RedBull change - Ricciardo the new Webber?

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trento
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Re: RedBull change - Ricciardo the new Webber?

Post by trento »

mikeyg123 wrote:
red_alert wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:Ricciardo was given the best strategy.
That's why he came 4th. Track position rules here, so not the best.
Then why did Ferrari rob Vettel?
It was a move to get Vettel ahead of Ric. No one knew kimi n max would get ahead. Sometimes strategy works, sometimes backfires. It happens.

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Re: RedBull change - Ricciardo the new Webber?

Post by speedysoprano »

Blinky McSquinty wrote:
I like both Ricciardo and Verstapen, 50/50. So although Verstappen did show that he can get up to speed in a new car very impressively, Ricciardo really displayed why is is such a hot item. In Q2 Verstappen was a half second quicker, but that also means that the tires he starts on will not be as good as Ricciardo, who did not punish his tires as much. And when it came time to really lay it down, Ricciardo did it in only one attempt.

You don't win any points or money for what you did in Q2, it is only a prelude to Q3. Riciardo knew exactly what to do, he went gentle on his Q2 tires so that when the red lights went out, his tires would be much better than Verstappen's. While Verstappen may be just concentrating on going fast, Ricciardo's mastery is almost like Prost, he sees the big picture and manages his races very efficiently and smart.
That's much what I was saying to my husband last night. He disagreed, but only because he absolutely despises Prost and he likes Ricciardo. :lol:
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Re: RedBull change - Ricciardo the new Webber?

Post by Worldchampion »

I hope this doesn't end up like Australia coming second to Ukraine at Eurovision

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Re: RedBull change - Ricciardo the new Webber?

Post by speedysoprano »

nixxxon wrote:Guys please.
The tires lasted long enough for both Max and Kimi but what if they didnt? Then it would be the best strategy too?
It was a gamble for both teams, or maybe the best strategy was not clear

That's how I feel about it. A real shame for RIC but honestly don't think the team did it on purpose. Max and Kimi's tyres could have cliff edged and then it would be a very different story. Can understand why Seb and Dan are annoyed, though. I would be too.
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Re: RedBull change - Ricciardo the new Webber?

Post by rivf1 »

Should be interesting to see how dan goes at monaco with Marko's new 4 stop hard compound strategy and running the Renault 2014 spec engine, while max is running the new b spec 2016 renault. Should be a fair race :)

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Re: RedBull change - Ricciardo the new Webber?

Post by Covalent »

rivf1 wrote:Should be interesting to see how dan goes at monaco with Marko's new 4 stop hard compound strategy and running the Renault 2014 spec engine, while max is running the new b spec 2016 renault. Should be a fair race :)
Yawn. After only one race I'm already tired of you silly tin foil hat people.

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Re: RedBull change - Ricciardo the new Webber?

Post by trento »

Max is the new Vettel. Everyone else are just Webbers. Ric may be dropped to TR

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Re: RedBull change - Ricciardo the new Webber?

Post by Bentrovato »

Both teams went with the same strategy and both teams got it wrong that's why Max won and Kimi got second. Max does look good though so we'll see how Ricciardo holds up - I think they'll be equal.

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Re: RedBull change - Ricciardo the new Webber?

Post by F1Oz »

While Dan had more pace on the last set of boots than Vettel - it would still have been a tough ask to get past both KR and Verstappen - although DR is one driver who I think may have managed it - if only he hadn't been held up by Vettel with his more powerful Ferrari (and some good defensive driving - this was racing and SV of course was fighting for position as he should have been)

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Re: RedBull change - Ricciardo the new Webber?

Post by rivf1 »

F1Oz wrote:While Dan had more pace on the last set of boots than Vettel - it would still have been a tough ask to get past both KR and Verstappen - although DR is one driver who I think may have managed it - if only he hadn't been held up by Vettel with his more powerful Ferrari (and some good defensive driving - this was racing and SV of course was fighting for position as he should have been)
Neither the bully or the Ferrai had the pace to get past each other on that track, it was a completely dud strategy. The only over take between these four cars was on that first lap in traffic when max got passed Vettel. The only two cars that could have pulled of that strategy crashed on lap 1.

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Re: RedBull change - Ricciardo the new Webber?

