Verstappen to Red Bull, Ricciardo to Ferrari?

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Blinky McSquinty
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Verstappen to Red Bull, Ricciardo to Ferrari?

Post by Blinky McSquinty »

Yesterday Marko hinted that things may be happening at Red Bull when he stated:

"Very good drivers were always only with Toro Rosso for a maximum of two years and then went up [to Red Bull]."

"And Verstappen is extremely good."

And with more revelations:

"That Ferrari was already interested in Daniel in 2015, it is no secret."
http://www.gpupdate.net/en/f1-news/3383 ... promotion/

So my personal interpretation is that Verstappen is promoted to the Red Bull team, Ricciardo is released from his contract, and he moves to Ferrari. Unfortunately, this may indicate that Raikkonen may be out of a job.
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moby
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Re: Verstappen to Red Bull, Ricciardo to Ferrari?

Post by moby »

So why not Max directly to Ferrari? He would compliment Seb well.

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Re: Verstappen to Red Bull, Ricciardo to Ferrari?

Post by sandman1347 »

Looking forward to seeing Daniel at Ferrari if true. Seb will once again have a tough teammate to deal with.

As for Max, he has definitely done enough to warrant the Red Bull drive. I think this sounds great if true.

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Re: Verstappen to Red Bull, Ricciardo to Ferrari?

Post by Blinky McSquinty »

moby wrote:So why not Max directly to Ferrari? He would compliment Seb well.
Currently the Red Bull driver program is working to perfection and the team has a glut of excellent drivers. It may be cruel, but if you can't show signs of being a superstar in Toro Rosso, you are released. That forces a rapid turnover of drivers in Toro Rosso, but this method forces the cream to rise to the top.

IMO Ferrari have been making overtures to Ricciardo, and although teams love to cling on to top drivers, once they have a change of heart and do not sincerely want to be on a team, they should be released from their contract.

So Marchionne was in China for business. He was probably stirring the pot by organizing the demise of Bernie, but there also to make a juicy contract offer to Ricciardo.

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This is something Ricciardo can not ignore, so a few days later he approaches Red Bull and expresses a desire to leave the team. This leaves a slot open in Red Bull, and Verstappen is the most likely candidate for the promotion.

Ferrari are not after Verstappen, they almost always go after proven and experienced drivers.
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Re: Verstappen to Red Bull, Ricciardo to Ferrari?

Post by Jenson's Understeer »

moby wrote:So why not Max directly to Ferrari? He would compliment Seb well.
Pretty sure Red Bull (I can't remember exactly who, but it might've been Helmut Marko) have made it clear Verstappen is under contract with them until the end of 2017. Then again it seems like Ricciardo is also contracted until that point, albeit perhaps with more out clauses than Verstappen.

FWIW I don't see either at Ferrari in 2017 whether Kimi is kept on or not. They're happy with Seb so I would expect them to partner him with someone such as Grosjean if Kimi is dropped/retires, not someone who'll push him the way Ricciardo would or someone who wouldn't obey team orders (hi, Max).
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Re: Verstappen to Red Bull, Ricciardo to Ferrari?

Post by IDrinkYourMilkshake »

moby wrote:So why not Max directly to Ferrari? He would compliment Seb well.
I think Max and Seb would be a disaster. If Seb outperforms Max, Ferrari have gained nothing, except upset Seb, who might thinking Ferrari expected a teenager to beat or match a 4x WDC.

If Max beats Seb, Seb might be off, and Max will still be a teenager, he can't be expected to be a consistent team leader every year, and he might even leave Ferrari by his mid 20s.

Ricciardo and Vettel seems to be a proven pair in how they get along. No BS, no problems, just respect. And worst case secenario, if Ricciardo beats Vettel again, and Vettel leaves, Ferrari still has an experienced race winner who beat the 4x WDC twice.

If Vettel beats Ricciardo, it's 1-1, Ricciardo will still be happy and motivated, and Vettel will be happy having removed the only blemish on his F1 career.

PLUS GET RICCIARDO INTO A WDC CAR ALREADY.

Wait, does that mean he should stay at Red Bull? :twisted:

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Re: Verstappen to Red Bull, Ricciardo to Ferrari?

Post by slide »

moby wrote:So why not Max directly to Ferrari? He would compliment Seb well.
yes plz , I would like to see vettel up against max in a Ferrari , but not sure on sebs view , I wonder who he would prefere as a team mate . max or dan the man

riccardo would brighten things up at Ferrari- they always look like they need a laugh

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Re: Verstappen to Red Bull, Ricciardo to Ferrari?

