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In my opinion, it's very difficult to take Ferrari seriously in their bid to catch Mercedes if they cannot put a driver in the second Ferrari that is capable of challenging, pushing Vettel and keeping him honest. Vettel's brilliance notwithstanding, the caveat from the RB years was that Vettel either had a dominant car (2011,2013) or perhaps too compliant a teammate. Ferrari made a good assumption that Vettel, being the most successful driver should lead their campaign. However on the basis of 2014 Vettel most certainly was not the "fastest" driver nor even the "best of the rest", if you consider how Ricciardo sometimes made him look pedestrian. Surely Ferrari need to put a hungry driver such as a Ricciardo or Verstappen in the second car to establish what their leading edge driver performance really is?

Ferrari don't exactly have a stellar recent history of allowing 2 lead drivers to go at it head to head, and Vettel is probably the perfect driver to have when a team is pretty much gearing itself up to throw its weight behind a 'main man'. Might not be want the fans want to see, but I don't see it changing any time soon, even if/when Kimi leaves at the end of the year.

I think that, in the position that Ferrari are in now (trying to catch Mercedes), it would be wise to introduce a second competitive driver to the team. That way the drivers could push each other (and the team) forward. Kimi is a spent force. He's nowhere near Vettel's class right now and I think their decision to renew him for this year despite his abysmal performances in 2014 and 2015, reflects poorly on their organization.

I see what you are getting at- Vettel was storming in the Red Bull, but Ricciardo came in and did better, so how do we know that if Ricciardp was in the other Ferrari it would not be splitting the Mercs? Right?

Same can be said about anyone.

How do we know if that was the fastest Mclaren could go. Button is not the fastest driver and Alonso just did 0.1 ahead so may be much younger and faster could have got into top 10? Same thing about Williams, Bottas said he did not have grip for some reason and Felipe probably did a average job too behind STR so a faster driver could have got better result ? Kimi said if it was warmer condition they could do better and he struggled in first 3 corners of the lap. I think Vettel Q3 lap was great. Hamilton, Vettel used 14laps and Rosberg, Kimi 13laps so no point for Ferrari to go again was waste tyre.

ElevenTenths wrote:In my opinion, it's very difficult to take Ferrari seriously in their bid to catch Mercedes if they cannot put a driver in the second Ferrari that is capable of challenging, pushing Vettel and keeping him honest. Vettel's brilliance notwithstanding, the caveat from the RB years was that Vettel either had a dominant car (2011,2013) or perhaps too compliant a teammate. Ferrari made a good assumption that Vettel, being the most successful driver should lead their campaign. However on the basis of 2014 Vettel most certainly was not the "fastest" driver nor even the "best of the rest", if you consider how Ricciardo sometimes made him look pedestrian. Surely Ferrari need to put a hungry driver such as a Ricciardo or Verstappen in the second car to establish what their leading edge driver performance really is?

Even though Vettel is my favourite driver, I absolutely agree. There's no objective proof that Vettel is better than Alonso was, or is even better than Ricciardo, but we CAN show proof that Alonso was better due to the HUGE margin he had to Raikkonen, and Ricciardo easily beat Vettel. Who's to say Vettel wasn't at his best?
I personally believe he did underperform in 2014, but Ferrari should at least test him. For or we know, and I'm being the Devil's Advocate here, is that Vettel is 0.4 seconds a lap slower than Hamilton, which would mean the vast gap to Mercedes is mostly driver-related.

And FFS, Ferrari should stop acting like they need a Lead Driver who is also their meditation coach/manager/unifier/saint. Get a fast driver, and hire an effing Manager/Motivation coach/Guru for the motivation and leadership that it always seem to need. Ferrari is my favourite, but them always insisting that the Driver has to be like a benevolent king is so much BS. A driver is one employee out of 700. He needs to be able to drive fast, set up the car well, work with the engineers. He's not a motivational speaker!

this seems an extension of the silly season 2016 thread and I'll make the same comment: already? Sheesh

Ferrari put Kimi on a one year contract most likely for this reason. At the time Ric was in a contract and the other options weren't particularly exciting. This year most people believe that Kimi is keeping the seat warm for another driver. It just means Ferrari aren't going to make any panic buys and are taking their time. It's not as though Kimi is completely rubbish after all, although I agree he's looking past his prime

Zoue wrote:this seems an extension of the silly season 2016 thread and I'll make the same comment: already? Sheesh

Ferrari put Kimi on a one year contract most likely for this reason. At the time Ric was in a contract and the other options weren't particularly exciting. This year most people believe that Kimi is keeping the seat warm for another driver. It just means Ferrari aren't going to make any panic buys and are taking their time. It's not as though Kimi is completely rubbish after all, although I agree he's looking past his prime

Isn't it? Kimi has been demolished by the largest margin of any teammate tandem in F1 both in 2014 and 2015. Now of course you have to factor in that he has had two very strong teammates but, none-the less, he has been rubbish. He has routinely been out-qualified by slower cars and has made numerous careless errors during race weekends. He has become, arguably, the worst qualifier in F1.

