre, don't know about traffic, how many laps driven etc - so very hard to tell. I'd bet that MV is getting information from DR's set up etc though - and that makes things easier.

As Purchville said - hard to see much difference in performance from the old/new engines in Monaco - but then again, fractions of a second might count for track position and we all know that's king there.

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Re: Ricciardo Vs Verstappen - Who will come out on top?

Post by Zoue »

F1Oz wrote:Certainly close in PF1 - but can't see who had what tyre, don't know about traffic, how many laps driven etc - so very hard to tell. I'd bet that MV is getting information from DR's set up etc though - and that makes things easier.

As Purchville said - hard to see much difference in performance from the old/new engines in Monaco - but then again, fractions of a second might count for track position and we all know that's king there.
According to Autosport the new engine might be worth around 0.2s a lap here

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Re: Ricciardo Vs Verstappen - Who will come out on top?

Post by F1Oz »

thanks Zoue - good to know

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Re: Ricciardo Vs Verstappen - Who will come out on top?

Post by oz_karter »

Quite a difference in P2 at Monaco. There isn't 1 second advantage in the engine update.

Dan really looks "on it" this weekend.

He looked a bit off his usual pace in Spain IMO.

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Re: Ricciardo Vs Verstappen - Who will come out on top?

Post by Covalent »

oz_karter wrote:Quite a difference in P2 at Monaco. There isn't 1 second advantage in the engine update.

Dan really looks "on it" this weekend.

He looked a bit off his usual pace in Spain IMO.
Had it been the other way around the comment would probably have been "it's only practice and they're doing different things" at best.

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Re: Ricciardo Vs Verstappen - Who will come out on top?

Post by Exediron »

Covalent wrote:
oz_karter wrote:Quite a difference in P2 at Monaco. There isn't 1 second advantage in the engine update.

Dan really looks "on it" this weekend.

He looked a bit off his usual pace in Spain IMO.
Had it been the other way around the comment would probably have been "it's only practice and they're doing different things" at best.
Possibly. But if the actual result seems to support what should be the expected result, it's only natural to give it more credence than if it doesn't. If Max was faster without the upgraded engine, many people would assume it's not representative. If Vettel was slower than Raikkonen (which he was) most people assume it's not the real pace, because it doesn't fit with the usual facts; if it's the other way around, it's instantly more acceptable because it's more likely.

You may be accusing him of pro-Ricciardo bias, and that's not necessarily false - but frankly, the amount of pro-Verstappen bias you've been showing over the last week somewhat weakens your position.
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Re: Ricciardo Vs Verstappen - Who will come out on top?

Post by mds »

The difference should not be so surprising - in Monaco you need huge levels of confidence, more so than elsewhere. To have confidence, you should know the car fully.

Large difference although I think it will be quite a bit closer than a second in qualifying.
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Re: Ricciardo Vs Verstappen - Who will come out on top?

Post by Covalent »

Exediron wrote:the amount of pro-Verstappen bias you've been showing over the last week somewhat weakens your position.
Care to give an example? I'm not even a fan so I find it hard to believe I've shown so much bias it would weaken my position... Whatever that means in this context.

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Re: Ricciardo Vs Verstappen - Who will come out on top?

Post by iano »

I thought the difference was surprising. Not just the difference between the two Red Bulls, but the difference between Ricciardo and all others. Could be the the super softs are part of the equation. Although only one session, still surprising.

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Re: Ricciardo Vs Verstappen - Who will come out on top?

Post by Exediron »

Covalent wrote:
Exediron wrote:the amount of pro-Verstappen bias you've been showing over the last week somewhat weakens your position.
Care to give an example? I'm not even a fan so I find it hard to believe I've shown so much bias it would weaken my position... Whatever that means in this context.
Alright, if you just want one example, here:
Covalent wrote:There was only one single lap this weekend that Ricciardo without a question seemed faster (the one in Q3), so based on the remaining laps and considering the extraordinary circumstances I'm leaning towards Verstappen, especially if we only take into consideration the races they've actually been teammates.
It's ridiculous to suggest only taking the races where two drivers have been teammates into consideration when that amounts to a single race, setting aside the questionable assertion that there was only a single lap where Ricciardo was faster.

While I'm at it though, here are a few others:
Covalent wrote:Yawn. After only one race I'm already tired of you silly tin foil hat people.
Covalent wrote:The excuses and fantasy tales in this thread are hilarious.
Covalent wrote:Max was faster while they were on the same strategy.
Covalent wrote:Is it unfair to assume we have 7 Australians on the forum?
All of these were directed at people arguing that either Max lucked into the win or bringing up the possibility of RBR favoring Verstappen over Ricciardo. I couldn't find a single post of yours arguing against anyone saying Max was faster than Ricciardo (even despite the highly limited data from the weekend) or that he would come out ahead in the RBR team battle.