Post by Blinky McSquinty »

slide wrote:
moby wrote:So why not Max directly to Ferrari? He would compliment Seb well.
yes plz , I would like to see vettel up against max in a Ferrari , but not sure on sebs view , I wonder who he would prefere as a team mate . max or dan the man

riccardo would brighten things up at Ferrari- they always look like they need a laugh
It would be entertaining. But Ferrari just do not hire young and inexperienced drivers, they almost always go after proven and experienced drivers. They also pay them very well, that is the Ferrari way.

As far as anticipating such a scenario, do not forget that of all the teams, Ferrari practice team orders the most, and they would not allow drivers to actually get into tough and potentially DNF situations. Ferrari made Barrichello surrender a sure win for Schumacher at Austria, and made Massa surrender his position with the famous "Alonso is faster than you".
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Re: Verstappen to Red Bull, Ricciardo to Ferrari?

Post by CAR1 »

moby wrote:So why not Max directly to Ferrari? He would compliment Seb well.

Seb, you're a great driver.
Seb, you look nice today.
Seb, your finger is really big.

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Re: Verstappen to Red Bull, Ricciardo to Ferrari?

Post by sandman1347 »

moby wrote:So why not Max directly to Ferrari? He would compliment Seb well.
Has Max really done enough to warrant that? I think not. He looks promising but he's far from proven. Ferrari have a track record of hiring proven commodities. Ricciardo is a far better option IMO (he has bested their current ace in identical machinery). The move up to RBR will be a big enough jump for Max in the immediate future IMO. It's entirely possible that RBR could be the better team next season anyway.

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Re: Verstappen to Red Bull, Ricciardo to Ferrari?

Post by Lotus49 »

If you're Ricciardo do you want to switch to Ferrari for next year anyway?. It seems logical this season sure but if the 2017 rules switch the sport back to an aero dominant formula Red Bull might be the place to be after you factor in Renault upgrading their engine as well.
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Re: Verstappen to Red Bull, Ricciardo to Ferrari?

Post by Zoue »

I'm inclined to believe that this is just pot stirring by Marko. Red Bull are nipping at the heels of Ferrari and if he can destabilise them by putting out rumours that Kimi's seat is all but reserved for next year and Vettel may have to contend with the guy who beat him before then I wouldn't put it past him. If it's not the case I think it's irresponsible of him and I have to say I feel for the drivers who have to constantly put up with people waiting for them to fall

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Re: Verstappen to Red Bull, Ricciardo to Ferrari?

Post by ALESI »

Blinky McSquinty wrote:Yesterday Marko hinted that things may be happening at Red Bull when he stated:

"Very good drivers were always only with Toro Rosso for a maximum of two years and then went up [to Red Bull]."

"And Verstappen is extremely good."

And with more revelations:

"That Ferrari was already interested in Daniel in 2015, it is no secret."
http://www.gpupdate.net/en/f1-news/3383 ... promotion/

So my personal interpretation is that Verstappen is promoted to the Red Bull team, Ricciardo is released from his contract, and he moves to Ferrari. Unfortunately, this may indicate that Raikkonen may be out of a job.
I can't believe anyone seriously thinks Kimi won't be out of a job at the end of the year. I'm still not sure how he managed to cling on this year.
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Re: Verstappen to Red Bull, Ricciardo to Ferrari?

Post by Warheart01 »

Ricciardo to Ferrari would be so great to see, Ric vs Vettel part 2. Vettel wouldn't like it though, and hopefully they would fight it out on equal terms.

Otherwise I wouldn't mind him replacing Rosberg, Ric va Ham would be epic, but I don't expect that to happen.

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Re: Verstappen to Red Bull, Ricciardo to Ferrari?

Post by Pietkok »

I think it depends on the 2017 regulations and the promises Red Bull can make to Ric. It's clear their PU is improving and the car is great. I think it's either:

Ric stays at RB => Kvyat leaves => Max in
Ric goes to Ferrari => Kvyat stays => Max in

Not sure where it leaves Sainz.
Last edited by Pietkok on Sun Apr 24, 2016 12:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Verstappen to Red Bull, Ricciardo to Ferrari?

Post by ynot22 »

ALESI wrote:
Blinky McSquinty wrote:Yesterday Marko hinted that things may be happening at Red Bull when he stated:

"Very good drivers were always only with Toro Rosso for a maximum of two years and then went up [to Red Bull]."

