New Qualifying Format - Staggered Eliminations

Black_Flag_11 · Post by **Black_Flag_11** » Tue Feb 23, 2016 7:26 pm

http://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/f1-te ... 16-675278/

Just seen this article over on Motorsport.com which claims that teams have agreed a new qualifying system with a more elimination based concept, and the possibility of #%$¥#% TIME BALLAST BASED ON CHAMPIONSHIP POINTS

How it works

Q1
-16 minutes duration
- After 7 minutes, slowest driver is eliminated
- Slowest driver eliminated every 1 minute 30 seconds thereafter until the chequered flag
- 7 drivers eliminated, 15 progress to Q2

Q2
- 15 minutes duration
- After 6 minutes, slowest driver eliminated
- Slowest driver eliminated every 1 minute 30 seconds thereafter until the chequered flag
- 7 drivers eliminated, 8 progress to Q3

Q3
- 14 minutes
- After 5 minutes, slowest driver eliminated
- Slowest driver eliminated every 1 minute 30 seconds thereafter until the chequered flag
- 2 drivers left in final 1 minute 30 seconds

The F1 Commission also discussed a penalty system whereby extra time is added to each drivers' qualifying time on the basis of championship positions.

A study was conducted using the 2015 Abu Dhabi GP with the championship leader having four seconds added to his qualifying time, with everyone else taking extra time on a sliding scale.

It is understood that this could be combined with the elimination system, but it is not believed to have gathered the necessary support.

EDIT: Thread title edited to discuss elimination format - as Motorsport.com article has since been edited to confirm that ballast will not be happening.

chican · Post by **chican** » Tue Feb 23, 2016 7:31 pm

It wouldn't be cool to add qualifying time in the early stages of the season. Maybe half-way through on. 4 seconds is too much time.

Sonic4liv3 · Post by **Sonic4liv3** » Tue Feb 23, 2016 7:34 pm

http://beta.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/122937

autosport has an article , no sign of time ballast

HS Thompson · Post by **HS Thompson** » Tue Feb 23, 2016 7:54 pm

F1 continues to spiral uncontrollably into the toilet.

Sigh...............

Asphalt_World · Post by **Asphalt_World** » Tue Feb 23, 2016 7:54 pm

I think the new concept of knocking drivers out bit by bit could be good, although I worry than engines and gearboxes will take much more of a hammering than normal. I'm assuming extra tyres will be available. It could also be pretty mad on track in Q1.

As for adding ballast, well I would hate that.

All that work to create a great car/driver combo removed because you did it better than the others.

Colo134 · Post by **Colo134** » Tue Feb 23, 2016 7:59 pm

watch this come in to play and then be dropped half way through the season like in 2005 when they added 2 single laptimes together. it wont make a difference imo. time ballast is a no no and i cant see it happening

steoc4 · Post by **steoc4** » Tue Feb 23, 2016 8:01 pm

Time ballast isn't mentioned in the autosport article and it seems far too stupid even for Formula 1 so I can't see it happening.

But even putting that aside, why are they changing the qualifying format? The qualifying format is literally the one and only thing in current F1 that most people think is actually pretty good and better than previous formats. Pretty much everything else about the sport is as bad or worse than it's ever been. And in the face of that, the response is to change the qualifying format. Seriously, how inept can they be?

Pietkok · Post by **Pietkok** » Tue Feb 23, 2016 8:01 pm

Won't it decrease track action? Now the 'not top teams' keep qualifying till the end of a session, but they can't if they get knocked out at the start.

Zoue · Post by **Zoue** » Tue Feb 23, 2016 8:16 pm

Oh, God. Is there nothing these idiots won't tamper with to "spice up the show?"

mcdo · Post by **mcdo** » Tue Feb 23, 2016 8:17 pm

Surely they'll have to reset the times every time someone gets knocked out. Because the early laptimes will all remain the quickest times due to tyre wear. I'm willing to give this a fair shot, I had previously mentioned that the current qualy format did nothing for me

fieldstvl · Post by **fieldstvl** » Tue Feb 23, 2016 8:18 pm

If there was one thing F1 didn't need to change...

