Just who is the best F1 driver on the grid?

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aice
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Re: Just who is the best F1 driver on the grid?

Post by aice »

mds wrote:
aice wrote: The team bosses seem to think Hamilton is the best and I wouldn’t disagree with them.
Team bosses poll is about the past year. Vettel and Alonso traded #1 and #2 spots from 2010 to 2013.
The team bosses not only rated Hamilton's performance of 2014 & 2015 as the best, but in a completely separate vote, they rated Hamilton as best driver, per se, in F1. http://www.thisisf1.com/2015/06/01/team ... ver-in-f1/
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mds
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Re: Just who is the best F1 driver on the grid?

Post by mds »

aice wrote:
mds wrote:
aice wrote: The team bosses seem to think Hamilton is the best and I wouldn’t disagree with them.
Team bosses poll is about the past year. Vettel and Alonso traded #1 and #2 spots from 2010 to 2013.
The team bosses not only rated Hamilton's performance of 2014 & 2015 as the best, but in a completely separate vote, they rated Hamilton as best driver, per se, in F1. http://www.thisisf1.com/2015/06/01/team ... ver-in-f1/
Do you believe it would be the same result if there was a poll asking who had been the best driver over the past 10 years? If yes, then what is the value of the above poll asking for "today". Today is today, tomorrow can change. A driver can be properly measured after his career is (mostly) finished.

So it boils down to what "being the best driver on the grid" means. Is it "which driver has been the best throughout his career"? "Which driver has the greatest talent"? "Which driver is at a performance peak"?
Go Vandoorne :( - Verstappen - Vettel!

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Re: Just who is the best F1 driver on the grid?

Post by Zoue »

aice wrote:
mds wrote:
aice wrote: The team bosses seem to think Hamilton is the best and I wouldn’t disagree with them.
Team bosses poll is about the past year. Vettel and Alonso traded #1 and #2 spots from 2010 to 2013.
The team bosses not only rated Hamilton's performance of 2014 & 2015 as the best, but in a completely separate vote, they rated Hamilton as best driver, per se, in F1. http://www.thisisf1.com/2015/06/01/team ... ver-in-f1/
The team bosses often seem swayed by equipment when making their decisions. It explains why Alonso is relatively low in the poll. Did he suddenly become a lot worse overnight?

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Exediron
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Re: Just who is the best F1 driver on the grid?

Post by Exediron »

Fountoukos13 wrote:Vettel. Being the best means achieving the most.
No, it doesn't. It's never meant that. Achieving the most is what all of the drivers want to do, certainly, but that line is used almost exclusively in lieu of a real argument when defending a competitor with more wins/titles/success than another who is generally suspected of being better.

Applying your logic:

Stirling Moss isn't even one of the 32 best drivers in F1 history.
Neither was Gilles Villeneuve.
Prost was categorically better than Senna.
If Red Bull hadn't become a front-running team from 2009 on, Vettel wouldn't be the best driver or even in the conversation.

Do you agree with all those statements?
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Re: Just who is the best F1 driver on the grid?

Post by Rockie »

Exediron wrote:
Fountoukos13 wrote:Vettel. Being the best means achieving the most.
No, it doesn't. It's never meant that. Achieving the most is what all of the drivers want to do, certainly, but that line is used almost exclusively in lieu of a real argument when defending a competitor with more wins/titles/success than another who is generally suspected of being better.

Applying your logic:

Stirling Moss isn't even one of the 32 best drivers in F1 history.
Neither was Gilles Villeneuve.
Prost was categorically better than Senna.
If Red Bull hadn't become a front-running team from 2009 on, Vettel wouldn't be the best driver or even in the conversation.

Do you agree with all those statements?
Well it might shock you but that's how you know the best.

Stats do not rely on emotion or personal preference.

Zoue
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Re: Just who is the best F1 driver on the grid?

Post by Zoue »

Rockie wrote:
Exediron wrote:
Fountoukos13 wrote:Vettel. Being the best means achieving the most.
No, it doesn't. It's never meant that. Achieving the most is what all of the drivers want to do, certainly, but that line is used almost exclusively in lieu of a real argument when defending a competitor with more wins/titles/success than another who is generally suspected of being better.

Applying your logic:

Stirling Moss isn't even one of the 32 best drivers in F1 history.
Neither was Gilles Villeneuve.
Prost was categorically better than Senna.
If Red Bull hadn't become a front-running team from 2009 on, Vettel wouldn't be the best driver or even in the conversation.