"And Verstappen is extremely good."

And with more revelations:

"That Ferrari was already interested in Daniel in 2015, it is no secret."
http://www.gpupdate.net/en/f1-news/3383 ... promotion/

So my personal interpretation is that Verstappen is promoted to the Red Bull team, Ricciardo is released from his contract, and he moves to Ferrari. Unfortunately, this may indicate that Raikkonen may be out of a job.
I can't believe anyone seriously thinks Kimi won't be out of a job at the end of the year. I'm still not sure how he managed to cling on this year.
Not just this year. The guy manages to get top drives year after year.
Also I cant believe Vettel is going to be very happy about having Ricciardo next to him in an equal car again.

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Re: Verstappen to Red Bull, Ricciardo to Ferrari?

Post by nixxxon »

Kimi might have a seat at Renault perhaps? That is if Renault arent happy with one of their current drivers. But still there are real chances that Kimi is left without a seat for next season. He is now the oldest driver on the grid (time flies). He is going to turn 37 this year...

Max to Ferrari is extremely unlikely. Ferrari never hires such young and unexperienced drivers.

I wonder what Vettel thinks about Ricciardo coming alongside him again...
Last edited by nixxxon on Fri Apr 22, 2016 11:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Verstappen to Red Bull, Ricciardo to Ferrari?

Post by Exediron »

moby wrote:So why not Max directly to Ferrari? He would compliment Seb well.
Max is exactly the sort of toxic personality Ferrari purged in the night of long knives at the start of 2015; the last thing they need is a teenage Prima Donna who thinks he's the best thing since Senna, won't follow team orders and will probably have a meltdown when he realizes the 4-time world champion is actually quicker than him. No thanks.

As for Ricciardo, that depends on how Seb feels. They both say they got along just fine in 2014, but I think hiring Ricciardo would have to carry the unavoidable implication that Vettel isn't safe as #1 driver, and I don't know how okay with that he'd be.
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Re: Verstappen to Red Bull, Ricciardo to Ferrari?

Post by specdecible »

What's most likely to happen is Kvyat getting the boot then Verstappen taking his place.
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Re: Verstappen to Red Bull, Ricciardo to Ferrari?

Post by F1Oz »

It seems clear that Ricciardo has a performance out on his contract - but that if the RBR is performing, the team have the option for 2017.

It's still silly season to be talking about this 3 races into the year - lots of things can happen over the season and nobody will be making serious moves yet.

At the moment, I think all teams would be happy to take DR if they could - and Verstappen for the longer term - but if RBR have multiple drivers going well - and can get someone to 'pay out' a contract - then they might choose to let DR go.

As Lotus49 said though - moving to Ferrari in 2017 might not be the best - I suspect that RBR will have better aero so we come back to engine power.

And CS is still pushing MV and DK - while I think he's below DR and manages to get good points against DR with a bit of luck (DR should have been 2nd and DK 4th in China - a 9 point turnaround in DK's favour) - there's no doubt the Russian has speed and is still improving

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Re: Verstappen to Red Bull, Ricciardo to Ferrari?

Post by TypingChicane »

The one thing I was missing from the quoted article was this:
That is because Auto Bild claims that, in China last weekend, Marko personally told Ferrari’s Sergio Marchionne that Daniel Ricciardo is not a free agent.
It's here though: http://www.grandprix247.com/2016/04/21/ ... -good-and/

I interpreted it as Marko was saying: we want Ricciardo to stay (unless perhaps a large sum is offered) and Verstappen to replace Kvyat.
I feel RBR will only let Ricciardo go to Ferrari, if they are convinced that Verstappen can do a similar stellar job in 2017 as Ricciardo would. And in RBR's ambitions that job means fighting for the WDC.
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Re: Verstappen to Red Bull, Ricciardo to Ferrari?

Post by Warnzee »

If I was Danny Ric I would want to stay at Red Bull, and no way would i move to Ferrari.

Ferrari haven't built a car capable of winning a Championship since the dream team split up, and even when they won in 2007 it was more because McLaren lost. I have been a Ferrari fan since Mansell was there, Alesi was my favourite driver and when Schuey signed I instantly changed my mind about the dirtiest player in the game. I even became an Alonso fan when he signed, having dismissed him previously as 'just' being in the right place at the right time with the Renault team.

But they just cannot deliver on the highest level and produce the best car in the grid.

