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Siao7 wrote:

LKS1 wrote:

Siao7 wrote:

LKS1 wrote:

kleefton wrote:Kvyatt has to take most of the blame here because even though there was a gap, there were two cars in front of him and that gap was always going to close very quickly. He did a good job hugging the inside for as long as he did, but eventually momentum runs you wide in that corner and that is why Vettel had nowhere to go but hit Kimi.

I agree, but we're pretty much alone here in this view.

Additionally, Kimi turned in on Seb - and it all happened so quickly that Seb would have had to brake very hard to get out of the way, and if he did that there was more than a good chance of being hit in the rear.

It seems similar to the Bottas/Lewis incident to me, but telemetary must have shown that Bottas made a more serious error in view of the stewards penalising Bottas (edit - severely), but giving no penalties in this case.

Having said this, I do blame Seb for hitting his team mate rather than keeping his line and letting the collision occur between him and Kyvat.

I think in the split second that it all happened, he probably didn't have time to chose who to collide with.

I think you're right - he automatically swerved to his left when he saw Kyvat. He was moving right to avoid Kimi turning into him. A mistake on his part, he should have continued his line symmetrical with Kimi and let Kyvat hit him rather than swerving into his team mate.

Yeah, between the two of course, he should have chosen the other driver rather than his team mate. But I can't blame him on a split second decision, especially because I think Kvyat kind of startled him.

I agree, and for good reason - the same as happened when Lewis was startled to find Bottas out-braking himself in the previous race.

I blamed Bottas then ('cos of the stewards harsh penalties and Bottas own comments), and I consider this to be a similar incident where a driver out-braked himself and then said after that it was a risky move. Having said this, the stewards decided this time that it was a racing incident.

LKS1 wrote:I don't think Kyvat was able to hug the line all the way around the corner given his late braking move - and he knew both Seb and Kimi were on the other side of him.

Which is why (I think) he said it was a "risky" move - he knew the driver on his left would have to get out of his way.

Unluckily for Kimi, the driver on Kyvat's left did get out of the way - straight into Kimi who was himself cutting across Seb...

Vettel didn't have to get out of the way for Kvyat, he had already done so. Vettel's reflex action is the cause for the accident, not Vettel having to get out of the way. If you look at Kvyat's on-board, you can see there was plenty of room for Vettel on his right. Had he realized early enough somebody was coming up the inside, he might even have gone wheel to wheel with him. But he was surprised, and acted in a reflex, instead of racing Kvyat.

Fiki wrote:

LKS1 wrote:I don't think Kyvat was able to hug the line all the way around the corner given his late braking move - and he knew both Seb and Kimi were on the other side of him.

Which is why (I think) he said it was a "risky" move - he knew the driver on his left would have to get out of his way.

Unluckily for Kimi, the driver on Kyvat's left did get out of the way - straight into Kimi who was himself cutting across Seb...

Vettel didn't have to get out of the way for Kvyat, he had already done so. Vettel's reflex action is the cause for the accident, not Vettel having to get out of the way. If you look at Kvyat's on-board, you can see there was plenty of room for Vettel on his right. Had he realized early enough somebody was coming up the inside, he might even have gone wheel to wheel with him. But he was surprised, and acted in a reflex, instead of racing Kvyat.

I've watched it again from both Seb and Kyvat's perspective and still see Kyvat racing out of nowhere on the inside with Kimi cutting across towards the inside - both in a split second leaving Seb nowhere to go.

Perhaps Kyvat may have been able to continue hugging the inside line (bearing in mind this was necessary as there were 2 cars to his left), but I don't believe so. He was lucky that Seb was startled and turned to his left, thereby hitting Kimi who had turned sharply to his right - presumably thinking that Seb could get out of his way.

And it still boils down to whether or not I believe Kyvat was able to hug the corner knowing that the two Ferraris were to his left - and no, I don't. I think he out-braked himself.

Seb didn't expect this and neither did Kimi who wouldn't have cut across so sharply if he realised Seb had nowhere to go unless he got out of Kimi's way and hit Kyvat.

LKS1 wrote:

Fiki wrote:

LKS1 wrote:I don't think Kyvat was able to hug the line all the way around the corner given his late braking move - and he knew both Seb and Kimi were on the other side of him.

Which is why (I think) he said it was a "risky" move - he knew the driver on his left would have to get out of his way.

Unluckily for Kimi, the driver on Kyvat's left did get out of the way - straight into Kimi who was himself cutting across Seb...

Vettel didn't have to get out of the way for Kvyat, he had already done so. Vettel's reflex action is the cause for the accident, not Vettel having to get out of the way. If you look at Kvyat's on-board, you can see there was plenty of room for Vettel on his right. Had he realized early enough somebody was coming up the inside, he might even have gone wheel to wheel with him. But he was surprised, and acted in a reflex, instead of racing Kvyat.