Do you agree with all those statements?
Well it might shock you but that's how you know the best.

Stats do not rely on emotion or personal preference.
Stats don't it's true, but determining who is the best in F1 is anything but objective. The OP asked:

Who do you think is the best driver on the grid? Perhaps you could give a top 5 with accompanying reasons?

What might give Vettel the edge over Alonso?

What might give Ricciardo the edge over Rosberg?

Name who you think are the best racers out there.


If all we have to do is list number of wins or titles then it wouldn't be much of a discussion. Asking who the best racer is makes it fairly clear IMO that it's trying to separate man and machine, for starters. And then subjectivity plays a very big part.

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mds
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Re: Just who is the best F1 driver on the grid?

Post by mds »

I'll try to give a reasoned answer...

First of all, I think it's impossible to include drivers that have been in F1 for five years or less. Being "the best" is something for which we need a great amount of insight and in just a few years that can't be collected. In my opinion. We can discern promise or talent - like Ricciardo or Verstappen - but I just need more data.

Of those that have been in F1 for a reasonable while, Alonso is obviously a top performer and on average, probably the best. Hamilton and Vettel are right there too, but they are quite a few years younger than Alonso. While Alonso has been at his peak for years now, and can enjoy the benefit that brings to his perception, Hamilton and Vettel might just now have arrived at their peaks and could go on to stay there for years and perform as we've come to expect from Alonso.

All in all these three could be very close together, once we put their careers together and compare their evolution and career span. But you see even here I would say we need more data from Hamilton and Vettel to see how the rest of their careers go.

For me, and for now, it's between these three. But others could add themselves to this shortlist over the years - Verstappen and Ricciardo being the probable ones to do this.
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Re: Just who is the best F1 driver on the grid?

Post by Rockie »

Zoue wrote: Stats don't it's true, but determining who is the best in F1 is anything but objective. The OP asked:

Who do you think is the best driver on the grid? Perhaps you could give a top 5 with accompanying reasons?

What might give Vettel the edge over Alonso?

What might give Ricciardo the edge over Rosberg?

Name who you think are the best racers out there.


If all we have to do is list number of wins or titles then it wouldn't be much of a discussion. Asking who the best racer is makes it fairly clear IMO that it's trying to separate man and machine, for starters. And then subjectivity plays a very big part.
For me there are two guy out there I rate. In no order,

Vettel and Hamilton.



For Vettel a lot of fans point to '14 or Webber as not being a yardstick so he looked good!

But to counter that for all drivers I negate the team mate and look at the actual individual to analyse his performance, and when you do, you sit back in awe of what is being achieved.

Hamilton a weird driver who is flawed in more way than I can imagine right now but also delivers.

People point to '11 for him as well. And he basically has the same argument as Vettel above.

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Centauri
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Re: Just who is the best F1 driver on the grid?

Post by Centauri »

From my own observations;


1. Hamilton / Alonso / Ricciardo
Capable of beating the best drivers on the grid. Aside from a few hitches, they are invariably formidably quick all over a weekend. All have extremely good - if not perfect - records vs team mates. Ricciardo is more on an unknown quantity, but after seeing him beat Vettel comprehensively I'm going to take a punt and put him up here with the two (relative) old timers.

2. Vettel / Rosberg
Both very, very good drivers and capable race-winners. Vettel has benefitted throughout his career with older and inferior teammates and while I can't deny he's very good, Ricciardo proved he's a touch away from the top tier. Again, Rosberg could well have been a double world champion by now, had he not been paired with Hamilton. Just the way things go.

3. Button / Hulkenberg / Bottas / Perez
Button has been at this sort of level his whole career, if you ask me. Consistently quick and reliable. Like a supercharged journeyman driver. Hulkenberg, Bottas and Perez routinely show great speed during race weekends.

Pullrod
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Re: Just who is the best F1 driver on the grid?

Post by Pullrod »

So if we pair tomorrow:

ALONSO & HAMILTON at McLaren
or
ALONSO & VETTEL at Ferrari

ALONSO will beat both of them??

Good luck with that guys..


Sometimes I wonder if we watch the same races or seasons.

Who won most of the wet races?
Who won most of the races overtaking the race leader(on track)?
Which drivers share the most #1 & #2 in qualifying since 2007?

