Ricciardo Vs Verstappen - Who will come out on top?

froze · Post by **froze** » Sun May 15, 2016 3:39 pm

Ok, today's race result basically calls for this.

With Daniel ahead only by 10 points after 5 rounds and Max demonstrating incredible ability on his RBR debut, the game is definitely on. Who do you think will eventually come out on top, after 2016 season?

flyboy10 · Post by **flyboy10** » Sun May 15, 2016 3:42 pm

Verstappen is the golden boy so Herr Marko will do everything in his power to help Max to beat Dan

chetan_rao · Post by **chetan_rao** » Sun May 15, 2016 3:46 pm

While Max's victory is well-deserved, Dan wasn't exactly beaten entirely on merit. Was faster on-track, then moved to a strategy that ultimately turned out slower in the end.

Max is definitely one for the future, but Dan is no mug.

Too early to judge based on one race with multiple extenuating circumstances.

mds · Post by **mds** » Sun May 15, 2016 3:46 pm

flyboy10 wrote:Verstappen is the golden boy so Herr Marko will do everything in his power to help Max to beat Dan

Herr Marko had more to do with Ricciardo's junior career than with Verstappens.

Anyway, I think Ricciardo will be on top this year, although Verstappens race pace was up there with Ricciardo's and that bodes pretty well.

Next year, I have no idea.

mds · Post by **mds** » Sun May 15, 2016 3:48 pm

chetan_rao wrote:While Max's victory is well-deserved, Dan wasn't exactly beaten on merit. Was faster on-track, then moved to a strategy that ultimately turned out slower in the end.

How was Ricciardo faster on track? Max was glued on his behind and in the second stint closed up a gap of four seconds to under one second.

Max was every bit as fast as Ricciardo on same tires.

Lotus49 · Post by **Lotus49** » Sun May 15, 2016 3:49 pm

Still think Dan will will come out on top in the battle this year but as of next year game on, Max is legit WDC material. I think it will be very very close between them.

rivf1 · Post by **rivf1** » Sun May 15, 2016 3:50 pm

Shouldn't be long before they are swapping parts from Dan's car to help max when needed, not like they ever done that before.

chetan_rao · Post by **chetan_rao** » Sun May 15, 2016 3:52 pm

mds wrote:
chetan_rao wrote:While Max's victory is well-deserved, Dan wasn't exactly beaten on merit. Was faster on-track, then moved to a strategy that ultimately turned out slower in the end.
How was Ricciardo faster on track? Max was glued on his behind and in the second stint closed up a gap of four seconds to under one second.

Max was every bit as fast as Ricciardo on same tires.

The race isn't about ONE stint, is it? Plus closing a gap means nothing if one can't pass, look at Kimi Vs. Max. Passing another identical car is far from a given even if one's faster in a particular set of circumstances.

Like I said, taking nothing away from Max (took his chance when it showed up), but Dan would've done much better with a two-stopper himself. Red Bull thought otherwise for reasons best known to them, but Dan lost out on a chance to win because of it.

Warheart01 · Post by **Warheart01** » Sun May 15, 2016 3:52 pm

Today isn't that good of an indicator. It was Ricciardos race to win had RBR given him the better strategy (which they probably thought they did).
Verstappen was very impressive this weekend though and proved that he is the real deal, especially as it was the first race with the team.
I still want to believe that Ricciardo is that one bit better but this fight will be close.

mds · Post by **mds** » Sun May 15, 2016 3:56 pm

chetan_rao wrote:
mds wrote:
chetan_rao wrote:While Max's victory is well-deserved, Dan wasn't exactly beaten on merit. Was faster on-track, then moved to a strategy that ultimately turned out slower in the end.
How was Ricciardo faster on track? Max was glued on his behind and in the second stint closed up a gap of four seconds to under one second.

Max was every bit as fast as Ricciardo on same tires.
The race isn't about ONE stint, was it? Plus closing a gap means nothing if one can't pass, look at Kimi Vs. Max. Passing another identical car is far from a given even if one's faster in a particular set of circumstances.

I'm comparing them for speed in the first two stints because those were the only stints they were on equal tires.

As for passing: Verstappen actually passed Vettel, unlike Ricciardo.

Mr-E · Post by **Mr-E** » Sun May 15, 2016 4:09 pm

In the long run, don't know. As of now Ricciardo is a better and more mature driver. But who knows.. With the help of dad which seems to have almost controll of RBR and dr Marko anything can happen.

nixxxon · Post by **nixxxon** » Sun May 15, 2016 4:10 pm

Too early to draw a conclusion.
We need some more races to see if Max is really the real deal or today was a bit of a fluke.