I've watched it again from both Seb and Kyvat's perspective and still see Kyvat racing out of nowhere on the inside with Kimi cutting across towards the inside - both in a split second leaving Seb nowhere to go.

Perhaps Kyvat may have been able to continue hugging the inside line (bearing in mind this was necessary as there were 2 cars to his left), but I don't believe so. He was lucky that Seb was startled and turned to his left, thereby hitting Kimi who had turned sharply to his right - presumably thinking that Seb could get out of his way.

And it still boils down to whether or not I believe Kyvat was able to hug the corner knowing that the two Ferraris were to his left - and no, I don't. I think he out-braked himself.

Seb didn't expect this and neither did Kimi who wouldn't have cut across so sharply if he realised Seb had nowhere to go unless he got out of Kimi's way and hit Kyvat.

But I don't think it was necessary for Kvyat to keep right over to the inside. At the point of impact Raikkonen has a lot of unused track to his left for the Ferrari's to move into. It is a very wide track actually probably close to 6th car widths so plenty of room for everyone.

It was just unfortunate that Kimi is coming back across the track at the same point that Kvyat passes Vettel. Neither Kvyat or Kimi can be aware that this is happening the only person who could was Vettel and he panicked. He didn't need to jump out of the way of Kvyat like he did.

mikeyg123 wrote:

LKS1 wrote:

Fiki wrote:

LKS1 wrote:I don't think Kyvat was able to hug the line all the way around the corner given his late braking move - and he knew both Seb and Kimi were on the other side of him.

Which is why (I think) he said it was a "risky" move - he knew the driver on his left would have to get out of his way.

Unluckily for Kimi, the driver on Kyvat's left did get out of the way - straight into Kimi who was himself cutting across Seb...

Vettel didn't have to get out of the way for Kvyat, he had already done so. Vettel's reflex action is the cause for the accident, not Vettel having to get out of the way. If you look at Kvyat's on-board, you can see there was plenty of room for Vettel on his right. Had he realized early enough somebody was coming up the inside, he might even have gone wheel to wheel with him. But he was surprised, and acted in a reflex, instead of racing Kvyat.

I've watched it again from both Seb and Kyvat's perspective and still see Kyvat racing out of nowhere on the inside with Kimi cutting across towards the inside - both in a split second leaving Seb nowhere to go.

Perhaps Kyvat may have been able to continue hugging the inside line (bearing in mind this was necessary as there were 2 cars to his left), but I don't believe so. He was lucky that Seb was startled and turned to his left, thereby hitting Kimi who had turned sharply to his right - presumably thinking that Seb could get out of his way.

And it still boils down to whether or not I believe Kyvat was able to hug the corner knowing that the two Ferraris were to his left - and no, I don't. I think he out-braked himself.

Seb didn't expect this and neither did Kimi who wouldn't have cut across so sharply if he realised Seb had nowhere to go unless he got out of Kimi's way and hit Kyvat.

But I don't think it was necessary for Kvyat to keep right over to the inside. At the point of impact Raikkonen has a lot of unused track to his left for the Ferrari's to move into. It is a very wide track actually probably close to 6th car widths so plenty of room for everyone.

It was just unfortunate that Kimi is coming back across the track at the same point that Kvyat passes Vettel. Neither Kvyat or Kimi can be aware that this is happening the only person who could was Vettel and he panicked. He didn't need to jump out of the way of Kvyat like he did.

I agree, he should have continued the Kimi/Seb trajectory and let Kyvat run wide and hit him - but unfortunately it happened so quickly that Seb re-actively turned to his left - hitting Kimi who was right next to him on his left.

LKS1 wrote:

mikeyg123 wrote:

LKS1 wrote:I've watched it again from both Seb and Kyvat's perspective and still see Kyvat racing out of nowhere on the inside with Kimi cutting across towards the inside - both in a split second leaving Seb nowhere to go.

Perhaps Kyvat may have been able to continue hugging the inside line (bearing in mind this was necessary as there were 2 cars to his left), but I don't believe so. He was lucky that Seb was startled and turned to his left, thereby hitting Kimi who had turned sharply to his right - presumably thinking that Seb could get out of his way.

And it still boils down to whether or not I believe Kyvat was able to hug the corner knowing that the two Ferraris were to his left - and no, I don't. I think he out-braked himself.

Seb didn't expect this and neither did Kimi who wouldn't have cut across so sharply if he realised Seb had nowhere to go unless he got out of Kimi's way and hit Kyvat.

But I don't think it was necessary for Kvyat to keep right over to the inside. At the point of impact Raikkonen has a lot of unused track to his left for the Ferrari's to move into. It is a very wide track actually probably close to 6th car widths so plenty of room for everyone.