Of course it is the car.. lets look at the team mates performances to declare who is the bestest.. such a clever marketing trick..
_


I would have no interest(as a Team Boss) to have a driver who can beat ROSBERG/BUTTON/RAIKKONEN by 270 points... I would want a driver who can win the WDC and to do it you have to be a Pole machine no matter the car you drive. And against HAMILTON and VETTEL(in fast and reliable cars), it is a tall order to ask to anyone.
Last edited by Pullrod on Fri Mar 18, 2016 10:46 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Just who is the best F1 driver on the grid?

Post by Pullrod »

To answer the thread question:

1. HAMILTON
2. VETTEL
3. ALONSO/BUTTON/ROSBERG

Of the new guys the driver I like the most so far is SAINZ(he has the speed, which is the most important thing). Hopefully he will repeat last year Qualifying performances.
.

I would like to add that it is unfortunate for ROSBERG to be HAMILTON's teammate as I have no doubt he has all it takes to be a WDC(Qualifying freak and very handy in the wet).
People seems to forget he is a GP2 WDC winner and has always been in the TOP 6/8 even when he was driving very poor cars.
Last edited by Pullrod on Fri Mar 18, 2016 11:01 am, edited 2 times in total.

aice
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Re: Just who is the best F1 driver on the grid?

Post by aice »

mds wrote:
aice wrote:
mds wrote:
aice wrote: The team bosses seem to think Hamilton is the best and I wouldn’t disagree with them.
Team bosses poll is about the past year. Vettel and Alonso traded #1 and #2 spots from 2010 to 2013.
The team bosses not only rated Hamilton's performance of 2014 & 2015 as the best, but in a completely separate vote, they rated Hamilton as best driver, per se, in F1. http://www.thisisf1.com/2015/06/01/team ... ver-in-f1/
Do you believe it would be the same result if there was a poll asking who had been the best driver over the past 10 years? If yes, then what is the value of the above poll asking for "today". Today is today, tomorrow can change. A driver can be properly measured after his career is (mostly) finished.

So it boils down to what "being the best driver on the grid" means. Is it "which driver has been the best throughout his career"? "Which driver has the greatest talent"? "Which driver is at a performance peak"?
The best over 10yrs/the course of their careers in not what we are debating here..That’s an entirely separate conversation.. I interpreted the OP to be seeking opinions on the current best on the grid. The top 3 are all pretty close IMO. All fantastic drivers with not much separating them.. The team principals rated Hamilton as the top, and i am simply saying, that I agree with their assessment on this.
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aice
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Re: Just who is the best F1 driver on the grid?

Post by aice »

Zoue wrote:
aice wrote:
mds wrote:
aice wrote: The team bosses seem to think Hamilton is the best and I wouldn’t disagree with them.
Team bosses poll is about the past year. Vettel and Alonso traded #1 and #2 spots from 2010 to 2013.
The team bosses not only rated Hamilton's performance of 2014 & 2015 as the best, but in a completely separate vote, they rated Hamilton as best driver, per se, in F1. http://www.thisisf1.com/2015/06/01/team ... ver-in-f1/
The team bosses often seem swayed by equipment when making their decisions. It explains why Alonso is relatively low in the poll. Did he suddenly become a lot worse overnight?
I really don’t think third is a "relatively low" ranking for Alonso. I am pretty confident that if you ask most F1 fans/enthusiasts who they consider to be the overall current 3 best, i’m almost sure they will say, in no particular order, Hamilton, Alonso & Vettel. I really can't see how the team bosses ranking Alonso in third place behind Hamilton and then Vettel is inconsistent or at odds with this general view..
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AnRs
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Re: Just who is the best F1 driver on the grid?

Post by AnRs »

I would rate Alonso/Vettel a step ahead of Hamilton just because they've proved they can win in different engine/car combinations, Hamilton has never driven anything else than Mercedes.

Hard to judge 2013, 2014 and 2105 when no one but the team dominating has a chance at all.

Ricciardo a dark horse.

A step behind Nico, Button.

Zoue
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Re: Just who is the best F1 driver on the grid?

