Bit confused on different 2017 opinions

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clarkeeuk99
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Bit confused on different 2017 opinions

Post by clarkeeuk99 »

I'm a bit confused by this: http://www.autosport.com/news/report.ph ... 17-changes

As I understood it, the 2017 rules will be making cars faster by making the cars produce more aerodynamic grip & downforce (as per Toto's comments), but Boullier seems to say that the cars will end up faster by increased mechanical grip. Most of the articles I've read (and most of the technical analysis I've read/seen on Autoport, Sky, etc) seem to point more towards Toto's comments.

Is there perhaps some scope for "mis-interpretation" of the rules? Or is Boullier just saying this because he feels McLaren will be able to fare well in light on these rule changes?

pokerman
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Re: Bit confused on different 2017 opinions

Post by pokerman »

I think McLaren like Red Bull feel the new rules will favour them and are happy to give out misinformation about the quality of the racing between the cars.
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Zoue
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Re: Bit confused on different 2017 opinions

Post by Zoue »

pokerman wrote:I think McLaren like Red Bull feel the new rules will favour them and are happy to give out misinformation about the quality of the racing between the cars.
As opposed to Mercedes who are a beacon of truth?

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Re: Bit confused on different 2017 opinions

Post by pokerman »

Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:I think McLaren like Red Bull feel the new rules will favour them and are happy to give out misinformation about the quality of the racing between the cars.
As opposed to Mercedes who are a beacon of truth?
Are the drivers being dishonest as well?
Lewis Hamilton #44

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Re: Bit confused on different 2017 opinions

Post by Zoue »

pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:I think McLaren like Red Bull feel the new rules will favour them and are happy to give out misinformation about the quality of the racing between the cars.
As opposed to Mercedes who are a beacon of truth?
Are the drivers being dishonest as well?
Don't know. It's not me that picked two teams and said they must be.

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Randine
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Re: Bit confused on different 2017 opinions

Post by Randine »

clarkeeuk99 wrote:I'm a bit confused by this: http://www.autosport.com/news/report.ph ... 17-changes

As I understood it, the 2017 rules will be making cars faster by making the cars produce more aerodynamic grip & downforce (as per Toto's comments), but Boullier seems to say that the cars will end up faster by increased mechanical grip. Most of the articles I've read (and most of the technical analysis I've read/seen on Autoport, Sky, etc) seem to point more towards Toto's comments.

Is there perhaps some scope for "mis-interpretation" of the rules? Or is Boullier just saying this because he feels McLaren will be able to fare well in light on these rule changes?
I don't know who is right. I suspect Boullier has been able to hide his poor performance behind Honda. If Honda were amazing day 1, Boullier would have been booted by now.

The more down force and mechanical grip, the easier these things will become to drive. They would have been better off keeping the tires the same size as this year but make them true performance tires so they can be pushed every lap.
Then on top of that up the fuel flow so the cars get up to 1100-1200 HP.
That way the cars would be a complete handful to drive and it would show who really had the best driving skills.
2017 regs will allow any monkey to drive fast.
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Lotus49
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Re: Bit confused on different 2017 opinions

Post by Lotus49 »

The new regs on current tyres would be as Toto described but the new regs on proper tyres would be as Eric does.

Over to you Pirelli.
"Clark came through at the end of the first lap so far ahead that we in the pits were convinced that the rest of the field must have been wiped out in an accident."
-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967

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Re: Bit confused on different 2017 opinions

Post by Lotus49 »

pokerman wrote:I think McLaren like Red Bull feel the new rules will favour them and are happy to give out misinformation about the quality of the racing between the cars.
It's not misinformation at all actually, everything he describes there is factually correct. That however doesn't mean that..

a) Pirelli will deliver on better tyres
b) Teams won't deliberately design their cars to make following the car harder as certain teams currently do.

If they can do A and don't do B it can be exactly as Eric describes there.

Toto however, and everyone else scaremongering about the effects of dirty air, continuously leave out the fact we are getting bigger more durable tyres to help generate way more mechanical grip than we have now. They just describe the effects of dirty air on the current boots and scream about adding more aero and it will be worse.

Now that is classic misinformation.
"Clark came through at the end of the first lap so far ahead that we in the pits were convinced that the rest of the field must have been wiped out in an accident."
-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967

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Re: Bit confused on different 2017 opinions

Post by mikeyg123 »

pokerman wrote:I think McLaren like Red Bull feel the new rules will favour them and are happy to give out misinformation about the quality of the racing between the cars.
Are there any teams but Mercedes that are complaining about the new rules?

Big changes to car formula usually results in the field tightening up. I hope that is what happens and then like so many seasons before Pirelli, DRS etc the racing will take care of itself.

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Re: Bit confused on different 2017 opinions

Post by pokerman »

Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:I think McLaren like Red Bull feel the new rules will favour them and are happy to give out misinformation about the quality of the racing between the cars.
As opposed to Mercedes who are a beacon of truth?
Are the drivers being dishonest as well?
Don't know. It's not me that picked two teams and said they must be.
I think perhaps you are getting confused between two things, one is the teams protecting their own interests, another is the cars being able to race one another without being aerodynamically disadvantaged.

Maybe some are just so prefixed on seeing the end of the Mercedes domination that they can't see the wood for the trees?
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Re: Bit confused on different 2017 opinions

Post by pokerman »

Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:I think McLaren like Red Bull feel the new rules will favour them and are happy to give out misinformation about the quality of the racing between the cars.
It's not misinformation at all actually, everything he describes there is factually correct. That however doesn't mean that..

a) Pirelli will deliver on better tyres
b) Teams won't deliberately design their cars to make following the car harder as certain teams currently do.

If they can do A and don't do B it can be exactly as Eric describes there.

Toto however, and everyone else scaremongering about the effects of dirty air, continuously leave out the fact we are getting bigger more durable tyres to help generate way more mechanical grip than we have now. They just describe the effects of dirty air on the current boots and scream about adding more aero and it will be worse.

