Could RBR send Kvyat to STR mid season?

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Mr-E
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Could RBR send Kvyat to STR mid season?

Post by Mr-E »

Not saying they will, but could they change the line-up and shift drivers mid season? Kvyat back to STR and Verstappen (or Sainz) to RBR?
He (Kvyat) is certainly feeling the pressure and even if he scored a podium in China he isn't exactly looking like the next big thing.
So looking at the rules, is it even possible?
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Re: Could RBR send Kvyat to STR mid season?

Post by Porsan »

If I remember well, the last in-season team change of a driver was in 2009, Fisichella moved from Force India to Ferrari following Felipe Massa's accident and Luca Badoer's lack of performance, so at the time it was possible.

But I don't think Daniil would be "demoted" to Toro Rosso, it wouldn't make any sense. If anything, he would be fired (or at least, fired from his status of Red Bull regular driver).
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Re: Could RBR send Kvyat to STR mid season?

Post by nixxxon »

Agree with Porsan. You get promoted from TR to RB but not the opposite.

Probably a driver like Kvyat could find a seat elsewhere if he got fired from RB

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Re: Could RBR send Kvyat to STR mid season?

Post by Lentulus »

Mr-E wrote:
So looking at the rules, is it even possible?
Yes, the rules allow mid-season driver changes, with a maximum of 4 drivers allowed per team, per season.

This particular swap isn't likely, however.

It's more likely that Verstappen would be promoted to RBR during the season than it is that Kvyat would replace him at STR.
If little Max got promoted before the end of the season, it's likely that Gasly or Rowland would get the seat at STR for the last few races.

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Re: Could RBR send Kvyat to STR mid season?

Post by pokerman »

Lentulus wrote:
Mr-E wrote:
So looking at the rules, is it even possible?
Yes, the rules allow mid-season driver changes, with a maximum of 4 drivers allowed per team, per season.

This particular swap isn't likely, however.

It's more likely that Verstappen would be promoted to RBR during the season than it is that Kvyat would replace him at STR.
If little Max got promoted before the end of the season, it's likely that Gasly or Rowland would get the seat at STR for the last few races.
The sort of crazy thing about this is that apart from damaging Ricciardo's car in Sochi, Kvyat's aggressive pass in China led to a series of collisons which left debris on the track that punctured Ricciardo's tyre, he has basically caused mayhem in the last 2 races.
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Re: Could RBR send Kvyat to STR mid season?

Post by Zoue »

pokerman wrote:
Lentulus wrote:
Mr-E wrote:
So looking at the rules, is it even possible?
Yes, the rules allow mid-season driver changes, with a maximum of 4 drivers allowed per team, per season.

This particular swap isn't likely, however.

It's more likely that Verstappen would be promoted to RBR during the season than it is that Kvyat would replace him at STR.
If little Max got promoted before the end of the season, it's likely that Gasly or Rowland would get the seat at STR for the last few races.
The sort of crazy thing about this is that apart from damaging Ricciardo's car in Sochi, Kvyat's aggressive pass in China led to a series of collisons which left debris on the track that punctured Ricciardo's tyre, he has basically caused mayhem in the last 2 races.
Very true. Kvyat has taken out both Vettel and Ricciardo for two races running! 8O

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Re: Could RBR send Kvyat to STR mid season?

Post by Amon »

Well if I'm brutally honest Kvyat would not have been in the RBR seat last year had Vettel stayed on. The only reason he outscored Dan last season was cos Dan usually retired at moments he could gain big points. Also this season he stood on the podium which should have been Dan's. If Kvyat was good enough for RBR seat so would have been Vergne. I'm still lost what special thing he did in his rookie season. Actually what special thing has he done so far in his career? I'm pretty positive if you pair him with Max he would lose out too.
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Re: Could RBR send Kvyat to STR mid season?

Post by davidheath461 »

Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lentulus wrote:
Mr-E wrote:
So looking at the rules, is it even possible?
Yes, the rules allow mid-season driver changes, with a maximum of 4 drivers allowed per team, per season.

This particular swap isn't likely, however.

