Gutierrez being evaluated for '17 drive at Ferrari

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ChopSchuey
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Gutierrez being evaluated for '17 drive at Ferrari

Post by ChopSchuey »

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/122336

Oh heck no!!!

Are we seeing Massa Mk2?

Another Ferrari no2 lapdog?

This will do Vettel's reputation no good!

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Re: Gutierrez being evaluated for '17 drive at Ferrari

Post by pokerman »

Gutierrez but not Grosjean, being heavily sponsored perhaps helps?
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Re: Gutierrez being evaluated for '17 drive at Ferrari

Post by mikeyg123 »

pokerman wrote:Gutierrez but not Grosjean, being heavily sponsored perhaps helps?
Neither are good enough for Ferrari. Gutierrez isn't anywhere near though.

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Re: Gutierrez being evaluated for '17 drive at Ferrari

Post by Exediron »

I'm not concerned, because I expect him to fail the evaluation. If Grosjean destroys him they'll look silly if they put Gutierrez in the Ferrari. He's a bottom tier F1 driver at best, and I'm not even sure he's good enough for F1 based on how Hulk's reputation is doing nowadays.
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Re: Gutierrez being evaluated for '17 drive at Ferrari

Post by F1Oz »

Doubt he'd be the first choice of Ferrari seeing they have 'cheapish' options of talented drivers on tap for 2017

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Re: Gutierrez being evaluated for '17 drive at Ferrari

Post by UnlikeUday »

I believe this is a decoy so that Haas readily keep him for a year & not some other driver. This is to keep Gutierrez's sponsors happy.
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Re: Gutierrez being evaluated for '17 drive at Ferrari

Post by theferret »

Can't see Gutierrez ever being offered a full-time Ferrari seat. He has to have developed a heck of a lot in the past year if he's not be considered one of the weakest drivers on the grid, as I don't think he was much better than Ericsson in 2014. I would not take this Haas story at all seriously - at least not in terms of a proper Ferrari drive.
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Re: Gutierrez being evaluated for '17 drive at Ferrari

Post by mikeyg123 »

theferret wrote:Can't see Gutierrez ever being offered a full-time Ferrari seat. He has to have developed a heck of a lot in the past year if he's not be considered one of the weakest drivers on the grid, as I don't think he was much better than Ericsson in 2014. I would not take this Haas story at all seriously - at least not in terms of a proper Ferrari drive.
To be fair in 2014 he was much better than 2013. Sutil at times has been rated as a top 10 F1 driver and Gutierrez matched him. Not really enough for a Ferrari drive though.

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Re: Gutierrez being evaluated for '17 drive at Ferrari

Post by theferret »

mikeyg123 wrote:
theferret wrote:Can't see Gutierrez ever being offered a full-time Ferrari seat. He has to have developed a heck of a lot in the past year if he's not be considered one of the weakest drivers on the grid, as I don't think he was much better than Ericsson in 2014. I would not take this Haas story at all seriously - at least not in terms of a proper Ferrari drive.
To be fair in 2014 he was much better than 2013. Sutil at times has been rated as a top 10 F1 driver and Gutierrez matched him. Not really enough for a Ferrari drive though.
Sutil was also at a huge weight disadvantage - and was no better on his return than a demoralised di Resta in 2013. I thought Sutil was pretty good up to his peak in 2011, but was not a top 10 driver in 2013.

Gutierrez had improved in 2014, but he still made a plethora of mistakes (I remember him spearing of the track in quali in Britain), and his 2013 was so dire, he pretty much couldn't do any worse!
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Re: Gutierrez being evaluated for '17 drive at Ferrari

Post by Black_Flag_11 »

There was a story a while ago that Ferrari's Mexican sponsors were pushing for Gutierrez to take Kimi's seat.

This just looks like the compromise, the Haas seat and the chance to prove himself, I doubt he will make it based on 2013/14 but good luck to him.