You make a salient point though about the timing and the contracts. I think Ferrari may indeed have just been waiting for a better pool of free agents to bid on.

sandman1347 wrote:

Zoue wrote:this seems an extension of the silly season 2016 thread and I'll make the same comment: already? Sheesh

Ferrari put Kimi on a one year contract most likely for this reason. At the time Ric was in a contract and the other options weren't particularly exciting. This year most people believe that Kimi is keeping the seat warm for another driver. It just means Ferrari aren't going to make any panic buys and are taking their time. It's not as though Kimi is completely rubbish after all, although I agree he's looking past his prime

Isn't it? Kimi has been demolished by the largest margin of any teammate tandem in F1 both in 2014 and 2015. Now of course you have to factor in that he has had two very strong teammates but, none-the less, he has been rubbish. He has routinely been out-qualified by slower cars and has made numerous careless errors during race weekends. He has become, arguably, the worst qualifier in F1.

You make a salient point though about the timing and the contracts. I think Ferrari may indeed have just been waiting for a better pool of free agents to bid on.

tbh at the beginning of last year Rosberg qualified worse than Kimi relative to his team mate more than once but because of his car advantage no-one noticed. Kimi suffered in the mid-pack as a result, while Rosberg just suffered a minor blemish to his reputation but managed not to lose too much face by starting on the front row anyway. Too often people just look at the superficial without digging deeper.

But I'd agree that Kimi's qualifying is below par and this impacts the results he's able to get. I just don't think he's as poor as some make out.

That's true. The dominance of Mercedes in recent times has masked Rosberg's errors and minimised the penalties for those errors.

Zoue wrote:

sandman1347 wrote:

Zoue wrote:this seems an extension of the silly season 2016 thread and I'll make the same comment: already? Sheesh

Ferrari put Kimi on a one year contract most likely for this reason. At the time Ric was in a contract and the other options weren't particularly exciting. This year most people believe that Kimi is keeping the seat warm for another driver. It just means Ferrari aren't going to make any panic buys and are taking their time. It's not as though Kimi is completely rubbish after all, although I agree he's looking past his prime

Isn't it? Kimi has been demolished by the largest margin of any teammate tandem in F1 both in 2014 and 2015. Now of course you have to factor in that he has had two very strong teammates but, none-the less, he has been rubbish. He has routinely been out-qualified by slower cars and has made numerous careless errors during race weekends. He has become, arguably, the worst qualifier in F1.

You make a salient point though about the timing and the contracts. I think Ferrari may indeed have just been waiting for a better pool of free agents to bid on.

tbh at the beginning of last year Rosberg qualified worse than Kimi relative to his team mate more than once but because of his car advantage no-one noticed. Kimi suffered in the mid-pack as a result, while Rosberg just suffered a minor blemish to his reputation but managed not to lose too much face by starting on the front row anyway. Too often people just look at the superficial without digging deeper.

But I'd agree that Kimi's qualifying is below par and this impacts the results he's able to get. I just don't think he's as poor as some make out.

1 or 2 blips on the radar for Rosberg doesn't add up to 2 years of crystal clear embarrassment by Kimi. I agree that the car has protected Rosberg on a couple of occasions but Nico's performance overall has been steady and consistent. The reality is that there was a larger gap between Ferrari and Williams than there was between Mercedes and Ferrari for much of the season yet Kimi made things exciting between himself and Bottas for 4th place.

To be clear; this has nothing to do with Sebastian Vettel. It's just about Kimi and the fact that he clearly does not belong in a top seat anymore. Even if they felt that this offseason would provide better options, Ferrari should have given the seat to another driver. There are plenty of drivers in the paddock who would happily sign a 1 year deal with Ferrari. Their complacency with Kimi sends a bad message IMO.

sandman1347 wrote:

Zoue wrote:

sandman1347 wrote:

Zoue wrote:this seems an extension of the silly season 2016 thread and I'll make the same comment: already? Sheesh

Ferrari put Kimi on a one year contract most likely for this reason. At the time Ric was in a contract and the other options weren't particularly exciting. This year most people believe that Kimi is keeping the seat warm for another driver. It just means Ferrari aren't going to make any panic buys and are taking their time. It's not as though Kimi is completely rubbish after all, although I agree he's looking past his prime

Isn't it? Kimi has been demolished by the largest margin of any teammate tandem in F1 both in 2014 and 2015. Now of course you have to factor in that he has had two very strong teammates but, none-the less, he has been rubbish. He has routinely been out-qualified by slower cars and has made numerous careless errors during race weekends. He has become, arguably, the worst qualifier in F1.

