Could RBR send Kvyat to STR mid season?

[moby]

Maybe some extra pressure from "dad" while highlighting DK's inexperience? the reason given for not putting Max in a RBR this year?

[F1_Ernie]

He will be driving a completely different car with a different engine, supported by completely different people. There is a heck of a lot he has to learn, he doesn't have the off season to acclimate himself, he has just a few days before the next race. If Verstappen can even finish 15th it will be a small miracle, and if he gets any points the other teams will be lining up and make every attempt to poach a driver who can walk on water.

He's leaving a Formula 1 car, to drive another Formula 1 car. Hardly walking on water. I'm pretty sure if you stuck Dan into that Merc on Friday, he'd drive the wheels off it to a podium and perhaps even stick it on the top step.

Driving skills, yea. But these days you must be a systems manager just as well, and managing tire wear, ERS, engine parameters, lots and lots of little things that come only with time.

If Verstappen can finish 15th it will be a small miracle, you having a laugh? With no realibility or accidents he be in the top 10.
If you put Verstappen in the Merc for the next race he will most likely finish 2nd minimum.

[Bigbazz]

I really, really did not expect to see that happen. I stick by my words because I think it's the wrong thing to do, damn.

[theferret]

He will be driving a completely different car with a different engine, supported by completely different people. There is a heck of a lot he has to learn, he doesn't have the off season to acclimate himself, he has just a few days before the next race. If Verstappen can even finish 15th it will be a small miracle, and if he gets any points the other teams will be lining up and make every attempt to poach a driver who can walk on water.

He's leaving a Formula 1 car, to drive another Formula 1 car. Hardly walking on water. I'm pretty sure if you stuck Dan into that Merc on Friday, he'd drive the wheels off it to a podium and perhaps even stick it on the top step.

Driving skills, yea. But these days you must be a systems manager just as well, and managing tire wear, ERS, engine parameters, lots and lots of little things that come only with time.

If Verstappen can finish 15th it will be a small miracle, you having a laugh? With no realibility or accidents he be in the top 10.
If you put Verstappen in the Merc for the next race he will most likely finish 2nd minimum.

I disagree with both your points of view - you are being far too extreme. Verstappen 2nd minimum in a Mercedes? Hamilton had no reliability issue in Australia and only just finished 2nd. A bad start and Verstappen, around Spain, would have a tough time overtaking cars with high top speeds if he were driving a Mercedes. 2nd would certainly not be a given. And a miracle to finish 15th - though I agree a P15 is a possibility if he struggles to adapt - suggests you expect Verstappen, no matter how talented, to be around 1.5secs of the pace of his team-mate, and not to be able to utilise the Red Bulls innate good downforce to get a good result around a fairly high downforce track. You're putting too much of an emphasis on the change as though no one could cope with it.

First of all, Verstappen is a talented driver, and this season's Red Bull is a strong chassis with a fairly decent engine (in comparison to last year). It's certainly better than the Toro Rosso at the moment. So in theory, Verstappen should do well, and move up the grid. Driver + better car = better result right? Well...

Second of all, let us not forget the season Fisichella had after he moved to Ferrari in 2009. He was destroyed by Raikkonen from the outset - and this coming after he finished 2nd to the same driver at Spa, and kept pace with him all race in a FI. Driver + instability (e.g. change of car, team environment, necessity to build rapport with new colleagues) = inferior result right? Well...

Compare the two. This is not a simple case of "pick one, move along" - Max's performance will be determined by a combination of all these factors. If you kept the same job responsibilities and title, but moved to another company, are you going to be settled instantly? Very unlikely. At the same time, when the job is simply easier at the new company, are you going to perform better? Probably. One is constantly counterbalancing the other. And I haven't even mentioned pressure.

True, it is a lot harder for a driver to come in and drive the socks off a bad, difficult-to-handle car than it is for a driver to perform well in a car he's never driven before but which looks like it's "on rails" in the hands of its usual drivers. But a lot of drivers are very fickle: Raikkonen and Button are particularly sensitive to having cars that are setup the way they like, and really struggle to overcome an inherent dislike for a car characteristic that does not change over the course of a season. Even Hamilton struggled when he joined Mercedes because of the different brake material. Just because they're all F1 cars, doesn't mean any two are perfectly alike. And the same car doesn't even handle the same way at each circuit due to set up changes.

I think a good two recent comparisons which highlight how driver behaviour can drastically alter performance are Perez at the start of 2013 when he lost all that aggression in his driving, possibly because his late 2012 performances at Sauber raised some questions for McLaren, and Vergne in late 2014 after it was confirmed he'd be leaving Toro Rosso, and he got a whole lot more aggressive, and really put Kvyat in the shade.