Now that is classic misinformation.
Tyres in the past were perfectly good enough for the job in hand but they couldn't overcome the aerodynamic wake.
Lewis Hamilton #44

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Lotus49
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Re: Bit confused on different 2017 opinions

Post by Lotus49 »

pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:I think McLaren like Red Bull feel the new rules will favour them and are happy to give out misinformation about the quality of the racing between the cars.
It's not misinformation at all actually, everything he describes there is factually correct. That however doesn't mean that..

a) Pirelli will deliver on better tyres
b) Teams won't deliberately design their cars to make following the car harder as certain teams currently do.

If they can do A and don't do B it can be exactly as Eric describes there.

Toto however, and everyone else scaremongering about the effects of dirty air, continuously leave out the fact we are getting bigger more durable tyres to help generate way more mechanical grip than we have now. They just describe the effects of dirty air on the current boots and scream about adding more aero and it will be worse.

Now that is classic misinformation.
Tyres in the past were perfectly good enough for the job in hand but they couldn't overcome the aerodynamic wake.
Nothing can.
"Clark came through at the end of the first lap so far ahead that we in the pits were convinced that the rest of the field must have been wiped out in an accident."
-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967

Zoue
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Re: Bit confused on different 2017 opinions

Post by Zoue »

pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:I think McLaren like Red Bull feel the new rules will favour them and are happy to give out misinformation about the quality of the racing between the cars.
As opposed to Mercedes who are a beacon of truth?
Are the drivers being dishonest as well?
Don't know. It's not me that picked two teams and said they must be.
I think perhaps you are getting confused between two things, one is the teams protecting their own interests, another is the cars being able to race one another without being aerodynamically disadvantaged.

Maybe some are just so prefixed on seeing the end of the Mercedes domination that they can't see the wood for the trees?
Again, it's not me accusing others of being underhand here. You're laying that accusation at those taking one side of the argument, but you have no reason to believe that is the case other than that they conflict with Mercedes whose side you have clearly taken.

Alonso has also said he welcomes the 2017 rules and having faster cars. You may either choose to believe he sees it very differently to Hamilton, or you may conclude one of the two is lying (no prizes for guessing which). Personally, I've seen enough F1 technical rules made in good faith which have turned out to not produce the desired results to keep an open mind on 2017.

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Re: Bit confused on different 2017 opinions

Post by pokerman »

mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:I think McLaren like Red Bull feel the new rules will favour them and are happy to give out misinformation about the quality of the racing between the cars.
Are there any teams but Mercedes that are complaining about the new rules?

Big changes to car formula usually results in the field tightening up. I hope that is what happens and then like so many seasons before Pirelli, DRS etc the racing will take care of itself.
I believe the only teams in favour are McLaren, Red Bull and STR, engineers like Pat Symonds have said that more aero makes overtaking more difficult.
Lewis Hamilton #44

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Re: Bit confused on different 2017 opinions

Post by pokerman »

Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:I think McLaren like Red Bull feel the new rules will favour them and are happy to give out misinformation about the quality of the racing between the cars.
It's not misinformation at all actually, everything he describes there is factually correct. That however doesn't mean that..

a) Pirelli will deliver on better tyres
b) Teams won't deliberately design their cars to make following the car harder as certain teams currently do.

If they can do A and don't do B it can be exactly as Eric describes there.

Toto however, and everyone else scaremongering about the effects of dirty air, continuously leave out the fact we are getting bigger more durable tyres to help generate way more mechanical grip than we have now. They just describe the effects of dirty air on the current boots and scream about adding more aero and it will be worse.

Now that is classic misinformation.
Tyres in the past were perfectly good enough for the job in hand but they couldn't overcome the aerodynamic wake.
Nothing can.
You agree with me so I'm lost to what argument you were making? :?
Lewis Hamilton #44

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Re: Bit confused on different 2017 opinions

Post by pokerman »

Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:As opposed to Mercedes who are a beacon of truth?
Are the drivers being dishonest as well?
Don't know. It's not me that picked two teams and said they must be.
I think perhaps you are getting confused between two things, one is the teams protecting their own interests, another is the cars being able to race one another without being aerodynamically disadvantaged.

Maybe some are just so prefixed on seeing the end of the Mercedes domination that they can't see the wood for the trees?
Again, it's not me accusing others of being underhand here. You're laying that accusation at those taking one side of the argument, but you have no reason to believe that is the case other than that they conflict with Mercedes whose side you have clearly taken.

Alonso has also said he welcomes the 2017 rules and having faster cars. You may either choose to believe he sees it very differently to Hamilton, or you may conclude one of the two is lying (no prizes for guessing which). Personally, I've seen enough F1 technical rules made in good faith which have turned out to not produce the desired results to keep an open mind on 2017.
Alonso also says that overtaking isn't a priority, F1 has been down this road before it's just that some people seem to have short memories, the vast majority of drivers want race able cars.
Lewis Hamilton #44

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Grand Prix Wins: 95 (1st)
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Zoue
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Re: Bit confused on different 2017 opinions

Post by Zoue »

pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:I think McLaren like Red Bull feel the new rules will favour them and are happy to give out misinformation about the quality of the racing between the cars.
Are there any teams but Mercedes that are complaining about the new rules?

Big changes to car formula usually results in the field tightening up. I hope that is what happens and then like so many seasons before Pirelli, DRS etc the racing will take care of itself.
I believe the only teams in favour are McLaren, Red Bull and STR, engineers like Pat Symonds have said that more aero makes overtaking more difficult.
Well Marko claimed a couple of weeks ago that Ferrari were also in favour of change. He said those fighting against were predominantly Mercedes and their customers

Zoue
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Re: Bit confused on different 2017 opinions

Post by Zoue »

pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote: Are the drivers being dishonest as well?
Don't know. It's not me that picked two teams and said they must be.
I think perhaps you are getting confused between two things, one is the teams protecting their own interests, another is the cars being able to race one another without being aerodynamically disadvantaged.

Maybe some are just so prefixed on seeing the end of the Mercedes domination that they can't see the wood for the trees?
Again, it's not me accusing others of being underhand here. You're laying that accusation at those taking one side of the argument, but you have no reason to believe that is the case other than that they conflict with Mercedes whose side you have clearly taken.

