Margin between the Red Bull guys in Spain

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Q2/Q3 - Daniel Ricciardo to be..

Poll ended at Fri May 13, 2016 9:26 pm

Over 0.7 quicker
4
6%
0.5-0.7 quicker
10
15%
0.3-0.5 quicker
24
35%
0.1-0.3 quicker
23
34%
less than 0.1 quicker
1
1%
less than 0.1 slower
1
1%
0.1-0.3 slower
4
6%
0.3-0.5 slower
0
No votes
0.5-0.7 slower
0
No votes
Over 0.7 slower
1
1%
 
Total votes: 68

Ennis
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Re: Margin between the Red Bull guys in Spain

Post by Ennis »

pokerman wrote:
iano wrote:
pokerman wrote: I would say that if Max fails and Ricciardo gets poached then Red Bull are in big trouble regarding drivers.
I think most teams would be in big trouble regarding drivers if one driver fails and the other leaves.

Red Bull, having the Toro Rosso second team, are possible better placed than most though.
You mean the back up guys that are slower than Ricciardo and Max?
I don't think he's saying Red Bull are in no trouble if they leave, just less so than other teams due to Toro Rosso.

Pullrod
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Re: Margin between the Red Bull guys in Spain

Post by Pullrod »

pokerman wrote:
iano wrote:
pokerman wrote: I would say that if Max fails and Ricciardo gets poached then Red Bull are in big trouble regarding drivers.
I think most teams would be in big trouble regarding drivers if one driver fails and the other leaves.

Red Bull, having the Toro Rosso second team, are possible better placed than most though.
You mean the back up guys that are slower than Ricciardo and Max?
I think SAI is not slower than VES, at least in pure speed. Someone has to watch qualifying with live timing to see it. More often than not, it is SAI who fails to put his fastest sector times together.

SAI also has better starts but struggle to pass cars and keep life on his tyres.
It is also my impression that psychologically, SAI is not very strong.

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Blinky McSquinty
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Re: Margin between the Red Bull guys in Spain

Post by Blinky McSquinty »

Herb wrote:Sorry to go back to this, but this article far more eloquently puts across my point about changing from one team to another and the systems challenges Verstappen will face, Magnussen won't have had many of these issues:

http://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/tech- ... ce-735186/
THIS

I have been attempting to describe the differences apart from the actual mechanical car. These days a Formula One car is more like a rolling data center, and a driver must be a systems manager. Although software is software, going from one car to another is just like going from a Windows based PC to a Mac. You can do it, but it takes awhile before you become adept and comfortable.

In a racing car the driver is busy and his attention should be 100% on the road ahead. So with a modern Formula One car the driver attempts to train his body (muscle memory and such) so that any car changes happen almost on the subconscious level, they shouldn't even have to ponder what to do, it should happen almost automatically. Such simple things as failing to engage the pit speed limiter could happen to Verstappen until he trains his brain and body to perform such tasks more fluently.

There is also the basic fact that each car is different in handling characteristics, and each driver has different driving styles and preferences. A lot of people poo pooed Sebastien Bourdais, he looked pathetic when compared to Vettel. But once released from STR, Bourdais complained that the car was set up for Vettel, with a strong tendency for oversteer. This was something Bourdais was not comfortable with, and contributed to the perception he sucked. Which is strange, because in CART he was a monster, very quick.

I'm not making any preemptive excuses for Verstappen, he knows what shark tank he is jumping into. But if a car's fundamental handling characteristics are contrary to any driver's basic preferences, he can never be totally comfortable with the car, and able to extract everything the machine has to offer.

This following video illustrates what can happen when a driver gets a car that suits his style. Vettel prefers a car with oversteer, and is thus able to get the car to rotate when and where he desires. It is similar to two tennis pros who use the same racket, yet have different string tensions. Each has found their comfort zone, and can thus preform in a more natural and less thoughtful manner.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A09vlmgw9HE
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RaggedMan
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Re: Margin between the Red Bull guys in Spain

Post by RaggedMan »

Blinky McSquinty wrote:
Herb wrote:Sorry to go back to this, but this article far more eloquently puts across my point about changing from one team to another and the systems challenges Verstappen will face, Magnussen won't have had many of these issues:

http://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/tech- ... ce-735186/
THIS

I have been attempting to describe the differences apart from the actual mechanical car. These days a Formula One car is more like a rolling data center, and a driver must be a systems manager. Although software is software, going from one car to another is just like going from a Windows based PC to a Mac. You can do it, but it takes awhile before you become adept and comfortable.

In a racing car the driver is busy and his attention should be 100% on the road ahead. So with a modern Formula One car the driver attempts to train his body (muscle memory and such) so that any car changes happen almost on the subconscious level, they shouldn't even have to ponder what to do, it should happen almost automatically. Such simple things as failing to engage the pit speed limiter could happen to Verstappen until he trains his brain and body to perform such tasks more fluently.