On the flip side, i have never liked Red Bull as a team. But they really do know how to build an incredible car. People have claimed that their car has been on par with the all-conquering Mercedes for the last few seasons, but for the woeful power unit from Renault. Now that Renault are once again committing to a full works team and have swallowed their pride and accepted help from the guru Illien, it is expected that the power unit will improve considerably. I belive there is a big upgrade expected for Canada? So we will know more then.

But I fully expect all the power units to converge in terms of output and drivability next year, and if that is the case i would want to be with the team who have proven they can build an incredible title-winning chassis and there are only two - Mercedes and Red Bull.

I think Max should stay in Toro Rosso for a third season next year - his natural ability (a phrase i abhor but thats another rant for another thread) is undoubtable but he is still so young. He needs to be nurtured, not thrown in the deep end with a title-capable car.
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Re: Verstappen to Red Bull, Ricciardo to Ferrari?

Post by mikeyg123 »

Warnzee wrote:If I was Danny Ric I would want to stay at Red Bull, and no way would i move to Ferrari.

Ferrari haven't built a car capable of winning a Championship since the dream team split up, and even when they won in 2007 it was more because McLaren lost. I have been a Ferrari fan since Mansell was there, Alesi was my favourite driver and when Schuey signed I instantly changed my mind about the dirtiest player in the game. I even became an Alonso fan when he signed, having dismissed him previously as 'just' being in the right place at the right time with the Renault team.

But they just cannot deliver on the highest level and produce the best car in the grid.

On the flip side, i have never liked Red Bull as a team. But they really do know how to build an incredible car. People have claimed that their car has been on par with the all-conquering Mercedes for the last few seasons, but for the woeful power unit from Renault. Now that Renault are once again committing to a full works team and have swallowed their pride and accepted help from the guru Illien, it is expected that the power unit will improve considerably. I belive there is a big upgrade expected for Canada? So we will know more then.

But I fully expect all the power units to converge in terms of output and drivability next year, and if that is the case i would want to be with the team who have proven they can build an incredible title-winning chassis and there are only two - Mercedes and Red Bull.

I think Max should stay in Toro Rosso for a third season next year - his natural ability (a phrase i abhor but thats another rant for another thread) is undoubtable but he is still so young. He needs to be nurtured, not thrown in the deep end with a title-capable car.
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Re: Verstappen to Red Bull, Ricciardo to Ferrari?

Post by moby »

The forgotten man here is Kvyat. Not as good as Ric, but still not a bad option if Ferrari can get him for free.

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Re: Verstappen to Red Bull, Ricciardo to Ferrari?

Post by Warnzee »

mikeyg123 wrote:
2012 was the last time Ferrari built a car capable of winning a championship.
Ok, perhaps my previous post didn't portray the point i was trying to make - Ferrari haven't won a title or built the best car on the grid for a long time. And I don't think they will in the near future, so Ricciardo would be best advised to stay away.

To stir it up a bit, as you brought up 2012, do you believe that if it was Ricciardo in the Ferrari in 2012 (and i mean Ricciardo as he is now, not then) would he have achieved the same result as Alonso did that year? Or even bettered Fred's results?
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Re: Verstappen to Red Bull, Ricciardo to Ferrari?

Post by mikeyg123 »

Warnzee wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
2012 was the last time Ferrari built a car capable of winning a championship.
Ok, perhaps my previous post didn't portray the point i was trying to make - Ferrari haven't won a title or built the best car on the grid for a long time. And I don't think they will in the near future, so Ricciardo would be best advised to stay away.

To stir it up a bit, as you brought up 2012, do you believe that if it was Ricciardo in the Ferrari in 2012 (and i mean Ricciardo as he is now, not then) would he have achieved the same result as Alonso did that year? Or even bettered Fred's results?
No nobody would have. Alonso 2012 is the most impressive season I have seen in very nearly 25 years of watching F1.

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Re: Verstappen to Red Bull, Ricciardo to Ferrari?

Post by Mercedes-Benz »

He will probably get promoted to RBR but his dad was saying he could even end up in Merc or Ferrari. Anything is possible Sainz is pretty much on par with him but he is not getting the attention. Many drivers are in contention for Ferrari next year including Kimi
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Re: Verstappen to Red Bull, Ricciardo to Ferrari?

Post by Llotyhy »

Pietkok wrote:I think it depends on the 2017 regulations and the promises Red Bull can make to Ric. It's clear their PU is improving and the car is great. I think it's either:

Ric stays at RB => Kvyat leaves => Max in
Ric goes to Ferrari => Kvyat stays => Max in

Not sure where it leaves Saints.