Post by Zoue »

aice wrote:
Zoue wrote:
aice wrote:
mds wrote:
aice wrote: The team bosses seem to think Hamilton is the best and I wouldn’t disagree with them.
Team bosses poll is about the past year. Vettel and Alonso traded #1 and #2 spots from 2010 to 2013.
The team bosses not only rated Hamilton's performance of 2014 & 2015 as the best, but in a completely separate vote, they rated Hamilton as best driver, per se, in F1. http://www.thisisf1.com/2015/06/01/team ... ver-in-f1/
The team bosses often seem swayed by equipment when making their decisions. It explains why Alonso is relatively low in the poll. Did he suddenly become a lot worse overnight?
I really don’t think third is a "relatively low" ranking for Alonso. I am pretty confident that if you ask most F1 fans/enthusiasts who they consider to be the overall current 3 best, i’m almost sure they will say, in no particular order, Hamilton, Alonso & Vettel. I really can't see how the team bosses ranking Alonso in third place behind Hamilton and then Vettel is inconsistent or at odds with this general view..
Depends how you read it. Lewis got 35 points, while Alonso got 12. I'd say that's relatively low in comparison.

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Re: Just who is the best F1 driver on the grid?

Post by aice »

AnRs wrote:I would rate Alonso/Vettel a step ahead of Hamilton just because they've proved they can win in different engine/car combinations, Hamilton has never driven anything else than Mercedes.

.
If you are going to use this criteria, one could easily turn this on it's head and go down a similar route & say perhaps Hamilton is a step ahead of Alonso/Vettel because so far, Hamilton has proved that he can win a WDC in a different team-set up. Alonso/Vettel have only ever won in one team?
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stevey
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Post by stevey »

For me in this current formula where qualifying is so important

1, Hamilton
2, Vettel
3, Rosberg
4, Riccardo
5, Alonso

Back in the 2006-2008 era which I loved but with todays drivers at their current abilities

1, Hamilton
2, Vettel
3, Alonso
4, Riccardo
not sure on number 5, too many drivers capable of this slot.

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mds
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Re: Just who is the best F1 driver on the grid?

Post by mds »

aice wrote:
mds wrote:
aice wrote:
mds wrote:
aice wrote: The team bosses seem to think Hamilton is the best and I wouldn’t disagree with them.
Team bosses poll is about the past year. Vettel and Alonso traded #1 and #2 spots from 2010 to 2013.
The team bosses not only rated Hamilton's performance of 2014 & 2015 as the best, but in a completely separate vote, they rated Hamilton as best driver, per se, in F1. http://www.thisisf1.com/2015/06/01/team ... ver-in-f1/
Do you believe it would be the same result if there was a poll asking who had been the best driver over the past 10 years? If yes, then what is the value of the above poll asking for "today". Today is today, tomorrow can change. A driver can be properly measured after his career is (mostly) finished.

So it boils down to what "being the best driver on the grid" means. Is it "which driver has been the best throughout his career"? "Which driver has the greatest talent"? "Which driver is at a performance peak"?
The best over 10yrs/the course of their careers in not what we are debating here..That’s an entirely separate conversation.. I interpreted the OP to be seeking opinions on the current best on the grid. The top 3 are all pretty close IMO. All fantastic drivers with not much separating them.. The team principals rated Hamilton as the top, and i am simply saying, that I agree with their assessment on this.
Fair enough, but then what is the big difference with the yearly poll on the performances of the drivers? As you now also clearly indicate that this is something that can fluctuate year by year.
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Re: Just who is the best F1 driver on the grid?

Post by Herb »

It amazes me how Ricciardo gets so much credit.

Yes, I do think he is good, but some talk about him like he is an all-time great. He maximised his opportunities in 2014, but I think we need to see a bit more of him at the sharp end before ranking him up anywhere near Alonso, Vettel and Hamilton.

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Re: Just who is the best F1 driver on the grid?

Post by mcdo »

Fernando Alonso

But it will be Lewis Hamilton very soon. He is one of the greatest drivers of all time
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Zoue
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Re: Just who is the best F1 driver on the grid?

Post by Zoue »

Herb wrote:It amazes me how Ricciardo gets so much credit.

Yes, I do think he is good, but some talk about him like he is an all-time great. He maximised his opportunities in 2014, but I think we need to see a bit more of him at the sharp end before ranking him up anywhere near Alonso, Vettel and Hamilton.
Well to be fair it's quite some achievement to comprehensively beat a four times WDC at the first attempt. That alone would make him worth a look. I agree he's a bit of a wild card but he does look fairly strong overall

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Re: Just who is the best F1 driver on the grid?