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Re: Gutierrez being evaluated for '17 drive at Ferrari

Post by Paolo_Lasardi »

Well, Gutierrez would be a good No. 2 to Vettel since he would not challenge him ...

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Re: Gutierrez being evaluated for '17 drive at Ferrari

Post by hittheapex »

This reminds me of an exchange between Murray Walker and Martin Brundle during Monaco qualifying:

Murray: "There's some debate in the paddock about whether Rosset is good enough for F1."
Brundle: "It's a fairly short debate Murray."
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Re: Gutierrez being evaluated for '17 drive at Ferrari

Post by VDV23 »

Gutierrez being considered for A Ferrari drive?

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Re: Gutierrez being evaluated for '17 drive at Ferrari

Post by Lt. Drebin »

GUT was one of those that so far did not impress in any way. But, if he develops himself, why not? There were drivers that, at first did not impress even for a few years, being beaten by their fellows drivers, but than shined afterwards. Mansell was regularly beaten by De Angelis but became a legend later. Villeneuve was first beaten fair and square by Reutemann, and than flourished. Massa was beaten by Schumacher and Raikkonen and than was a nearly a champ. Let's wait and see what Ferrari knows about GUT that makes him a candidate for a seat.
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Re: Gutierrez being evaluated for '17 drive at Ferrari

Post by Jenson's Understeer »

I don't really see why this is such a news story. Gutierrez is Ferrari's test/reserve driver, is driving for their B-team in 2016, and there is potentially a Ferrari seat available in 2017. So he's obviously being evaluated for that seat, even if right now, you would have to say it would be a big surprise if he actually got it. Kind of surprised Autosport ran with such an obvious story. Next they'll be telling us that Will Stevens would like the opportunity to drive for Merc in 2017...
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Re: Gutierrez being evaluated for '17 drive at Ferrari

Post by F1 MERCENARY »

Whilst Gutierrez has proven he is barely capable of holding a paid for seat in F1, in this day and age, a good amount of sponsorship dollars is something to consider if the guy can at least make up the numbers (which I'm not sure he can), a Ferrari looking to once again be 100% independent will give him as hard a look as anyone. Personally if money is what this is about, why not scoop up Maldonado and get the most added dollars? While he has his moments, I think we can all agree he is a much better driver than Guttierez and would likely push Vettel more than most, as he's not one to back down to anyone.

I don't know why some folks continue to speak of Grosjean as if he's not proven he is quite capable when he's showed it.

He'd be the best possible pick up from all the drivers potentially going on the open market in the near future. Let's see how well or poor HAAS do and if the car is surprisingly good(difficult for me to believe when Dallara engineered and built their chassis) then Grosjean's pedigree might just smack some people in the face. The guy is a ridiculously good talent. Would love o see him paired with Vettel.
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Re: Gutierrez being evaluated for '17 drive at Ferrari

Post by mikeyg123 »

F1 MERCENARY wrote:Whilst Gutierrez has proven he is barely capable of holding a paid for seat in F1, in this day and age, a good amount of sponsorship dollars is something to consider if the guy can at least make up the numbers (which I'm not sure he can), a Ferrari looking to once again be 100% independent will give him as hard a look as anyone. Personally if money is what this is about, why not scoop up Maldonado and get the most added dollars? While he has his moments, I think we can all agree he is a much better driver than Guttierez and would likely push Vettel more than most, as he's not one to back down to anyone.

I don't know why some folks continue to speak of Grosjean as if he's not proven he is quite capable when he's showed it.

He'd be the best possible pick up from all the drivers potentially going on the open market in the near future. Let's see how well or poor HAAS do and if the car is surprisingly good(difficult for me to believe when Dallara engineered and built their chassis) then Grosjean's pedigree might just smack some people in the face. The guy is a ridiculously good talent. Would love o see him paired with Vettel.
All Grosjean has proven is that he isn't as good as Raikkonen and a bit better than Maldanado.