Alonso has also said he welcomes the 2017 rules and having faster cars. You may either choose to believe he sees it very differently to Hamilton, or you may conclude one of the two is lying (no prizes for guessing which). Personally, I've seen enough F1 technical rules made in good faith which have turned out to not produce the desired results to keep an open mind on 2017.
Alonso also says that overtaking isn't a priority, F1 has been down this road before it's just that some people seem to have short memories, the vast majority of drivers want race able cars.
...which the current ones aren't without artificial aids (DRS, whacky tyres etc). Several of the drivers at one point or another have expressed dissatisfaction with the current cars. I'm curious as to why you should think when Hamilton or Mercedes say something, then it must be truthful, while if McLaren or Alonso do, they must have ulterior motives?

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Re: Bit confused on different 2017 opinions

Post by Lotus49 »

pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:I think McLaren like Red Bull feel the new rules will favour them and are happy to give out misinformation about the quality of the racing between the cars.
Are there any teams but Mercedes that are complaining about the new rules?

Big changes to car formula usually results in the field tightening up. I hope that is what happens and then like so many seasons before Pirelli, DRS etc the racing will take care of itself.
I believe the only teams in favour are McLaren, Red Bull and STR, engineers like Pat Symonds have said that more aero makes overtaking more difficult.
Force India and Ferrari are too. Though funnily enough Ferrari wanted to wait until the summer before agreeing. I'm sure you can work out why.

http://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/form ... gn=Formel1


ALL teams operate with self interest, I'll copy and paste a summary posted on another forum.

• Red Bull wanted these cars because they believe that they stil have the best aero department and that Newey is stil able to find solutions quicker than others (Slogan: "We prefer our solution, but most importantely it should be different")

• Toro Rosso is for it, because Red Bull is for it

• McLaren is creating an less radical concept for having an experience advantage

• Force India is for it (despite the huge costs), because they believe that Haas will have big struggles to builed a new car without extra wind tunnel time and without Ferrari help

• Mercedes didnt wanted it, simply because nobody would want to give a big advantage away

• Ferrari would have prefered to wait until summer:If they are far away from Merc in the summer, then Marchionne would have supported the 2017 cars as well.

• Regarding head protection: In reality none of the teams care about head protection, but they dont dare to say anything, because it is about safety. Red Bull is lobbying their solution just because they expect to have big aero advantages. Thats why everyone else will prefer halo....

• Regarding fuel limit: the Mercedes teams argueing about efficiency, but in reality they dont want to give up their big advantage.

• The current tyre rules are compromised: the original idea was to chose 3 tyre compounds out of 5. Reasons why it didnt happened: not only Pirelli being afraid that teams might try dangerous things. The big teams because they feared that a midfield team could builed an tyre saving car. The fact that the suggestion came from Force India was prove enough for them....

• Red Bull and Toro Rosso didnt wanted the new engine regulations on principle. They want back to 2013, not becuase it is good for F1 (the sound excuse), but because aero would become more important again

• McLaren didnt wanted it either, even if the end of the token system should be suppostely good for them. But Dennis doesnt want to be forced to give an other team the same engine (while Honda wants btw)

• Force India and Sauber are thinking that the engines are not cheap enough

• Mercedes can perfectly live with the new engine rules: they stil get enough money and the free development doesnt mean that the others will have great ideas. And the equalization is actually in Mercedes hands, their advantage is big enough so that they can play with the gap to be within this limit (top 3 within 3 tenths)

Some pretty grim reading.
"Clark came through at the end of the first lap so far ahead that we in the pits were convinced that the rest of the field must have been wiped out in an accident."
-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967

pokerman
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Re: Bit confused on different 2017 opinions

Post by pokerman »

Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:I think McLaren like Red Bull feel the new rules will favour them and are happy to give out misinformation about the quality of the racing between the cars.
Are there any teams but Mercedes that are complaining about the new rules?

Big changes to car formula usually results in the field tightening up. I hope that is what happens and then like so many seasons before Pirelli, DRS etc the racing will take care of itself.
I believe the only teams in favour are McLaren, Red Bull and STR, engineers like Pat Symonds have said that more aero makes overtaking more difficult.
Well Marko claimed a couple of weeks ago that Ferrari were also in favour of change. He said those fighting against were predominantly Mercedes and their customers
Can't Ferrari speak for themselves?
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Zoue
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Re: Bit confused on different 2017 opinions

Post by Zoue »

pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:I think McLaren like Red Bull feel the new rules will favour them and are happy to give out misinformation about the quality of the racing between the cars.
Are there any teams but Mercedes that are complaining about the new rules?

Big changes to car formula usually results in the field tightening up. I hope that is what happens and then like so many seasons before Pirelli, DRS etc the racing will take care of itself.
I believe the only teams in favour are McLaren, Red Bull and STR, engineers like Pat Symonds have said that more aero makes overtaking more difficult.
Well Marko claimed a couple of weeks ago that Ferrari were also in favour of change. He said those fighting against were predominantly Mercedes and their customers
Can't Ferrari speak for themselves?
Don't know, you'd have to ask them. I'm not sure I understand your point, unless it's to deflect?

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Lotus49
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Re: Bit confused on different 2017 opinions

Post by Lotus49 »

pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:I think McLaren like Red Bull feel the new rules will favour them and are happy to give out misinformation about the quality of the racing between the cars.
It's not misinformation at all actually, everything he describes there is factually correct. That however doesn't mean that..

a) Pirelli will deliver on better tyres
b) Teams won't deliberately design their cars to make following the car harder as certain teams currently do.

If they can do A and don't do B it can be exactly as Eric describes there.

Toto however, and everyone else scaremongering about the effects of dirty air, continuously leave out the fact we are getting bigger more durable tyres to help generate way more mechanical grip than we have now. They just describe the effects of dirty air on the current boots and scream about adding more aero and it will be worse.

Now that is classic misinformation.
Tyres in the past were perfectly good enough for the job in hand but they couldn't overcome the aerodynamic wake.
Nothing can.
You agree with me so I'm lost to what argument you were making? :?
It's right there in the post you quoted.