Post by davidheath461 »

Herb wrote:It amazes me how Ricciardo gets so much credit.

Yes, I do think he is good, but some talk about him like he is an all-time great. He maximised his opportunities in 2014, but I think we need to see a bit more of him at the sharp end before ranking him up anywhere near Alonso, Vettel and Hamilton.
Erm...he already wiped the floor with Vettel.

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Re: Just who is the best F1 driver on the grid?

Post by davidheath461 »

Rockie wrote:
Exediron wrote:
Fountoukos13 wrote:Vettel. Being the best means achieving the most.
No, it doesn't. It's never meant that. Achieving the most is what all of the drivers want to do, certainly, but that line is used almost exclusively in lieu of a real argument when defending a competitor with more wins/titles/success than another who is generally suspected of being better.

Applying your logic:

Stirling Moss isn't even one of the 32 best drivers in F1 history.
Neither was Gilles Villeneuve.
Prost was categorically better than Senna.
If Red Bull hadn't become a front-running team from 2009 on, Vettel wouldn't be the best driver or even in the conversation.

Do you agree with all those statements?
Well it might shock you but that's how you know the best.

Stats do not rely on emotion or personal preference.
In a sport like F1, stats can be misleading because they will not isolate driver performance.

And if you cannot see that, then you really don't understand F1.

steoc4
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Re: Just who is the best F1 driver on the grid?

Post by steoc4 »

Zoue wrote:
Herb wrote:It amazes me how Ricciardo gets so much credit.

Yes, I do think he is good, but some talk about him like he is an all-time great. He maximised his opportunities in 2014, but I think we need to see a bit more of him at the sharp end before ranking him up anywhere near Alonso, Vettel and Hamilton.
Well to be fair it's quite some achievement to comprehensively beat a four times WDC at the first attempt. That alone would make him worth a look. I agree he's a bit of a wild card but he does look fairly strong overall

There were a whole load of factors affecting Vettel's performance though - drop in motivation not having a car capable of fighting for championships for the first time in years (while Ricciardo had an opposite rise in motivation), horrendous reliability in testing and the first half of the season relative to Ricciardo, meaning he had far less track time to get accustomed to the new cars and tyres, the knowledge that his future lay with Ferrari and looking forward to that, all of the above combined with the fact that he had his first child make me think it's not unreasonable to suggest Vettel was not as focussed and as performant as he might normally be.

I hope Ferrari hire Ricciardo for next season because it will answer a lot of questions - personally I think Vettel would come out on top by a reasonable margin, but it would be closer than it currently is with Raikkonen.

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Re: Just who is the best F1 driver on the grid?

Post by Invade »

steoc4 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Herb wrote:It amazes me how Ricciardo gets so much credit.

Yes, I do think he is good, but some talk about him like he is an all-time great. He maximised his opportunities in 2014, but I think we need to see a bit more of him at the sharp end before ranking him up anywhere near Alonso, Vettel and Hamilton.
Well to be fair it's quite some achievement to comprehensively beat a four times WDC at the first attempt. That alone would make him worth a look. I agree he's a bit of a wild card but he does look fairly strong overall

There were a whole load of factors affecting Vettel's performance though - drop in motivation not having a car capable of fighting for championships for the first time in years (while Ricciardo had an opposite rise in motivation), horrendous reliability in testing and the first half of the season relative to Ricciardo, meaning he had far less track time to get accustomed to the new cars and tyres, the knowledge that his future lay with Ferrari and looking forward to that, all of the above combined with the fact that he had his first child make me think it's not unreasonable to suggest Vettel was not as focussed and as performant as he might normally be.

I hope Ferrari hire Ricciardo for next season because it will answer a lot of questions - personally I think Vettel would come out on top by a reasonable margin, but it would be closer than it currently is with Raikkonen.
Ricciardo would be immensely hungry himself in such a position, but Vettel will have bedded himself into the Ferrari team very thoroughly. I'd expect Vettel to beat Ricciardo somewhat clearly, yet competitively, in a first season, and that Ricciardo would close the gap and make it very tight in the following season. Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Ricciardo fudge a lot of starts in 2014 and make life more difficult for himself than it had to be, thus making him look even more spectacular? There's a lot less "noise" in Vettel's whole process and he's cleaner. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

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Re: Just who is the best F1 driver on the grid?