Whether you're a fan or not, if you're arguing frequently against any suggestion that Ricciardo is quicker and never against any suggestion that Max is, it strikes me as biased. But perhaps it's just anti-Ricciardo bias, not pro-Verstappen.
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Re: Ricciardo Vs Verstappen - Who will come out on top?

Post by Zoue »

To be fair I hardly think you can call arguing against wholly unfounded accusations of favouritism bias. A bias suggest a prejudicial viewpoint and I don't think dismissing spurious claims really qualifies.

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Re: Ricciardo Vs Verstappen - Who will come out on top?

Post by iano »

People can have a position on a specific debate without having a favouritism towards or against specific drivers. Arguing that a single performance is or isn't over hyped need not show a bias towards or against that driver.

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Re: Ricciardo Vs Verstappen - Who will come out on top?

Post by StanB123 »

iano wrote:I thought the difference was surprising. Not just the difference between the two Red Bulls, but the difference between Ricciardo and all others. Could be the the super softs are part of the equation. Although only one session, still surprising.
It might also have to do with the risk one's willing to take in a practice session.

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Re: Ricciardo Vs Verstappen - Who will come out on top?

Post by Covalent »

Exediron wrote:
Covalent wrote:
Exediron wrote:the amount of pro-Verstappen bias you've been showing over the last week somewhat weakens your position.
Care to give an example? I'm not even a fan so I find it hard to believe I've shown so much bias it would weaken my position... Whatever that means in this context.
Alright, if you just want one example, here:
Covalent wrote:There was only one single lap this weekend that Ricciardo without a question seemed faster (the one in Q3), so based on the remaining laps and considering the extraordinary circumstances I'm leaning towards Verstappen, especially if we only take into consideration the races they've actually been teammates.
It's ridiculous to suggest only taking the races where two drivers have been teammates into consideration when that amounts to a single race, setting aside the questionable assertion that there was only a single lap where Ricciardo was faster.

While I'm at it though, here are a few others:
Covalent wrote:Yawn. After only one race I'm already tired of you silly tin foil hat people.
Covalent wrote:The excuses and fantasy tales in this thread are hilarious.
Covalent wrote:Max was faster while they were on the same strategy.
Covalent wrote:Is it unfair to assume we have 7 Australians on the forum?
All of these were directed at people arguing that either Max lucked into the win or bringing up the possibility of RBR favoring Verstappen over Ricciardo. I couldn't find a single post of yours arguing against anyone saying Max was faster than Ricciardo (even despite the highly limited data from the weekend) or that he would come out ahead in the RBR team battle.

Whether you're a fan or not, if you're arguing frequently against any suggestion that Ricciardo is quicker and never against any suggestion that Max is, it strikes me as biased. But perhaps it's just anti-Ricciardo bias, not pro-Verstappen.
Replace your accusation of pro-Verstappen bias with anti-fanboyism bias and your accusation is warranted. Zoue was spot on.

stebol
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Re: Ricciardo Vs Verstappen - Who will come out on top?

Post by stebol »

Vestappen hit the wall in Monaco not once, not twice but THREE TIMES. Not a good look for the wonder kid.

I found it quite ironic in the pre Monico comments by Verstappen on the RB twitter account he said "The first target: stay out of the walls!".

Compare that to Riccardo's main quote an the same time: "It brings the best from you."

Knuppel1983
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View from a Dutch F1-fan

Post by Knuppel1983 »

Let me introduce myself. I'm a Dutch F1-viewer who has always been a big fan of Hamilton. Over the years I think Lewis' is one of the, maybe the best F1-driver; but I've come to dislike him as a person. Wearing his crazy sunglasses, talking like he's 50 years old and has seen it all.

Luckely for this Dutch F1-fan, there was Max. Finally a Dutch driver makes his entrance in F1. Likeable, full of confidence but not cocky, and not making excuses when things don't go as planned. Drives fast, consistently, manages his tires very well and is always eager to overtake. Little can I understand all the hostility against Max.
I would like to give my (non-UK) view on recent events.

Monaco:
Max and Monaco is clearly not a happy mariage. Second time he's raced here, and both times he did not see the checkered flag. This time I think Max was to eager to perform. His Q1 lap looked like he was going for pole, given the RB's pace completely unnecessairy. He admitted steering in too hard, not expecting so much grip. Before the Sunday race Christian Horner put some extra pressure on his shoulders saying he expected something special from Max. Up until round 35 he was doing just that, literally racing forward. Max proved overtaking in Monaco is not impossible. Last year also, sneaking behind Vettel in blue flag conditions; genius. Can we blame him for hitting the wall 3 times in 1 weekend, maybe. On Sunday conditions where brutally hard. Having to overtake 21 cars in a RB he's only driven for 1 weekend, on a wet Monaco track, maybe to much to ask. Yes he could have driven more carefully and made it till the end. But careful doesn't get you in front, and Max wants to win.