It was just unfortunate that Kimi is coming back across the track at the same point that Kvyat passes Vettel. Neither Kvyat or Kimi can be aware that this is happening the only person who could was Vettel and he panicked. He didn't need to jump out of the way of Kvyat like he did.

I agree, he should have continued the Kimi/Seb trajectory and let Kyvat run wide and hit him - but unfortunately it happened so quickly that Seb re-actively turned to his left - hitting Kimi who was right next to him on his left.

I still don't understand why you think Kvyat outbraked himself, there is no evidence of that at all, while the fact that he was able to hug the inside line proves he braked enough to be able to do that.
If you look at the Kvyat on-board, you see he brakes early enough behind Vettel, at the end of the straight, to leave quite a gap between him and Vettel. So no outbraking at all. The speed difference between Vettel and Kvyat is a consequence of Vettel minding Räikkönen, whose speed was dictated by having to brake for Rosberg cutting inside. It is this speed difference, rather than the suprise up the inside line, that startles Vettel. This made him take more avoiding action than was necessary to "avoid" Kvyat.
The speed Kvyat actually had (rather than Vettel's perception of it), makes it very unlikely that Kvyat would have hit Räikkönen further down the road, especially if Vettel had lifted/braked in time. What action would have been necessary between Kvyat and Räikkönen further down the road is academic, but the fact is that Kvyat was on the inside, and Räikkönen would have been the one to stay on his left. He would have been on the inside for the next corner, provided he had the speed to stay alongside Kvyat. But as I said, that's academic.

JohnnyGuitar wrote:Deflection from Vettel. Deep down he knows he ran into his teammate and is trying to shift the blame.

To be fair to him though, he hasn't the benefit of seeing it from where we have. He might change his opinion when he sees the wide shot.

Yep and Yep.

We've seen this kind of Seb before but maybe not as "mad" it was interesting really. I think Seb was more trying to prove to his team the point that he felt it was not his fault more than the fact it was his fault.

Looking at the footage, Sebs reaction was a bit "OMG" which is not what you would expect from an F1 driver. If it wasn't his team mate that he knocked out, would he have reacted the same way ? I don't think so.

When the Ferrari boss him self says, that's racing - pretty quickly you know it was. He's not exactly going to openly criticise his best driver is he?

This kind of reminds me when he and Mark Webber collided, Seb was quick to act like he was the innocent one in that.

Still he's an F1 driver and at times even the ones I support have been quick to accuse other drivers then they realise actually... it was their mistake.

Makes me so happy it's reached 5 pages. Vettels changed his tune. Nuff said

Thank you all for your respectful debate on this topic

Fiki wrote:

LKS1 wrote:

mikeyg123 wrote:

LKS1 wrote:I've watched it again from both Seb and Kyvat's perspective and still see Kyvat racing out of nowhere on the inside with Kimi cutting across towards the inside - both in a split second leaving Seb nowhere to go.

Perhaps Kyvat may have been able to continue hugging the inside line (bearing in mind this was necessary as there were 2 cars to his left), but I don't believe so. He was lucky that Seb was startled and turned to his left, thereby hitting Kimi who had turned sharply to his right - presumably thinking that Seb could get out of his way.

And it still boils down to whether or not I believe Kyvat was able to hug the corner knowing that the two Ferraris were to his left - and no, I don't. I think he out-braked himself.

Seb didn't expect this and neither did Kimi who wouldn't have cut across so sharply if he realised Seb had nowhere to go unless he got out of Kimi's way and hit Kyvat.

But I don't think it was necessary for Kvyat to keep right over to the inside. At the point of impact Raikkonen has a lot of unused track to his left for the Ferrari's to move into. It is a very wide track actually probably close to 6th car widths so plenty of room for everyone.

It was just unfortunate that Kimi is coming back across the track at the same point that Kvyat passes Vettel. Neither Kvyat or Kimi can be aware that this is happening the only person who could was Vettel and he panicked. He didn't need to jump out of the way of Kvyat like he did.

I agree, he should have continued the Kimi/Seb trajectory and let Kyvat run wide and hit him - but unfortunately it happened so quickly that Seb re-actively turned to his left - hitting Kimi who was right next to him on his left.