It's more likely that Verstappen would be promoted to RBR during the season than it is that Kvyat would replace him at STR.
If little Max got promoted before the end of the season, it's likely that Gasly or Rowland would get the seat at STR for the last few races.
The sort of crazy thing about this is that apart from damaging Ricciardo's car in Sochi, Kvyat's aggressive pass in China led to a series of collisons which left debris on the track that punctured Ricciardo's tyre, he has basically caused mayhem in the last 2 races.
Very true. Kvyat has taken out both Vettel and Ricciardo for two races running! 8O
He didn't take out Vettel or Ricciardo in China. It was Vettel's fault that he hit Kimi.

Kvyat was obviously to blame today.

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Re: Could RBR send Kvyat to STR mid season?

Post by Remmirath »

It's possible they'd make a switch. I don't think it's very likely, unless he should keep up at this rate for the next several races; that would shuffle things up quite a bit, but it could turn out to be advantageous to Red Bull. I'm not sure that either Verstappen or Sainz are really ready to move up just yet, but if they have reason to want to get rid of Kvyat now, I could see it happening. I can't see Kvyat actually being demoted back to Toro Rosso, though. That would be rather strange. I think he would just be out of a seat, and somebody else in the Red Bull program would take the vacant Toro Rosso spot.
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Re: Could RBR send Kvyat to STR mid season?

Post by pokerman »

Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lentulus wrote:
Mr-E wrote:
So looking at the rules, is it even possible?
Yes, the rules allow mid-season driver changes, with a maximum of 4 drivers allowed per team, per season.

This particular swap isn't likely, however.

It's more likely that Verstappen would be promoted to RBR during the season than it is that Kvyat would replace him at STR.
If little Max got promoted before the end of the season, it's likely that Gasly or Rowland would get the seat at STR for the last few races.
The sort of crazy thing about this is that apart from damaging Ricciardo's car in Sochi, Kvyat's aggressive pass in China led to a series of collisons which left debris on the track that punctured Ricciardo's tyre, he has basically caused mayhem in the last 2 races.
Very true. Kvyat has taken out both Vettel and Ricciardo for two races running! 8O
Nearly twice for Hamilton as well if not for the escape road coming to his rescue 8O
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Re: Could RBR send Kvyat to STR mid season?

Post by pokerman »

Amon wrote:Well if I'm brutally honest Kvyat would not have been in the RBR seat last year had Vettel stayed on. The only reason he outscored Dan last season was cos Dan usually retired at moments he could gain big points. Also this season he stood on the podium which should have been Dan's. If Kvyat was good enough for RBR seat so would have been Vergne. I'm still lost what special thing he did in his rookie season. Actually what special thing has he done so far in his career? I'm pretty positive if you pair him with Max he would lose out too.
To be fair to Kvyat he won the GP3 title as a rookie destroying his teammate Sainz in the process and looked like a strong talent.

Ok he got beat by Vergne as a F1 rookie but he was stronger than Vergne in qualifying which can be seen as a measure of latent speed, although it has to be said that Vergne during his time in F1 showed himself to be a terrible qualifier.

So I have no problem with his promotion to the Red Bull team, his big problem though is his teammate Ricciardo, this I believe is putting enormous pressure on him and the need perhaps to take chances for the big result which of course paid off in spades in China.
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Re: Could RBR send Kvyat to STR mid season?

Post by pokerman »

davidheath461 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lentulus wrote:
Mr-E wrote:
So looking at the rules, is it even possible?
Yes, the rules allow mid-season driver changes, with a maximum of 4 drivers allowed per team, per season.

This particular swap isn't likely, however.

It's more likely that Verstappen would be promoted to RBR during the season than it is that Kvyat would replace him at STR.
If little Max got promoted before the end of the season, it's likely that Gasly or Rowland would get the seat at STR for the last few races.
The sort of crazy thing about this is that apart from damaging Ricciardo's car in Sochi, Kvyat's aggressive pass in China led to a series of collisons which left debris on the track that punctured Ricciardo's tyre, he has basically caused mayhem in the last 2 races.
Very true. Kvyat has taken out both Vettel and Ricciardo for two races running! 8O
He didn't take out Vettel or Ricciardo in China. It was Vettel's fault that he hit Kimi.