Conspirency theories mentioning Red Bull was aiming to put Max on the podium, whilst Ricciardo started from pole, sound pretty ridiculous to me. Yes he was denied the win by his team, but if the last minute tyre change worked out well we would all be talking about another RB masterstroke. (plus if Lewis hadn't cut the chicane he would have been behind Ricciardo)

Barcelona:
Showing his true potential. Winning your first GP, in a car you've driven just 90 minutes, is pretty damn impressive. Kimi was all over the place, but Max managed his tyres and knew where on the track he needed to push. Should Ricciardo have won, maybe. In a Dutch interview Max explained Ricciardo was originally also on 2-stop strategy, but couldn't manage his tyres, which resulted in the extra stop.

RB driver change:
Too bad for Kvyat. Yes Max, Jos and the manager were probably pushing hard on RB, threathning to leave RB in 2017. But can you blame them? Every driver wants to win and to win you need to be in a top-team. Kvyat gave RB the ammunition they needed. Harsh, but wake up, that's F1. Dieter doesn't spend millions to be mr. nice guy.


Say what you want, but Max is a true racer. Much like Hamilton in his early days. Every race we see Max give it all. He overtakes where others deemed impossible, he makes the move and sticks with it. He is a breath of fresh air in a sport which by many is labeled as dull. I'd rather watch Max hit the Monaco-wall 50 times because he went over the limit, than watch Sainz cruise behind Rosberg lap after lap, because he's scared to overtake. Remember it's not Max setting the bar skyhigh, the media does this for him. In every interview I see him struggle to keep his feet on the ground, whilst others crown him the next worldchampion. It's mission impossible for Max to meet all these expectations. :-|

Excuse my English for it is not my native language, and feel free to comment!

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Exediron
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Re: View from a Dutch F1-fan

Post by Exediron »

First off, welcome to the forum! :thumbup:
Knuppel1983 wrote:Say what you want, but Max is a true racer. Much like Hamilton in his early days. Every race we see Max give it all. He overtakes where others deemed impossible, he makes the move and sticks with it. He is a breath of fresh air in a sport which by many is labeled as dull. I'd rather watch Max hit the Monaco-wall 50 times because he went over the limit, than watch Sainz cruise behind Rosberg lap after lap, because he's scared to overtake. Remember it's not Max setting the bar skyhigh, the media does this for him. In every interview I see him struggle to keep his feet on the ground, whilst others crown him the next worldchampion. It's mission impossible for Max to meet all these expectations.
I think this is an important distinction. I'm by nature bothered by what I perceive as over-hyping, and my initial reaction to Max was probably quite unfair as a result. The commentators and the news sites make sure you're saturated with the hype, and sometimes they do some truly ridiculous things - before the race in Monaco Will Buxton was asking everyone if Max is the best of all time (including Max, and to his credit he seemed to find it rather awkward!). But the more interviews I've seen with Max and the more I've seen him actually speak for himself, not others speaking for him, I've actually come to realize I don't have a problem with him at all. People like Marko shouting every weekend that he's the next Senna, yes - but that's not his fault, and I don't think he's ever done it for himself.

So the source of the hostility I think is partly, as it was for me, a reaction to the way Max is presented by Red Bull and much of the world's media, and partly suspicion of the way Red Bull has historically handled some of their drivers. Kvyat fans are obviously rather annoyed, and Ricciardo fans may be justifiably a bit paranoid - although in this case I don't think it's true. I think that while Max may have justified the decision to promote him on track, he's still being promoted too heavily and too fast in other ways, in that the media seem eager to make him the only story in F1 already in his second season. But that is indeed not his fault, so it's not really fair.
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Re: View from a Dutch F1-fan

Post by pokerman »

Knuppel1983 wrote:Let me introduce myself. I'm a Dutch F1-viewer who has always been a big fan of Hamilton. Over the years I think Lewis' is one of the, maybe the best F1-driver; but I've come to dislike him as a person. Wearing his crazy sunglasses, talking like he's 50 years old and has seen it all.

Luckely for this Dutch F1-fan, there was Max. Finally a Dutch driver makes his entrance in F1. Likeable, full of confidence but not cocky, and not making excuses when things don't go as planned. Drives fast, consistently, manages his tires very well and is always eager to overtake. Little can I understand all the hostility against Max.
I would like to give my (non-UK) view on recent events.

