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For me. Rosberg closed the door and it's not the first time he has done these tactics Bahrain comes to mind in 2012 I believe twice with Hamilton and alonso.

Back of the grid for rosberg for me. I'd even say that he should get a 1 race ban

wire2004 wrote:For me. Rosberg closed the door and it's not the first time he has done these tactics Bahrain comes to mind in 2012 I believe twice with Hamilton and alonso.

Back of the grid for rosberg for me. I'd even say that he should get a 1 race ban

You can't be serious - Hamilton wasn't alongside, Rosberg had all the right to select his line. Racing incident if I'm generous, Hamilton's fault if I have to pick.

Edit: Seems like the Merc bosses agree with me.

I don't think its as simple as one at fault. If I HAD to assign blame it'd be Rosberg, but neither were faultless in this.

wire2004 wrote:Back of the grid for rosberg for me. I'd even say that he should get a 1 race ban

Go way with your crap

Oh god. Can we say it was neither's fault, I'd rather they were both still racing, and I don't want to see any penalties for either?

We've seen this from Lewis before, trying to win the race on the first lap. He's gradually slipping back to his dark days.

giphy.com

Hamilton is certainly no saint and that has stuck with him since his early seasons. He has pulled some incredibly bone head moves over the years. In an interview a day or so ago more or less showing compassion for Kvyat.


Hamilton charged a corner where the line was already occupied. Simple as that.

Rosbergs fault. Hamilton was alongside so entitled to space. An easy mistake to make though so I wouldn't give Rosberg a penalty.

It'd be interesting to see how the timing of Rosberg's defensive move compares to Schumacher's much-criticised swipe at Barrichello in Hungary a few years back. I suspect they are not too far different...

So, what I'm having trouble with even feeling like it needs to be discussed is, what is it that Rosberg should have done differently? He's made a fantastic start and is leading on the first lap of the grand prix and he decides to take a very early and tight line for the right hander (because I suspect that he knows Hamilton is trying to lunge up the inside - big in his mirrors) so he shuts the door into the corner. is he supposed to just leave a gap for his title rival to go up the inside? Before anyone answers that, read the regs on when you DO have to leave a cars width. It isn't all the time! Drivers are allowed one move to defend but must leave a cars width if they then move back across the track to take the line for the corner.

Museli wrote:We've seen this from Lewis before, trying to win the race on the first lap. He's gradually slipping back to his dark days.

You can only win the race on the first lap with the Mercs. Lewis come out of the corner better and had more speed, he saw an opportunity and it went wrong whoever a fault it was. If Hamilton didn't overtake there I reckon he would of been behind all race.

flyboy10 wrote:So, what I'm having trouble with even feeling like it needs to be discussed is, what is it that Rosberg should have done differently? He's made a fantastic start and is leading on the first lap of the grand prix and he decides to take a very early and tight line for the right hander (because I suspect that he knows Hamilton is trying to lunge up the inside - big in his mirrors) so he shuts the door into the corner. is he supposed to just leave a gap for his title rival to go up the inside? Before anyone answers that, read the regs on when you DO have to leave a cars width. It isn't all the time! Drivers are allowed one move to defend but must leave a cars width if they then move back across the track to take the line for the corner.

He should have covered earlier. By the time he made the move it was to late and Hamilton was already alongside. by the time he got to the circuit edge.

Edited to add I agree it is almost impossible for Nico to judge Hamilton's closing speed so I certainly wouldn't give him a penalty.

Leading car is entitled to ONE defensive move (change of direction), and the chasing car is entitled to ONE car-width of space IF it's alongside.

Rosberg could've left more space, but Lewis wasn't anywhere near alongside to be entitled to it.

Racing incident.

While the stewards may decide this either way (post-race investigation announced), this is only going to work Nico's way in the long run. He stuck a clean pass on Lewis to take the lead, and the incident is a clear message that Nico is finally willing to back himself instead of playing the team-game. Lewis can't really complain about anything here, he's done this to Nico plenty of times when Nico was far more entitled to some space than he was here himself. Racing aggression works both ways, and trying to win the race on the first lap cost Hamilton here, more than Nico did.