Mercedes-Benz · Post by **Mercedes-Benz** » Sun May 15, 2016 4:13 pm

Ricciardo for sure. He must be disappointed with today's result. He should have won or at the worst podium. It is very unlikely that both Mercedes will have DNF again

rivf1 · Post by **rivf1** » Sun May 15, 2016 4:31 pm

mds wrote:
As for passing: Verstappen actually passed Vettel, unlike Ricciardo.

What? I don't remember seeing that

jrwb6e · Post by **jrwb6e** » Sun May 15, 2016 4:43 pm

rivf1 wrote:
mds wrote:
As for passing: Verstappen actually passed Vettel, unlike Ricciardo.
What? I don't remember seeing that

He's talking at the start when all the cars were bunched. The weak argument says it all.

mds · Post by **mds** » Sun May 15, 2016 4:45 pm

rivf1 wrote:
mds wrote:
As for passing: Verstappen actually passed Vettel, unlike Ricciardo.
What? I don't remember seeing that

Look at the first lap again. Vettel moved in front after the start but Verstappen repassed on the outside of T3.

mds · Post by **mds** » Sun May 15, 2016 4:46 pm

jrwb6e wrote:
rivf1 wrote:
mds wrote:
As for passing: Verstappen actually passed Vettel, unlike Ricciardo.
What? I don't remember seeing that
He's talking at the start when all the cars were bunched. The weak argument says it all.

What's weak about it? He passed in a clean and good manoeuvre.

Zoue · Post by **Zoue** » Sun May 15, 2016 4:48 pm

rivf1 wrote:Shouldn't be long before they are swapping parts from Dan's car to help max when needed, not like they ever done that before.

oh dear

Paolo_Lasardi · Post by **Paolo_Lasardi** » Sun May 15, 2016 4:49 pm

I think they will be close in terms of speed. If luck keeps siding with Verstappen and if Ricciardo continue his string of bad luck, then Verstappen will come out on top.

rivf1 · Post by **rivf1** » Sun May 15, 2016 4:50 pm

Zoue wrote:
rivf1 wrote:Shouldn't be long before they are swapping parts from Dan's car to help max when needed, not like they ever done that before.
oh dear

What is oh dear about it? Do you deny they ever did that?

jrwb6e · Post by **jrwb6e** » Sun May 15, 2016 4:56 pm

mds wrote:What's weak about it? He passed in a clean and good manoeuvre.

Comparing apples and oranges is weak. Ricciardo was in Vettel's dirty air and Vettel had clean air. The passing maneuver was at the start with dirty air all around.

moby · Post by **moby** » Sun May 15, 2016 4:58 pm

Before today I would have put money on it being Ric. However, I went for Max, because he has done the opposite of everything else I expected

Zoue · Post by **Zoue** » Sun May 15, 2016 4:59 pm

rivf1 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
rivf1 wrote:Shouldn't be long before they are swapping parts from Dan's car to help max when needed, not like they ever done that before.
oh dear
What is oh dear about it? Do you deny they ever did that?

My standard response to conspiracy theories

mds · Post by **mds** » Sun May 15, 2016 5:02 pm

jrwb6e wrote:
mds wrote:What's weak about it? He passed in a clean and good manoeuvre.
Comparing apples and oranges is weak. Ricciardo was in Vettel's dirty air and Vettel had clean air. The passing maneuver was at the start with dirty air all around.

They were in single file already by the time Verstappen passed.
Other than that, he did pass, so I don't know why you are trying to take that away from Verstappen. Fact is and remains that he was every bit as fast as Ricciardo for the time we could compare them.

Lots of sour grapes today. A shame.