You can't ever overcome wake completely but it doesn't mean next year will be the worst it's ever been like Toto is telling you. He's describing what it would be like on these boots while ignoring the new tyres.
"Clark came through at the end of the first lap so far ahead that we in the pits were convinced that the rest of the field must have been wiped out in an accident."
-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967

pokerman
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Re: Bit confused on different 2017 opinions

Post by pokerman »

Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:Don't know. It's not me that picked two teams and said they must be.
I think perhaps you are getting confused between two things, one is the teams protecting their own interests, another is the cars being able to race one another without being aerodynamically disadvantaged.

Maybe some are just so prefixed on seeing the end of the Mercedes domination that they can't see the wood for the trees?
Again, it's not me accusing others of being underhand here. You're laying that accusation at those taking one side of the argument, but you have no reason to believe that is the case other than that they conflict with Mercedes whose side you have clearly taken.

Alonso has also said he welcomes the 2017 rules and having faster cars. You may either choose to believe he sees it very differently to Hamilton, or you may conclude one of the two is lying (no prizes for guessing which). Personally, I've seen enough F1 technical rules made in good faith which have turned out to not produce the desired results to keep an open mind on 2017.
Alonso also says that overtaking isn't a priority, F1 has been down this road before it's just that some people seem to have short memories, the vast majority of drivers want race able cars.
...which the current ones aren't without artificial aids (DRS, whacky tyres etc). Several of the drivers at one point or another have expressed dissatisfaction with the current cars. I'm curious as to why you should think when Hamilton or Mercedes say something, then it must be truthful, while if McLaren or Alonso do, they must have ulterior motives?
Yes even with those artificial aids and cars that were designed with less down force to help with overtaking, overtaking is still a problem, Alonso has said he doesn't care how difficult it is to overtake, it should be difficult, welcome back to the Trulli train.
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Re: Bit confused on different 2017 opinions

Post by pokerman »

Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:I think McLaren like Red Bull feel the new rules will favour them and are happy to give out misinformation about the quality of the racing between the cars.
Are there any teams but Mercedes that are complaining about the new rules?

Big changes to car formula usually results in the field tightening up. I hope that is what happens and then like so many seasons before Pirelli, DRS etc the racing will take care of itself.
I believe the only teams in favour are McLaren, Red Bull and STR, engineers like Pat Symonds have said that more aero makes overtaking more difficult.
Force India and Ferrari are too. Though funnily enough Ferrari wanted to wait until the summer before agreeing. I'm sure you can work out why.

http://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/form ... gn=Formel1


ALL teams operate with self interest, I'll copy and paste a summary posted on another forum.

• Red Bull wanted these cars because they believe that they stil have the best aero department and that Newey is stil able to find solutions quicker than others (Slogan: "We prefer our solution, but most importantely it should be different")

• Toro Rosso is for it, because Red Bull is for it

• McLaren is creating an less radical concept for having an experience advantage

• Force India is for it (despite the huge costs), because they believe that Haas will have big struggles to builed a new car without extra wind tunnel time and without Ferrari help

• Mercedes didnt wanted it, simply because nobody would want to give a big advantage away

• Ferrari would have prefered to wait until summer:If they are far away from Merc in the summer, then Marchionne would have supported the 2017 cars as well.

• Regarding head protection: In reality none of the teams care about head protection, but they dont dare to say anything, because it is about safety. Red Bull is lobbying their solution just because they expect to have big aero advantages. Thats why everyone else will prefer halo....

• Regarding fuel limit: the Mercedes teams argueing about efficiency, but in reality they dont want to give up their big advantage.

• The current tyre rules are compromised: the original idea was to chose 3 tyre compounds out of 5. Reasons why it didnt happened: not only Pirelli being afraid that teams might try dangerous things. The big teams because they feared that a midfield team could builed an tyre saving car. The fact that the suggestion came from Force India was prove enough for them....

• Red Bull and Toro Rosso didnt wanted the new engine regulations on principle. They want back to 2013, not becuase it is good for F1 (the sound excuse), but because aero would become more important again

• McLaren didnt wanted it either, even if the end of the token system should be suppostely good for them. But Dennis doesnt want to be forced to give an other team the same engine (while Honda wants btw)

• Force India and Sauber are thinking that the engines are not cheap enough

• Mercedes can perfectly live with the new engine rules: they stil get enough money and the free development doesnt mean that the others will have great ideas. And the equalization is actually in Mercedes hands, their advantage is big enough so that they can play with the gap to be within this limit (top 3 within 3 tenths)

Some pretty grim reading.
Yes all vested interests and nothing whatsoever to do with improving the racing on the track.

Regarding the engines how does that work, free development but the engines have to be equalised to within 3 tenths in performance, F1 is just plain nuts.
Lewis Hamilton #44

World Drivers Titles: 7 (1st)
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Re: Bit confused on different 2017 opinions

Post by Zoue »

pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:I think perhaps you are getting confused between two things, one is the teams protecting their own interests, another is the cars being able to race one another without being aerodynamically disadvantaged.

Maybe some are just so prefixed on seeing the end of the Mercedes domination that they can't see the wood for the trees?
Again, it's not me accusing others of being underhand here. You're laying that accusation at those taking one side of the argument, but you have no reason to believe that is the case other than that they conflict with Mercedes whose side you have clearly taken.

Alonso has also said he welcomes the 2017 rules and having faster cars. You may either choose to believe he sees it very differently to Hamilton, or you may conclude one of the two is lying (no prizes for guessing which). Personally, I've seen enough F1 technical rules made in good faith which have turned out to not produce the desired results to keep an open mind on 2017.
Alonso also says that overtaking isn't a priority, F1 has been down this road before it's just that some people seem to have short memories, the vast majority of drivers want race able cars.
...which the current ones aren't without artificial aids (DRS, whacky tyres etc). Several of the drivers at one point or another have expressed dissatisfaction with the current cars. I'm curious as to why you should think when Hamilton or Mercedes say something, then it must be truthful, while if McLaren or Alonso do, they must have ulterior motives?
Yes even with those artificial aids and cars that were designed with less down force to help with overtaking, overtaking is still a problem, Alonso has said he doesn't care how difficult it is to overtake, it should be difficult, welcome back to the Trulli train.
You still haven't explained why you feel that Red Bull and McLaren are engaging in disinformation while Mercedes is being open and honest.