Kvyat was obviously to blame today.
He didn't take out Vettel because he saw him, it was an aggressive move that paid off for him, but I think Vettel was being very wise in his observation that next time he might not be as lucky.

Kvyat is obviously being very aggressive going into the first corner, he made a big misjudgement in Sochi, some might call it the red mist syndrome.
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Re: Could RBR send Kvyat to STR mid season?

Post by pokerman »

Remmirath wrote:It's possible they'd make a switch. I don't think it's very likely, unless he should keep up at this rate for the next several races; that would shuffle things up quite a bit, but it could turn out to be advantageous to Red Bull. I'm not sure that either Verstappen or Sainz are really ready to move up just yet, but if they have reason to want to get rid of Kvyat now, I could see it happening. I can't see Kvyat actually being demoted back to Toro Rosso, though. That would be rather strange. I think he would just be out of a seat, and somebody else in the Red Bull program would take the vacant Toro Rosso spot.
I think they will keep it as it is, one reason for this is I don't believe that Verstappen is ready to go up against Ricciardo this season and you might find yourself in the same situation with a young driver over striving to do well, plus I don't believe that any of the Red Bull juniors are ready for F1 at this moment.
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Toby.
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Re: Could RBR send Kvyat to STR mid season?

Post by Toby. »

Silly move into Turn 1 yesterday but the second accident with Vettel was entirely out of his control. At that point on the track, at that stage in the race, no driver would be prepared for the person just metres ahead to slow suddenly. Not that I'm blaming Vettel for doing that (considering Perez - yes? - looked like he was in trouble), but Kvyat shouldn't be chastised for doing something I think most drivers would've.

So he got RBR's first podium of 2016 last race and this race made a bit of a mistake at the first corner. Based on that should he be demoted to STR? Absolutely not.

Should he be dumped if he hasn't improved a lot by the end of the year? Probably.
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Re: Could RBR send Kvyat to STR mid season?

Post by Multi69 »

I had a laugh at this thread title. I love this sport.

No, he shouldn't be demoted and he won't be demoted.

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Re: Could RBR send Kvyat to STR mid season?

Post by Randine »

Mr-E wrote:Not saying they will, but could they change the line-up and shift drivers mid season? Kvyat back to STR and Verstappen (or Sainz) to RBR?
He (Kvyat) is certainly feeling the pressure and even if he scored a podium in China he isn't exactly looking like the next big thing.
So looking at the rules, is it even possible?
All Toro Rosso drivers have a contract directly with Red Bull. They are then loaned to Toro Rosso.
It is probably done this way as if they show promise at Toro Rosso, they can't turn around and switch to another team before signing with the big team.
There is no reason why they can't make the switch.
However while they have nothing to gain out of the move, I think they would keep things how they are.

If on the other hand they were contenders for the constructors title and a driver was constantly making mistakes then yes, I think they could make a switch.
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Re: Could RBR send Kvyat to STR mid season?

Post by ETM3 »

Toby. wrote:Silly move into Turn 1 yesterday but the second accident with Vettel was entirely out of his control. At that point on the track, at that stage in the race, no driver would be prepared for the person just metres ahead to slow suddenly. Not that I'm blaming Vettel for doing that (considering Perez - yes? - looked like he was in trouble), but Kvyat shouldn't be chastised for doing something I think most drivers would've.

...
.
Yes Kvyat certainly deserves blame. Drivers do not rely purely on reaction time. One difference between a beginner driver and an experienced one is his ability to read the situation recognize what his competitor is dealing with to anticipate what he is going to do. Perez's tire goes and he makes a big catch of his car in plain view of Kvyat. Fixating on the rear of the car in front of him and not looking 'thru' that car to see what else is happening on the track is an amateur mistake. It is not supposed to happen at this level of racing.

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Re: Could RBR send Kvyat to STR mid season?

Post by Aussie Grit »

Completely agree with Toby.
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Re: Could RBR send Kvyat to STR mid season?