Post by purchville »

From http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2016/05/s ... r-ferrari/

' The obvious thing to do in Barcelona was to ask Verstappen to drop back three seconds behind Ricciardo, dropping Vettel out of range of undercutting the Australian. From there Ricciardo would be certain to win the race and a team victory would be secure. Verstappen would probably have finished third in that scenario.
But they either didn’t want to ask Verstappen to do that or didn’t want to prioritise Ricciardo for the win.'


Interesting as James notes, that the favored strategy down the pit lane pre-race was a 2-stop, as whilst a 3-stop was theoretically quicker, in practice the difficulty in overtaking at Catalunya would always cost too much time. The teams knew this. Also, it was Ferrari that mirrored RBR by switching to a 3-stop after Ricciardo did on Lap 28, not the other way around.

Another way of looking at this is that Red Bull had more confidence in Ricciardo to complete the required moves.

According to the analysis, RBR scored 1st and 4th, but it could have been 1st and 3rd.
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Re: RedBull change - Ricciardo the new Webber?

Post by Black_Flag_11 »

A very interesting test is about to come for this theory.

Renault has brought forward its engine upgrade from Canada to Monaco but will only give one engine each to both its works team and Red Bull. Meaning the teams will need to decide which driver runs it.

http://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/renau ... ix-738690/

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Re: RedBull change - Ricciardo the new Webber?

Post by moby »

Black_Flag_11 wrote:A very interesting test is about to come for this theory.

Renault has brought forward its engine upgrade from Canada to Monaco but will only give one engine each to both its works team and Red Bull. Meaning the teams will need to decide which driver runs it.

http://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/renau ... ix-738690/

I thought only the Renault used Renault,and Red Bell used TAG engines? Are Renault then supplying upgrades to TAG?

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Re: RedBull change - Ricciardo the new Webber?

Post by Exediron »

moby wrote:I thought only the Renault used Renault,and Red Bell used TAG engines? Are Renault then supplying upgrades to TAG?
8O

Say it ain't so! What sort of conspiracy is this?!
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Re: RedBull change - Ricciardo the new Webber?

Post by infi24r »

Black_Flag_11 wrote:A very interesting test is about to come for this theory.

Renault has brought forward its engine upgrade from Canada to Monaco but will only give one engine each to both its works team and Red Bull. Meaning the teams will need to decide which driver runs it.

http://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/renau ... ix-738690/
If they give Max the engine its making a rather large statement, especially as he's both behind in points and only in his second race with the team.

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Re: RedBull change - Ricciardo the new Webber?

Post by Black_Flag_11 »

infi24r wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:A very interesting test is about to come for this theory.

Renault has brought forward its engine upgrade from Canada to Monaco but will only give one engine each to both its works team and Red Bull. Meaning the teams will need to decide which driver runs it.

http://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/renau ... ix-738690/
If they give Max the engine its making a rather large statement, especially as he's both behind in points and only in his second race with the team.
I see two ways of them looking at it.

Ricciardo is ahead on points so give it to him, that's the common sense option. The counter argument to that may be that Verstappen hasn't had the same equipment and based on their races in the same team Max is ahead on points. That would be quite a bold decision though.

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Re: RedBull change - Ricciardo the new Webber?

Post by moby »

Exediron wrote:
moby wrote:I thought only the Renault used Renault,and Red Bell used TAG engines? Are Renault then supplying upgrades to TAG?
8O

Say it ain't so! What sort of conspiracy is this?!
:]

I thought the idea of RBR going with TAG badging was that they were going to do their own development etc. I then assumed the engines would diverge, so work done by Renault-factory would not be suitable for engines modified by Renault-TAG. If not, why bother re-branding them? other than the cash that comes with the name I suppose.

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Re: RedBull change - Ricciardo the new Webber?

Post by Exediron »

moby wrote:I thought the idea of RBR going with TAG badging was that they were going to do their own development etc. I then assumed the engines would diverge, so work done by Renault-factory would not be suitable for engines modified by Renault-TAG. If not, why bother re-branding them? other than the cash that comes with the name I suppose.
I'm pretty sure the re-branding is purely to allow RBR to save face after all the slagging of Renault they did last year. So far as I'm aware, it's still a straight-up Renault engine in the back.
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Re: RedBull change - Ricciardo the new Webber?

Post by Randine »

We might know the answer to this question very soon.

If they give the new engine to Max at Monaco over Ric, then he is the new Webber.

If they do, he must find a new team for 2017. I hope Rosberg goes to Ferrari and Ric to Merc to put himself against the best in Ham...
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Re: RedBull change - Ricciardo the new Webber?