Verstappen's performance will be dependent on how much pressure he is put under before the first race, and how quickly he can feel comfortable with this brand new car and this mostly-new-for-him team. They will expect certain things of him, and they will tell him so. How will he react to this? And how will his drive to showcase his reactions? Will he be eager to please straight away and therefore overdrive? Will he be keen to get in a few solid results and therefore reign in his aggression? Or will he be able to ignore all these changes, and drive just as before?

I'm inclined to agree a certain amount with Blinky, since Verstappen will certainly have a lot to learn. But he's show that he can adapt quickly already when he stepped into F3 and then into F1. It seems he would be less of a fickle driver than the likes of Kimi, who needs the car to suit his style to perform well. The only thing I am certain of is he will be behind Ricciardo in both qualifying and the race (unless Daniel has mechanical issues/crashes).

[F1 MERCENARY]

Ahaah!

Once again Athletes must show loyalty at all times to their organizations, but organizations show loyalty to no one but themselves! Kvyat has a contract in place so maybe he can take it to court, especially since it's pretty safe to say he's parting ways with Red Bull altogether for 2017. This type of thing could be far more damaging to a driver's career than on track incidents so if I were him, I'd be looking out fro myself first and foremost the same way the team is doing.

They could have intended to promote Verstappen to the mother team in 2017, but to place such scrutiny on the event's of the Russian GP when it was one mistake made by Kvyat and the other by Vettel in letting up is preposterous. Vettel can bitch and moan all he likes but he is not innocent in the incident unless his letting up was a result of the initial contact in turn 1, which I've not seen anything regarding anything of the sort. Kyat's not a dirty driver is rather solid but teams need to realize they are human and can make mistakes. And while Verstappen appears to have potential to be an elite talent, he's had moments where he's made mistakes, and furthermore, he's lashed out at his team over the radio as well as publicly AND has blatantly disregarded team orders. It will certainly be interesting to see how things unfold at RBTH if he pulls some of the same things with the team and Ricciardo. Daniel is a very nice guy but I think he might loose his cool if Verstappen pulls some of stunts with him and the team that he did with TR.

With the Toro Rosso looking pretty equal to the Red Bull at times, I hope the upgrades they have for Spain push them just ahead of Red Bull so Kvyat finishes ahead of both their cars. They already have a better engine, so the chassis just needs a wee bit to catch them up.

I just don't like how teams do this.

With Raikkonen's saying he's unsure about his future in F1 after his contract with Ferrari runs out, and Ricciardo unavailable, Kvyat would have 2 potential seats to occupy. Ferrari, which now more than ever would likely call up Grosjean to partner Vettel and Kvyat possibly taking his seat at Haas if they don't elect to take on an american driver… Cough Rossi! LOL

This is one of the most shocking developments in F1 since Spygate.

[Alienturnedhuman]

I keep seeing this comparison in this thread, but Max to Red Bull is nothing like Fisi to Ferrari is 2009. He went from the Force India a simple car (in F1 terms), to the Ferrari, which had the first generation of KERS on it and was incredibly difficult to learn how to master, as well as generally being a bit of a dog due to the early problems the teams had with weight distribution on the early KERS systems.

Max won't have to overcome such a fundamental difference in car design and complexity.

[pokerman]

I have to eat my words... apparently you can get demoted from RB to STR.

I find this move hard to believe. Max will probably be more of a hot head and probably will cause more accidents up front because hes ruthless and he's the kind of "you yield or we crash" driver

Following on from that, my hot tip for Barcelona is Max canoning into the side of Lewis on lap 1.
Considering all of Hamiltons misfortune, it would probably have shorter odds than Leicester did at the start of the year...and we all know how that ended.
Disclaimer: this isn't meant to start a Lewis discussion

In all seriousness, I echo most people's comments that this is all very surprising. Interesting times ahead.

Its incredible that all Kvyat did was a couple of bad weekends and he was involved 2 times in an accident with vettel, in which only one of them was his fault...

Which driver doesnt have a bad weekend and/or makes a mistake once in a while??

Red Bull have absolutely no mercy with their drivers.

After some more pondering, I think the question must be asked as to whether Kyvat felt/knew he was on borrowed time. It may explain his aggressive driving the last couple of weekends in an attempt to make something happen.

I believe he knew he had to beat Ricciardo to keep his seat, he couldn't out qualify him so his next best option was the first corner.

[pokerman]

As opposed to the glowing coverage and reports of Verstappens unprecedented sportsmanship and impeccable conduct since he has entered F1, including his latest magnanimous gestures towards his team and team mate is Australia.

I don't think RB give a frogs fat one for what Vettel thinks.

This whole thing strikes me as bizarre and a bit panicky. Kvyat's only 14 points behind Ricciardo, Verstappen's only 9 points ahead of Sainz & were only 4 races into the season.

Ah the points analogy again.

You got me on that one Pokerman.

I'm usually pretty big on not relying on points scored as a basis for an argument but it still seems weird to me.