Remmirath · Post by **Remmirath** » Tue Feb 23, 2016 8:19 pm

I don't have a huge problem with the individual elimination proposal, although I don't think that it would be any better than what we have now, and could end up being worse. It's certainly better than a reverse grid or time ballast.

It seems like the theory behind this is to keep people from putting in only one very good lap to get through each time, and to put a greater reward on consistency, but I think if anything that's likely to result in less shakeups on the grid. Maybe that's the plan, but that's a pretty odd thing to do if you're concerned that there's not enough interest in qualifying.

moby · Post by **moby** » Tue Feb 23, 2016 8:23 pm

So, they need a new staff member to calculate the best lap speed to gain positions but not walk it.

mds · Post by **mds** » Tue Feb 23, 2016 8:39 pm

Ah. Now qualifying will become a tyre preserving game as well. Just what we needed.

Bloody idiots.

Underviewer · Post by **Underviewer** » Tue Feb 23, 2016 8:50 pm

I suppose it'll be fine until a car that has recently been eliminated holds up another car who is attempting to avoid elimination and in turn gets eliminated.

WHoff78 · Post by **WHoff78** » Tue Feb 23, 2016 9:00 pm

Qualifying will remain as a one-hour session, split into three segments, but drivers must be on track throughout each part until they get knocked out.

Seems like it'll be a little chaotic - perhaps a big emphasis on finding a suitable gap to set a quick time, particularly in Q1. I assume that they will still be able to pit to change tires, just have to go straight back out again!?

mikeyg123 · Post by **mikeyg123** » Tue Feb 23, 2016 9:24 pm

I love the knockout bit. Something I have been talking about for a few years.

Time ballast in quali - I actually like the idea! Only after the first 6 or so races though. It would be an easy way to make for consistently amazing racing and unpredictable quali.

Herb · Post by **Herb** » Tue Feb 23, 2016 10:03 pm

Hadn't realised this could be introduced this year, I'd assumed it would be for 2017.

I don't move the knockout thing, we might see more of the cars, but surely they'll need more tyres?

Hate the weighted lap times though.

Schumacher forever#1 · Tue Feb 23, 2016 10:14 pm

Just as I was getting my hopes up about the new F1 season, they deliver a punch to the stomach. What a joke.

So if we get wet conditions in qualifying, it'll literally become a lottery? Qualifying was the one thing F1 got right in the past few years, and they're taking it away.

And no, I'm not pis sed after that Arsenal match!

Lotus49 · Post by **Lotus49** » Tue Feb 23, 2016 10:52 pm

Christ on a bike.

moby · Post by **moby** » Tue Feb 23, 2016 10:53 pm

Thinking on this, the faster cars need do only 1 flying lap in q1, then park up.
The fastest cars need do only one flying lap in q2, but be ready to go out at the end.
The pulled car will be slowest time, not slowest on the track, so no need for most of them to be out running until the limit reaches their time.

I thought the style we have/had last year was to stop these empty track sessions.

babararacucudada · Post by **babararacucudada** » Tue Feb 23, 2016 10:59 pm

So you get a race every 90 seconds in qualifying (so they would have to change the rules about not blocking other cars) - and if you can hold a car back for a lap until the last corner, then sprint away, you should be able to eliminate them. Teams could use both cars to block. It will be particularly interesting at Monaco - we could see Hamilton qualify last if some team could block him enough.

WHoff78 · Post by **WHoff78** » Tue Feb 23, 2016 11:09 pm

Schumacher forever#1 wrote:Just as I was getting my hopes up about the new F1 season, they deliver a punch to the stomach. What a joke.

So if we get wet conditions in qualifying, it'll literally become a lottery? Qualifying was the one thing F1 got right in the past few years, and they're taking it away.

And no, I'm not pis sed after that Arsenal match!

Surely it will be less of a lottery – before if it started to rain then teams could be in trouble if they hadn’t set a lap. With cars on track at all time they will all be more likely to set banker laps, and will need a relatively decent time before the first elimination (roughly halfway through each session). Before someone would wait right to then end to set a hop lap, which won’t be an option any more.