I still don't understand why you think Kvyat outbraked himself, there is no evidence of that at all, while the fact that he was able to hug the inside line proves he braked enough to be able to do that.
If you look at the Kvyat on-board, you see he brakes early enough behind Vettel, at the end of the straight, to leave quite a gap between him and Vettel. So no outbraking at all. The speed difference between Vettel and Kvyat is a consequence of Vettel minding Räikkönen, whose speed was dictated by having to brake for Rosberg cutting inside. It is this speed difference, rather than the suprise up the inside line, that startles Vettel. This made him take more avoiding action than was necessary to "avoid" Kvyat.
The speed Kvyat actually had (rather than Vettel's perception of it), makes it very unlikely that Kvyat would have hit Räikkönen further down the road, especially if Vettel had lifted/braked in time. What action would have been necessary between Kvyat and Räikkönen further down the road is academic, but the fact is that Kvyat was on the inside, and Räikkönen would have been the one to stay on his left. He would have been on the inside for the next corner, provided he had the speed to stay alongside Kvyat. But as I said, that's academic.

Further down the road after the collision, Kvyat was all the way to the left side of the track. He would most likely have hit or pushed Kimi towards the outer side of the track.

LKS1 wrote:
I agree, he should have continued the Kimi/Seb trajectory and let Kyvat run wide and hit him - but unfortunately it happened so quickly that Seb re-actively turned to his left - hitting Kimi who was right next to him on his left.

Kvyat could run as wide as he wanted to and it was up to the others to avoid him. He was further ahead on the race track closer to the apex and closer to the next corner that both Kimi and Vettel.
If he drifted wide on the exit, he would only need to make sure he left a cars width to ensure he didn't run kimi off. He had already cleared Vettel.

Vettel was compromised by Kimi sliding before the corner, so he has to slow and readjust his line to the inside. But before he did that, there was a 2 car width gap between Vettel and the inside of the track.

Also on Kvyat, he didn't lock up, no smoke, no readjusting just driving through the corner how he wanted.

Siao7 wrote:

Fiki wrote:

LKS1 wrote:

mikeyg123 wrote:

LKS1 wrote:I've watched it again from both Seb and Kyvat's perspective and still see Kyvat racing out of nowhere on the inside with Kimi cutting across towards the inside - both in a split second leaving Seb nowhere to go.

Perhaps Kyvat may have been able to continue hugging the inside line (bearing in mind this was necessary as there were 2 cars to his left), but I don't believe so. He was lucky that Seb was startled and turned to his left, thereby hitting Kimi who had turned sharply to his right - presumably thinking that Seb could get out of his way.

And it still boils down to whether or not I believe Kyvat was able to hug the corner knowing that the two Ferraris were to his left - and no, I don't. I think he out-braked himself.

Seb didn't expect this and neither did Kimi who wouldn't have cut across so sharply if he realised Seb had nowhere to go unless he got out of Kimi's way and hit Kyvat.

But I don't think it was necessary for Kvyat to keep right over to the inside. At the point of impact Raikkonen has a lot of unused track to his left for the Ferrari's to move into. It is a very wide track actually probably close to 6th car widths so plenty of room for everyone.

It was just unfortunate that Kimi is coming back across the track at the same point that Kvyat passes Vettel. Neither Kvyat or Kimi can be aware that this is happening the only person who could was Vettel and he panicked. He didn't need to jump out of the way of Kvyat like he did.

I agree, he should have continued the Kimi/Seb trajectory and let Kyvat run wide and hit him - but unfortunately it happened so quickly that Seb re-actively turned to his left - hitting Kimi who was right next to him on his left.

I still don't understand why you think Kvyat outbraked himself, there is no evidence of that at all, while the fact that he was able to hug the inside line proves he braked enough to be able to do that.
If you look at the Kvyat on-board, you see he brakes early enough behind Vettel, at the end of the straight, to leave quite a gap between him and Vettel. So no outbraking at all. The speed difference between Vettel and Kvyat is a consequence of Vettel minding Räikkönen, whose speed was dictated by having to brake for Rosberg cutting inside. It is this speed difference, rather than the suprise up the inside line, that startles Vettel. This made him take more avoiding action than was necessary to "avoid" Kvyat.
The speed Kvyat actually had (rather than Vettel's perception of it), makes it very unlikely that Kvyat would have hit Räikkönen further down the road, especially if Vettel had lifted/braked in time. What action would have been necessary between Kvyat and Räikkönen further down the road is academic, but the fact is that Kvyat was on the inside, and Räikkönen would have been the one to stay on his left. He would have been on the inside for the next corner, provided he had the speed to stay alongside Kvyat. But as I said, that's academic.

Further down the road after the collision, Kvyat was all the way to the left side of the track. He would most likely have hit or pushed Kimi towards the outer side of the track.

I don't see why Kimi has the right to sweep all the way back across the track? Kvyat left a cars width to his left which Kimi could easily have put his car in.

mikeyg123 wrote:
I don't see why Kimi has the right to sweep all the way back across the track? Kvyat left a cars width to his left which Kimi could easily have put his car in.