Well dig deeper and you can see that Kvyat was light years behind Ricciardo in terms of speed.

[pokerman]

In many professional sport teams, if a player displays talent but make mistakes and/or requires further development, they send him/her back to the junior team. That person usually gets things straightened out and eventually returns to the "A" team. I have seen this in hockey, football, basketball, and many other disciplines.

Because Red Bull are in the enviable position where they have a glut of very talented drivers under contract, and a junior team (as far as driver development) they are making this driver change. Kvyat is a very talented driver, but obviously he has to get things sorted out in his head. In the last two races he has been overly aggressive, charging into drivers early in the race. But in Russia it not only set him back, but also crippled his teammate. And if there is any one inviolate rule in racing, you never damage your team mate.

Marko heads up controlling the drivers, and he said "It has become increasingly clear that Daniil Kvyat could not withstand the pressure from Daniel Ricciardo, and he has been over-driving the car." So Kvyat gets booted off the "A" team is sent back to the junior team and hopefully settles down and gets his head screwed on right.

So now Verstappen gets a try-out on the senior team. Since he has been driving very well this year and has displayed more maturity, he has collected more points than Sainz. Not that Sainz sucks, one day he may become a champion. It's just that Verstappen is the better candidate at this moment.

For Verstappen, he is being thrown into a very difficult situation. He will be driving a completely different car with a different engine, supported by completely different people. There is a heck of a lot he has to learn, he doesn't have the off season to acclimate himself, he has just a few days before the next race. If Verstappen can even finish 15th it will be a small miracle, and if he gets any points the other teams will be lining up and make every attempt to poach a driver who can walk on water.

With Red Bull nothing is set in concrete, they can move drivers around, and it is possible they may do it again. Formula One is not a charity, nor is it a social club. It is a ruthless competition where the good prosper and those found wanting are thrown to the sharks. Racing is a meritocracy, where performance and results are the only things that matter. No one is immune from this cruelty, even team owners can fall to the knife if they can't measure up.

Very much backs up what I have been saying but in a more detailed manner

[pokerman]

He will be driving a completely different car with a different engine, supported by completely different people. There is a heck of a lot he has to learn, he doesn't have the off season to acclimate himself, he has just a few days before the next race. If Verstappen can even finish 15th it will be a small miracle, and if he gets any points the other teams will be lining up and make every attempt to poach a driver who can walk on water.

He's leaving a Formula 1 car, to drive another Formula 1 car. Hardly walking on water. I'm pretty sure if you stuck Dan into that Merc on Friday, he'd drive the wheels off it to a podium and perhaps even stick it on the top step.

Driving skills, yea. But these days you must be a systems manager just as well, and managing tire wear, ERS, engine parameters, lots and lots of little things that come only with time.

If Verstappen can finish 15th it will be a small miracle, you having a laugh? With no realibility or accidents he be in the top 10.
If you put Verstappen in the Merc for the next race he will most likely finish 2nd minimum.

Yes that was the only part of the post I would be able to find any disagreement with.

[James14]

I have to say I thought this thread was a bit silly (full apologies Mr E!) when I first read it. I thought it was an over reaction to one very bad race for him. But how wrong I was.

What we do not know is what may have happened behind the scenes. On the face of it it seems an over reaction. If they are that unhappy with him why not just terminate his contract? It is one thing for STR to lose a driver through promotion to RBR (an affirmation of their collective hard work if you like) but I would be a bit annoyed at having to take back a driver deemed not good enough for RBR.

[Lotus49]

I pondered a swap deal with Kvyat and Verstappen a while ago but I didn't contemplate them doing it in the middle of the season. Hell it's not even the middle!. 4 races,ouch.

Feel for Kvyat but excited to see Max in a better car and up against a top driver. I think he'll do great but Danny will be stronger this year.

[Lentulus]

So looking at the rules, is it even possible?

Yes, the rules allow mid-season driver changes, with a maximum of 4 drivers allowed per team, per season.

This particular swap isn't likely, however.

It's more likely that Verstappen would be promoted to RBR during the season than it is that Kvyat would replace him at STR.
If little Max got promoted before the end of the season, it's likely that Gasly or Rowland would get the seat at STR for the last few races.

Well, I've been proved wrong many times in my life, but not normally so quickly

[TakumaSatoforthewin]

I think I would have less of a problem with this if Red Bull were open and stated how this move is to secure the services of a very talented driver instead of simply pinning the blame for demotion squarely on Kvyat. We know that's the case, they know that's a case so the cloak and dagger is really uncalled for. Personally I think Verstappen Snr and Jnr come across as a pair of self entitled tosspots but like it or not, Max is supremely talented and the battle with him an Ricciardo given time will be THE battle to watch. Perhaps the move for Daniil might work out alright as well, providing he gets the better of Sainz because the amount of Russian money floating around at the moment means he could be able to stay in F1 unlike the other Red Bull juniors (Renault with the SMP link perhaps?). Just very uncalled for by Marko attempting a very obvious character assassination to achieve this, almost makes you think the podium at China was an inconvenience rather than a cause for celebration.