Post by Prema »

Toby. wrote:Silly move into Turn 1 yesterday but the second accident with Vettel was entirely out of his control. At that point on the track, at that stage in the race, no driver would be prepared for the person just metres ahead to slow suddenly. Not that I'm blaming Vettel for doing that (considering Perez - yes? - looked like he was in trouble), but Kvyat shouldn't be chastised for doing something I think most drivers would've.
The second accident with Vettel was quite in his control: he just beamed the guy from behind with his car a bit earlier, and then he goes after him like nuts like as if nothing had happened... just to beam in him again. But it did happen, and Vettel's slowing down was due to the tyre getting damaged.. due to being hit by Kvyat earlier on..

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Re: Could RBR send Kvyat to STR mid season?

Post by infi24r »

I don't really see much of a future at Red Bull for Kvyat, with Verstappen almost certainly being promoted and him alienating the team in such a way. He doesn't need to just match Ricciardo to be retained, he needs to convincingly be faster, yet he's been slower in every session this year and he's crashing far more frequently.

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Re: Could RBR send Kvyat to STR mid season?

Post by Fiki »

Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lentulus wrote:
Mr-E wrote:
So looking at the rules, is it even possible?
Yes, the rules allow mid-season driver changes, with a maximum of 4 drivers allowed per team, per season.

This particular swap isn't likely, however.

It's more likely that Verstappen would be promoted to RBR during the season than it is that Kvyat would replace him at STR.
If little Max got promoted before the end of the season, it's likely that Gasly or Rowland would get the seat at STR for the last few races.
The sort of crazy thing about this is that apart from damaging Ricciardo's car in Sochi, Kvyat's aggressive pass in China led to a series of collisons which left debris on the track that punctured Ricciardo's tyre, he has basically caused mayhem in the last 2 races.
Very true. Kvyat has taken out both Vettel and Ricciardo for two races running! 8O
I'm suprised anybody still believes Kvyat's action in China was the cause of an accident.

Could RBR send Kvyat to STR? They probably could, but why would they wish to do that? What would it accomplish?
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Re: Could RBR send Kvyat to STR mid season?

Post by iano »

Kvyat is having a bad run. Some of it bad luck, but some of it the pressure of being team mate to Ricciardo. Too early to put that same pressure on either Verstappen or Sainz.

Kvyat is very talented and should not be underestimated. Red Bull has some amazing drivers.

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Re: Could RBR send Kvyat to STR mid season?

Post by Grizzly B »

I don't think demoting him to STR is going far enough, he should go to prison... thats the next logical step right?

Talk about an over reaction.

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Re: Could RBR send Kvyat to STR mid season?

Post by Zoue »

Fiki wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lentulus wrote:
Mr-E wrote:
So looking at the rules, is it even possible?
Yes, the rules allow mid-season driver changes, with a maximum of 4 drivers allowed per team, per season.

This particular swap isn't likely, however.

It's more likely that Verstappen would be promoted to RBR during the season than it is that Kvyat would replace him at STR.
If little Max got promoted before the end of the season, it's likely that Gasly or Rowland would get the seat at STR for the last few races.
The sort of crazy thing about this is that apart from damaging Ricciardo's car in Sochi, Kvyat's aggressive pass in China led to a series of collisons which left debris on the track that punctured Ricciardo's tyre, he has basically caused mayhem in the last 2 races.
Very true. Kvyat has taken out both Vettel and Ricciardo for two races running! 8O
I'm suprised anybody still believes Kvyat's action in China was the cause of an accident.

Could RBR send Kvyat to STR? They probably could, but why would they wish to do that? What would it accomplish?
I was being slightly tongue in cheek. I don't think it was his fault in China but his actions did result in Vettel veering away from him. Put another way, if Kvyat hadn't tried the dive it probably would not have happened (which is not the same as saying it was his fault).

So I think it's possible to say that Kvyat, directly or indirectly, has ended up taking out both Seb and Ric in two races.

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Re: Could RBR send Kvyat to STR mid season?