You make a salient point though about the timing and the contracts. I think Ferrari may indeed have just been waiting for a better pool of free agents to bid on.

tbh at the beginning of last year Rosberg qualified worse than Kimi relative to his team mate more than once but because of his car advantage no-one noticed. Kimi suffered in the mid-pack as a result, while Rosberg just suffered a minor blemish to his reputation but managed not to lose too much face by starting on the front row anyway. Too often people just look at the superficial without digging deeper.

But I'd agree that Kimi's qualifying is below par and this impacts the results he's able to get. I just don't think he's as poor as some make out.

1 or 2 blips on the radar for Rosberg doesn't add up to 2 years of crystal clear embarrassment by Kimi. I agree that the car has protected Rosberg on a couple of occasions but Nico's performance overall has been steady and consistent. The reality is that there was a larger gap between Ferrari and Williams than there was between Mercedes and Ferrari for much of the season yet Kimi made things exciting between himself and Bottas for 4th place.

To be clear; this has nothing to do with Sebastian Vettel. It's just about Kimi and the fact that he clearly does not belong in a top seat anymore. Even if they felt that this offseason would provide better options, Ferrari should have given the seat to another driver. There are plenty of drivers in the paddock who would happily sign a 1 year deal with Ferrari. Their complacency with Kimi sends a bad message IMO.

I haven't got the energy to look for it now but I did an analysis last year which showed that had Nico had the same gap to Vettel in the Ferrari that he did to Lewis he would on more than one occasion have qualified lower than Kimi did. The gap from Mercedes to anyone else in qualifying was much bigger than the gap Ferrari had over anyone. On at least two occasions Nico qualified within a tenth of his 2014 time, despite the car being significantly better and Lewis improving by close to a second on the previous year. He certainly improved in the second half of the year but in the first half he was a complete mess.

I don't think they're being complacent in keeping Kimi. I'm not sure what better options they had last year. Ric was under contract, Verstappen too inexperienced and untested. Hulk hasn't really set the world alight recently and Perez is arguably more variable than Kimi is. Bottas was touted by many but tbh he doesn't do a lot for me. I don't see that they were overflowing with obvious choices.

Kimi can still give decent performances and he's worked well with Allison at Lotus before. Now the car is less of a compromise this year they might feel they can design something which is more up his street. Not saying it's not a gamble but there again many of the other options are equally a gamble. If they want a top driver, not just a safe pair of hands, I think they are doing the best thing in keeping their options open. I do think though that if he continues to be variable then they shouldn't get sentimental. This is most likely his last year unless he puts in an absolutely amazing performance

IDrinkYourMilkshake wrote:

ElevenTenths wrote: I personally believe he did underperform in 2014, but Ferrari should at least test him. For or we know, and I'm being the Devil's Advocate here, is that Vettel is 0.4 seconds a lap slower than Hamilton, which would mean the vast gap to Mercedes is mostly driver-related.

Yes, the pertinent question is "how much of the gap is driver-related". A case in point was Singapore 2015. If there is a better (more efficient) lap around Singapore than Vettel's 2015 lap, I would be very curious. Mercedes had their problems, but look who was nipping at Vettel's heels - Not Kimi, but instead a much slower Ricciardo in an inferior car! Hard to imagine Ricciardo producing a better lap than Vettel but it shows what a waste Ferrari is making of the 2nd car.

Top Qualifiers Singapore 2015:
1 Sebastian Vettel 1:43.885
2 Daniel Ricciardo 1:44.428
3 Kimi Räikkönen 1:44.667

ElevenTenths wrote:

IDrinkYourMilkshake wrote:

ElevenTenths wrote: I personally believe he did underperform in 2014, but Ferrari should at least test him. For or we know, and I'm being the Devil's Advocate here, is that Vettel is 0.4 seconds a lap slower than Hamilton, which would mean the vast gap to Mercedes is mostly driver-related.

Yes, the pertinent question is "how much of the gap is driver-related". A case in point was Singapore 2015. If there is a better (more efficient) lap around Singapore than Vettel's 2015 lap, I would be very curious. Mercedes had their problems, but look who was nipping at Vettel's heels - Not Kimi, but instead a much slower Ricciardo in an inferior car! Hard to imagine Ricciardo producing a better lap than Vettel but it shows what a waste Ferrari is making of the 2nd car.