This is exactly what will happen.

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Re: Verstappen to Red Bull, Ricciardo to Ferrari?

Post by sandman1347 »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Warnzee wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
2012 was the last time Ferrari built a car capable of winning a championship.
Ok, perhaps my previous post didn't portray the point i was trying to make - Ferrari haven't won a title or built the best car on the grid for a long time. And I don't think they will in the near future, so Ricciardo would be best advised to stay away.

To stir it up a bit, as you brought up 2012, do you believe that if it was Ricciardo in the Ferrari in 2012 (and i mean Ricciardo as he is now, not then) would he have achieved the same result as Alonso did that year? Or even bettered Fred's results?
No nobody would have. Alonso 2012 is the most impressive season I have seen in very nearly 25 years of watching F1.
This exaggeration has become all too common. The Ferrari that year was a strong car and, more than anything else, the team avoided mechanical failures and pit-stop/strategic errors; which really decimated McLaren that year and had an effect on Red Bull too. Alonso did an excellent job that season but people try to make it seem like he walked on water. To suggest it's the best season in 25 years is laughable in my opinion.

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Re: Verstappen to Red Bull, Ricciardo to Ferrari?

Post by Exediron »

sandman1347 wrote:This exaggeration has become all too common. The Ferrari that year was a strong car and, more than anything else, the team avoided mechanical failures and pit-stop/strategic errors; which really decimated McLaren that year and had an effect on Red Bull too. Alonso did an excellent job that season but people try to make it seem like he walked on water. To suggest it's the best season in 25 years is laughable in my opinion.
What would you nominate instead? The only one I can see that might be clearly better would be Senna's 1993 campaign, but that was more down to Prost being on the verge of retirement and not driving any faster than he had to. Schumacher in '96 would be a close call as well, but I wouldn't say it clearly puts Alonso's 2012 effort into laughing stock.

I can understand not agreeing with it as the best season in the last quarter-century, but I don't think it's laughable to think so either.
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Re: Verstappen to Red Bull, Ricciardo to Ferrari?

Post by Lotus49 »

sandman1347 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Warnzee wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
2012 was the last time Ferrari built a car capable of winning a championship.
Ok, perhaps my previous post didn't portray the point i was trying to make - Ferrari haven't won a title or built the best car on the grid for a long time. And I don't think they will in the near future, so Ricciardo would be best advised to stay away.

To stir it up a bit, as you brought up 2012, do you believe that if it was Ricciardo in the Ferrari in 2012 (and i mean Ricciardo as he is now, not then) would he have achieved the same result as Alonso did that year? Or even bettered Fred's results?
No nobody would have. Alonso 2012 is the most impressive season I have seen in very nearly 25 years of watching F1.
This exaggeration has become all too common. The Ferrari that year was a strong car and, more than anything else, the team avoided mechanical failures and pit-stop/strategic errors; which really decimated McLaren that year and had an effect on Red Bull too. Alonso did an excellent job that season but people try to make it seem like he walked on water. To suggest it's the best season in 25 years is laughable in my opinion.
Hardly laughable, only '93 is in the argument within that period for me. I personally never thought I'd see anyone top Senna's '93, it was the season which made me a fan of the sport, but it did for me. He shouldn't have come close, there were four world champions in quicker cars.

Ferrari may have been relatively error free in strategy and had bulletproof reliability but off track and with updating the car it was a shambles. The car was so bad at the start of the season it was nicknamed Clifford the big red dog,the correlation between wind tunnel and track was so bad they shut the wind tunnel. There were rumors they had to ask Sauber to sort out their rear of the car before the summer which prompted Nelson Piquet Jr to say Alonso would have won the title in the Sauber, (the inference being he would have picked up more points in the first handful of races I expect).

It was borderline ridiculous to mount a title challenge with that going on. Much like Senna's 93 it was displays in the wet when cars are more equal that stand out. Malaysia race,GB and Germany Qualifying were the cornerstone of that season rather than just reliability.

As if Alonso wouldn't have rather had a quicker less reliable car if he had the choice, as would they all. It ultimately cost him having a slower car after all.
Last edited by Lotus49 on Sun Apr 24, 2016 1:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Verstappen to Red Bull, Ricciardo to Ferrari?