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Re: Bit confused on different 2017 opinions

Post by pokerman »

Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote: Are there any teams but Mercedes that are complaining about the new rules?

Big changes to car formula usually results in the field tightening up. I hope that is what happens and then like so many seasons before Pirelli, DRS etc the racing will take care of itself.
I believe the only teams in favour are McLaren, Red Bull and STR, engineers like Pat Symonds have said that more aero makes overtaking more difficult.
Well Marko claimed a couple of weeks ago that Ferrari were also in favour of change. He said those fighting against were predominantly Mercedes and their customers
Can't Ferrari speak for themselves?
Don't know, you'd have to ask them. I'm not sure I understand your point, unless it's to deflect?
It means I would like to see Ferrari themselves say what they think, but anyway reading the post above it seems that Ferrari were just waiting to see if they could catch Mercedes up, they can't so yes let's change the rules, meanwhile will this make the racing better? Who cares?
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Re: Bit confused on different 2017 opinions

Post by Lotus49 »

pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:I think McLaren like Red Bull feel the new rules will favour them and are happy to give out misinformation about the quality of the racing between the cars.
Are there any teams but Mercedes that are complaining about the new rules?

Big changes to car formula usually results in the field tightening up. I hope that is what happens and then like so many seasons before Pirelli, DRS etc the racing will take care of itself.
I believe the only teams in favour are McLaren, Red Bull and STR, engineers like Pat Symonds have said that more aero makes overtaking more difficult.
Force India and Ferrari are too. Though funnily enough Ferrari wanted to wait until the summer before agreeing. I'm sure you can work out why.

http://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/form ... gn=Formel1


ALL teams operate with self interest, I'll copy and paste a summary posted on another forum.

• Red Bull wanted these cars because they believe that they stil have the best aero department and that Newey is stil able to find solutions quicker than others (Slogan: "We prefer our solution, but most importantely it should be different")

• Toro Rosso is for it, because Red Bull is for it

• McLaren is creating an less radical concept for having an experience advantage

• Force India is for it (despite the huge costs), because they believe that Haas will have big struggles to builed a new car without extra wind tunnel time and without Ferrari help

• Mercedes didnt wanted it, simply because nobody would want to give a big advantage away

• Ferrari would have prefered to wait until summer:If they are far away from Merc in the summer, then Marchionne would have supported the 2017 cars as well.

• Regarding head protection: In reality none of the teams care about head protection, but they dont dare to say anything, because it is about safety. Red Bull is lobbying their solution just because they expect to have big aero advantages. Thats why everyone else will prefer halo....

• Regarding fuel limit: the Mercedes teams argueing about efficiency, but in reality they dont want to give up their big advantage.

• The current tyre rules are compromised: the original idea was to chose 3 tyre compounds out of 5. Reasons why it didnt happened: not only Pirelli being afraid that teams might try dangerous things. The big teams because they feared that a midfield team could builed an tyre saving car. The fact that the suggestion came from Force India was prove enough for them....

• Red Bull and Toro Rosso didnt wanted the new engine regulations on principle. They want back to 2013, not becuase it is good for F1 (the sound excuse), but because aero would become more important again

• McLaren didnt wanted it either, even if the end of the token system should be suppostely good for them. But Dennis doesnt want to be forced to give an other team the same engine (while Honda wants btw)

• Force India and Sauber are thinking that the engines are not cheap enough

• Mercedes can perfectly live with the new engine rules: they stil get enough money and the free development doesnt mean that the others will have great ideas. And the equalization is actually in Mercedes hands, their advantage is big enough so that they can play with the gap to be within this limit (top 3 within 3 tenths)

Some pretty grim reading.
Yes all vested interests and nothing whatsoever to do with improving the racing on the track.

Regarding the engines how does that work, free development but the engines have to be equalised to within 3 tenths in performance, F1 is just plain nuts.
Absolutely, and Mercedes just as much as anyone.

Agree, it's nuts.
"Clark came through at the end of the first lap so far ahead that we in the pits were convinced that the rest of the field must have been wiped out in an accident."
-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967

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Re: Bit confused on different 2017 opinions

Post by pokerman »

Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote: It's not misinformation at all actually, everything he describes there is factually correct. That however doesn't mean that..

a) Pirelli will deliver on better tyres
b) Teams won't deliberately design their cars to make following the car harder as certain teams currently do.

If they can do A and don't do B it can be exactly as Eric describes there.

Toto however, and everyone else scaremongering about the effects of dirty air, continuously leave out the fact we are getting bigger more durable tyres to help generate way more mechanical grip than we have now. They just describe the effects of dirty air on the current boots and scream about adding more aero and it will be worse.

Now that is classic misinformation.
Tyres in the past were perfectly good enough for the job in hand but they couldn't overcome the aerodynamic wake.
Nothing can.
You agree with me so I'm lost to what argument you were making? :?
It's right there in the post you quoted.

You can't ever overcome wake completely but it doesn't mean next year will be the worst it's ever been like Toto is telling you. He's describing what it would be like on these boots while ignoring the new tyres.
I still don't see what difference they will make, during the tyre war they couldn't overcome the aerodynamic turbulence to produce good racing, do you think Pirelli will have the answer?
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Re: Bit confused on different 2017 opinions

Post by pokerman »

Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:Again, it's not me accusing others of being underhand here. You're laying that accusation at those taking one side of the argument, but you have no reason to believe that is the case other than that they conflict with Mercedes whose side you have clearly taken.