Top Qualifiers Singapore 2015:
1 Sebastian Vettel 1:43.885
2 Daniel Ricciardo 1:44.428
3 Kimi Räikkönen 1:44.667

And Kvyat was only a tenth behind Kimi. That circuit suited the Red Bulls more to be fair.

Kimi's definitely been an average qualifier lately but a waste is probably a bit harsh.

Zoue wrote:this seems an extension of the silly season 2016 thread and I'll make the same comment: already? Sheesh

It's not as though Kimi is completely rubbish after all, although I agree he's looking past his prime

Point taken about the contract situation, but exactly what use is Kimi on the evidence of Singapore 2015? I guess my question is, how does he advance the Ferrari cause? If he cannot, then you have to wonder what his contribution is.

ElevenTenths wrote:

Zoue wrote:this seems an extension of the silly season 2016 thread and I'll make the same comment: already? Sheesh

It's not as though Kimi is completely rubbish after all, although I agree he's looking past his prime

Point taken about the contract situation, but exactly what use is Kimi on the evidence of Singapore 2015?

Why is Singapore the barometer? Why not Bahrain, where Vettel split the Mercs and Rosberg was six tenths behind (Kimi was "only" three tenths behind his own team mate)? Or Monza, where both Kimi and Vettel split the Mercs and Rosberg trailed?

Point is you can't take just one race and say that should be used as evidence for the whole season. I do think Kimi made too many mistakes in 2015 and should have done better, but to me there's a big difference between "could do better" and "a waste." I agree that Ferrari have a right to expect more but I just think some of the hyperbole is little harsh

Oh no not again. There is no need for another thread.

IDrinkYourMilkshake wrote:

ElevenTenths wrote:In my opinion, it's very difficult to take Ferrari seriously in their bid to catch Mercedes if they cannot put a driver in the second Ferrari that is capable of challenging, pushing Vettel and keeping him honest. Vettel's brilliance notwithstanding, the caveat from the RB years was that Vettel either had a dominant car (2011,2013) or perhaps too compliant a teammate. Ferrari made a good assumption that Vettel, being the most successful driver should lead their campaign. However on the basis of 2014 Vettel most certainly was not the "fastest" driver nor even the "best of the rest", if you consider how Ricciardo sometimes made him look pedestrian. Surely Ferrari need to put a hungry driver such as a Ricciardo or Verstappen in the second car to establish what their leading edge driver performance really is?

Even though Vettel is my favourite driver, I absolutely agree. There's no objective proof that Vettel is better than Alonso was, or is even better than Ricciardo, but we CAN show proof that Alonso was better due to the HUGE margin he had to Raikkonen, and Ricciardo easily beat Vettel. Who's to say Vettel wasn't at his best?
I personally believe he did underperform in 2014, but Ferrari should at least test him. For or we know, and I'm being the Devil's Advocate here, is that Vettel is 0.4 seconds a lap slower than Hamilton, which would mean the vast gap to Mercedes is mostly driver-related.

And FFS, Ferrari should stop acting like they need a Lead Driver who is also their meditation coach/manager/unifier/saint. Get a fast driver, and hire an effing Manager/Motivation coach/Guru for the motivation and leadership that it always seem to need. Ferrari is my favourite, but them always insisting that the Driver has to be like a benevolent king is so much BS. A driver is one employee out of 700. He needs to be able to drive fast, set up the car well, work with the engineers. He's not a motivational speaker!

This all seems a bit pointless. Vettel and Ricciardo could both be faster than Hamilton for all we know.

IDrinkYourMilkshake wrote:

ElevenTenths wrote:In my opinion, it's very difficult to take Ferrari seriously in their bid to catch Mercedes if they cannot put a driver in the second Ferrari that is capable of challenging, pushing Vettel and keeping him honest. Vettel's brilliance notwithstanding, the caveat from the RB years was that Vettel either had a dominant car (2011,2013) or perhaps too compliant a teammate. Ferrari made a good assumption that Vettel, being the most successful driver should lead their campaign. However on the basis of 2014 Vettel most certainly was not the "fastest" driver nor even the "best of the rest", if you consider how Ricciardo sometimes made him look pedestrian. Surely Ferrari need to put a hungry driver such as a Ricciardo or Verstappen in the second car to establish what their leading edge driver performance really is?

Even though Vettel is my favourite driver, I absolutely agree. There's no objective proof that Vettel is better than Alonso was, or is even better than Ricciardo, but we CAN show proof that Alonso was better due to the HUGE margin he had to Raikkonen, and Ricciardo easily beat Vettel. Who's to say Vettel wasn't at his best?
I personally believe he did underperform in 2014, but Ferrari should at least test him. For or we know, and I'm being the Devil's Advocate here, is that Vettel is 0.4 seconds a lap slower than Hamilton, which would mean the vast gap to Mercedes is mostly driver-related.