Post by infi24r »

I didn't get the impression he was saying Ricciardo to Ferrari, I got the impression he was saying Ricciardo is under firm contract with Red Bull and Ferrari can look elsewhere.

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Re: Verstappen to Red Bull, Ricciardo to Ferrari?

Post by kleefton »

When I first read this, I immediately thought it meant Kvyatt was going to be axed.
Vettel would veto Ricciardo coming to Ferrari if he could.
Redbull seems they want to hold on to Ricciardo for a few more years. He ain't going anywhere soon.
Expect a Riccardo Verstappen pairing at RBR next year. Mouth watering if you ask me.

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Re: Verstappen to Red Bull, Ricciardo to Ferrari?

Post by Toby. »

Blinky McSquinty wrote:Unfortunately, this may indicate that Raikkonen may be out of a job.
About five years too late in my opinion.
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Re: Verstappen to Red Bull, Ricciardo to Ferrari?

Post by froze »

nixxxon wrote:Kimi might have a seat at Renault perhaps? That is if Renault arent happy with one of their current drivers. But still there are real chances that Kimi is left without a seat for next season. He is now the oldest driver on the grid (time flies). He is going to turn 37 this year...

Max to Ferrari is extremely unlikely. Ferrari never hires such young and unexperienced drivers.

I wonder what Vettel thinks about Ricciardo coming alongside him again...
At this point, Kimi won't settle for anything else than a top team, so if they don't get to agreement with Ferrari, he will leave F1.
“I'm happy, but there's nothing to jump around about.”

mikeyg123
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Re: Verstappen to Red Bull, Ricciardo to Ferrari?

Post by mikeyg123 »

sandman1347 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Warnzee wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
2012 was the last time Ferrari built a car capable of winning a championship.
Ok, perhaps my previous post didn't portray the point i was trying to make - Ferrari haven't won a title or built the best car on the grid for a long time. And I don't think they will in the near future, so Ricciardo would be best advised to stay away.

To stir it up a bit, as you brought up 2012, do you believe that if it was Ricciardo in the Ferrari in 2012 (and i mean Ricciardo as he is now, not then) would he have achieved the same result as Alonso did that year? Or even bettered Fred's results?
No nobody would have. Alonso 2012 is the most impressive season I have seen in very nearly 25 years of watching F1.
This exaggeration has become all too common. The Ferrari that year was a strong car and, more than anything else, the team avoided mechanical failures and pit-stop/strategic errors; which really decimated McLaren that year and had an effect on Red Bull too. Alonso did an excellent job that season but people try to make it seem like he walked on water. To suggest it's the best season in 25 years is laughable in my opinion.
Like others, I'm not sure what you think was better. Or at least so much better that it makes Alonso's 2012 "laughable". To challenge and very nearly win a WDC in the 4th best car is pretty incredible. I've never seen a driver grind out so many podiums in a car that an good standard driver rarely got near a podium on. Only Schumacher's 97 and 98 and Senna's 93 come close for me in that period.

sandman1347
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Re: Verstappen to Red Bull, Ricciardo to Ferrari?

Post by sandman1347 »

Lotus49 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Warnzee wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
2012 was the last time Ferrari built a car capable of winning a championship.
Ok, perhaps my previous post didn't portray the point i was trying to make - Ferrari haven't won a title or built the best car on the grid for a long time. And I don't think they will in the near future, so Ricciardo would be best advised to stay away.

To stir it up a bit, as you brought up 2012, do you believe that if it was Ricciardo in the Ferrari in 2012 (and i mean Ricciardo as he is now, not then) would he have achieved the same result as Alonso did that year? Or even bettered Fred's results?
No nobody would have. Alonso 2012 is the most impressive season I have seen in very nearly 25 years of watching F1.
This exaggeration has become all too common. The Ferrari that year was a strong car and, more than anything else, the team avoided mechanical failures and pit-stop/strategic errors; which really decimated McLaren that year and had an effect on Red Bull too. Alonso did an excellent job that season but people try to make it seem like he walked on water. To suggest it's the best season in 25 years is laughable in my opinion.
Hardly laughable, only '93 is in the argument within that period for me. I personally never thought I'd see anyone top Senna's '93, it was the season which made me a fan of the sport, but it did for me. He shouldn't have come close, there were four world champions in quicker cars.