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Re: Gutierrez being evaluated for '17 drive at Ferrari

Post by hittheapex »

Lt. Drebin wrote:GUT was one of those that so far did not impress in any way. But, if he develops himself, why not? There were drivers that, at first did not impress even for a few years, being beaten by their fellows drivers, but than shined afterwards. Mansell was regularly beaten by De Angelis but became a legend later. Villeneuve was first beaten fair and square by Reutemann, and than flourished. Massa was beaten by Schumacher and Raikkonen and than was a nearly a champ. Let's wait and see what Ferrari knows about GUT that makes him a candidate for a seat.
Fair enough, but I think the team mates in the examples you give are of a quite higher calibre than those Guttierez has been paired with, Hulkenberg and then Sutil. Massa and Gilles were beaten by drivers who had won races and/or titles. Good luck to him but when Guttierez couldn't beat two drivers who have been repeatedly passed over by top teams, I believe this rumour is driven more by optimistic sponsors than a serious consideration by Ferrari. Of course, maybe he can force us doubters to change our opinion in 2016.
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Re: Gutierrez being evaluated for '17 drive at Ferrari

Post by Exediron »

hittheapex wrote:Fair enough, but I think the team mates in the examples you give are of a quite higher calibre than those Guttierez has been paired with, Hulkenberg and then Sutil. Massa and Gilles were beaten by drivers who had won races and/or titles. Good luck to him but when Guttierez couldn't beat two drivers who have been repeatedly passed over by top teams, I believe this rumour is driven more by optimistic sponsors than a serious consideration by Ferrari. Of course, maybe he can force us doubters to change our opinion in 2016.
Well, if he beats Grosjean - and I don't mean simply outscores, I mean actually outperforms Grosjean - in 2016 I will be forced to change my opinion. I just think it's more likely that Rosberg dominates the world championship and Vettel is soundly beaten by Kimi. I'm somewhat 50/50 on pigs flying.
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Re: Gutierrez being evaluated for '17 drive at Ferrari

Post by kleefton »

mikeyg123 wrote:
F1 MERCENARY wrote:Whilst Gutierrez has proven he is barely capable of holding a paid for seat in F1, in this day and age, a good amount of sponsorship dollars is something to consider if the guy can at least make up the numbers (which I'm not sure he can), a Ferrari looking to once again be 100% independent will give him as hard a look as anyone. Personally if money is what this is about, why not scoop up Maldonado and get the most added dollars? While he has his moments, I think we can all agree he is a much better driver than Guttierez and would likely push Vettel more than most, as he's not one to back down to anyone.

I don't know why some folks continue to speak of Grosjean as if he's not proven he is quite capable when he's showed it.

He'd be the best possible pick up from all the drivers potentially going on the open market in the near future. Let's see how well or poor HAAS do and if the car is surprisingly good(difficult for me to believe when Dallara engineered and built their chassis) then Grosjean's pedigree might just smack some people in the face. The guy is a ridiculously good talent. Would love o see him paired with Vettel.
All Grosjean has proven is that he isn't as good as Raikkonen and a bit better than Maldanado.
Grosjean spanked raikonnen for their last races together. Grosjean has a lot of raw speed but he has struggled keeping his nose clean in the past and in doing so he gave away the battle with kimi. Something clicked with him in the second half of 13'. He has been nearly flawless since then. I expect gutierrez to struggle being within 5 tenths of grosjean in qualifying and it is going to be a massacre of a teammate battle between these 2.

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Re: Gutierrez being evaluated for '17 drive at Ferrari

Post by nixxxon »

Didnt impress me much at Sauber. In his debut season he was absolutely humiliated by Hulkenberg

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Re: Gutierrez being evaluated for '17 drive at Ferrari

Post by mikeyg123 »

kleefton wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
F1 MERCENARY wrote:Whilst Gutierrez has proven he is barely capable of holding a paid for seat in F1, in this day and age, a good amount of sponsorship dollars is something to consider if the guy can at least make up the numbers (which I'm not sure he can), a Ferrari looking to once again be 100% independent will give him as hard a look as anyone. Personally if money is what this is about, why not scoop up Maldonado and get the most added dollars? While he has his moments, I think we can all agree he is a much better driver than Guttierez and would likely push Vettel more than most, as he's not one to back down to anyone.