And FFS, Ferrari should stop acting like they need a Lead Driver who is also their meditation coach/manager/unifier/saint. Get a fast driver, and hire an effing Manager/Motivation coach/Guru for the motivation and leadership that it always seem to need. Ferrari is my favourite, but them always insisting that the Driver has to be like a benevolent king is so much BS. A driver is one employee out of 700. He needs to be able to drive fast, set up the car well, work with the engineers. He's not a motivational speaker!

Edit note: I had misread/misunderstood ElevenTenths' quote within.

I still agree with the general concept that Vettel needs some stiffer competition at Ferrari, but not with the "but we CAN show proof that Alonso was better(than Vettel) due to the HUGE margin he had to Raikkonen" bit.

1st. AFAIK, Vettel beat Kimi in qualies by the same margins(if not greater) as Alonso beat Kimi a year earlier, and probably the only reason why Alonso inflicted a heavier defeat to Kimi was the fact that with the same margins, in 2014 the chances of other cars getting in between Alonso and Kimi were far greater compared to the 2015 season when Ferrari was comfortably 2nd.

2nd. With Kimi always complaining about the drivability of the 2014 Ferrari while repeatedly stating that the 2015 Ferrari was much more to his liking, a heavier Kimi defeat in 2014 from Alonso was to be expected.

3rd. Another thing that might have given an advantage to Alonso was that Kimi jumped into a car geared more towards Alonso`s liking, while Vettel probably jumped into a car geared more toward's Kimi's liking.

There can be many proofs why Alonso could be better than Vettel... using Kimi as a measuring stick simply isnt one of them IMO. If anything, it might lean towards proving quite the opposite.

I think it's fair to say whatever advantage Vettel had during the V8 era was eroded with the new turbo hybrids. There have been many changes to the downforce and car spec since his WDC years and whilst Vettel is still a top driver, sometimes you have to relearn or unlearn what you have learnt to rebuild and find new performance improvements. Whatever he was doing previously wasn't helping him anymore, and in fact when the V8 engines appeared Vettel wasn't immediately at the front either.

I think if Vettel and Riccardo were team mates again at Ferrari either could have the upper hand, Remember Hamilton and Button beat both each other when together. (LH would have outscored JB with more car reliability imo).

ElevenTenths wrote:In my opinion, it's very difficult to take Ferrari seriously in their bid to catch Mercedes if they cannot put a driver in the second Ferrari that is capable of challenging, pushing Vettel and keeping him honest. Vettel's brilliance notwithstanding, the caveat from the RB years was that Vettel either had a dominant car (2011,2013) or perhaps too compliant a teammate. Ferrari made a good assumption that Vettel, being the most successful driver should lead their campaign. However on the basis of 2014 Vettel most certainly was not the "fastest" driver nor even the "best of the rest", if you consider how Ricciardo sometimes made him look pedestrian. Surely Ferrari need to put a hungry driver such as a Ricciardo or Verstappen in the second car to establish what their leading edge driver performance really is?

In other words seeing as there was a race in '14 Ricciardo out qualified him by a second, if Ricciardo was in the Ferrari now he would be on pole as the gap to Hamilton was less than a second!

Delusion does not begin to describe this this thread!

Let's give kimi a couple more races in a car he seemingly likes before writing him off.

However I agree. A competitive driver may end up taking points off vettel but they will be much more useful strategically speaking

Rockie wrote:

ElevenTenths wrote:In my opinion, it's very difficult to take Ferrari seriously in their bid to catch Mercedes if they cannot put a driver in the second Ferrari that is capable of challenging, pushing Vettel and keeping him honest. Vettel's brilliance notwithstanding, the caveat from the RB years was that Vettel either had a dominant car (2011,2013) or perhaps too compliant a teammate. Ferrari made a good assumption that Vettel, being the most successful driver should lead their campaign. However on the basis of 2014 Vettel most certainly was not the "fastest" driver nor even the "best of the rest", if you consider how Ricciardo sometimes made him look pedestrian. Surely Ferrari need to put a hungry driver such as a Ricciardo or Verstappen in the second car to establish what their leading edge driver performance really is?

In other words seeing as there was a race in '14 Ricciardo out qualified him by a second, if Ricciardo was in the Ferrari now he would be on pole as the gap to Hamilton was less than a second!

Delusion does not begin to describe this this thread!