Quite right, it may have been so, I never said that he wouldn't have space. I said that he may have been hit or pushed to the outside. I think they could have hit each other as Kimi was pointing his car towards the apex (correcting his overshooting of the corner) and Kvyat was running wide (and as he admitted he didn't know that Kimi was there).

Siao7 wrote: Further down the road after the collision, Kvyat was all the way to the left side of the track. He would most likely have hit or pushed Kimi towards the outer side of the track.

Or "overtaken him" as it is commonly known.
Plus (looking at the footage as, not just the stills (not that the stills really tell a different story)) to me it looks like there is a about cars width between him and the edge of the track even at the widest point of his exit of the corner.

wolfticket wrote:

Siao7 wrote: Further down the road after the collision, Kvyat was all the way to the left side of the track. He would most likely have hit or pushed Kimi towards the outer side of the track.

Or "overtaken him" as it is commonly known. Plus to me it looks like there is a about cars width between him and the edge of the track even at the widest point of his exit of the corner.

There is. Let me get this clear, I didn't mean that he'd hang him out to dry. Just pushed towards the outside. Which is fine. But as Kimi had started pointing towards the inside, I think there could have been a collision of them two.

All if's and but's obviously!

slide wrote:vettel is fine when everything goes his way- he was like this at red bull - always expecting webber to jump out of the way ......and some of vettels coments on the radio are not those of a champion- he should be ashamed and apologise to kyham

it was considered a racing accident by everyone except vettel - get over yourself

It's easy to point fingers at Vettel, or any driver. They have a very low and narrow field of view. Anyone who has put on a helmet knows that. It's easy to criticize when you have 8 cameras and 27 replays to base an opinion on, or a point of view concerning the driver.

Lt. Drebin wrote:

slide wrote:vettel is fine when everything goes his way- he was like this at red bull - always expecting webber to jump out of the way ......and some of vettels coments on the radio are not those of a champion- he should be ashamed and apologise to kyham

it was considered a racing accident by everyone except vettel - get over yourself

It's easy to point fingers at Vettel, or any driver. They have a very low and narrow field of view. Anyone who has put on a helmet knows that. It's easy to criticize when you have 8 cameras and 27 replays to base an opinion on, or a point of view concerning the driver.

Funny thing is, Vettel watched it and conceded that it was a racing incident...

Spoke too soon Mr. Slide?

Siao7 wrote:

wolfticket wrote:

Siao7 wrote: Further down the road after the collision, Kvyat was all the way to the left side of the track. He would most likely have hit or pushed Kimi towards the outer side of the track.

Or "overtaken him" as it is commonly known. Plus to me it looks like there is a about cars width between him and the edge of the track even at the widest point of his exit of the corner.

There is. Let me get this clear, I didn't mean that he'd hang him out to dry. Just pushed towards the outside. Which is fine. But as Kimi had started pointing towards the inside, I think there could have been a collision of them two.

All if's and but's obviously!

You know that still is of Kimi mid incident, not just running wide and pointing toward the in next corner, right? Prior to that he'd already run wide onto the outside of the to corner and was likely to take a wider exit than Kyvat did anyway. Unless he tried to cut to the inside late, by which time Kvyat would already be at least alongside and probably ahead.

wolfticket wrote:

Siao7 wrote:

wolfticket wrote:

Siao7 wrote: Further down the road after the collision, Kvyat was all the way to the left side of the track. He would most likely have hit or pushed Kimi towards the outer side of the track.

Or "overtaken him" as it is commonly known. Plus to me it looks like there is a about cars width between him and the edge of the track even at the widest point of his exit of the corner.

There is. Let me get this clear, I didn't mean that he'd hang him out to dry. Just pushed towards the outside. Which is fine. But as Kimi had started pointing towards the inside, I think there could have been a collision of them two.

All if's and but's obviously!

You know that still is of Kimi mid incident, not just running wide and pointing toward the in next corner, right? Prior to that he'd already run wide onto the outside of the to corner and was likely to take a wider exit than Kyvat did anyway. Unless he tried to cut to the inside late, by which time Kvyat would already be at least alongside and probably ahead.

Yes I know, this is after Kimi's incident with Vettel. Irrelevant to my point obviously.

Prior to that as you said, he had overshot his line, went wide and he was correcting, pointing to the apex, moving towards the inside, coming to the path of Vettel. Ok so far? So with Kimi going towards the inside and Kvyat going towards the outside, there was a chance of them two coming together, that's what I'm saying.

Quite easy to get frankly, not sure what confuses you

Siao7 wrote:

mikeyg123 wrote:
I don't see why Kimi has the right to sweep all the way back across the track? Kvyat left a cars width to his left which Kimi could easily have put his car in.