Monaco:
Max and Monaco is clearly not a happy mariage. Second time he's raced here, and both times he did not see the checkered flag. This time I think Max was to eager to perform. His Q1 lap looked like he was going for pole, given the RB's pace completely unnecessairy. He admitted steering in too hard, not expecting so much grip. Before the Sunday race Christian Horner put some extra pressure on his shoulders saying he expected something special from Max. Up until round 35 he was doing just that, literally racing forward. Max proved overtaking in Monaco is not impossible. Last year also, sneaking behind Vettel in blue flag conditions; genius. Can we blame him for hitting the wall 3 times in 1 weekend, maybe. On Sunday conditions where brutally hard. Having to overtake 21 cars in a RB he's only driven for 1 weekend, on a wet Monaco track, maybe to much to ask. Yes he could have driven more carefully and made it till the end. But careful doesn't get you in front, and Max wants to win.

Conspirency theories mentioning Red Bull was aiming to put Max on the podium, whilst Ricciardo started from pole, sound pretty ridiculous to me. Yes he was denied the win by his team, but if the last minute tyre change worked out well we would all be talking about another RB masterstroke. (plus if Lewis hadn't cut the chicane he would have been behind Ricciardo)

Barcelona:
Showing his true potential. Winning your first GP, in a car you've driven just 90 minutes, is pretty damn impressive. Kimi was all over the place, but Max managed his tyres and knew where on the track he needed to push. Should Ricciardo have won, maybe. In a Dutch interview Max explained Ricciardo was originally also on 2-stop strategy, but couldn't manage his tyres, which resulted in the extra stop.

RB driver change:
Too bad for Kvyat. Yes Max, Jos and the manager were probably pushing hard on RB, threathning to leave RB in 2017. But can you blame them? Every driver wants to win and to win you need to be in a top-team. Kvyat gave RB the ammunition they needed. Harsh, but wake up, that's F1. Dieter doesn't spend millions to be mr. nice guy.


Say what you want, but Max is a true racer. Much like Hamilton in his early days. Every race we see Max give it all. He overtakes where others deemed impossible, he makes the move and sticks with it. He is a breath of fresh air in a sport which by many is labeled as dull. I'd rather watch Max hit the Monaco-wall 50 times because he went over the limit, than watch Sainz cruise behind Rosberg lap after lap, because he's scared to overtake. Remember it's not Max setting the bar skyhigh, the media does this for him. In every interview I see him struggle to keep his feet on the ground, whilst others crown him the next worldchampion. It's mission impossible for Max to meet all these expectations. :-|

Excuse my English for it is not my native language, and feel free to comment!
The only thing I would like to say is that if Max was on a mission to pass 21 cars and win the race then no surprise to see him in the wall.
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Invade
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Re: Ricciardo Vs Verstappen - Who will come out on top?

Post by Invade »

Hamilton's complacency and fondness for affectations has been clear to see ever since he won title number three, and he's only just starting to wake up this season, and it might cost him. Nice shades, bro..........

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Re: View from a Dutch F1-fan

Post by mds »

pokerman wrote: The only thing I would like to say is that if Max was on a mission to pass 21 cars and win the race then no surprise to see him in the wall.
The mission would have been to pass as many as possible. I think that would hold true for any racing driver.
Note that he did not end up in the wall because he tried to do a very risky overtaking manoeuvre, or something like that. It was a minor lock-up, a brief moment, that made him touch the wet part of the track, which directly meant a loss of grip, and his race was over in an instant.
Go Vandoorne :( - Verstappen - Vettel!

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Re: Ricciardo Vs Verstappen - Who will come out on top?

Post by Teddy007 »

At the moment the comparisons are not fair - regardless of opinion.

RBR will look at the two races so far and see they have screwed up twice for Ric. They will see one great result for Max and one huge mistake as well.

At the end of the day, they know in their minds that it was most likely going to be 2-0 for Ric on race results through merit and not 1-1.

Max though has done better than expected in one race but well maybe not so good in the 2nd.

RBR will have all the information available and they have admitted their mistakes. When you are a team fighting for points not a driver fighting for the championship - they will take what matters in to their assessment. That's results but also reasoning on those results (why driver A beat driver B). RBR will see that they could very well have a great driver pairing.

On their side though, they don't want to lose Max and I think they know not to lose Ric either. They need to stop the mistakes otherwise Ric may end leaving and I am sure he will have offers.

F1Oz
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Re: Ricciardo Vs Verstappen - Who will come out on top?

Post by F1Oz »

Teddy I agree - as others have posted elsewhere, I think RBR have a high potential to have one of the best cars next year (but we all know this can be a lottery) - but DR only has a one year option - and given he is on a low salary (relative to Merc, Ferrari, McLaren) then buying that out would not be hard. It's also not clear what the performance clauses are that might favour DR given what has happened in the last few races.

Still, the only team that I suspect might tempt DR, if they offered (again as others have said) would be Merc

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