Couldn't agree more, but from the opposite perspective

Rockie wrote:

ElevenTenths wrote:In my opinion, it's very difficult to take Ferrari seriously in their bid to catch Mercedes if they cannot put a driver in the second Ferrari that is capable of challenging, pushing Vettel and keeping him honest. Vettel's brilliance notwithstanding, the caveat from the RB years was that Vettel either had a dominant car (2011,2013) or perhaps too compliant a teammate. Ferrari made a good assumption that Vettel, being the most successful driver should lead their campaign. However on the basis of 2014 Vettel most certainly was not the "fastest" driver nor even the "best of the rest", if you consider how Ricciardo sometimes made him look pedestrian. Surely Ferrari need to put a hungry driver such as a Ricciardo or Verstappen in the second car to establish what their leading edge driver performance really is?

In other words seeing as there was a race in '14 Ricciardo out qualified him by a second, if Ricciardo was in the Ferrari now he would be on pole as the gap to Hamilton was less than a second!

Delusion does not begin to describe this this thread!

Ricciardo proved himself to be faster than Vettel in both quali and race pace. I don't see what's so delusional about suggesting that he may be able to get more out of the Ferrari than Vettel is currently doing.

Migen wrote:

IDrinkYourMilkshake wrote:

ElevenTenths wrote:In my opinion, it's very difficult to take Ferrari seriously in their bid to catch Mercedes if they cannot put a driver in the second Ferrari that is capable of challenging, pushing Vettel and keeping him honest. Vettel's brilliance notwithstanding, the caveat from the RB years was that Vettel either had a dominant car (2011,2013) or perhaps too compliant a teammate. Ferrari made a good assumption that Vettel, being the most successful driver should lead their campaign. However on the basis of 2014 Vettel most certainly was not the "fastest" driver nor even the "best of the rest", if you consider how Ricciardo sometimes made him look pedestrian. Surely Ferrari need to put a hungry driver such as a Ricciardo or Verstappen in the second car to establish what their leading edge driver performance really is?

Even though Vettel is my favourite driver, I absolutely agree. There's no objective proof that Vettel is better than Alonso was, or is even better than Ricciardo, but we CAN show proof that Alonso was better due to the HUGE margin he had to Raikkonen, and Ricciardo easily beat Vettel. Who's to say Vettel wasn't at his best?
I personally believe he did underperform in 2014, but Ferrari should at least test him. For or we know, and I'm being the Devil's Advocate here, is that Vettel is 0.4 seconds a lap slower than Hamilton, which would mean the vast gap to Mercedes is mostly driver-related.

And FFS, Ferrari should stop acting like they need a Lead Driver who is also their meditation coach/manager/unifier/saint. Get a fast driver, and hire an effing Manager/Motivation coach/Guru for the motivation and leadership that it always seem to need. Ferrari is my favourite, but them always insisting that the Driver has to be like a benevolent king is so much BS. A driver is one employee out of 700. He needs to be able to drive fast, set up the car well, work with the engineers. He's not a motivational speaker!

Edit note: I had misread/misunderstood ElevenTenths' quote within.

I still agree with the general concept that Vettel needs some stiffer competition at Ferrari, but not with the "but we CAN show proof that Alonso was better(than Vettel) due to the HUGE margin he had to Raikkonen" bit.

1st. AFAIK, Vettel beat Kimi in qualies by the same margins(if not greater) as Alonso beat Kimi a year earlier, and probably the only reason why Alonso inflicted a heavier defeat to Kimi was the fact that with the same margins, in 2014 the chances of other cars getting in between Alonso and Kimi were far greater compared to the 2015 season when Ferrari was comfortably 2nd.

2nd. With Kimi always complaining about the drivability of the 2014 Ferrari while repeatedly stating that the 2015 Ferrari was much more to his liking, a heavier Kimi defeat in 2014 from Alonso was to be expected.

3rd. Another thing that might have given an advantage to Alonso was that Kimi jumped into a car geared more towards Alonso`s liking, while Vettel probably jumped into a car geared more toward's Kimi's liking.

There can be many proofs why Alonso could be better than Vettel... using Kimi as a measuring stick simply isnt one of them IMO. If anything, it might lean towards proving quite the opposite.

Neither Alonso or Kimi liked the car in 2014. By the same token, both Vettel and Kimi liked the car in 2015.

davidheath461 wrote:

Rockie wrote:

ElevenTenths wrote:In my opinion, it's very difficult to take Ferrari seriously in their bid to catch Mercedes if they cannot put a driver in the second Ferrari that is capable of challenging, pushing Vettel and keeping him honest. Vettel's brilliance notwithstanding, the caveat from the RB years was that Vettel either had a dominant car (2011,2013) or perhaps too compliant a teammate. Ferrari made a good assumption that Vettel, being the most successful driver should lead their campaign. However on the basis of 2014 Vettel most certainly was not the "fastest" driver nor even the "best of the rest", if you consider how Ricciardo sometimes made him look pedestrian. Surely Ferrari need to put a hungry driver such as a Ricciardo or Verstappen in the second car to establish what their leading edge driver performance really is?