Quite right, it may have been so, I never said that he wouldn't have space. I said that he may have been hit or pushed to the outside. I think they could have hit each other as Kimi was pointing his car towards the apex (correcting his overshooting of the corner) and Kvyat was running wide (and as he admitted he didn't know that Kimi was there).

Yes if neither driver had made allowances for the other being there they could well have hit.

mikeyg123 wrote:

Siao7 wrote:

mikeyg123 wrote:
I don't see why Kimi has the right to sweep all the way back across the track? Kvyat left a cars width to his left which Kimi could easily have put his car in.

Quite right, it may have been so, I never said that he wouldn't have space. I said that he may have been hit or pushed to the outside. I think they could have hit each other as Kimi was pointing his car towards the apex (correcting his overshooting of the corner) and Kvyat was running wide (and as he admitted he didn't know that Kimi was there).

Yes if neither driver had made allowances for the other being there they could well have hit.

Luckily enough these cars are equipped with a device to aid in such a situation! It is purpose built for the express purpose of providing the driver with the unique ability to adjust the angle of his front tyres thus changing the trajectory of the entire car! The most common name is steering wheel, which is a bit of a misnomer as it is in fact not a wheel at all and should never contact the ground as the other four wheels do. In fact if it is in contact with the ground it is most likely inoperative and something has gone seriously wrong for that particular drivers day.


And in case anyone is wondering yes this is just a joke*
No not the fact about steering wheels being an actual thing**
Steering wheels exist***

Siao7 wrote:

Fiki wrote:

LKS1 wrote:

mikeyg123 wrote:

LKS1 wrote:I've watched it again from both Seb and Kyvat's perspective and still see Kyvat racing out of nowhere on the inside with Kimi cutting across towards the inside - both in a split second leaving Seb nowhere to go.

Perhaps Kyvat may have been able to continue hugging the inside line (bearing in mind this was necessary as there were 2 cars to his left), but I don't believe so. He was lucky that Seb was startled and turned to his left, thereby hitting Kimi who had turned sharply to his right - presumably thinking that Seb could get out of his way.

And it still boils down to whether or not I believe Kyvat was able to hug the corner knowing that the two Ferraris were to his left - and no, I don't. I think he out-braked himself.

Seb didn't expect this and neither did Kimi who wouldn't have cut across so sharply if he realised Seb had nowhere to go unless he got out of Kimi's way and hit Kyvat.

But I don't think it was necessary for Kvyat to keep right over to the inside. At the point of impact Raikkonen has a lot of unused track to his left for the Ferrari's to move into. It is a very wide track actually probably close to 6th car widths so plenty of room for everyone.

It was just unfortunate that Kimi is coming back across the track at the same point that Kvyat passes Vettel. Neither Kvyat or Kimi can be aware that this is happening the only person who could was Vettel and he panicked. He didn't need to jump out of the way of Kvyat like he did.

I agree, he should have continued the Kimi/Seb trajectory and let Kyvat run wide and hit him - but unfortunately it happened so quickly that Seb re-actively turned to his left - hitting Kimi who was right next to him on his left.

I still don't understand why you think Kvyat outbraked himself, there is no evidence of that at all, while the fact that he was able to hug the inside line proves he braked enough to be able to do that.
If you look at the Kvyat on-board, you see he brakes early enough behind Vettel, at the end of the straight, to leave quite a gap between him and Vettel. So no outbraking at all. The speed difference between Vettel and Kvyat is a consequence of Vettel minding Räikkönen, whose speed was dictated by having to brake for Rosberg cutting inside. It is this speed difference, rather than the suprise up the inside line, that startles Vettel. This made him take more avoiding action than was necessary to "avoid" Kvyat.
The speed Kvyat actually had (rather than Vettel's perception of it), makes it very unlikely that Kvyat would have hit Räikkönen further down the road, especially if Vettel had lifted/braked in time. What action would have been necessary between Kvyat and Räikkönen further down the road is academic, but the fact is that Kvyat was on the inside, and Räikkönen would have been the one to stay on his left. He would have been on the inside for the next corner, provided he had the speed to stay alongside Kvyat. But as I said, that's academic.

Further down the road after the collision, Kvyat was all the way to the left side of the track. He would most likely have hit or pushed Kimi towards the outer side of the track.

Doesn't that just highlight Kvyat making use of the space created after the collision between the Ferrari's. He didn't have to take such a tight line anymore.

Lotus49 wrote:
Doesn't that just highlight Kvyat making use of the space created after the collision between the Ferrari's. He didn't have to take such a tight line anymore.

Good point, that could very well be true.

Yes, the screen shot simply shows Kyvat taking up a defensive position for the up coming left hander imo.

I think Vettel lacks spacial awareness. We've seen this in the past with incidents vs Webber in Turkey 2010, Kubica in Spa 2010 and Karthikeyan in Malaysia 2012.