Alonso has also said he welcomes the 2017 rules and having faster cars. You may either choose to believe he sees it very differently to Hamilton, or you may conclude one of the two is lying (no prizes for guessing which). Personally, I've seen enough F1 technical rules made in good faith which have turned out to not produce the desired results to keep an open mind on 2017.
Alonso also says that overtaking isn't a priority, F1 has been down this road before it's just that some people seem to have short memories, the vast majority of drivers want race able cars.
...which the current ones aren't without artificial aids (DRS, whacky tyres etc). Several of the drivers at one point or another have expressed dissatisfaction with the current cars. I'm curious as to why you should think when Hamilton or Mercedes say something, then it must be truthful, while if McLaren or Alonso do, they must have ulterior motives?
Yes even with those artificial aids and cars that were designed with less down force to help with overtaking, overtaking is still a problem, Alonso has said he doesn't care how difficult it is to overtake, it should be difficult, welcome back to the Trulli train.
You still haven't explained why you feel that Red Bull and McLaren are engaging in disinformation while Mercedes is being open and honest.
I thought it was common knowledge that more down force leads to more wake and makes it harder to overtake.

Red Bull themselves are engineering themselves an advantage, their priority is winning and not the quality of the racing itself, I must admit I don't fully understand McLaren's stance on this but they do seem a team somewhat struggling and confused presently, a change of rules may lead to a change of fortune?
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Re: Bit confused on different 2017 opinions

Post by pokerman »

Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote: Are there any teams but Mercedes that are complaining about the new rules?

Big changes to car formula usually results in the field tightening up. I hope that is what happens and then like so many seasons before Pirelli, DRS etc the racing will take care of itself.
I believe the only teams in favour are McLaren, Red Bull and STR, engineers like Pat Symonds have said that more aero makes overtaking more difficult.
Force India and Ferrari are too. Though funnily enough Ferrari wanted to wait until the summer before agreeing. I'm sure you can work out why.

http://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/form ... gn=Formel1


ALL teams operate with self interest, I'll copy and paste a summary posted on another forum.

• Red Bull wanted these cars because they believe that they stil have the best aero department and that Newey is stil able to find solutions quicker than others (Slogan: "We prefer our solution, but most importantely it should be different")

• Toro Rosso is for it, because Red Bull is for it

• McLaren is creating an less radical concept for having an experience advantage

• Force India is for it (despite the huge costs), because they believe that Haas will have big struggles to builed a new car without extra wind tunnel time and without Ferrari help

• Mercedes didnt wanted it, simply because nobody would want to give a big advantage away

• Ferrari would have prefered to wait until summer:If they are far away from Merc in the summer, then Marchionne would have supported the 2017 cars as well.

• Regarding head protection: In reality none of the teams care about head protection, but they dont dare to say anything, because it is about safety. Red Bull is lobbying their solution just because they expect to have big aero advantages. Thats why everyone else will prefer halo....

• Regarding fuel limit: the Mercedes teams argueing about efficiency, but in reality they dont want to give up their big advantage.

• The current tyre rules are compromised: the original idea was to chose 3 tyre compounds out of 5. Reasons why it didnt happened: not only Pirelli being afraid that teams might try dangerous things. The big teams because they feared that a midfield team could builed an tyre saving car. The fact that the suggestion came from Force India was prove enough for them....

• Red Bull and Toro Rosso didnt wanted the new engine regulations on principle. They want back to 2013, not becuase it is good for F1 (the sound excuse), but because aero would become more important again

• McLaren didnt wanted it either, even if the end of the token system should be suppostely good for them. But Dennis doesnt want to be forced to give an other team the same engine (while Honda wants btw)

• Force India and Sauber are thinking that the engines are not cheap enough

• Mercedes can perfectly live with the new engine rules: they stil get enough money and the free development doesnt mean that the others will have great ideas. And the equalization is actually in Mercedes hands, their advantage is big enough so that they can play with the gap to be within this limit (top 3 within 3 tenths)

Some pretty grim reading.
Yes all vested interests and nothing whatsoever to do with improving the racing on the track.

Regarding the engines how does that work, free development but the engines have to be equalised to within 3 tenths in performance, F1 is just plain nuts.
Absolutely, and Mercedes just as much as anyone.

Agree, it's nuts.
Maybe so but I see it as Mercedes just stating the plain bl___y obvious.
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Re: Bit confused on different 2017 opinions

Post by Lotus49 »

pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
Nothing can.
You agree with me so I'm lost to what argument you were making? :?
It's right there in the post you quoted.

You can't ever overcome wake completely but it doesn't mean next year will be the worst it's ever been like Toto is telling you. He's describing what it would be like on these boots while ignoring the new tyres.
I still don't see what difference they will make, during the tyre war they couldn't overcome the aerodynamic turbulence to produce good racing, do you think Pirelli will have the answer?
It's not that they'll make it better per se but that it might not be any worse than it's ever been or even is now.

It's not like it's great now and Mercedes are worried it will get bad all of a sudden. Or even that they tabled a counter proposal with ground effect and monster truck tyres but the FIA went with Macca's.

They wanted no change at all, so obviously better racing was never an option. And it's really obvious why they wanted no change and it's got nothing to do with better racing.
"Clark came through at the end of the first lap so far ahead that we in the pits were convinced that the rest of the field must have been wiped out in an accident."
-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967

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Re: Bit confused on different 2017 opinions

Post by pokerman »

Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
Nothing can.
You agree with me so I'm lost to what argument you were making? :?
It's right there in the post you quoted.

You can't ever overcome wake completely but it doesn't mean next year will be the worst it's ever been like Toto is telling you. He's describing what it would be like on these boots while ignoring the new tyres.
I still don't see what difference they will make, during the tyre war they couldn't overcome the aerodynamic turbulence to produce good racing, do you think Pirelli will have the answer?
It's not that they'll make it better per se but that it might not be any worse than it's ever been or even is now.

It's not like it's great now and Mercedes are worried it will get bad all of a sudden. Or even that they tabled a counter proposal with ground effect and monster truck tyres but the FIA went with Macca's.