[Amon]

Yes wow Mr E, I immediately had to think of your thread when I read that story on PF1's main page! This is even way before mid season. So there clearly was something boiling already and the Russia events seemed to be the perfect opportunity for Red Bull to do this. How unfortunate this might seem for Kvyat he still has a drive until the end of the season to show how he matches versus Sainz and Verstappen. And while promoting Max might seem early let's not forget Kvyat was promoted even earlier from STR to RBR. After 2 seasons and a bit he hasn't shown the likes of a top driver which Max IMO did. Anyway I wish all 4 of them the best of luck. But I guess in 2017 one of Kvyat and Sainz might be out of a drive.

[Underviewer]

I don't see much of a future in F1 for Kvyat now. Red Bull say this is to somehow stop him getting into a situation like Grosjean did where he keeps crashing due to inner pressure. By knocking his confidence even more by quite obviously demoting him? Also, this is bad news for Sainz. Red Bull obviously have no intention of ever promoting him.

[lamo]

I don't see much of a future in F1 for Kvyat now. Red Bull say this is to somehow stop him getting into a situation like Grosjean did where he keeps crashing due to inner pressure. By knocking his confidence even more by quite obviously demoting him? Also, this is bad news for Sainz. Red Bull obviously have no intention of ever promoting him.

Grosjean actually had his first demotion, often forgotten about when he was in the Renault for 2009 for 7 races was very erratic and sent back down to GP2, before returning in 2012 and still causing mayhem. He has matured now finally, but Renault showed a lot of faith and patience in him as for me he wasn't any better than Piquet Jnr at the time.

If Kyvat is beating Sainz by a good margin by the end of the year, it would have done him good. Especially if Ricciardo destroys Verstappen.

[kleefton]

Late to the party but I can't wait to witness this.
I think Ricciardo is going to be a great barometer for Max. In my opinion he will be faster than Max initially. How much faster I am not sure.
But if Ricciardo shows himself to be miles ahead of Max it could destroy everything he has accomplished in the sport to this point and he may be on his way out of the sport within 2 years. It is a very risky and dangerous move for Max. I wish him the best but Ricciardo is going to be hard to beat.

[KingVoid]

I keep seeing this comparison in this thread, but Max to Red Bull is nothing like Fisi to Ferrari is 2009.

Verstappen is 18 right now. Fisichella was 36 in 2009 when he moved from Force India to Ferrari mid season. Young people in general are quicker learners, whether it is learning a new language, a new musical instrument, or anything else. I highly doubt Verstappen will struggle anywhere near as much to adapt as Fisichella did.

[F1 MERCENARY]

^^^

I doubt Ricciardo will be miles better than Verstappen, if at all. The one thing we must factor into this comparison is AGE. The older you get, the less brave you become and Verstappen is fearless at this point and if the Red Bull is indeed a better car, he is still fresh enough to not only adapt and acclimate to a new car but to meld with it in a way that could spell trouble for Ricciardo. I wouldn't be surprised to see Verstappen matching and even beating Ricciardo because he lacks all fear and is really fast.

Although Ricciardo seems to be one of the best drivers in all of F1, we have to wait and see where Max sits in Spain when Q3 is said and done to get a better picture of all 4 of their abilities. And if Max outdoes Ricciardo it wouldn't mean Ricciardo isn't as good as he seems because quite frankly, some of the car's traits might just feel more natural to Max, allowing him to drive more comfortably than with the Roro Rosso. one thing's for sure, this is going to prove to be one of the best barometers for driver comparison we've had in… well, Ever!

All 4 drivers are highly regarded with Ricciardo being the best in the majority of peoples' opinions, so all 4 will have excellent benchmarks to which they can and will be compared to. Can't wait!

[pokerman]

I have to say I thought this thread was a bit silly (full apologies Mr E!) when I first read it. I thought it was an over reaction to one very bad race for him. But how wrong I was.

What we do not know is what may have happened behind the scenes. On the face of it it seems an over reaction. If they are that unhappy with him why not just terminate his contract? It is one thing for STR to lose a driver through promotion to RBR (an affirmation of their collective hard work if you like) but I would be a bit annoyed at having to take back a driver deemed not good enough for RBR.

There is no one in the junior program that is ready to replace him.

[pokerman]

^^^

I doubt Ricciardo will be miles better than Verstappen, if at all. The one thing we must factor into this comparison is AGE. The older you get, the less brave you become and Verstappen is fearless at this point and if the Red Bull is indeed a better car, he is still fresh enough to not only adapt and acclimate to a new car but to meld with it in a way that could spell trouble for Ricciardo. I wouldn't be surprised to see Verstappen matching and even beating Ricciardo because he lacks all fear and is really fast.