Post by mds »

Randine wrote: If they give the new engine to Max at Monaco over Ric, then he is the new Webber.
And if they don't, I hope this thread will die a quick death.
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Re: RedBull change - Ricciardo the new Webber?

Post by Zoue »

mds wrote:
Randine wrote: If they give the new engine to Max at Monaco over Ric, then he is the new Webber.
And if they don't, I hope this thread will die a quick death.
Until the next time. If people can manage to claim favouritism even before Max sat in a Red Bull car, any time Ricciardo get's e.g. a problem at a pit stop or a mechanical issue will be held up as proof of that. Anything suggesting otherwise will be just dismissed as window dressing

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Re: RedBull change - Ricciardo the new Webber?

Post by Randine »

Ric to run new engine in Monaco
http://www.skysports.com/f1/news/12475/ ... -in-monaco

Maybe he won't be the new Webber after all
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Re: RedBull change - Ricciardo the new Webber?

Post by pokerman »

Exediron wrote:
moby wrote:I thought the idea of RBR going with TAG badging was that they were going to do their own development etc. I then assumed the engines would diverge, so work done by Renault-factory would not be suitable for engines modified by Renault-TAG. If not, why bother re-branding them? other than the cash that comes with the name I suppose.
I'm pretty sure the re-branding is purely to allow RBR to save face after all the slagging of Renault they did last year. So far as I'm aware, it's still a straight-up Renault engine in the back.
Yes it's a full blown engine developed by Renault, Red Bull are not allowed to do any development on the engine, there is only one homologation allowed.
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Re: RedBull change - Ricciardo the new Webber?

Post by pokerman »

Randine wrote:Ric to run new engine in Monaco
http://www.skysports.com/f1/news/12475/ ... -in-monaco

Maybe he won't be the new Webber after all
Yes that makes sense to give it to the faster driver ;)

I'll go and get my coat :)
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Re: RedBull change - Ricciardo the new Webber?

Post by Covalent »

So Verstappen is the new Webber?

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Re: RedBull change - Ricciardo the new Webber?

Post by trento »

Covalent wrote:So Verstappen is the new Webber?
He's the new Vettel!

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Re: RedBull change - Ricciardo the new Webber?

Post by Covalent »

trento wrote:
Covalent wrote:So Verstappen is the new Webber?
He's the new Vettel!
I was following up on the notion that if Verstappen gets the new engine then Ricciardo is the new Webber, so because this must work both ways then I guess Max is the new Webber according to that logic.

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Re: RedBull change - Ricciardo the new Webber?

Post by moby »

pokerman wrote:
Exediron wrote:
moby wrote:I thought the idea of RBR going with TAG badging was that they were going to do their own development etc. I then assumed the engines would diverge, so work done by Renault-factory would not be suitable for engines modified by Renault-TAG. If not, why bother re-branding them? other than the cash that comes with the name I suppose.
I'm pretty sure the re-branding is purely to allow RBR to save face after all the slagging of Renault they did last year. So far as I'm aware, it's still a straight-up Renault engine in the back.
Yes it's a full blown engine developed by Renault, Red Bull are not allowed to do any development on the engine, there is only one homologation allowed.

I was thinking of the "fracas" with Red Bull bringing in outside companies to tell Renault how they were not doing their job?
I then assumed the Red Bull engine would be developed by them

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Re: RedBull change - Ricciardo the new Webber?

Post by F1Oz »

Vettel always got the updated parts first if there was only one - and at the British GP got Mark's new wing after Vettel damaged his own - hence the 'not bad for a number 2 driver' comment when Webber won.

Found the premise of the following story interesting - in 2013, was the difference between the drivers just Vettel or did he have car advantages over not only Webber but everyone else?
http://jalopnik.com/red-bull-may-have-i ... 1442585020

Conspiracy theories aside, Webber often seemed to get strategies that seemed risky compared to SV - but they 'sometimes' worked....

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Re: RedBull change - Ricciardo the new Webber?

Post by Zoue »

F1Oz wrote:Vettel always got the updated parts first if there was only one - and at the British GP got Mark's new wing after Vettel damaged his own - hence the 'not bad for a number 2 driver' comment when Webber won.