In other words seeing as there was a race in '14 Ricciardo out qualified him by a second, if Ricciardo was in the Ferrari now he would be on pole as the gap to Hamilton was less than a second!

Delusion does not begin to describe this this thread!

Ricciardo proved himself to be faster than Vettel in both quali and race pace. I don't see what's so delusional about suggesting that he may be able to get more out of the Ferrari than Vettel is currently doing.

And no one has said otherwise, are you trying to say currently Vettel is still driving the way he was in '14? If so let me let you bask in your myopic view of how driver performance works!

How Do We Know The True Mercedes Leading Edge Performance?
How Do We Know The True McLaren Leading Edge Performance?
...
How Do We Know The True Manor Leading Edge Performance?

What Is True Leading Edge Performace?

Covalent wrote:What Is True Leading Edge Performace?

According to this thread it means another driver can go faster than a driver I don't like in the same car!

Rockie wrote:

Covalent wrote:What Is True Leading Edge Performace?

According to this thread it means another driver can go faster than a driver I don't like in the same car!

Yup.... this.

Rockie wrote:

davidheath461 wrote:

Rockie wrote:

ElevenTenths wrote:In my opinion, it's very difficult to take Ferrari seriously in their bid to catch Mercedes if they cannot put a driver in the second Ferrari that is capable of challenging, pushing Vettel and keeping him honest. Vettel's brilliance notwithstanding, the caveat from the RB years was that Vettel either had a dominant car (2011,2013) or perhaps too compliant a teammate. Ferrari made a good assumption that Vettel, being the most successful driver should lead their campaign. However on the basis of 2014 Vettel most certainly was not the "fastest" driver nor even the "best of the rest", if you consider how Ricciardo sometimes made him look pedestrian. Surely Ferrari need to put a hungry driver such as a Ricciardo or Verstappen in the second car to establish what their leading edge driver performance really is?

In other words seeing as there was a race in '14 Ricciardo out qualified him by a second, if Ricciardo was in the Ferrari now he would be on pole as the gap to Hamilton was less than a second!

Delusion does not begin to describe this this thread!

Ricciardo proved himself to be faster than Vettel in both quali and race pace. I don't see what's so delusional about suggesting that he may be able to get more out of the Ferrari than Vettel is currently doing.

And no one has said otherwise, are you trying to say currently Vettel is still driving the way he was in '14? If so let me let you bask in your myopic view of how driver performance works!

It's all relative. Vettel got thrashed by Ricciardo so people assume the he had a bad year. He then thrashes Kimi, so the same people assume he had an awesome year.

Either way, there's no way way you can excuse the kind of beating he received in '14.

Do you ever get off that theme, heath? We get it... You are not a Vettel fan, that is your right... I can't help but wonder how you will react if he were to win another WDC or two.


Yes, he got beat by Ricciardo that year, few if any argue that. However, There are many reasons that a driver can have a bad year, and many of the greatest have had an off-year. However, he seems to like the Ferraris the last couple of years and has driven well.

For all you know, Ricciardo might have beat Hamilton or Alonso in that particular RB. For all you know, Seb might trounce Ricciardo in the Ferrari if they were paired up. To totally dis a driver's career, to dismiss his skills based on one year, is a rather ignorant move.

davidheath461 wrote:
It's all relative. Vettel got thrashed by Ricciardo so people assume the he had a bad year. He then thrashes Kimi, so the same people assume he had an awesome year.

Either way, there's no way way you can excuse the kind of beating he received in '14.

So lets get this straight Vettel was thrashed by Ricciardo we all agree, no one is excusing it! Vettel then goes on to thrash Kimi in the same way Alonso thrashed him! Now using your flawed logic Ricciardo will thrash Alonso as hard as he did Vettel.

Rockie wrote:

davidheath461 wrote:
It's all relative. Vettel got thrashed by Ricciardo so people assume the he had a bad year. He then thrashes Kimi, so the same people assume he had an awesome year.

Either way, there's no way way you can excuse the kind of beating he received in '14.

So lets get this straight Vettel was thrashed by Ricciardo we all agree, no one is excusing it! Vettel then goes on to thrash Kimi in the same way Alonso thrashed him! Now using your flawed logic Ricciardo will thrash Alonso as hard as he did Vettel.

eh?

How is that "my flawed logic" ?

Blake wrote:Do you ever get off that theme, heath? We get it... You are not a Vettel fan, that is your right... I can't help but wonder how you will react if he were to win another WDC or two.