slide · Post by **slide** » Sun May 15, 2016 5:19 pm

well max had a big smile at the end and Riccardo was not quite his happy self , and I think the race worried him ever so slightly for the future

the swop we saw has been so successful that its easy to see it will be happening a lot more , and the future of F1 drivers will be less secure in the future after this , and expect to see fewer "middle of the grid and back of the grid" drivers make full seasons

its now the days of have a bad race and you could be out

Atomicunderware · Post by **Atomicunderware** » Sun May 15, 2016 5:25 pm

slide wrote:well max had a big smile at the end and Riccardo was not quite his happy self , and I think the race worried him ever so slightly for the future

the swop we saw has been so successful that its easy to see it will be happening a lot more , and the future of F1 drivers will be less secure in the future after this , and expect to see fewer "middle of the grid and back of the grid" drivers make full seasons

its now the days of have a bad race and you could be out

The funny thing is though, it could just as easily have been Kvyat winning today had the swap not happened, but pundits and fans wont look at it like that. Max qualified 4 tenths down on Ric, and was very lucky to be on the same row as his team-mate - often such a gap will see you further back. Kvyat is capable of a similar quali performance, and all things being equal could have been in Max's position today...but that's sport, right place, right time, and you're the next big thing. Can't help but feel for Ric also, no matter what he does this year it's not quite working out for him, despite putting in generally excellent performances.

AravJ · Post by **AravJ** » Sun May 15, 2016 6:01 pm

I think it's very close but Max will take it. They are both good overtakers. I think Dan will be the better qualifier. Max seems faster marginally in the race. Max seems to have alot more confidence. Coming from inferior STR chasis will also give him more confidence in finding limits.
I think Dan also had that advantage when he joined RBR.

Paolo_Lasardi · Post by **Paolo_Lasardi** » Sun May 15, 2016 6:36 pm

Atomicunderware wrote:
slide wrote:well max had a big smile at the end and Riccardo was not quite his happy self , and I think the race worried him ever so slightly for the future

the swop we saw has been so successful that its easy to see it will be happening a lot more , and the future of F1 drivers will be less secure in the future after this , and expect to see fewer "middle of the grid and back of the grid" drivers make full seasons

its now the days of have a bad race and you could be out
The funny thing is though, it could just as easily have been Kvyat winning today had the swap not happened, but pundits and fans wont look at it like that. Max qualified 4 tenths down on Ric, and was very lucky to be on the same row as his team-mate - often such a gap will see you further back. Kvyat is capable of a similar quali performance, and all things being equal could have been in Max's position today...but that's sport, right place, right time, and you're the next big thing. Can't help but feel for Ric also, no matter what he does this year it's not quite working out for him, despite putting in generally excellent performances.

Very true.

StanB123 · Post by **StanB123** » Sun May 15, 2016 8:08 pm

Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Atomicunderware wrote:
slide wrote:well max had a big smile at the end and Riccardo was not quite his happy self , and I think the race worried him ever so slightly for the future

the swop we saw has been so successful that its easy to see it will be happening a lot more , and the future of F1 drivers will be less secure in the future after this , and expect to see fewer "middle of the grid and back of the grid" drivers make full seasons

its now the days of have a bad race and you could be out
The funny thing is though, it could just as easily have been Kvyat winning today had the swap not happened, but pundits and fans wont look at it like that. Max qualified 4 tenths down on Ric, and was very lucky to be on the same row as his team-mate - often such a gap will see you further back. Kvyat is capable of a similar quali performance, and all things being equal could have been in Max's position today...but that's sport, right place, right time, and you're the next big thing. Can't help but feel for Ric also, no matter what he does this year it's not quite working out for him, despite putting in generally excellent performances.
Very true.

Or maybe not. You cannot tell how Kvyat would have done, you can only guess because you don't have all the variables. For example: perhaps the reason they switched the drivers was because Kvyat could not get used to the characteristics of the car. Such problems could have made it very difficult to fight of Kimi Raikkonen.

It's all guessing, Max won, and probably drove a better first stint than Ricciardo like mds pointed out earlier. Even the reasons for that good stint are uncertain. Let's not make too big of a deal out of it.

Anyway: I myself voted for Ricciardo. I have high expectations of him. For this year at least.

WHoff78 · Post by **WHoff78** » Sun May 15, 2016 8:27 pm

Warheart01 wrote:Today isn't that good of an indicator. It was Ricciardos race to win had RBR given him the better strategy (which they probably thought they did).
Verstappen was very impressive this weekend though and proved that he is the real deal, especially as it was the first race with the team.
I still want to believe that Ricciardo is that one bit better but this fight will be close.

I think today is a pretty good indicator, although the result not so much agreed. Ricciardo is clearly very quick, so seems very impressive just how much Max has pushed him before strategy took over. I can see DR edging the next third of the season, with Verstappen slightly stronger of the two towards the end. This one could be a good fight though. Verstappen to edge it for me but in reality to close to call at this stage.

pendulumeffect · Post by **pendulumeffect** » Mon May 16, 2016 12:46 am

It was completely Rosberg's fault. In a rear collision it's the overtaking driver's fault but as it was a SIDE collision caused by Rosberg closing the door.