Found the premise of the following story interesting - in 2013, was the difference between the drivers just Vettel or did he have car advantages over not only Webber but everyone else?
http://jalopnik.com/red-bull-may-have-i ... 1442585020

Conspiracy theories aside, Webber often seemed to get strategies that seemed risky compared to SV - but they 'sometimes' worked....
The key is in this bit:

Let me start out by saying that the technology being discussed here is based on rumor.

Nothing to see here, in other words.

If Mark got riskier strategies - and I'm not inclined to believe that's true - then it was no doubt because he invariably found himself fighting with lesser cars while his team mate sailed off into the distance and could afford to play it safe. As to the parts, I'd be interested to see confirmation that they always went to Vettel first?

The front wing saga is probably one of the biggest red herrings in the history of the sport. Vettel expressed a preference, Webber didn't. Yet it's clung to as an excuse for Webber's relatively poor performance over their entire four years together.

Webber. Wasn't. As. Good. As. Vettel.

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Re: RedBull change - Ricciardo the new Webber?

Post by Black_Flag_11 »

Zoue wrote:
F1Oz wrote:Vettel always got the updated parts first if there was only one - and at the British GP got Mark's new wing after Vettel damaged his own - hence the 'not bad for a number 2 driver' comment when Webber won.

Found the premise of the following story interesting - in 2013, was the difference between the drivers just Vettel or did he have car advantages over not only Webber but everyone else?
http://jalopnik.com/red-bull-may-have-i ... 1442585020

Conspiracy theories aside, Webber often seemed to get strategies that seemed risky compared to SV - but they 'sometimes' worked....
The key is in this bit:

Let me start out by saying that the technology being discussed here is based on rumor.

Nothing to see here, in other words.

If Mark got riskier strategies - and I'm not inclined to believe that's true - then it was no doubt because he invariably found himself fighting with lesser cars while his team mate sailed off into the distance and could afford to play it safe. As to the parts, I'd be interested to see confirmation that they always went to Vettel first?

The front wing saga is probably one of the biggest red herrings in the history of the sport. Vettel expressed a preference, Webber didn't. Yet it's clung to as an excuse for Webber's relatively poor performance over their entire four years together.

Webber. Wasn't. As. Good. As. Vettel.
Mark said in his book actually that neither he nor Vettel really cared for the new front wing on that weekend, but that he was surprised when he heard the story that it was only Mark who didn't have a preference.

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Re: RedBull change - Ricciardo the new Webber?

Post by F1Oz »

I think Vettel was better at a car that he could point and shoot and lead from the front - Webber (like Dan) was a more complete driver who could manage a more evilly handling car - but RBR worked hard to make the 2010 car suit vettel and MW lost out (and lost the WDC by losing the car off a kerb in Korea - unlucky but his fault - although based on SV's car dying i must add)

I wish we could have seen MW in a beast of a car (powerful) but evil handling - he would have been great(er) :)

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Re: RedBull change - Ricciardo the new Webber?

Post by Zoue »

Black_Flag_11 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
F1Oz wrote:Vettel always got the updated parts first if there was only one - and at the British GP got Mark's new wing after Vettel damaged his own - hence the 'not bad for a number 2 driver' comment when Webber won.

Found the premise of the following story interesting - in 2013, was the difference between the drivers just Vettel or did he have car advantages over not only Webber but everyone else?
http://jalopnik.com/red-bull-may-have-i ... 1442585020

Conspiracy theories aside, Webber often seemed to get strategies that seemed risky compared to SV - but they 'sometimes' worked....
The key is in this bit:

Let me start out by saying that the technology being discussed here is based on rumor.

Nothing to see here, in other words.

If Mark got riskier strategies - and I'm not inclined to believe that's true - then it was no doubt because he invariably found himself fighting with lesser cars while his team mate sailed off into the distance and could afford to play it safe. As to the parts, I'd be interested to see confirmation that they always went to Vettel first?

The front wing saga is probably one of the biggest red herrings in the history of the sport. Vettel expressed a preference, Webber didn't. Yet it's clung to as an excuse for Webber's relatively poor performance over their entire four years together.

Webber. Wasn't. As. Good. As. Vettel.
Mark said in his book actually that neither he nor Vettel really cared for the new front wing on that weekend, but that he was surprised when he heard the story that it was only Mark who didn't have a preference.
Forgive me, but Mark's not likely to have a wholly unbiased view and independent reports at the time stated otherwise. There is no evidence that Mark was ever unfairly disadvantaged by the team, or that he was in any way held back from competing with Vettel.