Guessing the aim is to ensure more action on track, and try and make the whole session somewhat interesting, rather than a surge of action at the end of each session. Surely you will just get a lot of cars cruising round though, as if doing warm-up/warm-down laps? The fastest teams will just have to set two quick times per session, as opposed to one, which isn't that different to what they normally do anyway. Also won't teams (Ferrari did it a fair bit last season) be less able to save tyre sets in Q1 to gain an advantage come race day?

ALESI · Post by **ALESI** » Tue Feb 23, 2016 11:47 pm

It does actually say in the Motorsport.com article that the ballast idea was talked about but was rejected. No way in hell Merc would agree to that!

Black_Flag_11 · Post by **Black_Flag_11** » Tue Feb 23, 2016 11:57 pm

I don't really like the staggered eliminations but I could accept it.

The ballast literally makes no sense to me though. Who is it for? The majority of current fans will surely hate it because it's completely artificial.

As for new/casual viewers, how exactly do you explain to someone who is new to the sport that the guy who just set the second quickest time will actually get pole because he has performed consistently worse than the driver who set the quickest time over the season, therefore having less points, so as a result we have decided to reward that with pole.

What a ridiculous farce, I really hope that it doesn't get past the planning stage but frankly after double points went ahead I just don't know any more. I almost want to let them loose with all of their terrible ideas for improving the show. Sprinklers, performance ballast, double points every other round or whatever else they can come up with. Then we can simply write off a season and get rid of them after (hopefully) no one watches it.

Black_Flag_11 · Post by **Black_Flag_11** » Wed Feb 24, 2016 12:00 am

ALESI wrote:It does actually say in the Motorsport.com article that the ballast idea was talked about but was rejected. No way in hell Merc would agree to that!

They've actually added that last bit on since I started the thread. The article originally only said what I quoted in the OP and didn't contain the line about not having enough support.

Apologies for the misleading thread everyone, blame Motorsport.com

Thread title and OP edited

babararacucudada · Post by **babararacucudada** » Wed Feb 24, 2016 12:15 am

If they do keep the non-obstruction rule, then if the times suit you, it's in your interests to overdo it and go up an escape road - thereby using up a lot of the remaining time.

I expect it will be possible to manipulate this system in various ways (yellow flags etc.). It would probably be more interesting and I expect it would be less fair.

Glasnost · Post by **Glasnost** » Wed Feb 24, 2016 12:17 am

I think the idea is a joke...... I suggest the drivers have to jog/sprint a lap with an egg and spoon o then jump into their cars before the start of quali. they then complete a tyre saving lap, followed by a fuel saving lap.... after which the 10 fastest drivers who saved the most compete in a round-robin rock paper scissors competition to determine starting grid....

Placid · Post by **Placid** » Wed Feb 24, 2016 12:44 am

This is like velodrome cycling rules.

OR BETTER YET!!!!!

THIS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

FROM ADZUNA.CO.UK

theferret · Post by **theferret** » Wed Feb 24, 2016 12:54 am

Every 1:30? Well that's just great for tracks like Spa isn't it...they've picked an arbitrary figure without any thought given to the different tracks. And this takes tyre deg into consideration HOW?! They think every 1:30 will mean drivers will push hard more frequently, but that's just not possible since they'll need to pit for more tyres, they have limited sets, and the crossover times are so short once the eliminations start in the middle of a session that you are actually far
Far more likely to know who will be eliminated next.

What morons. Seriously, who the hell thought this was what needed changing? Who did they ask Amongst fans? I thought the existing quali structure was pretty good. People whined that it meant Mercedes made it boring, but this structure is just more likely to guarantee that Mercedes cars set a hot lap earlier in the session then do nothing. In fact, all cars will be in track for a shorter amount of time as they'll go for one hot lap early in the session.

Frankly the concept is exciting but with current tyre rules, and varying track lengths, this is going to be a complete farce.

mac_d · Post by **mac_d** » Wed Feb 24, 2016 1:41 am

I do not care for this idea.

I'd leave qualifying in it's current format rather than convolute the whole thing with 90 second eliminations which just seems like something out a videogame.