They wanted no change at all, so obviously better racing was never an option. And it's really obvious why they wanted no change and it's got nothing to do with better racing.
Well I don't know how many times I need to repeat this more down force leads to worse racing, it seems that the vested interests of both teams and fans means they don't care so long as things change in the running order and if we say it won't be bad then it won't be bad.
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Re: Bit confused on different 2017 opinions

Post by Lotus49 »

pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote: I believe the only teams in favour are McLaren, Red Bull and STR, engineers like Pat Symonds have said that more aero makes overtaking more difficult.
Force India and Ferrari are too. Though funnily enough Ferrari wanted to wait until the summer before agreeing. I'm sure you can work out why.

http://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/form ... gn=Formel1


ALL teams operate with self interest, I'll copy and paste a summary posted on another forum.

• Red Bull wanted these cars because they believe that they stil have the best aero department and that Newey is stil able to find solutions quicker than others (Slogan: "We prefer our solution, but most importantely it should be different")

• Toro Rosso is for it, because Red Bull is for it

• McLaren is creating an less radical concept for having an experience advantage

• Force India is for it (despite the huge costs), because they believe that Haas will have big struggles to builed a new car without extra wind tunnel time and without Ferrari help

• Mercedes didnt wanted it, simply because nobody would want to give a big advantage away

• Ferrari would have prefered to wait until summer:If they are far away from Merc in the summer, then Marchionne would have supported the 2017 cars as well.

• Regarding head protection: In reality none of the teams care about head protection, but they dont dare to say anything, because it is about safety. Red Bull is lobbying their solution just because they expect to have big aero advantages. Thats why everyone else will prefer halo....

• Regarding fuel limit: the Mercedes teams argueing about efficiency, but in reality they dont want to give up their big advantage.

• The current tyre rules are compromised: the original idea was to chose 3 tyre compounds out of 5. Reasons why it didnt happened: not only Pirelli being afraid that teams might try dangerous things. The big teams because they feared that a midfield team could builed an tyre saving car. The fact that the suggestion came from Force India was prove enough for them....

• Red Bull and Toro Rosso didnt wanted the new engine regulations on principle. They want back to 2013, not becuase it is good for F1 (the sound excuse), but because aero would become more important again

• McLaren didnt wanted it either, even if the end of the token system should be suppostely good for them. But Dennis doesnt want to be forced to give an other team the same engine (while Honda wants btw)

• Force India and Sauber are thinking that the engines are not cheap enough

• Mercedes can perfectly live with the new engine rules: they stil get enough money and the free development doesnt mean that the others will have great ideas. And the equalization is actually in Mercedes hands, their advantage is big enough so that they can play with the gap to be within this limit (top 3 within 3 tenths)

Some pretty grim reading.
Yes all vested interests and nothing whatsoever to do with improving the racing on the track.

Regarding the engines how does that work, free development but the engines have to be equalised to within 3 tenths in performance, F1 is just plain nuts.
Absolutely, and Mercedes just as much as anyone.

Agree, it's nuts.
Maybe so but I see it as Mercedes just stating the plain bl___y obvious.
Except they're not. They're describing what would happen if you added a bunch of extra aero to current cars with current tyres.

They're completely ignoring the big increase in mechanical grip being added which will*/should*/could* help balance out any increase in wake and give the driver more grip.


*Pick one depending on how much faith you have in Pirelli.
"Clark came through at the end of the first lap so far ahead that we in the pits were convinced that the rest of the field must have been wiped out in an accident."
-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967

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Re: Bit confused on different 2017 opinions

Post by pokerman »

Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:Force India and Ferrari are too. Though funnily enough Ferrari wanted to wait until the summer before agreeing. I'm sure you can work out why.

http://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/form ... gn=Formel1


ALL teams operate with self interest, I'll copy and paste a summary posted on another forum.

• Red Bull wanted these cars because they believe that they stil have the best aero department and that Newey is stil able to find solutions quicker than others (Slogan: "We prefer our solution, but most importantely it should be different")

• Toro Rosso is for it, because Red Bull is for it

• McLaren is creating an less radical concept for having an experience advantage

• Force India is for it (despite the huge costs), because they believe that Haas will have big struggles to builed a new car without extra wind tunnel time and without Ferrari help

• Mercedes didnt wanted it, simply because nobody would want to give a big advantage away

• Ferrari would have prefered to wait until summer:If they are far away from Merc in the summer, then Marchionne would have supported the 2017 cars as well.

• Regarding head protection: In reality none of the teams care about head protection, but they dont dare to say anything, because it is about safety. Red Bull is lobbying their solution just because they expect to have big aero advantages. Thats why everyone else will prefer halo....

• Regarding fuel limit: the Mercedes teams argueing about efficiency, but in reality they dont want to give up their big advantage.

• The current tyre rules are compromised: the original idea was to chose 3 tyre compounds out of 5. Reasons why it didnt happened: not only Pirelli being afraid that teams might try dangerous things. The big teams because they feared that a midfield team could builed an tyre saving car. The fact that the suggestion came from Force India was prove enough for them....

• Red Bull and Toro Rosso didnt wanted the new engine regulations on principle. They want back to 2013, not becuase it is good for F1 (the sound excuse), but because aero would become more important again

• McLaren didnt wanted it either, even if the end of the token system should be suppostely good for them. But Dennis doesnt want to be forced to give an other team the same engine (while Honda wants btw)

• Force India and Sauber are thinking that the engines are not cheap enough

• Mercedes can perfectly live with the new engine rules: they stil get enough money and the free development doesnt mean that the others will have great ideas. And the equalization is actually in Mercedes hands, their advantage is big enough so that they can play with the gap to be within this limit (top 3 within 3 tenths)

Some pretty grim reading.
Yes all vested interests and nothing whatsoever to do with improving the racing on the track.

Regarding the engines how does that work, free development but the engines have to be equalised to within 3 tenths in performance, F1 is just plain nuts.
Absolutely, and Mercedes just as much as anyone.

Agree, it's nuts.
Maybe so but I see it as Mercedes just stating the plain bl___y obvious.
Except they're not. They're describing what would happen if you added a bunch of extra aero to current cars with current tyres.

They're completely ignoring the big increase in mechanical grip being added which will*/should*/could* help balance out any increase in wake and give the driver more grip.


*Pick one depending on how much faith you have in Pirelli.
Like I said how did this work out in the past, Trulli train etc.?