Post by drallim »

People seem to be forgetting Verstappen is still a teenager and currently leads all drivers in penalty points. If your reason for getting rid of Kvyat is because you want a more mature driver who will make less mistakes, Verstappen is pretty much as far away from that as you can get.

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Re: Could RBR send Kvyat to STR mid season?

Post by pokerman »

Toby. wrote:Silly move into Turn 1 yesterday but the second accident with Vettel was entirely out of his control. At that point on the track, at that stage in the race, no driver would be prepared for the person just metres ahead to slow suddenly. Not that I'm blaming Vettel for doing that (considering Perez - yes? - looked like he was in trouble), but Kvyat shouldn't be chastised for doing something I think most drivers would've.

So he got RBR's first podium of 2016 last race and this race made a bit of a mistake at the first corner. Based on that should he be demoted to STR? Absolutely not.

Should he be dumped if he hasn't improved a lot by the end of the year? Probably.
Kvyat basically took 3 cars out in the first corner, surely this is F1 and not dodgem cars?
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Re: Could RBR send Kvyat to STR mid season?

Post by pokerman »

Fiki wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lentulus wrote:
Mr-E wrote:
So looking at the rules, is it even possible?
Yes, the rules allow mid-season driver changes, with a maximum of 4 drivers allowed per team, per season.

This particular swap isn't likely, however.

It's more likely that Verstappen would be promoted to RBR during the season than it is that Kvyat would replace him at STR.
If little Max got promoted before the end of the season, it's likely that Gasly or Rowland would get the seat at STR for the last few races.
The sort of crazy thing about this is that apart from damaging Ricciardo's car in Sochi, Kvyat's aggressive pass in China led to a series of collisons which left debris on the track that punctured Ricciardo's tyre, he has basically caused mayhem in the last 2 races.
Very true. Kvyat has taken out both Vettel and Ricciardo for two races running! 8O
I'm suprised anybody still believes Kvyat's action in China was the cause of an accident.

Could RBR send Kvyat to STR? They probably could, but why would they wish to do that? What would it accomplish?
No but they are both examples of very aggressive driving, sometimes it works, sometimes............
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Re: Could RBR send Kvyat to STR mid season?

Post by Black_Flag_11 »

Toby. wrote:Silly move into Turn 1 yesterday but the second accident with Vettel was entirely out of his control. At that point on the track, at that stage in the race, no driver would be prepared for the person just metres ahead to slow suddenly. Not that I'm blaming Vettel for doing that (considering Perez - yes? - looked like he was in trouble), but Kvyat shouldn't be chastised for doing something I think most drivers would've.

So he got RBR's first podium of 2016 last race and this race made a bit of a mistake at the first corner. Based on that should he be demoted to STR? Absolutely not.

Should he be dumped if he hasn't improved a lot by the end of the year? Probably.
I disagree, looking at his onboard he just didn't react quick enough in turn 3, he had enough time to avoid it.

Vettel avoided going into the back of Perez in the same situation and the cars behind Kvyat managed to avoid going into the back of him after he slowed too.

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Re: Could RBR send Kvyat to STR mid season?

Post by Fiki »

pokerman wrote:
Fiki wrote:I'm suprised anybody still believes Kvyat's action in China was the cause of an accident.

Could RBR send Kvyat to STR? They probably could, but why would they wish to do that? What would it accomplish?
No but they are both examples of very aggressive driving, sometimes it works, sometimes............
Everybody knows, or should know, how important the first lap is. If Kvyat handn't acted with sufficient aggression in both cases, his team would be asking questions, and with good reason. The points he brought them in China were worth a lot to them. This race was no different.

I didn't record the Russian race, unfortunately, but I haven't made op my mind yet as to what happened on lap 1.
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Re: Could RBR send Kvyat to STR mid season?

Post by iano »

I am a fan of Kvyat. I think he is huge talent, trying to realise that talent alongside the also hugely talented, and slightly more experienced Ricciardo.

But I believe his move in China was was too aggressive for the situation. Yes Vettel managed to avoid colliding with Kvyat, but only through such an extreme reaction that he hit Kimmi.