I remember with the Kubica incident he had a rant over the radio, claiming Kubica forced him onto the grass (of course, no such thing happened), and he ended up looking rather silly.

Perhaps Vettel should calm down before he goes on these rants. He looked very silly after this one, and after the one at Spa last year.

Siao7 wrote:

Lt. Drebin wrote:

slide wrote:vettel is fine when everything goes his way- he was like this at red bull - always expecting webber to jump out of the way ......and some of vettels coments on the radio are not those of a champion- he should be ashamed and apologise to kyham

it was considered a racing accident by everyone except vettel - get over yourself

It's easy to point fingers at Vettel, or any driver. They have a very low and narrow field of view. Anyone who has put on a helmet knows that. It's easy to criticize when you have 8 cameras and 27 replays to base an opinion on, or a point of view concerning the driver.

Funny thing is, Vettel watched it and conceded that it was a racing incident...

Spoke too soon Mr. Slide?

......what after the race ?.....he should have kept quiet until he watched the replay - it changes nothing - a4 times champ should show a little bit of class and style which vettel certainly didn't

slide wrote:a4 times champ should show a little bit of class and style which vettel certainly didn't

And just like Alonso with Herbert - thank f**k he didn't. Seriously why does everyone want to see drivers being boring all of a sudden? We say we want the drivers to be more emotive and when we finally see an argument between drivers we wish that he had not said anything and then issued a boring answer to the press after he had cooled down?

I'd take Vettel & Kvyat arguing in the pre-podium room and Alonso calling Herbert out live on air over them both waiting and keeping quiet until they calmed down any day.

Black_Flag_11 wrote:

slide wrote:a4 times champ should show a little bit of class and style which vettel certainly didn't

And just like Alonso with Herbert - thank f**k he didn't. Seriously why does everyone want to see drivers being boring all of a sudden? We say we want the drivers to be more emotive and when we finally see an argument between drivers we wish that he had not said anything and then issued a boring answer to the press after he had cooled down?

I'd take Vettel & Kvyat arguing in the pre-podium room and Alonso calling Herbert out live on air over them both waiting and keeping quiet until they calmed down any day.

Totally agree. I'm not advocating blatant rudeness for the sake of getting in the media, but the good times of people like Eddie Irvine talking straight, not management speak are missed. Even Kimi's gone quiet recently.

I love a bit of agro. Makes for more interesting racing imo.

davidheath461 wrote:I think Vettel lacks spacial awareness. We've seen this in the past with incidents vs Webber in Turkey 2010, Kubica in Spa 2010 and Karthikeyan in Malaysia 2012.

I remember with the Kubica incident he had a rant over the radio, claiming Kubica forced him onto the grass (of course, no such thing happened), and he ended up looking rather silly.

Perhaps Vettel should calm down before he goes on these rants. He looked very silly after this one, and after the one at Spa last year.

Could you remind me of what happened between Kubica and Vettel? I can't find it for 2010.

Asphalt_World wrote:Even Kimi's gone quiet recently.

He was too busy listening to his team-mate's ranting!

I think Kvyat may have made himself a few new fans. I thought he handled the whole discussion as well as he drove in the race. Kudos. I think what I liked was the fact that he didn't even bother to really try and counter or disagree Vettels points. He just laughed it off with "that's racing".. and I agree.

Vettel on the other hand frustrates me. He interviews better than almost any other driver, has a great sense of humour and is a superb driver, but just when I'm starting to like him he does something like this. And backing down later doesn't save face, just makes you look a bit more of an donkey frankly.

Still, great race by the pair of them.

DOLOMITE wrote:I think Kvyat may have made himself a few new fans. I thought he handled the whole discussion as well as he drove in the race. Kudos. I think what I liked was the fact that he didn't even bother to really try and counter or disagree Vettels points. He just laughed it off with "that's racing".. and I agree.

Vettel on the other hand frustrates me. He interviews better than almost any other driver, has a great sense of humour and is a superb driver, but just when I'm starting to like him he does something like this. And backing down later doesn't save face, just makes you look a bit more of an donkey frankly.

Still, great race by the pair of them.

You see, This is part of Vettel's personality that I quite like. Most drivers would have moaned on the radio but not confronted him very publicly after the race. I like that fact that Vettel really doesn't seem to care about looking like a prat and I just don't think he's the sort of person who cares too much about saving face or whatever. People used to praise Webber for being straight talking but I actually think Vettel is much more so, sometimes to his detriment.

I guess what I really mean is that we all have flaws and I find it quite refreshing that Vettel doesn't seem to care about hiding them.

DOLOMITE wrote:I think Kvyat may have made himself a few new fans. I thought he handled the whole discussion as well as he drove in the race. Kudos. I think what I liked was the fact that he didn't even bother to really try and counter or disagree Vettels points. He just laughed it off with "that's racing".. and I agree.