Mercedes garage is the place to be right now.

P.S. Getting your front wing barely alongside the leading car's rear wheels doesn't count as getting alongside, nor does barging in with a far greater closing speed in a braking zone assuming the leading car will either give up or not close off the inside line.

mikeyg123 wrote:

flyboy10 wrote:So, what I'm having trouble with even feeling like it needs to be discussed is, what is it that Rosberg should have done differently? He's made a fantastic start and is leading on the first lap of the grand prix and he decides to take a very early and tight line for the right hander (because I suspect that he knows Hamilton is trying to lunge up the inside - big in his mirrors) so he shuts the door into the corner. is he supposed to just leave a gap for his title rival to go up the inside? Before anyone answers that, read the regs on when you DO have to leave a cars width. It isn't all the time! Drivers are allowed one move to defend but must leave a cars width if they then move back across the track to take the line for the corner.

He should have covered earlier. By the time he made the move it was to late and Hamilton was already alongside. by the time he got to the circuit edge.

I didn't see the overhead shot but I didn't feel there was any amount of "alongside" involved. They weren't in the braking zone as far as I could tell, which WOULD be a bad time to completely block [edit - or make a sudden change of direction].

mikeyg123 wrote:Rosbergs fault. Hamilton was alongside so entitled to space. An easy mistake to make though so I wouldn't give Rosberg a penalty.

Except he wasn't alongside.

Rosberg was ahead, and entitled to choose his line. Hamilton feeling entitled - not for the first time.

There seems to be a perception here that if you have a little bit of your nose alongside the rear wheel of the car in front you have won the corner.

Hamilton's fault all day long. Rosberg finally putting his foot down. And he can afford to.

Rosbergs moved from the racing line to the middle and then moved again to the inside edge once Lewis had thrown it down the inside. If you see in rosbergs cockpit you see 2 chucks at the steering wheel.

flyboy10 wrote:

mikeyg123 wrote:

flyboy10 wrote:So, what I'm having trouble with even feeling like it needs to be discussed is, what is it that Rosberg should have done differently? He's made a fantastic start and is leading on the first lap of the grand prix and he decides to take a very early and tight line for the right hander (because I suspect that he knows Hamilton is trying to lunge up the inside - big in his mirrors) so he shuts the door into the corner. is he supposed to just leave a gap for his title rival to go up the inside? Before anyone answers that, read the regs on when you DO have to leave a cars width. It isn't all the time! Drivers are allowed one move to defend but must leave a cars width if they then move back across the track to take the line for the corner.

He should have covered earlier. By the time he made the move it was to late and Hamilton was already alongside. by the time he got to the circuit edge.

I didn't see the overhead shot but I didn't feel there was any amount of "alongside" involved. They weren't in the braking zone as far as I could tell, which WOULD be a bad time to completely block.

At the point Hamilton went on the grass their wheels were alongside each other, and with a significant speed differential in Hamilton's favour.

Beschy wrote:There seems to be a perception here that if you have a little bit of your nose alongside the rear wheel of the car in front you have won the corner.

Hamilton's fault all day long. Rosberg finally putting his foot down. And he can afford to.

EXACTLY this.

So many people here commenting Hamilton is alongside - wha..? How? Makes me wonder if they're even watching the same race.

A.J. wrote:

Beschy wrote:There seems to be a perception here that if you have a little bit of your nose alongside the rear wheel of the car in front you have won the corner.

Hamilton's fault all day long. Rosberg finally putting his foot down. And he can afford to.

EXACTLY this.

So many people here commenting Hamilton is alongside - wha..? How? Makes me wonder if they're even watching the same race.

Amen!

Both made mistakes being very aggressive. Regardless whose fault was it, Lewis lost more, because he has now less races to reduce the gap to Rosberg in WDC.