I don't know why some folks continue to speak of Grosjean as if he's not proven he is quite capable when he's showed it.

He'd be the best possible pick up from all the drivers potentially going on the open market in the near future. Let's see how well or poor HAAS do and if the car is surprisingly good(difficult for me to believe when Dallara engineered and built their chassis) then Grosjean's pedigree might just smack some people in the face. The guy is a ridiculously good talent. Would love o see him paired with Vettel.
All Grosjean has proven is that he isn't as good as Raikkonen and a bit better than Maldanado.
Grosjean spanked raikonnen for their last races together. Grosjean has a lot of raw speed but he has struggled keeping his nose clean in the past and in doing so he gave away the battle with kimi. Something clicked with him in the second half of 13'. He has been nearly flawless since then. I expect gutierrez to struggle being within 5 tenths of grosjean in qualifying and it is going to be a massacre of a teammate battle between these 2.
He beat managed to beat Kimi once Kimi had basically given up. He got well beaten by him Kimi for a season two thirds. He still crashes too often as well. Crashed out of more races than Maldanado over the last two seasons I believe? I expect him to beat Gutierrez but I can't agree that he has "proven he is capable" in the context of a possible for Ferrari drive. I think quite the opposite actually and would be a worse pick than Perez, Hulk or Bottas.

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Re: Gutierrez being evaluated for '17 drive at Ferrari

Post by kleefton »

If he crashed more than maldonado then its even more surprising how he has comprehensively outscored him. But though im unable to check the facts at this present tme i highly doubt that is the case. In the past year i cannot recall one dnf that was his fault.

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Re: Gutierrez being evaluated for '17 drive at Ferrari

Post by mikeyg123 »

kleefton wrote:If he crashed more than maldonado then its even more surprising how he has comprehensively outscored him. But though im unable to check the facts at this present tme i highly doubt that is the case. In the past year i cannot recall one dnf that was his fault.
Russia and Silverstone this year. Perhaps Monza as well. I don't remember how he broke his suspension there? So at least 2 compared to Maldanado's 1 from the past year (and that is a fairly harsh 1).

Grosjean outscored Maldanado because he didn't have people crashing into him, didn't have his car failures when in good positions and because he just is a little bit better. Being a little bit better than Maldanado probably isn't enough though. Unless you really rate Maldanado.

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Re: Gutierrez being evaluated for '17 drive at Ferrari

Post by kleefton »

mikeyg123 wrote:
kleefton wrote:If he crashed more than maldonado then its even more surprising how he has comprehensively outscored him. But though im unable to check the facts at this present tme i highly doubt that is the case. In the past year i cannot recall one dnf that was his fault.
Russia and Silverstone this year. Perhaps Monza as well. I don't remember how he broke his suspension there? So at least 2 compared to Maldanado's 1 from the past year (and that is a fairly harsh 1).

Grosjean outscored Maldanado because he didn't have people crashing into him, didn't have his car failures when in good positions and because he just is a little bit better. Being a little bit better than Maldanado probably isn't enough though. Unless you really rate Maldanado.
At Silverstone grosjean got initially hit by ricciardo.
In Russia he lost the car while following a mclaren at really high speeds. It is usually impossible to catch a sliding car at those speeds. Otherwise senna would still be with us.
At Monza it appeared to me he got hit.

I guess people forget Grosjean was the second highest point scorer for the second half of 2013. People also forget that the stewards may have cost him a race win in Hungary that same year. When the guy has the car to do it he has delivered. That spa podium this year was another amazing achievement. That car had no business being near the podium.