Lewis initiated his move first and then Rosberg reacts to close the door but ends up causing a side collision. You aren't allowed to do that.

Lewis was not being too aggressive. Rosberg was being too slow. He would have passed well before the corner had Rosberg left enough space.

pokerman · Post by **pokerman** » Mon May 16, 2016 12:51 am

slide wrote:well max had a big smile at the end and Riccardo was not quite his happy self , and I think the race worried him ever so slightly for the future

the swop we saw has been so successful that its easy to see it will be happening a lot more , and the future of F1 drivers will be less secure in the future after this , and expect to see fewer "middle of the grid and back of the grid" drivers make full seasons

its now the days of have a bad race and you could be out

I think that Ricciardo was just unsure about the strategy which saw him lose the race.

pokerman · Post by **pokerman** » Mon May 16, 2016 12:52 am

Atomicunderware wrote:
slide wrote:well max had a big smile at the end and Riccardo was not quite his happy self , and I think the race worried him ever so slightly for the future

the swop we saw has been so successful that its easy to see it will be happening a lot more , and the future of F1 drivers will be less secure in the future after this , and expect to see fewer "middle of the grid and back of the grid" drivers make full seasons

its now the days of have a bad race and you could be out
The funny thing is though, it could just as easily have been Kvyat winning today had the swap not happened, but pundits and fans wont look at it like that. Max qualified 4 tenths down on Ric, and was very lucky to be on the same row as his team-mate - often such a gap will see you further back. Kvyat is capable of a similar quali performance, and all things being equal could have been in Max's position today...but that's sport, right place, right time, and you're the next big thing. Can't help but feel for Ric also, no matter what he does this year it's not quite working out for him, despite putting in generally excellent performances.

Kvyat would have been a lot slower in the race

infi24r · Post by **infi24r** » Mon May 16, 2016 2:24 am

Ricciardo had the race won and they put him on the wrong strategy. Its still a bit unclear their motives behind doing this.

WHoff78 · Post by **WHoff78** » Mon May 16, 2016 4:44 am

infi24r wrote:Ricciardo had the race won and they put him on the wrong strategy. Its still a bit unclear their motives behind doing this.

Did they though, or was it just a combination of the three stop not working quite as well as planned, plus being compromised by Vettel making his 3rd stop so early for the undercut. I imagine DR would have had a much better shot at overtaking the two stoppers, than Vettel on an offset 3 stop.

Covalent · Post by **Covalent** » Mon May 16, 2016 4:54 am

There was only one single lap this weekend that Ricciardo without a question seemed faster (the one in Q3), so based on the remaining laps and considering the extraordinary circumstances I'm leaning towards Verstappen, especially if we only take into consideration the races they've actually been teammates.

infi24r · Post by **infi24r** » Mon May 16, 2016 5:05 am

Ricciardo had track position and would have gotten the undercut with each pit stop. No way was Verstappen getting by.

Covalent · Post by **Covalent** » Mon May 16, 2016 5:32 am

infi24r wrote:Ricciardo had track position and would have gotten the undercut with each pit stop. No way was Verstappen getting by.

Wrong thread?

rivf1 · Post by **rivf1** » Mon May 16, 2016 5:39 am

infi24r wrote:Ricciardo had track position and would have gotten the undercut with each pit stop. No way was Verstappen getting by.

Exactly right, there really was nothing between the top 4, dan couldn't over take vettell and raikkonen couldn't get past max. It's done and dusted now, marko has his new favourite and dan is number two from now on, so he can either deal with that or get a ride elsewhere.

Pullrod · Post by **Pullrod** » Mon May 16, 2016 5:42 am

Today race has confirmed what I have always thought about the F1 grid. There is definetely a weaker side of the grid and many drivers(I will not name them but I am sure a thread will be made about it in the next months) have set records or reached unbelievable hype thanks to that.
The stronger side is made of few drivers and not all of those are the favorite of my fellow forumers.

Regarding this battle, it is a good thing Verstappen has won today so no more "he is only 18" or "he doesn't know the car" excuse will be used in the future. Now it is in Ricciardo's hands if he thinks he can teach him a lesson. I want to believe Ricciardo will have the edge, but at the end of the day engineers can decide who wins or who loses.

I am not sure about Sainz(who has even more raw speed although poor tyre management) contract or ties with RedBull but if I was Ferrari I would have a talk with his manager.