2fast · Post by **2fast** » Wed Feb 24, 2016 1:51 am

So let confirm my understanding on these changes:

Q1
-16 minutes duration
- After 7 minutes, slowest driver is eliminated
- Slowest driver eliminated every 1 minute 30 seconds thereafter until the chequered flag
- 7 drivers eliminated, 15 progress to Q2
So, should a front runner driver (e.g. Hamilton or Vettel) experience any problem in the first 7 minutes of Q1 and couldn't set any proper lap time, that means he'd be eliminated early.

Q3
- 14 minutes
- After 5 minutes, slowest driver eliminated
- Slowest driver eliminated every 1 minute 30 seconds thereafter until the chequered flag
- 2 drivers left in final 1 minute 30 seconds
So we could only see 2 drivers in the closing stages of qualifying???

pokerman · Post by **pokerman** » Wed Feb 24, 2016 2:25 am

Total rubbish and bonkers, F1 slowly goes down the toilet, and they brought up the ballast thing as well.

This follows on from Bernies comments about changing qualifying, this is fear of Mercedes domination and an attempt to make qualifying a lottery, if lap times get reset after a car is eliminated then each driver has 90 seconds to set a lap, if he gets baulked then he's out.

Is this the context of it and if so it's just total madness, I would think a Bernie inspired madness.

hittheapex · Post by **hittheapex** » Wed Feb 24, 2016 3:01 am

Even in "unlimited" F1 before restrictions on engines and gearboxes teams and drivers did not do this. Therefore I fail to see how this won't end up as drivers cruising round pointlessly like they did with "fuel burning" in 2008, then pit for their real tyres and do a run.

Like a lot of things introduced in a vain bid to make F1 closer and more exciting, it's just too damn complicated. If their goal was to ensure that cars remained on track during the session, they could have given them extra tyres for Saturday and not reduced the engines and gearboxes permitted. That would be more likely to work.

As others have written already, qualifying was arguably the only thing that most fans were happier with today compared to previous eras and qualifying is not for tyre saving.

purchville · Post by **purchville** » Wed Feb 24, 2016 3:25 am

So the one thing that's actually half decent about current F1, the qualifying format, is going to be tampered with...brilliant

purchville · Post by **purchville** » Wed Feb 24, 2016 3:35 am

Pietkok wrote:Won't it decrease track action? Now the 'not top teams' keep qualifying till the end of a session, but they can't if they get knocked out at the start.

I would have thought so. It just means the top teams have to perform their single run a bit earlier, rather than at the end when the track is more evolved. Cars getting eliminated every few minutes means that all cars except the few near the drop zone will subsequently sit in the pits and wait for Q2/Q3. Plus less cars overall in Q2 and Q3 makes for less surprises.

Exediron · Post by **Exediron** » Wed Feb 24, 2016 5:51 am

Strikes me as a poor idea. Almost everyone I've talked to agrees that the current (or is it past now?) system is one of the few things that's right with F1 at the moment, so why dick with it? There's plenty wrong to fix without picking one of the things they've got right.

Black_Flag_11 wrote:and the possibility of #%$¥#% TIME BALLAST BASED ON CHAMPIONSHIP POINTS

My feelings exactly, so I'm quite relived to see they aren't doing it!

Toby. · Post by **Toby.** » Wed Feb 24, 2016 6:28 am

Any situation in which a competitive car is needed to be worked on for the first half of Q1, like we see many times throughout the season, will now just mean they don't get to go out onto the track. Does that increase or decrease action on the track? Wouldn't eliminating drivers in general before the end of the season result in less action happening on the track?

Laz_T800 · Post by **Laz_T800** » Wed Feb 24, 2016 7:39 am

I didn't have a problem with the previous qualifying format but I'm always open to change.
If it's horrible I'm sure they'll change it.
I can see it being chaotic at times which is what the powers that be probably want so the casual viewer has something to be drawn in by.
Can see a lot of topsy turvey grids in the very near future.

Alex53 · Post by **Alex53** » Wed Feb 24, 2016 7:47 am

I think the new format is not necessarily a bad one, but as others have said above, qualy is one of the things they didn't need to fix, and with some much else to address, they go and tamper with this. It makes little sense.