Ferrari may have been relatively error free in strategy and had bulletproof reliability but off track and with updating the car it was a shambles. The car was so bad at the start of the season it was nicknamed Clifford the big red dog,the correlation between wind tunnel and track was so bad they shut the wind tunnel. There were rumors they had to ask Sauber to sort out their rear of the car before the summer which prompted Nelson Piquet Jr to say Alonso would have won the title in the Sauber, (the inference being he would have picked up more points in the first handful of races I expect).

It was borderline ridiculous to mount a title challenge with that going on. Much like Senna's 93 it was displays in the wet when cars are more equal that stand out. Malaysia race,GB and Germany Qualifying were the cornerstone of that season rather than just reliability.

As if Alonso wouldn't have rather had a quicker less reliable car if he had the choice, as would they all. It ultimately cost him having a slower car after all.
If you define the best year as a year where someone makes a run at the championship but doesn't win it while driving a car that is not the best; I'll take Senna 93', Schumacher 96'-98' off the top of my head.

The Ferrari was sorted from a couple races into the season and was very competitive most of that season. It's only their troubled preseason that has people talking about the car as if it were a dud. It wasn't.

The three examples you gave:
1. Malaysia-Hamilton was actually about 14 seconds ahead of Alonso before the safety car erased the gap. Then when they came into the pits after the safety car period ended, McLaren botched the pitstop and Lewis lost the lead and a couple other positions. Alonso was gifted the lead and in the end Perez was catching him in the Sauber before the whole radio transmission incident took place.
2. Silverstone-The Ferrari was strong there. Even Massa qualified 5th for that race and he was awful that year. By that point in the season the Ferrari was strong.
3. Germany Qualifying-Ferrari made the correct strategic decision to get Alonso on fresh tires in the final minutes of Q3 and he easily takes pole. Vettel commented afterwards that Red Bull should have done the same and switched to fresh tires. So that's a strategic victory.

I don't want to sound like I'm trying to take anything away from his performance but people exaggerate the position that he was in that year. The car was competitive most of the year. It was a year where the top few teams were relatively close together on pace. Strategy, execution and above all else, avoiding mistakes are what made the difference that year. Alonso performed extremely well that year.

Zoue
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Re: Verstappen to Red Bull, Ricciardo to Ferrari?

Post by Zoue »

sandman1347 wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
No nobody would have. Alonso 2012 is the most impressive season I have seen in very nearly 25 years of watching F1.
This exaggeration has become all too common. The Ferrari that year was a strong car and, more than anything else, the team avoided mechanical failures and pit-stop/strategic errors; which really decimated McLaren that year and had an effect on Red Bull too. Alonso did an excellent job that season but people try to make it seem like he walked on water. To suggest it's the best season in 25 years is laughable in my opinion.
Hardly laughable, only '93 is in the argument within that period for me. I personally never thought I'd see anyone top Senna's '93, it was the season which made me a fan of the sport, but it did for me. He shouldn't have come close, there were four world champions in quicker cars.

Ferrari may have been relatively error free in strategy and had bulletproof reliability but off track and with updating the car it was a shambles. The car was so bad at the start of the season it was nicknamed Clifford the big red dog,the correlation between wind tunnel and track was so bad they shut the wind tunnel. There were rumors they had to ask Sauber to sort out their rear of the car before the summer which prompted Nelson Piquet Jr to say Alonso would have won the title in the Sauber, (the inference being he would have picked up more points in the first handful of races I expect).

It was borderline ridiculous to mount a title challenge with that going on. Much like Senna's 93 it was displays in the wet when cars are more equal that stand out. Malaysia race,GB and Germany Qualifying were the cornerstone of that season rather than just reliability.

As if Alonso wouldn't have rather had a quicker less reliable car if he had the choice, as would they all. It ultimately cost him having a slower car after all.
If you define the best year as a year where someone makes a run at the championship but doesn't win it while driving a car that is not the best; I'll take Senna 93', Schumacher 96'-98' off the top of my head.

The Ferrari was sorted from a couple races into the season and was very competitive most of that season. It's only their troubled preseason that has people talking about the car as if it were a dud. It wasn't.

The three examples you gave:
1. Malaysia-Hamilton was actually about 14 seconds ahead of Alonso before the safety car erased the gap. Then when they came into the pits after the safety car period ended, McLaren botched the pitstop and Lewis lost the lead and a couple other positions. Alonso was gifted the lead and in the end Perez was catching him in the Sauber before the whole radio transmission incident took place.
2. Silverstone-The Ferrari was strong there. Even Massa qualified 5th for that race and he was awful that year. By that point in the season the Ferrari was strong.
3. Germany Qualifying-Ferrari made the correct strategic decision to get Alonso on fresh tires in the final minutes of Q3 and he easily takes pole. Vettel commented afterwards that Red Bull should have done the same and switched to fresh tires. So that's a strategic victory.