Post by Zoue »

steoc4 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Herb wrote:It amazes me how Ricciardo gets so much credit.

Yes, I do think he is good, but some talk about him like he is an all-time great. He maximised his opportunities in 2014, but I think we need to see a bit more of him at the sharp end before ranking him up anywhere near Alonso, Vettel and Hamilton.
Well to be fair it's quite some achievement to comprehensively beat a four times WDC at the first attempt. That alone would make him worth a look. I agree he's a bit of a wild card but he does look fairly strong overall

There were a whole load of factors affecting Vettel's performance though - drop in motivation not having a car capable of fighting for championships for the first time in years (while Ricciardo had an opposite rise in motivation), horrendous reliability in testing and the first half of the season relative to Ricciardo, meaning he had far less track time to get accustomed to the new cars and tyres, the knowledge that his future lay with Ferrari and looking forward to that, all of the above combined with the fact that he had his first child make me think it's not unreasonable to suggest Vettel was not as focussed and as performant as he might normally be.

I hope Ferrari hire Ricciardo for next season because it will answer a lot of questions - personally I think Vettel would come out on top by a reasonable margin, but it would be closer than it currently is with Raikkonen.
I don't disagree that there were probably mitigating circumstances for Vettel's performances, but even taking that into account Ricciardo himself did very well to secure three wins in a lesser car (to the Mercs).

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Re: Just who is the best F1 driver on the grid?

Post by Invade »

Apart from Ricciardo sometimes forcing himself into position to have to be more spectacular as compared to Vettel, I don't think his wheel-to-wheel racecraft can be in doubt, and he's very quick and has tremendous skill and feel for the car. I understand that some await more proof, but he's certainly already in my top 5. I just don't know who I'd put at 5th after Vettel/Hamilton, Alonso, Ricciardo.

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mds
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Re: Just who is the best F1 driver on the grid?

Post by mds »

davidheath461 wrote:
Herb wrote:It amazes me how Ricciardo gets so much credit.

Yes, I do think he is good, but some talk about him like he is an all-time great. He maximised his opportunities in 2014, but I think we need to see a bit more of him at the sharp end before ranking him up anywhere near Alonso, Vettel and Hamilton.
Erm...he already wiped the floor with Vettel.
He did, but how does that relate to what Herb said? Would you say that one year out of a complete driver's career is sufficient to rank him among the best or to exclude him from ranking among the best, regardless of the years before and after?
Go Vandoorne :( - Verstappen - Vettel!

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Re: Just who is the best F1 driver on the grid?

Post by Alex53 »

I can't decide between Alonso and Hamilton. For me, they are one little step over Vettel, and then those 3 are better than the rest.

Top 5
Alonso, Hamilton.
Vettel
Button, Raikkonen

Rosberg would be my 6th. His skills are up there, but I feel he has a tendency to crumble under pressure when the 5 above are much more likely to deliver when the pressure is on.

This is taking their whole careers in mind. On current form Raikkonen for me is well below his own previous standards, and nowadays drivers like Bottas and Ricciardo are his match.

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Re: Just who is the best F1 driver on the grid?

Post by slide »

trouble is Alonso is not having the chance to show it in the machonda and you could argue he is too old or is he just going into that phase where age is starting to "show and slow" - whats he got 2 or 3 years ?, or will reactions slow too much
Last edited by slide on Fri Mar 18, 2016 8:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Rockie
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Re: Just who is the best F1 driver on the grid?

Post by Rockie »

davidheath461 wrote:
Rockie wrote:
Exediron wrote:
Fountoukos13 wrote:Vettel. Being the best means achieving the most.
No, it doesn't. It's never meant that. Achieving the most is what all of the drivers want to do, certainly, but that line is used almost exclusively in lieu of a real argument when defending a competitor with more wins/titles/success than another who is generally suspected of being better.

Applying your logic:

Stirling Moss isn't even one of the 32 best drivers in F1 history.
Neither was Gilles Villeneuve.
Prost was categorically better than Senna.
If Red Bull hadn't become a front-running team from 2009 on, Vettel wouldn't be the best driver or even in the conversation.

Do you agree with all those statements?
Well it might shock you but that's how you know the best.

Stats do not rely on emotion or personal preference.
In a sport like F1, stats can be misleading because they will not isolate driver performance.