Although Ricciardo seems to be one of the best drivers in all of F1, we have to wait and see where Max sits in Spain when Q3 is said and done to get a better picture of all 4 of their abilities. And if Max outdoes Ricciardo it wouldn't mean Ricciardo isn't as good as he seems because quite frankly, some of the car's traits might just feel more natural to Max, allowing him to drive more comfortably than with the Roro Rosso. one thing's for sure, this is going to prove to be one of the best barometers for driver comparison we've had in… well, Ever!

All 4 drivers are highly regarded with Ricciardo being the best in the majority of peoples' opinions, so all 4 will have excellent benchmarks to which they can and will be compared to. Can't wait!

I don't think that Kvyat had any trouble with his bravery, certainly the likes of Maldonado never did either, I'm not sure bravery is such an important thing at this level of racing and perhaps too much bravery can pass into stupidity?

If you are just waiting until Spain Q3 to see how all the Red Bull drivers sit then I feel confident in saying that I think Ricciardo will comfortably out qualify Max.

[AravJ]

I think the RBR will suite vestappen in the late tracking department like it does Ricciardo. I think he will do well. Just hope he does not get too excited and crash. While I think the swop is premature it will be could be good to push the team foward. Kvyat while talented is has too many ups and downs in form

[DaveStebbins]

For getting to grips with a car one hasn't driven before, the first name that popped into my head was Stoffel Vandoorne. If Max can adapt as quickly as Stoffel did, we could see some fireworks pretty quickly.

[TheGiantHogweed]

I don't think Verstappen has had enought tiem to show he is better than Kvyat. Kvyat has a pretty good season in 2014 and his car wasn't as strong as the Toro Rosso Verstappen had the year after.
Max Verstappen did have several scruffy races last year such as Monaco, Silverstone and the final race.
I also thought he came across very immature in the first race this season when on the radio. He was complaining that his team mate was holding him up. I was thinking that if his team mate was that slow, he sould have been able to get past. So many people say he is very mature since he started but I don't think he is that different, nor do I think he is much better. I agree that he is a very good driver but I don't think he is obviously any better than Kvyat. I think it would be far better if they had waited to find out how well Kvyat did for the rest of this season then decided.

Something that I don't understand is how moving teams will affect the points. Will Kvyat bring the points he earnt to Toro Rosso and the other way round for Verstappen? In that case, Williams will end up climbing up to 3rd in the drivers championship without a race even taking place which will seem pretty starnge.

There are so many other ways of moving the points but I have no clue how taht will work out. I would be interested to find out if anyone knows what might happen.

Well that won't be a problem I guess, I don't think Ric will hold him up

I think the constructor points will stay at the teams, the driver points will stay with the drivers.

So will this mean at the end of the season, points won't look to add up correctly between the team mates for the constructors championship?

[pokerman]

For getting to grips with a car one hasn't driven before, the first name that popped into my head was Stoffel Vandoorne. If Max can adapt as quickly as Stoffel did, we could see some fireworks pretty quickly.

Fireworks with Ricciardo?

[pokerman]

I don't think Verstappen has had enought tiem to show he is better than Kvyat. Kvyat has a pretty good season in 2014 and his car wasn't as strong as the Toro Rosso Verstappen had the year after.
Max Verstappen did have several scruffy races last year such as Monaco, Silverstone and the final race.
I also thought he came across very immature in the first race this season when on the radio. He was complaining that his team mate was holding him up. I was thinking that if his team mate was that slow, he sould have been able to get past. So many people say he is very mature since he started but I don't think he is that different, nor do I think he is much better. I agree that he is a very good driver but I don't think he is obviously any better than Kvyat. I think it would be far better if they had waited to find out how well Kvyat did for the rest of this season then decided.

Something that I don't understand is how moving teams will affect the points. Will Kvyat bring the points he earnt to Toro Rosso and the other way round for Verstappen? In that case, Williams will end up climbing up to 3rd in the drivers championship without a race even taking place which will seem pretty starnge.

There are so many other ways of moving the points but I have no clue how taht will work out. I would be interested to find out if anyone knows what might happen.

Well that won't be a problem I guess, I don't think Ric will hold him up

I think the constructor points will stay at the teams, the driver points will stay with the drivers.

So will this mean at the end of the season, points won't look to add up correctly between the team mates for the constructors championship?

Yep

[F1 MERCENARY]

^^^

I doubt Ricciardo will be miles better than Verstappen, if at all. The one thing we must factor into this comparison is AGE. The older you get, the less brave you become and Verstappen is fearless at this point and if the Red Bull is indeed a better car, he is still fresh enough to not only adapt and acclimate to a new car but to meld with it in a way that could spell trouble for Ricciardo. I wouldn't be surprised to see Verstappen matching and even beating Ricciardo because he lacks all fear and is really fast.