People who believe in conspiracy theories will seize on anything, however minor, to "prove" their point. The team gave a valid reason. Could they have handled it better? Undoubtedly. Could Mark? 100%. But they were together for four years and there is no evidence whatsoever that Mark didn't have his chances to beat Vettel. It's funny how those same conspiracy theorists conveniently ignore Malaysia 2013, when the team publicly supported Mark over Seb. But if it doesn't fit the narrative...

Ricciardo has been given the upgraded engine today, which has temporarily silenced the sceptics. If it had gone to Max then they'd be crying foul to anyone who cared to listen. But I'd put money on it that if the new unit has a reliability issue it will be used as proof that Max is favoured, as Ricciardo shouldn't have been given a unit that wasn't ready etc etc. I hope that it doesn't as I guarantee that will be the reaction if it does. Wait and see

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Re: RedBull change - Ricciardo the new Webber?

Post by Black_Flag_11 »

Zoue wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
F1Oz wrote:Vettel always got the updated parts first if there was only one - and at the British GP got Mark's new wing after Vettel damaged his own - hence the 'not bad for a number 2 driver' comment when Webber won.

Found the premise of the following story interesting - in 2013, was the difference between the drivers just Vettel or did he have car advantages over not only Webber but everyone else?
http://jalopnik.com/red-bull-may-have-i ... 1442585020

Conspiracy theories aside, Webber often seemed to get strategies that seemed risky compared to SV - but they 'sometimes' worked....
The key is in this bit:

Let me start out by saying that the technology being discussed here is based on rumor.

Nothing to see here, in other words.

If Mark got riskier strategies - and I'm not inclined to believe that's true - then it was no doubt because he invariably found himself fighting with lesser cars while his team mate sailed off into the distance and could afford to play it safe. As to the parts, I'd be interested to see confirmation that they always went to Vettel first?

The front wing saga is probably one of the biggest red herrings in the history of the sport. Vettel expressed a preference, Webber didn't. Yet it's clung to as an excuse for Webber's relatively poor performance over their entire four years together.

Webber. Wasn't. As. Good. As. Vettel.
Mark said in his book actually that neither he nor Vettel really cared for the new front wing on that weekend, but that he was surprised when he heard the story that it was only Mark who didn't have a preference.
Forgive me, but Mark's not likely to have a wholly unbiased view and independent reports at the time stated otherwise. There is no evidence that Mark was ever unfairly disadvantaged by the team, or that he was in any way held back from competing with Vettel.
Oh I agree, just adding some extra context to that point on the front wing as I only recently read Mark's book on holiday and up to that had only heard of the story from the unnamed Red Bull engineer source.

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Re: RedBull change - Ricciardo the new Webber?

Post by Zoue »

F1Oz wrote:I think Vettel was better at a car that he could point and shoot and lead from the front - Webber (like Dan) was a more complete driver who could manage a more evilly handling car - but RBR worked hard to make the 2010 car suit vettel and MW lost out (and lost the WDC by losing the car off a kerb in Korea - unlucky but his fault - although based on SV's car dying i must add)

I wish we could have seen MW in a beast of a car (powerful) but evil handling - he would have been great(er) :)
Mark was definitely no slouch. I think it was Mark Hughes who wrote a detailed analysis and showed Webber was actually quicker in the fast corners. It was the slow corners where he couldn't get the best out of the blown diffuser and tyres and where Seb pulled out a large gap over him.

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Re: RedBull change - Ricciardo the new Webber?

Post by Exediron »

moby wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Exediron wrote:
moby wrote:I thought the idea of RBR going with TAG badging was that they were going to do their own development etc. I then assumed the engines would diverge, so work done by Renault-factory would not be suitable for engines modified by Renault-TAG. If not, why bother re-branding them? other than the cash that comes with the name I suppose.
I'm pretty sure the re-branding is purely to allow RBR to save face after all the slagging of Renault they did last year. So far as I'm aware, it's still a straight-up Renault engine in the back.
Yes it's a full blown engine developed by Renault, Red Bull are not allowed to do any development on the engine, there is only one homologation allowed.
I was thinking of the "fracas" with Red Bull bringing in outside companies to tell Renault how they were not doing their job?
I then assumed the Red Bull engine would be developed by them
No, what ended up happening is that the outside company (Ilmor) is helping Renault develop the one and only engine they both use. So yes, Red Bull's engine is being helped in development by an outside company, but that's because both engines are. They are indeed the same.
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