This week I think Kvyat will learn the lesson and show a little more restraint through those first few corners from now. He is great driver. But yes he did screw up. But he is a great enough driver to learn.

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Re: Could RBR send Kvyat to STR mid season?

Post by Covalent »

Could they? Yes
Should they? No
Would they? Don't know.

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Re: Could RBR send Kvyat to STR mid season?

Post by Jenson's Understeer »

I don't think it'll happen for a couple of reasons. For a start, IMO Verstappen's development would be better served remaining at Toro Rosso for the rest of the year where he has a little less pressure. Secondly, if they promote Verstappen then I can't see them sending Kvyat back to Toro Rosso, which would mean they would have to promote Gasly and he hasn't looked ready for such a move. Maybe that changes as the GP2 season progresses but right now, it would appear too soon. The third reason I don't see it happening is Ricciardo's future isn't yet set in stone. Red Bull would look pretty foolish if they dropped Kvyat mid-season only to then lose Ricciardo to Ferrari. Until Ricciardo is confirmed as staying for 2017 (I know he has a contract but this is F1!) then I couldn't imagine them dropping Kvyat.

All that said, I'd be very, very surprised if Verstappen isn't driving for Red Bull in 2017. Just depends if he's alongside Kvyat or Ricciardo.
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Re: Could RBR send Kvyat to STR mid season?

Post by mikeyg123 »

Don't forget Kvyat is only 22 and is able to get closer to Ricciardo than Massa or Kimi got to Alonso. Look at the long careers they have had in the sport. Kvyat could still substantially improve and I don't see Red Bull dumping him mid season.

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Re: Could RBR send Kvyat to STR mid season?

Post by Vettel Fan »

They should swap him with Verstappen as soon as possible.

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Blinky McSquinty
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Re: Could RBR send Kvyat to STR mid season?

Post by Blinky McSquinty »

We're already writing off a guy who finished on the podium just one race ago?

The first few years Vettel was in Formula One he also had his moments of being more aggressive than smart and patient. Didn't Vettel once carry the label "The Crash Kid"?
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mikeyg123
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Re: Could RBR send Kvyat to STR mid season?

Post by mikeyg123 »

Blinky McSquinty wrote:We're already writing off a guy who finished on the podium just one race ago?

The first few years Vettel was in Formula One he also had his moments of being more aggressive than smart and patient. Didn't Vettel once carry the label "The Crash Kid"?
Spot on. The idea that a driver can improve seems lost on some.

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Mercedes-Benz
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Re: Could RBR send Kvyat to STR mid season?

Post by Mercedes-Benz »

No he will get a chance this year. He finished 2nd in China and on second half of 2015 he was driving well I think. I would like to see how he is on comparison with current STR drivers. I do not think there is much difference TBH.
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Blinky McSquinty
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Re: Could RBR send Kvyat to STR mid season?

Post by Blinky McSquinty »

mikeyg123 wrote:Spot on. The idea that a driver can improve seems lost on some.
Kvyat has talent, he is quick. But even some great drivers have started off being soundly criticized for dumb rookie crashes or situations. I'm not claiming Kvyat is bound for hall of fame, but as all team principals know, you have to let the horse run free, and hope it can settle down. I mentioned Vettel, heck, Massa was in Formula One for one year then got sent down to the minors because he was making a lot of dumb mistakes. Grosjean has gone from a first lap disaster to a driver looking very good. Even Michael Schumacher drew the ire of Senna when he was a rookie.

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KingVoid
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Re: Could RBR send Kvyat to STR mid season?

Post by KingVoid »

Blinky McSquinty wrote:We're already writing off a guy who finished on the podium just one race ago?
Sounds pretty similar to Grosjean at Belgium 2012. He was brilliant from China until Hungary that year. Then the Spa accident completely shattered his confidence.

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froze
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Re: Could RBR send Kvyat to STR mid season?

Post by froze »

Amon wrote:I'm still lost what special thing he did in his rookie season. Actually what special thing has he done so far in his career? I'm pretty positive if you pair him with Max he would lose out too.
Amazing car control while driving on the grass at Monza 2014 -> RBR seat secured. That's all I can remember anyway.
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