There is also the basic fact that each car is different in handling characteristics, and each driver has different driving styles and preferences. A lot of people poo pooed Sebastien Bourdais, he looked pathetic when compared to Vettel. But once released from STR, Bourdais complained that the car was set up for Vettel, with a strong tendency for oversteer. This was something Bourdais was not comfortable with, and contributed to the perception he sucked. Which is strange, because in CART he was a monster, very quick.

I'm not making any preemptive excuses for Verstappen, he knows what shark tank he is jumping into. But if a car's fundamental handling characteristics are contrary to any driver's basic preferences, he can never be totally comfortable with the car, and able to extract everything the machine has to offer.

This following video illustrates what can happen when a driver gets a car that suits his style. Vettel prefers a car with oversteer, and is thus able to get the car to rotate when and where he desires. It is similar to two tennis pros who use the same racket, yet have different string tensions. Each has found their comfort zone, and can thus preform in a more natural and less thoughtful manner.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A09vlmgw9HE
Like Hamilton (and somebody else who I can't remember right now) pulling into their old teams pit during their first year with a new team.

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slide
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Re: Margin between the Red Bull guys in Spain

Post by slide »

carlos sainz was the quickest red bull driver out of the 4 in practice 2

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Black_Flag_11
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Re: Margin between the Red Bull guys in Spain

Post by Black_Flag_11 »

slide wrote:carlos sainz was the quickest red bull driver out of the 4 in practice 2
Hardly representative of their overall pace IMO. I think both Toro Rosso cars should be behind both Red Bulls comfortably on Saturday/Sunday.

He does seem to have an upper hand on Kvyat on pace though which ties nicely with Verstappen being closer to Ricciardo so far than Kvyat was.

Let's see, early days yet (and only practice!) but if this trend keeps up then I'd be willing to say maybe Red Bull are right, and Max really is going to be that big. If that is the case hopefully another team will see the quality of Sainz and pick him up because I don't think there's a real place for him at Red Bull with Ricciardo and Verstappen making a very strong lineup.

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Re: Margin between the Red Bull guys in Spain

Post by pokerman »

Pullrod wrote:
pokerman wrote:
iano wrote:
pokerman wrote: I would say that if Max fails and Ricciardo gets poached then Red Bull are in big trouble regarding drivers.
I think most teams would be in big trouble regarding drivers if one driver fails and the other leaves.

Red Bull, having the Toro Rosso second team, are possible better placed than most though.
You mean the back up guys that are slower than Ricciardo and Max?
I think SAI is not slower than VES, at least in pure speed. Someone has to watch qualifying with live timing to see it. More often than not, it is SAI who fails to put his fastest sector times together.

SAI also has better starts but struggle to pass cars and keep life on his tyres.
It is also my impression that psychologically, SAI is not very strong.
No not slower in qualifying but in the races Max always looks quicker.
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Zoue
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Re: Margin between the Red Bull guys in Spain

Post by Zoue »

Black_Flag_11 wrote:
slide wrote:carlos sainz was the quickest red bull driver out of the 4 in practice 2
Hardly representative of their overall pace IMO. I think both Toro Rosso cars should be behind both Red Bulls comfortably on Saturday/Sunday.

He does seem to have an upper hand on Kvyat on pace though which ties nicely with Verstappen being closer to Ricciardo so far than Kvyat was.

Let's see, early days yet (and only practice!) but if this trend keeps up then I'd be willing to say maybe Red Bull are right, and Max really is going to be that big. If that is the case hopefully another team will see the quality of Sainz and pick him up because I don't think there's a real place for him at Red Bull with Ricciardo and Verstappen making a very strong lineup.
Agreed. I'd add that on pace at least there isn't much between Sainz and Verstappen.

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Re: Margin between the Red Bull guys in Spain

Post by pokerman »

Black_Flag_11 wrote:
slide wrote:carlos sainz was the quickest red bull driver out of the 4 in practice 2
Hardly representative of their overall pace IMO. I think both Toro Rosso cars should be behind both Red Bulls comfortably on Saturday/Sunday.

He does seem to have an upper hand on Kvyat on pace though which ties nicely with Verstappen being closer to Ricciardo so far than Kvyat was.

Let's see, early days yet (and only practice!) but if this trend keeps up then I'd be willing to say maybe Red Bull are right, and Max really is going to be that big. If that is the case hopefully another team will see the quality of Sainz and pick him up because I don't think there's a real place for him at Red Bull with Ricciardo and Verstappen making a very strong lineup.
I think we need really to see how qualifying plays out first when drivers are running to their absolute maximum.
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infi24r
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Re: Margin between the Red Bull guys in Spain

Post by infi24r »

Black_Flag_11 wrote:
slide wrote:carlos sainz was the quickest red bull driver out of the 4 in practice 2
Hardly representative of their overall pace IMO. I think both Toro Rosso cars should be behind both Red Bulls comfortably on Saturday/Sunday.

He does seem to have an upper hand on Kvyat on pace though which ties nicely with Verstappen being closer to Ricciardo so far than Kvyat was.