There is no scientific evidence whatsoever that has gone into this, ask Pat Symonds.

The engineers will put forward ideas on how to make the racing better based on science but this gets taken over by political agendas.
Lewis Hamilton #44

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Zoue
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Re: Bit confused on different 2017 opinions

Post by Zoue »

pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:Alonso also says that overtaking isn't a priority, F1 has been down this road before it's just that some people seem to have short memories, the vast majority of drivers want race able cars.
...which the current ones aren't without artificial aids (DRS, whacky tyres etc). Several of the drivers at one point or another have expressed dissatisfaction with the current cars. I'm curious as to why you should think when Hamilton or Mercedes say something, then it must be truthful, while if McLaren or Alonso do, they must have ulterior motives?
Yes even with those artificial aids and cars that were designed with less down force to help with overtaking, overtaking is still a problem, Alonso has said he doesn't care how difficult it is to overtake, it should be difficult, welcome back to the Trulli train.
You still haven't explained why you feel that Red Bull and McLaren are engaging in disinformation while Mercedes is being open and honest.
I thought it was common knowledge that more down force leads to more wake and makes it harder to overtake.

Red Bull themselves are engineering themselves an advantage, their priority is winning and not the quality of the racing itself, I must admit I don't fully understand McLaren's stance on this but they do seem a team somewhat struggling and confused presently, a change of rules may lead to a change of fortune?
Depends on a number of things. The more cars are reliant on aero, the more sensitive they become to dirty air. But if they have increased mechanical grip and non-aero generated downforce, then it's my understanding - as an interested layman - that this will not make it harder to follow, which is the main gripe currently.

As to the rest, I can't believe anyone would be that naive that they wouldn't think every team would prioritise winning over the quality of the racing. Do you honestly think that Mercedes would willingly hand in their advantage if they thought it would lead to better racing for everybody? Please.

It's natural that Mercedes would be against any change, as they stand the most to lose. It's equally natural that a team like Red Bull, who don't have the advantage of a Works package, would vote for any change that reduced the advantage of the PU. Both have vested interests and therefore both will come up with arguments in favour of their position. It doesn't necessarily mean they are being disingenuous. Everyone votes for what's best for them first and the sport a distant second.

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Re: Bit confused on different 2017 opinions

Post by Zoue »

pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:Yes all vested interests and nothing whatsoever to do with improving the racing on the track.

Regarding the engines how does that work, free development but the engines have to be equalised to within 3 tenths in performance, F1 is just plain nuts.
Absolutely, and Mercedes just as much as anyone.

Agree, it's nuts.
Maybe so but I see it as Mercedes just stating the plain bl___y obvious.
Except they're not. They're describing what would happen if you added a bunch of extra aero to current cars with current tyres.

They're completely ignoring the big increase in mechanical grip being added which will*/should*/could* help balance out any increase in wake and give the driver more grip.


*Pick one depending on how much faith you have in Pirelli.
Like I said how did this work out in the past, Trulli train etc.?

There is no scientific evidence whatsoever that has gone into this, ask Pat Symonds.

The engineers will put forward ideas on how to make the racing better based on science but this gets taken over by political agendas.
Simplistic. The Trulli train was the result of a very specific set of regulations. You can't just say that changing one thing would revert to that

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Re: Bit confused on different 2017 opinions

Post by Black_Flag_11 »

Wait so a team currently lagging behind is in favour of a rule change while the team that is currently dominating is against changes to the formula...

Who would've thought it?

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Re: Bit confused on different 2017 opinions

Post by Lotus49 »

pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote: Yes all vested interests and nothing whatsoever to do with improving the racing on the track.

Regarding the engines how does that work, free development but the engines have to be equalised to within 3 tenths in performance, F1 is just plain nuts.
Absolutely, and Mercedes just as much as anyone.

Agree, it's nuts.
Maybe so but I see it as Mercedes just stating the plain bl___y obvious.
Except they're not. They're describing what would happen if you added a bunch of extra aero to current cars with current tyres.

They're completely ignoring the big increase in mechanical grip being added which will*/should*/could* help balance out any increase in wake and give the driver more grip.


*Pick one depending on how much faith you have in Pirelli.
Like I said how did this work out in the past, Trulli train etc.?

There is no scientific evidence whatsoever that has gone into this, ask Pat Symonds.

The engineers will put forward ideas on how to make the racing better based on science but this gets taken over by political agendas.
What are you talking about the past for?. Are you under the impression we currently have a formula where the cars don't suffer from wake or something?.

There was never a proposal to improve the effect of aerodynamic wake as far as i'm aware. It was either leave as is or the proposal from McLaren/Red Bull.

Mercedes want as is, not improvement. And they scaremonger about next year by talking about the increase in wake, compared to last and this year. They repeatedly and quite deliberately fail to mention the extra mechanical grip which could easily help cancel out any extra wake if Pirelli deliver with their tyres.

Leaving us as is in terms of difficulty in passing.
"Clark came through at the end of the first lap so far ahead that we in the pits were convinced that the rest of the field must have been wiped out in an accident."
-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967

mikeyg123
Posts: 18468
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:13 pm

Re: Bit confused on different 2017 opinions

Post by mikeyg123 »

pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:I think McLaren like Red Bull feel the new rules will favour them and are happy to give out misinformation about the quality of the racing between the cars.
Are there any teams but Mercedes that are complaining about the new rules?

Big changes to car formula usually results in the field tightening up. I hope that is what happens and then like so many seasons before Pirelli, DRS etc the racing will take care of itself.
I believe the only teams in favour are McLaren, Red Bull and STR, engineers like Pat Symonds have said that more aero makes overtaking more difficult.
Overtaking will be made more difficult. I don't think there is much doubt over that. Overtaking was really difficult in previous superb seasons though.

Rockie
Posts: 2316
Joined: Wed Nov 27, 2013 11:13 am

Re: Bit confused on different 2017 opinions

Post by Rockie »

Overtaking should not be easy, and if the new rules bring that all well and good!

But F1 can not afford to continue with the current rules its just ridiculous.

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