And if you cannot see that, then you really don't understand F1.
In a sport like F1 stats are never misleading! It shows what each individual and his team achieved. Fangio didnt win in a dud car neither did Schumi or Senna. Senna didn't win the WDC till he drove the all conquering Mclaren so I wonder what your point is?

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Re: Just who is the best F1 driver on the grid?

Post by Rockie »

davidheath461 wrote:
Herb wrote:It amazes me how Ricciardo gets so much credit.

Yes, I do think he is good, but some talk about him like he is an all-time great. He maximised his opportunities in 2014, but I think we need to see a bit more of him at the sharp end before ranking him up anywhere near Alonso, Vettel and Hamilton.
Erm...he already wiped the floor with Vettel.
Oh yes and after that he has not improved, he has his reputation on the line as of this season should he be beaten by Kyvat again!

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Re: Just who is the best F1 driver on the grid?

Post by Rockie »

Alex53 wrote:I can't decide between Alonso and Hamilton. For me, they are one little step over Vettel, and then those 3 are better than the rest.

Top 5
Alonso, Hamilton.
Vettel
Button, Raikkonen

Rosberg would be my 6th. His skills are up there, but I feel he has a tendency to crumble under pressure when the 5 above are much more likely to deliver when the pressure is on.

This is taking their whole careers in mind. On current form Raikkonen for me is well below his own previous standards, and nowadays drivers like Bottas and Ricciardo are his match.

Exactly what is this step they have over Vettel?

Hamilton has never won in anything outside of a class leading car!

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Re: Just who is the best F1 driver on the grid?

Post by IDrinkYourMilkshake »

Zoue wrote:
Herb wrote:It amazes me how Ricciardo gets so much credit.

Yes, I do think he is good, but some talk about him like he is an all-time great. He maximised his opportunities in 2014, but I think we need to see a bit more of him at the sharp end before ranking him up anywhere near Alonso, Vettel and Hamilton.
Well to be fair it's quite some achievement to comprehensively beat a four times WDC at the first attempt. That alone would make him worth a look. I agree he's a bit of a wild card but he does look fairly strong overall
Well, Vettel is one of my favourites, but Ricciardo deserves a lot of credit. Embarrassingly for Vettel, I think 2014 was the only time in F1 history that if a defending champion didn't win any races, his teammate won multiple races. It's never, ever happened before.

However, since most would agree Vettel isn't that bad, it must mean 2014 was an off-year for him, and hence we cannot rate Ricciardo accurately on speed. However, I think we can safely say, in terms of race craft, Ricciardo did seem better than Vettel, and almost as good as Alonso.
It could be an on-form Vettel would have more raw speed, while Ricciardo has less raw speed but better race-craft. It's hard to rate Ricciardo's speed because Vettel wasn't at his usual form. But his racecraft is undoubtedly one of the best.

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Re: Just who is the best F1 driver on the grid?

Post by IDrinkYourMilkshake »

Fountoukos13 wrote:
Invade wrote:No poll, just discussion.

Who do you think is the best driver on the grid? Perhaps you could give a top 5 with accompanying reasons?

What might give Vettel the edge over Alonso?

What might give Ricciardo the edge over Rosberg?

Name who you think are the best racers out there.
Vettel. Being the best means achieving the most. Arguments like driving the best car and Alonso always driving an inferior car don't count because it's not about who is the most skilled but the best.
Being the best is having better results the anybody else.

Also stuff like "Multi 21" for his case or the blackmail of Dennis for Alonso once again are arguments for the question: Who is the Greatest of all time.

So a top 5 that you asked should be Vettel, Hamilton, Alonso, Raikkonen, Button.
You are completely right and completely wrong.

You are completely right in the sense the statistics show who the best is.

You are completely wrong in saying they show who the best DRIVER is.

The statistics show completely accurately what the best One Driver/Car combination is. That's what the driver's championship is. The best combination of 1 car and 1 driver.
The constructors championship is the best combination of 2 cars and 2 drivers.
It's elementary really. I don't know how you can confuse it with driver skill.

People in this thread are trying to determine that in those Car/Driver combinations, keeping aside the car as equal for everyone, which driver has the most speed.

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Re: Just who is the best F1 driver on the grid?