Yes, he got beat by Ricciardo that year, few if any argue that. However, There are many reasons that a driver can have a bad year, and many of the greatest have had an off-year. However, he seems to like the Ferraris the last couple of years and has driven well.

For all you know, Ricciardo might have beat Hamilton or Alonso in that particular RB. For all you know, Seb might trounce Ricciardo in the Ferrari if they were paired up. To totally dis a driver's career, to dismiss his skills based on one year, is a rather ignorant move.

By the same token - to ignore that year and simply write it off as a "bad year" is ignorant.

When did the likes of Schumacher or Senna ever take a beating like that at their peak?

He's the only WDC not to win a race, when his teammate has won a race! It's not that he just got beaten, it's that he got thrashed in every possible way!

ElevenTenths wrote:In my opinion, it's very difficult to take Ferrari seriously in their bid to catch Mercedes if they cannot put a driver in the second Ferrari that is capable of challenging, pushing Vettel and keeping him honest. Vettel's brilliance notwithstanding, the caveat from the RB years was that Vettel either had a dominant car (2011,2013) or perhaps too compliant a teammate. Ferrari made a good assumption that Vettel, being the most successful driver should lead their campaign. However on the basis
of 2014 Vettel most certainly was not the "fastest" driver nor even the "best of the rest", if you consider how Ricciardo sometimes made him look pedestrian. Surely Ferrari need to put a hungry driver such as a Ricciardo or Verstappen in the second car to establish what their leading edge driver performance really is?

What a strange view. Vettel could have had a bad season like Hamilton once had, or the drastic change of
the 2014 cars aerodynamics was not his cup of tea. To assume Vettel is not a top driver based on that
one season is simply poor judgment.
Vettel continues pretty much where Alonso left off with Kimi even though Kimi felt allot more comfortable
in the 2015 car than in the 2014 one.
The most logic assumption from the 2015 season is that Vettel is at least on par with Alonso!
Why would he need a teammate that pushes him, he is a self motivator and is driven by the hunt for the
title.

.

davidheath461 wrote: He's the only WDC not to win a race, when his teammate has won a race!

Yeah I can probably find more statistics like that that apply to other WDC's that didn't defeat their teammates in a WDC follow-up year.

Stop the hate man, it's getting thoroughly ridiculous.

davidheath461 wrote:

Blake wrote:Do you ever get off that theme, heath? We get it... You are not a Vettel fan, that is your right... I can't help but wonder how you will react if he were to win another WDC or two.


Yes, he got beat by Ricciardo that year, few if any argue that. However, There are many reasons that a driver can have a bad year, and many of the greatest have had an off-year. However, he seems to like the Ferraris the last couple of years and has driven well.

For all you know, Ricciardo might have beat Hamilton or Alonso in that particular RB. For all you know, Seb might trounce Ricciardo in the Ferrari if they were paired up. To totally dis a driver's career, to dismiss his skills based on one year, is a rather ignorant move.

By the same token - to ignore that year and simply write it off as a "bad year" is ignorant.

When did the likes of Schumacher or Senna ever take a beating like that at their peak?

He's the only WDC not to win a race, when his teammate has won a race! It's not that he just got beaten, it's that he got thrashed in every possible way!

Well winning 4 straight titles from the very first, he remains the only one to have done it, and sits in the exclusive club of just 3 other drivers with membership of the 4X WDC exclusive club.

When his career comes to an end, peoplse recollection of '14 will be a year which he didn't perform to his best, as other than '14 in his career so far people like you waited for a year like that, and now you have it, let others enjoy watching him without putting him down!

mds wrote:

davidheath461 wrote: He's the only WDC not to win a race, when his teammate has won a race!

Yeah I can probably find more statistics like that that apply to other WDC's that didn't defeat their teammates in a WDC follow-up year.

Stop the hate man, it's getting thoroughly ridiculous.

I don't see the hate here. He's just showing a valid, real statistic. I'm a Vettel fan, and I've stated that statistic more than anyone on this forum. You CAN point out the good and bad of your favourite drivers, you know. Grow up a bit.

IDrinkYourMilkshake wrote:

mds wrote:

davidheath461 wrote: He's the only WDC not to win a race, when his teammate has won a race!

Yeah I can probably find more statistics like that that apply to other WDC's that didn't defeat their teammates in a WDC follow-up year.

Stop the hate man, it's getting thoroughly ridiculous.

I don't see the hate here. He's just showing a valid, real statistic. I'm a Vettel fan, and I've stated that statistic more than anyone on this forum. You CAN point out the good and bad of your favourite drivers, you know. Grow up a bit.

I don't think mds is basing that comment on one post alone, look at david's post history and you will see quite a clear pattern..