I think a question that always comes up in these situations and which needs asking again is, "Would the stewards' decision/view be different if this was not between teammates?"

Hamilton took a much better racing line through turn 3 the speed differential was clear to see.
Hamilton was entitled to go for the inside line but Rosberg did not cover the inside line early (as per regulations) but instead blocked it off as more of a reaction once Hamilton committed to taking it.
It was very aggressive defensive driving.
If a car has a front wing beside you then you are supposed to leave space not 'cowl' another car off the road.

70/30 Rosberg/Hamilton.

30 for Hamilton as I think should have known better that Rosberg lacks tier 1 wheel wheel to wheel combat is not strong.

There seems to be different rules within Mercedes. Hamilton has gone way off line in Hungary in the past to push Rosberg right off the track, and there was no punishment. The usual rules don't seem to be applied within the team in that they don't protest one car against the other for the normal racing rules to apply.

So it depends on whether you are judging using the Mercedes rules or the FIA rules.

I will wait to see if Hamilton was alongside in any way.
Also it depends on the timing and what Rosberg could have been aware of when he was making his moves.

I think thats 50/50 imo. Rosberg covered him too late and I think he was surprised by the closing speed.
That being said, if there was a wall there would Hamilton have tried to send one up the inside? I think he placed a hell of alot of trust in Rosberg to give him space and essentially yield first place.

For those saying Rosberg was entitled to give him space. I disagree, the only reason Hamilton got alongside was because he was going onto the grass. If there was a wall there, Hamilton doesn't go for that move.

It's like people on here have a set of rules that they apply one way when their driver is behind and the same rule another way when their driver is in front. Total lack of consistency from some people on here.
Does the rule about crowding another car to the edge of the track apply in this situation and did it apply in Spa 2014? The only difference is whether you treat corners differently from how you treat corners.
If the argument that getting your wing alongside the rear wheel of another car allows you the right to the corner does actually hold, then one has to compare similar incidents form the past and question them. My feeling is that if Rosberg was at fault in Spa, he can't be to blame here as well. it's one or the other for me but not both.

flyboy10 wrote:It's like people on here have a set of rules that they apply one way when their driver is behind and the same rule another way when their driver is in front. Total lack of consistency from some people on here.
Does the rule about crowding another car to the edge of the track apply in this situation and did it apply in Spa 2014? The only difference is whether you treat corners differently from how you treat corners.
If the argument that getting your wing alongside the rear wheel of another car allows you the right to the corner does actually hold, then one has to compare similar incidents form the past and question them. My feeling is that if Rosberg was at fault in Spa, he can't be to blame here as well. it's one or the other for me but not both.

I wish it did apply to corners but every race you see one driver pushing off another on the exit of corners.

Toto Wolff is talking out of his backside. He's saying they have to wait to see if the stewards apportion blame before saying whether it was Nico's or Lewis' fault. Shame they didn't do that before lambasting Rosberg at Spa. Sorry, Toto, I'm losing respect for you.

Another interesting thing to consider given Lewis' higher closing speed, would he have made the corner without running wide on the exit and still possibly collecting Nico or at least making contact on the exit or running Nico off track? Nico could've left Lewis enough space through Turn 3 but still ended up compromising his own race because Lewis didn't look like he had a Plan B there and was carrying too much speed into a tight line.

Whichever way one looks at it, Lewis wasn't alongside when he ran off-track, and if he had stayed within track limits, wouldn't have been at all. Was Lewis alongside at any point within track limits? Doesn't look like it.

P.S. Toto demonstrates his lack of credibility again. Was all too ready to blame Nico in the past when asked for comment, but chickens out now saying 'will wait for the stewards' decision' before commenting. Fair enough if he does that all the time, not selectively.

j man wrote:It'd be interesting to see how the timing of Rosberg's defensive move compares to Schumacher's much-criticised swipe at Barrichello in Hungary a few years back. I suspect they are not too far different...