Post by Caserole of Nonsense »

overall alonso.
because if you put alonso, hamilton, vettel, etc in, for example, 10th place on the grid every race of the season he would win the championship imo. great starter, great overtaker, few mistakes and damn fast. probably doesnt get the credit he deserves for outright speed. hamilton and vettel have shown weaknesses when racing 'in the pack' that alonso doesnt have. and hes great in the wet.

and i dont even like him! although i am warming to him after the deck chair incident and general 'honda is s**t' humour.

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Re: Just who is the best F1 driver on the grid?

Post by Rockie »

Caserole of Nonsense wrote:overall alonso.
because if you put alonso, hamilton, vettel, etc in, for example, 10th place on the grid every race of the season he would win the championship imo. great starter, great overtaker, few mistakes and damn fast. probably doesnt get the credit he deserves for outright speed. hamilton and vettel have shown weaknesses when racing 'in the pack' that alonso doesnt have. and hes great in the wet.

and i dont even like him! although i am warming to him after the deck chair incident and general 'honda is s**t' humour.
Raikkonen will tell you, you can never win a championship this way! the problem with that is whilst you are navigating your way from 10th the guys infront are already a pitstop ahead!

Now qualifying poorly and working your way forward is not a skill!

Vettel and Hamilton hardly ever get into such situations!

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Re: Just who is the best F1 driver on the grid?

Post by Invade »

Rosberg must also be commended for being a proven elite qualifier across his whole career, more or less.

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Re: Just who is the best F1 driver on the grid?

Post by Caserole of Nonsense »

Rockie wrote:
Caserole of Nonsense wrote:overall alonso.
because if you put alonso, hamilton, vettel, etc in, for example, 10th place on the grid every race of the season he would win the championship imo. great starter, great overtaker, few mistakes and damn fast. probably doesnt get the credit he deserves for outright speed. hamilton and vettel have shown weaknesses when racing 'in the pack' that alonso doesnt have. and hes great in the wet.

and i dont even like him! although i am warming to him after the deck chair incident and general 'honda is s**t' humour.
Raikkonen will tell you, you can never win a championship this way! the problem with that is whilst you are navigating your way from 10th the guys infront are already a pitstop ahead!

Now qualifying poorly and working your way forward is not a skill!

Vettel and Hamilton hardly ever get into such situations!
i think you missed the point.

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Re: Just who is the best F1 driver on the grid?

Post by Herb »

Zoue wrote:
steoc4 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Herb wrote:It amazes me how Ricciardo gets so much credit.

Yes, I do think he is good, but some talk about him like he is an all-time great. He maximised his opportunities in 2014, but I think we need to see a bit more of him at the sharp end before ranking him up anywhere near Alonso, Vettel and Hamilton.
Well to be fair it's quite some achievement to comprehensively beat a four times WDC at the first attempt. That alone would make him worth a look. I agree he's a bit of a wild card but he does look fairly strong overall

There were a whole load of factors affecting Vettel's performance though - drop in motivation not having a car capable of fighting for championships for the first time in years (while Ricciardo had an opposite rise in motivation), horrendous reliability in testing and the first half of the season relative to Ricciardo, meaning he had far less track time to get accustomed to the new cars and tyres, the knowledge that his future lay with Ferrari and looking forward to that, all of the above combined with the fact that he had his first child make me think it's not unreasonable to suggest Vettel was not as focussed and as performant as he might normally be.

I hope Ferrari hire Ricciardo for next season because it will answer a lot of questions - personally I think Vettel would come out on top by a reasonable margin, but it would be closer than it currently is with Raikkonen.
I don't disagree that there were probably mitigating circumstances for Vettel's performances, but even taking that into account Ricciardo himself did very well to secure three wins in a lesser car (to the Mercs).
I acknowledged that Ricciardo is good - beating Vettel in 2014 was seriously impressive. I'm sure nobody would argue with that. However, this was Ricciardo's best (to date) season against Vettel's worst season. Yes he had an inferior car to the Mercs over the season - but his wins only came about when their advantage was negated by mechanical failure, bad luck or collision, leaving him as the best placed package (except sometimes maybe the Williams?). Let's not kid ourselves thinking he won with a car that was miles worse than anyone else.

In a few year's time, when Ricciardo has had chance to compete in a WCC-capable car, I think we'll know more on how good he really is. He may be the best driver on the grid, but we really can't accurately place him at the minute IMO. He was very unlucky last year, I think he is better than Kvyat, but he still got beat by him.

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