Although Ricciardo seems to be one of the best drivers in all of F1, we have to wait and see where Max sits in Spain when Q3 is said and done to get a better picture of all 4 of their abilities. And if Max outdoes Ricciardo it wouldn't mean Ricciardo isn't as good as he seems because quite frankly, some of the car's traits might just feel more natural to Max, allowing him to drive more comfortably than with the Roro Rosso. one thing's for sure, this is going to prove to be one of the best barometers for driver comparison we've had in… well, Ever!

All 4 drivers are highly regarded with Ricciardo being the best in the majority of peoples' opinions, so all 4 will have excellent benchmarks to which they can and will be compared to. Can't wait!

I don't think that Kvyat had any trouble with his bravery, certainly the likes of Maldonado never did either, I'm not sure bravery is such an important thing at this level of racing and perhaps too much bravery can pass into stupidity?

If you are just waiting until Spain Q3 to see how all the Red Bull drivers sit then I feel confident in saying that I think Ricciardo will comfortably out qualify Max.

Comfortably… We shall see. Even if he does in Spain, we need to see how Max improves as he comes to learn the car's characteristics. The same goes for the other 2 at TR.

LOTS to look forward to in Spain but I expect to hear Hobbo criticize RBTH for demoting Kvyat as he too praised his move in china, saying it was a beautiful move.

[mikeyg123]

I don't think Verstappen has had enought tiem to show he is better than Kvyat. Kvyat has a pretty good season in 2014 and his car wasn't as strong as the Toro Rosso Verstappen had the year after.
Max Verstappen did have several scruffy races last year such as Monaco, Silverstone and the final race.
I also thought he came across very immature in the first race this season when on the radio. He was complaining that his team mate was holding him up. I was thinking that if his team mate was that slow, he sould have been able to get past. So many people say he is very mature since he started but I don't think he is that different, nor do I think he is much better. I agree that he is a very good driver but I don't think he is obviously any better than Kvyat. I think it would be far better if they had waited to find out how well Kvyat did for the rest of this season then decided.

Something that I don't understand is how moving teams will affect the points. Will Kvyat bring the points he earnt to Toro Rosso and the other way round for Verstappen? In that case, Williams will end up climbing up to 3rd in the drivers championship without a race even taking place which will seem pretty starnge.

There are so many other ways of moving the points but I have no clue how taht will work out. I would be interested to find out if anyone knows what might happen.

Well that won't be a problem I guess, I don't think Ric will hold him up

I think the constructor points will stay at the teams, the driver points will stay with the drivers.

So will this mean at the end of the season, points won't look to add up correctly between the team mates for the constructors championship?

Constructors will only ever be credited with points scored in their cars.

[pokerman]

^^^

I doubt Ricciardo will be miles better than Verstappen, if at all. The one thing we must factor into this comparison is AGE. The older you get, the less brave you become and Verstappen is fearless at this point and if the Red Bull is indeed a better car, he is still fresh enough to not only adapt and acclimate to a new car but to meld with it in a way that could spell trouble for Ricciardo. I wouldn't be surprised to see Verstappen matching and even beating Ricciardo because he lacks all fear and is really fast.

Although Ricciardo seems to be one of the best drivers in all of F1, we have to wait and see where Max sits in Spain when Q3 is said and done to get a better picture of all 4 of their abilities. And if Max outdoes Ricciardo it wouldn't mean Ricciardo isn't as good as he seems because quite frankly, some of the car's traits might just feel more natural to Max, allowing him to drive more comfortably than with the Roro Rosso. one thing's for sure, this is going to prove to be one of the best barometers for driver comparison we've had in… well, Ever!

All 4 drivers are highly regarded with Ricciardo being the best in the majority of peoples' opinions, so all 4 will have excellent benchmarks to which they can and will be compared to. Can't wait!

I don't think that Kvyat had any trouble with his bravery, certainly the likes of Maldonado never did either, I'm not sure bravery is such an important thing at this level of racing and perhaps too much bravery can pass into stupidity?

If you are just waiting until Spain Q3 to see how all the Red Bull drivers sit then I feel confident in saying that I think Ricciardo will comfortably out qualify Max.

Comfortably… We shall see. Even if he does in Spain, we need to see how Max improves as he comes to learn the car's characteristics. The same goes for the other 2 at TR.

LOTS to look forward to in Spain but I expect to hear Hobbo criticize RBTH for demoting Kvyat as he too praised his move in china, saying it was a beautiful move.

Well I'm judging it with a driver that's beat all his teammates quite comfortably in qualifying which includes Vettel, against a driver who was quite similar in qualifying to Sainz.