Let's see, early days yet (and only practice!) but if this trend keeps up then I'd be willing to say maybe Red Bull are right, and Max really is going to be that big. If that is the case hopefully another team will see the quality of Sainz and pick him up because I don't think there's a real place for him at Red Bull with Ricciardo and Verstappen making a very strong lineup.
My general impression is Ricciardo always seems to find a couple of tenths when push comes to shove in qualifying. It was quite regular for Kvyat to be ahead or equal to him in practice and come qualifying the margins bloat out.

I would also say Spain is one of his weaker tracks. Kvyat outqualified him last year at this venue.

I would say so far Max has performed more or less how you would expect hasn't he? A couple of tenths off generally. Of course, its just practice, its ultimately meaningless. They'll come with much better bed in cars for Quali.

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Re: Margin between the Red Bull guys in Spain

Post by purchville »

Got it right :)
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Re: Margin between the Red Bull guys in Spain

Post by Black_Flag_11 »

Same here, I have to say I expected Verstappen to be completely lost in qualifying though, he impressed me a lot today.

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Re: Margin between the Red Bull guys in Spain

Post by mcdo »

Dan a tenth quicker than I voted for. Some lap
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purchville
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Re: Margin between the Red Bull guys in Spain

Post by purchville »

Black_Flag_11 wrote:Same here, I have to say I expected Verstappen to be completely lost in qualifying though, he impressed me a lot today.
Likewise. Impressive from Max, and great signs from Red Bull in general, esp. with a PU upgrade coming for Canada. Potential RBR pole position/race win in Monaco at this rate.

Ferrari seem a bit shell-shocked.
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Re: Margin between the Red Bull guys in Spain

Post by lamo »

0.4 seems the margin that just about everybody can be happy with.

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Re: Margin between the Red Bull guys in Spain

Post by IDrinkYourMilkshake »

I voted 0.3 to 0.5 seconds quicker for Ricciardo, got it right. :D

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Covalent
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Re: Margin between the Red Bull guys in Spain

Post by Covalent »

Yup me too.

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Re: Margin between the Red Bull guys in Spain

Post by pokerman »

On the money this time :)
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simonr23
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Re: Margin between the Red Bull guys in Spain

Post by simonr23 »

How many of you were strawberry bricks that verstappen might actually smash him? After the rest of today's running, I was nervous.

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moby
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Re: Margin between the Red Bull guys in Spain

Post by moby »

Getting a time when the other cars are not stopping you passing is easier than doing it in a race, here we will see who comes out ahead.

I really am not sure about this, as Max is ruthless and will go for it. He will probably be infront or in the barrier.

TBH, I am surprised how close Max was to beating Dan, which I thought he had for a long time.

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Re: Margin between the Red Bull guys in Spain

Post by mikeyg123 »

moby wrote:Getting a time when the other cars are not stopping you passing is easier than doing it in a race, here we will see who comes out ahead.

I really am not sure about this, as Max is ruthless and will go for it. He will probably be infront or in the barrier.

TBH, I am surprised how close Max was to beating Dan, which I thought he had for a long time.
4 tenths is quite a big gap. It's pretty unusual to be 4 tenths slower than your team mate but end up right behind them.

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moby
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Re: Margin between the Red Bull guys in Spain

Post by moby »

mikeyg123 wrote:
moby wrote:Getting a time when the other cars are not stopping you passing is easier than doing it in a race, here we will see who comes out ahead.

I really am not sure about this, as Max is ruthless and will go for it. He will probably be infront or in the barrier.

TBH, I am surprised how close Max was to beating Dan, which I thought he had for a long time.
4 tenths is quite a big gap. It's pretty unusual to be 4 tenths slower than your team mate but end up right behind them.
Admittedly. But, and there is only my feelings on this, I do feel Dan was "driving out of his skin" because Max was so close to him.
I know he could not go any faster than he can go, but I still think he squeezed every thousandth out of that lap.

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Re: Margin between the Red Bull guys in Spain

Post by POBRatings »

Kvyat and Verstappen being slower than their new team-mates in Spain: Blinky's explanation above is spot=on, new cars take some while to get used to.

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Re: Margin between the Red Bull guys in Spain

Post by mikeyg123 »

moby wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
moby wrote:Getting a time when the other cars are not stopping you passing is easier than doing it in a race, here we will see who comes out ahead.

I really am not sure about this, as Max is ruthless and will go for it. He will probably be infront or in the barrier.

TBH, I am surprised how close Max was to beating Dan, which I thought he had for a long time.
4 tenths is quite a big gap. It's pretty unusual to be 4 tenths slower than your team mate but end up right behind them.
Admittedly. But, and there is only my feelings on this, I do feel Dan was "driving out of his skin" because Max was so close to him.
I know he could not go any faster than he can go, but I still think he squeezed every thousandth out of that lap.
I agree and I also thought Max's performance was very impressive. Let's not forget that Ricciardo traditionally slaughters his team mates in quali.

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