I don't want to sound like I'm trying to take anything away from his performance but people exaggerate the position that he was in that year. The car was competitive most of the year. It was a year where the top few teams were relatively close together on pace. Strategy, execution and above all else, avoiding mistakes are what made the difference that year. Alonso performed extremely well that year.
Feel the need to comment on the examples given here:

1. Malaysia. Does the fact that Perez, in a Sauber, was catching Alonso towards the end not perhaps indicate that Alonso's car wasn't the quickest? Unless of course you feel that Perez is a faster driver than Alonso?
2. Silverstone. Qualifying took place in torrential conditions. Q2 was even red-flagged for a while as a result. So it's difficult to take that as a barometer of ultimate car performance as the grid would have been more mixed up than normal. It would, however, be a better indicator of driver performance.
3. Germany. You make it sound as though Alonso was a mere passenger in the car and had minimal input on the result. It was again an extremely wet qualifying session and driver ability tends to come to the fore in that. Vettel ran wide at Spitzkehre on his final run. Alonso didn't. That has nothing to do with tyres but driver input. And it's worth mentioning that Alonso had already produced a time on his older rubber which would have given him pole anyway, before his final flying lap. It wasn't down to strategy.

I can accept that you might have reservations about how good the Ferrari was that year, but to call it laughable that Alonso's performance is so lauded is a little over the top IMO. He did a better job than anyone with the comedy tyres at the beginning of the year and after the summer break never finished off the podium. It was a good season by any standard. "Best" is subjective but even if you don't agree it doesn't deserve to be dismissed out of hand

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moby
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Re: Verstappen to Red Bull, Ricciardo to Ferrari?

Post by moby »

I suppose the crux is, do Ferrari want two of the best drivers(has to be Dan), or one, and a backup driver?
If a backup driver, do they want one with lots of experience (Button? ) or one to bring on (Max?) or a long term work horse (several)

mikeyg123
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Re: Verstappen to Red Bull, Ricciardo to Ferrari?

Post by mikeyg123 »

sandman1347 wrote: If you define the best year as a year where someone makes a run at the championship but doesn't win it while driving a car that is not the best; I'll take Senna 93', Schumacher 96'-98' off the top of my head.

The Ferrari was sorted from a couple races into the season and was very competitive most of that season. It's only their troubled preseason that has people talking about the car as if it were a dud. It wasn't.

The three examples you gave:
1. Malaysia-Hamilton was actually about 14 seconds ahead of Alonso before the safety car erased the gap. Then when they came into the pits after the safety car period ended, McLaren botched the pitstop and Lewis lost the lead and a couple other positions. Alonso was gifted the lead and in the end Perez was catching him in the Sauber before the whole radio transmission incident took place.
2. Silverstone-The Ferrari was strong there. Even Massa qualified 5th for that race and he was awful that year. By that point in the season the Ferrari was strong.
3. Germany Qualifying-Ferrari made the correct strategic decision to get Alonso on fresh tires in the final minutes of Q3 and he easily takes pole. Vettel commented afterwards that Red Bull should have done the same and switched to fresh tires. So that's a strategic victory.

I don't want to sound like I'm trying to take anything away from his performance but people exaggerate the position that he was in that year. The car was competitive most of the year. It was a year where the top few teams were relatively close together on pace. Strategy, execution and above all else, avoiding mistakes are what made the difference that year. Alonso performed extremely well that year.
Ok, so what did Schumacher do in 1998 that was so much better than what Alonso did in 2012? A great season but the 1998 Ferrari was comfortably second fastest and by quite a way. Schumacher only had the Mclaren's to worry about. In 2012 Not only were the Red Bull's and Mclaren's definitely faster he also had the Lotus which was similar if not a bit better and at times had the Sauber's and Force India's to worry about as well. He had far more people to "race" I'm not saying the car was a dud but It is probably the poorest in relation to it's rivals that I have seen challenge for the championship. Put to decent standard drivers in that car and nobody would think it was anything better than an upper midfield car.

Now Schumacher in 97 - That I consider a pretty similar year the only difference being a weaker driver in the lead car, very unreliable Mclaren's and taking out his championship rival in the final race. I do think that car is another that without an exceptional driver we would all be viewing as an upper midfield car.

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