[SmoothRide]

There were rumors of Kvyat not meshing well with the team since the beginning of his tenure. Difficult to tell how much truth they carried, but a team like Red Bull would not make this change unless there were some emotions involved among some high ranking people. It would have made much more sense to make the switch in the off-season to give Verstappen a better chance to acclimate. That would have been a rational, calculated move. Something dramatic must have happened behind the scenes, perhaps a result of growing tensions, and perhaps triggered by the mistakes Kvyat made at the Russian GP. Obviously speculating here, but more details are bound to leak out in the coming weeks or months.

[Black_Flag_11]

There were rumors of Kvyat not meshing well with the team since the beginning of his tenure. Difficult to tell how much truth they carried, but a team like Red Bull would not make this change unless there were some emotions involved among some high ranking people. It would have made much more sense to make the switch in the off-season to give Verstappen a better chance to acclimate. That would have been a rational, calculated move. Something dramatic must have happened behind the scenes, perhaps a result of growing tensions, and perhaps triggered by the mistakes Kvyat made at the Russian GP. Obviously speculating here, but more details are bound to leak out in the coming weeks or months.

Ted Kravitz said something that interested me. That Toro Rosso is currently a battleground with Sainz & Verstappen there.

Toro Rosso is a melting pot at the best of times, but the second year of the Verstappen-Carlos Sainz rivalry turned ugly from the very off in Australia and I don't think we understood how deeply those tensions have been felt within the team.

There have been reports of shouting matches between engineers and team bosses, more shouting matches between drivers' fathers and team bosses, and then there's the slightly mysterious and sudden appointment of John Booth to the role of racing director.

Seems things have been pretty ugly at Toro Rosso then.

[Chunky]

^^^

I doubt Ricciardo will be miles better than Verstappen, if at all. ..................

Well he was miles better than Vettel.


.

[F1 MERCENARY]

^^^

I doubt Ricciardo will be miles better than Verstappen, if at all. ..................

Well he was miles better than Vettel.


.

One must put things into perspective. Vettel leaving Red Bull and going to Ferrari suddenly off top form and then immediately back in tip top form in a brand new car with a brand new team. I'm not convinced Vettel was indeed trying his best to be at his best in 2014. So praise Ricciardo all you like, For me the jury is still out on him. He has glimpses where he looks sensational, but he also still makes some mistakes.

Ironically, for all the flack Kvyat received for that textbook PERFECT move on Vettel in China, Ricciardo received loads of praise for his dive-bomb move that almost took out Rosberg last year and it was sloppy and out of hand and from way, way, WAaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay farther back and out of position, whereas Kvyat was right there and saw an opening and zipped right in there flawlessly.

We shall see is all I say. I'n not saying one is definitively going to trounce anyone until I see both pairs of drivers int heir cars next time out, but I would not be surprised one bit if someone is shown up unexpectedly.

[Blinky McSquinty]

Can someone remind me of how Verstappen went in Australia?

Who did he crash into? Was it.... was it....his team mate??

This is just ruthless. Although luck was on Kvyat's side last year when he outscored Ricciardo, credit where credit's due, he was there to score the points.

1 dodgy race, 2 dodgy corners and your gone son.

There's got to be something more to this story.

I was cheering for Kvyat DSQ after he twice hit Vettel, but now that the dust has settled, this swap seems harsh, specially if you take in consideration what Jezza13 reminded us of, that Verstappen recently crashed in his teammate, from behind, just like Kvyat crashed in Vettel.

Bit this crashing of Kvyat into Vettel, it is not to be understood as the cause to RB deciding to do this sudden switch, rather the opportunity. They must have had that down the pipe already, and the circumstances helped to the final decision be made now.

It also tells about Kvyat's taking such risks, he must have known what was cooking in the RB kitchen anyway.

Verstappen did crash into Sainz in Melbourne, but it did not change the results. No doubt Verstappen got his pee pee whacked, but he did not repeat the offense. In this sport where only results matter, it is a relevant point. As well, it was in the latter stages of the race, based on frustration and competitiveness. But for Kvyat, it was based on being too aggressive.

After every race, it could be that evening or the next day, the team and driver sit down for a post race debriefing, and they go into minute detail on everything that happened. If a driver does make a mistake in judgement or driving, it is communicated to them in very clear language that they are expected not to repeat, and to improve. Kvyat was informed post China and clearly told that he must temper his aggression on the first lap. He repeated, and to add to his sins, took out his team mate. This was the proverbial straw that broke the camel's back. He did not heed his guidance and thus sterner measures had to be taken. Hopefully, just like Grosjean when he was parked for a race, he changes and manages to find that fine balance between stupid aggression and smart driving.

[pokerman]

^^^

I doubt Ricciardo will be miles better than Verstappen, if at all. ..................

Well he was miles better than Vettel.


.