Vettel on the other hand frustrates me. He interviews better than almost any other driver, has a great sense of humour and is a superb driver, but just when I'm starting to like him he does something like this. And backing down later doesn't save face, just makes you look a bit more of an donkey frankly.

Still, great race by the pair of them.

And yet, Kvyat would go to say, "yeah, it was a risky move of course, I agree with Seb" later on when the emotions cooled down.

When people meet each other directly in a moment of a heated exchange and their throats are chocked up with emotions, replying with some "c'est la vie" or "whatever man" or "that's racing", it does not have to mean anything of a substance but just avoidance of unpleasantness of the exchange. Kvyat was apparently the one to approach Vettel, to initiate the conversation, but when faced with high emotion of accusations of a dangerous (risky) driving, he goes high emotion himself and closes himself with such a reply "Nothing to talk about". Such is simply natural human reactions for both guys, nothing to go "making fans" there, on base of such. IMO.

Fiki wrote:

davidheath461 wrote:I think Vettel lacks spacial awareness. We've seen this in the past with incidents vs Webber in Turkey 2010, Kubica in Spa 2010 and Karthikeyan in Malaysia 2012.

I remember with the Kubica incident he had a rant over the radio, claiming Kubica forced him onto the grass (of course, no such thing happened), and he ended up looking rather silly.

Perhaps Vettel should calm down before he goes on these rants. He looked very silly after this one, and after the one at Spa last year.

Could you remind me of what happened between Kubica and Vettel? I can't find it for 2010.

Well when you dislike a driver you will make stuff up Lol!

Maybe he was referring to Melbourne '09!

What a perfect joke from former F1 driver Nick Heidfeld. “A crime against the racing gods!”

Heidfeld says that, Vettel-Kvyat incident was just a normal racing incident

Read Full - http://www.thisisf1.com/2016/04/20/vett ... -heidfeld/

Where was that sense of humour when he was in F1?

(Technically shouldn't this thread be called 'A cwime against the racing gods'?)

Vettel Fan wrote:Kimi didn't do Seb any favors in the turn either. Seb was unfortunately stuck between the 2.

Kimi was well ahead of him. There was lot of space in the inside anyways. I do not think his plan was too allow 2 cars slip past the inside. He was going to move right to position the car of next corner so that he could get good exit and Kvyat from outside was going to fight for that position. The way I see it Kvyat and Kimi were ok. Vettel should have just backed off and followed either of these two. But as other said he panicked and thought Kvyat was going to slam him and Kimi causing a big accident

Balibari wrote:Where was that sense of humour when he was in F1?

(Technically shouldn't this thread be called 'A cwime against the racing gods'?)

It was there but hard to notice - kind of symbolic of his F1 career. I remember ITV did one of the magazine pieces for the German GP in which they asked all the German drivers to tell a joke. They went up to Nick Heidfeld, asked him to give an example of German humour and without missing a beat he replied seriously "there is no humour in Germany" and went about his business. Not laugh out funny, but I like that style of humour. I don't remember at all what the other drivers said. I think Vettel laughed and said he couldn't say it on tv, or something.

When I opened it, I thought this thread would have been about Heidfeld's career progress.

Fiki wrote:

davidheath461 wrote:I think Vettel lacks spacial awareness. We've seen this in the past with incidents vs Webber in Turkey 2010, Kubica in Spa 2010 and Karthikeyan in Malaysia 2012.

I remember with the Kubica incident he had a rant over the radio, claiming Kubica forced him onto the grass (of course, no such thing happened), and he ended up looking rather silly.

Perhaps Vettel should calm down before he goes on these rants. He looked very silly after this one, and after the one at Spa last year.

Could you remind me of what happened between Kubica and Vettel? I can't find it for 2010.

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x2k0yl ... art-1_auto

around 10:45

Monza 2011 is another example of Vettel's lack of awareness. He took the grass when overtaking Alonso even though Alonso had given him enough room.

Rockie wrote:

Fiki wrote:

davidheath461 wrote:I think Vettel lacks spacial awareness. We've seen this in the past with incidents vs Webber in Turkey 2010, Kubica in Spa 2010 and Karthikeyan in Malaysia 2012.

I remember with the Kubica incident he had a rant over the radio, claiming Kubica forced him onto the grass (of course, no such thing happened), and he ended up looking rather silly.

Perhaps Vettel should calm down before he goes on these rants. He looked very silly after this one, and after the one at Spa last year.

Could you remind me of what happened between Kubica and Vettel? I can't find it for 2010.

Well when you dislike a driver you will make stuff up Lol!

Maybe he was referring to Melbourne '09!

Sorry, i'm not following...