They are very different. Barrichello did not crash into the pit wall.


As for this crash, Rosberg did what he should have done. So did Lewis. I have no idea who to blame, to be honest. Contact was inevitable in this situation.

flyboy10 wrote:Toto Wolff is talking out of his backside. He's saying they have to wait to see if the stewards apportion blame before saying whether it was Nico's or Lewis' fault. Shame they didn't do that before lambasting Rosberg at Spa. Sorry, Toto, I'm losing respect for you.

Toto also said something about Rosberg losing something, which David Coultard interpreted as Rosberg losing some drive from his stored energy, so Rosberg may have been reacting to that.
I did see a message on screen that car #44 was being investigated, so seemingly the stewards will be giving a verdict using the FIA rules. That may have affected the Mercedes decision.

Apparently Niki Lauda thought it was Hamilton's fault - according to Ch4.

Going to watch the start again right now on C4+1 just to see the overhead shots from the helicopter.

babararacucudada wrote:

flyboy10 wrote:Toto Wolff is talking out of his backside. He's saying they have to wait to see if the stewards apportion blame before saying whether it was Nico's or Lewis' fault. Shame they didn't do that before lambasting Rosberg at Spa. Sorry, Toto, I'm losing respect for you.

Toto also said something about Rosberg losing something, which David Coultard interpreted as Rosberg losing some drive from his stored energy, so Rosberg may have been reacting to that.
I did see a message on screen that car #44 was being investigated, so seemingly the stewards will be giving a verdict using the FIA rules. That may have affected the Mercedes decision.

Apparently Niki Lauda thought it was Hamilton's fault - according to Ch4.

Nico apparently lost some of the KERS boost mid-corner, which would account for at least a portion of the speed differential between the two Mercs.

babararacucudada wrote:Apparently Niki Lauda thought it was Hamilton's fault - according to Ch4.

I heard the opposite from Lauda, that he was blaming Rosberg this time.

flyboy10 wrote:Going to watch the start again right now on C4+1 just to see the overhead shots from the helicopter.

That didn't help

flyboy10 wrote:

babararacucudada wrote:Apparently Niki Lauda thought it was Hamilton's fault - according to Ch4.

I heard the opposite from Lauda, that he was blaming Rosberg this time.

Interview on Sky Lauda directly blamed Hamilton.

mikeyg123 wrote:

flyboy10 wrote:

babararacucudada wrote:Apparently Niki Lauda thought it was Hamilton's fault - according to Ch4.

I heard the opposite from Lauda, that he was blaming Rosberg this time.

Interview on Sky Lauda directly blamed Hamilton.

Interesting. I think the real issue that's only been touched on is that Merc just lost 43 championship points in turn 4 of the grand prix as a direct result of the action of one or both of their drivers. Totally unacceptable. I still say let them race though.

flyboy10 wrote:

mikeyg123 wrote:

flyboy10 wrote:

babararacucudada wrote:Apparently Niki Lauda thought it was Hamilton's fault - according to Ch4.

I heard the opposite from Lauda, that he was blaming Rosberg this time.

Interview on Sky Lauda directly blamed Hamilton.

Interesting. I think the real issue that's only been touched on is that Merc just lost 43 championship points in turn 4 of the grand prix as a direct result of the action of one or both of their drivers. Totally unacceptable. I still say let them race though.

Think is though, as Brundle pointed out, does it really matter? Mercedes have the luxury of being able to afford to let their drivers race and it is inevitable that sometimes things like this will happen. It's a testament to both Mercedes drivers that they collide so rarely despite almost always being in a race of two.

fieldstvl wrote:Oh god. Can we say it was neither's fault, I'd rather they were both still racing, and I don't want to see any penalties for either?

Essentially so.
What remains is rather the team policy of "it is not acceptable" that they take each other out, especially in first corners of the race. The question, "Why did you do that?" may be asked both drivers. And it is up to the team to handle the situation wisely. It really is the internal issue, not the issue for the stewarding.