One must put things into perspective. Vettel leaving Red Bull and going to Ferrari suddenly off top form and then immediately back in tip top form in a brand new car with a brand new team. I'm not convinced Vettel was indeed trying his best to be at his best in 2014. So praise Ricciardo all you like, For me the jury is still out on him. He has glimpses where he looks sensational, but he also still makes some mistakes.

Ironically, for all the flack Kvyat received for that textbook PERFECT move on Vettel in China, Ricciardo received loads of praise for his dive-bomb move that almost took out Rosberg last year and it was sloppy and out of hand and from way, way, WAaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay farther back and out of position, whereas Kvyat was right there and saw an opening and zipped right in there flawlessly.

We shall see is all I say. I'n not saying one is definitively going to trounce anyone until I see both pairs of drivers int heir cars next time out, but I would not be surprised one bit if someone is shown up unexpectedly.

A Vettel fan that believes 2014 was a fluke?

I'm not sure that you are in the same camp but reading on other forums there seems to be some Vettel fans that root against Ricciardo, wanting Kvyat to beat him and probably wanting Max to beat him now, I can only guess to reaffirm the fluke theory?

I think Ricciardo is very much the real deal, as many rumours there are of Ricciardo joining Ferrari there are just as many say that it will not happen because it will destabilise Vettel.

You have to admire the confidence of the Verstappen's with going up against a tier 1 driver so early in his career.

[pokerman]

There were rumors of Kvyat not meshing well with the team since the beginning of his tenure. Difficult to tell how much truth they carried, but a team like Red Bull would not make this change unless there were some emotions involved among some high ranking people. It would have made much more sense to make the switch in the off-season to give Verstappen a better chance to acclimate. That would have been a rational, calculated move. Something dramatic must have happened behind the scenes, perhaps a result of growing tensions, and perhaps triggered by the mistakes Kvyat made at the Russian GP. Obviously speculating here, but more details are bound to leak out in the coming weeks or months.

Kvyat clearly was always on borrowed time, I think a combination of Kvyat having a decent 2015 season and Max having only done one season in F1 made the driver choice for this season a sensible decision. However Kvyat's poor form this season made Red Bull have a re-think and then the poor drive in Sochi gave them the opportunity to make the change.

[Exediron]

This will certainly give Red Bull some very interesting comparison data, I'm surprised that RB have signed Max on a multiyear deal though, has he really done enough to deserve that?

No.

Verstappen is probably the most overhyped driver in recent F1 history; his actual achievements are 1) being the top rookie in his year of F3 and 2) slightly outpacing a driver who wasn't as quick as Kevin Magnussen.

Although Ricciardo seems to be one of the best drivers in all of F1, we have to wait and see where Max sits in Spain when Q3 is said and done to get a better picture of all 4 of their abilities. And if Max outdoes Ricciardo it wouldn't mean Ricciardo isn't as good as he seems because quite frankly, some of the car's traits might just feel more natural to Max, allowing him to drive more comfortably than with the Roro Rosso. one thing's for sure, this is going to prove to be one of the best barometers for driver comparison we've had in… well, Ever!

I strongly disagree. If he can't outperform a driver with barely two year's experience racing cars - and no experience in the Red Bull - then Ricciardo isn't as good as we think he is, period. Even Hamilton wasn't able to beat Alonso right away, and he had plenty of time to prepare. If Max performs on the same level as Ricciardo in Spain, nothing we thought we knew about the pecking order of F1 drivers is true.

[RaggedMan]

This will certainly give Red Bull some very interesting comparison data, I'm surprised that RB have signed Max on a multiyear deal though, has he really done enough to deserve that?

No.

Verstappen is probably the most overhyped driver in recent F1 history; his actual achievements are 1) being the top rookie in his year of F3 and 2) slightly outpacing a driver who wasn't as quick as Kevin Magnussen.

Although Ricciardo seems to be one of the best drivers in all of F1, we have to wait and see where Max sits in Spain when Q3 is said and done to get a better picture of all 4 of their abilities. And if Max outdoes Ricciardo it wouldn't mean Ricciardo isn't as good as he seems because quite frankly, some of the car's traits might just feel more natural to Max, allowing him to drive more comfortably than with the Roro Rosso. one thing's for sure, this is going to prove to be one of the best barometers for driver comparison we've had in… well, Ever!

I strongly disagree. If he can't outperform a driver with barely two year's experience racing cars - and no experience in the Red Bull - then Ricciardo isn't as good as we think he is, period. Even Hamilton wasn't able to beat Alonso right away, and he had plenty of time to prepare. If Max performs on the same level as Ricciardo in Spain, nothing we thought we knew about the pecking order of F1 drivers is true.

While I agree with you in general, Hamilton did better than Alonso in the opening rounds of 2007.

[Multi69]

Eating my words and taking a seat alongside the other members of this thread who were wrong 'hi how you doing, scuse me, cheers'

Wow. Engine upgrades coming, DK poor form, MV good form, stars aligned for Max.