How do I rate maldonado? Maldonado is inconsistent but he has shown flashes of brilliance and can produce stunning laps every now and then. But grosjean completely dominated him in raw pace on saturdays for 2 years!!! That says plenty imo.

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Re: Gutierrez being evaluated for '17 drive at Ferrari

Post by mikeyg123 »

kleefton wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
kleefton wrote:If he crashed more than maldonado then its even more surprising how he has comprehensively outscored him. But though im unable to check the facts at this present tme i highly doubt that is the case. In the past year i cannot recall one dnf that was his fault.
Russia and Silverstone this year. Perhaps Monza as well. I don't remember how he broke his suspension there? So at least 2 compared to Maldanado's 1 from the past year (and that is a fairly harsh 1).

Grosjean outscored Maldanado because he didn't have people crashing into him, didn't have his car failures when in good positions and because he just is a little bit better. Being a little bit better than Maldanado probably isn't enough though. Unless you really rate Maldanado.
At Silverstone grosjean got initially hit by ricciardo.
In Russia he lost the car while following a mclaren at really high speeds. It is usually impossible to catch a sliding car at those speeds. Otherwise senna would still be with us.
At Monza it appeared to me he got hit.

I guess people forget Grosjean was the second highest point scorer for the second half of 2013. People also forget that the stewards may have cost him a race win in Hungary that same year. When the guy has the car to do it he has delivered. That spa podium this year was another amazing achievement. That car had no business being near the podium.

How do I rate maldonado? Maldonado is inconsistent but he has shown flashes of brilliance and can produce stunning laps every now and then. But grosjean completely dominated him in raw pace on saturdays for 2 years!!! That says plenty imo.
That's clearly not true. His team mate has won races. in 2012 and 2013 and probably should have won more.

I agree about Hungary 2013 though. Absolute travesty of a decision. I still think of it as one of my favorite overtakes ever.

Grosjean can be good. I just feel that if he has proven anything it's that he is not quite good enough. Quali, he is very strong against Maldanado but was weaker than Kimi.

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Re: Gutierrez being evaluated for '17 drive at Ferrari

Post by kleefton »

mikeyg123 wrote:
kleefton wrote:If he crashed more than maldonado then its even more surprising how he has comprehensively outscored him. But though im unable to check the facts at this present tme i highly doubt that is the case. In the past year i cannot recall one dnf that was his fault.
Russia and Silverstone this year. Perhaps Monza as well. I don't remember how he broke his suspension there? So at least 2 compared to Maldanado's 1 from the past year (and that is a fairly harsh 1).

Grosjean outscored Maldanado because he didn't have people crashing into him, didn't have his car failures when in good positions and because he just is a little bit better. Being a little bit better than Maldanado probably isn't enough though. Unless you really rate Maldanado.
At Silverstone grosjean got initially hit by ricciardo.
In Russia he lost the car while following a mclaren at really high speeds. It is usually impossible to catch a sliding car at those speeds. Otherwise senna would still be with us.
At Monza it appeared to me he got hit.

I guess people forget Grosjean was the second highest point scorer for the second half of 2013. People also forget that the stewards may have cost him a race win in Hungary that same year. When the guy has the car to do it he has delivered. That spa podium this year was another amazing achievement. That car had no business being near the podium.

How do I rate maldonado? Maldonado is inconsistent but he has shown flashes of brilliance and can produce stunning laps every now and then. But grosjean completely dominated him in raw pace on saturdays for 2 years!!! That says plenty imo.

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Re: Gutierrez being evaluated for '17 drive at Ferrari

Post by mikeyg123 »

kleefton wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
kleefton wrote:If he crashed more than maldonado then its even more surprising how he has comprehensively outscored him. But though im unable to check the facts at this present tme i highly doubt that is the case. In the past year i cannot recall one dnf that was his fault.
Russia and Silverstone this year. Perhaps Monza as well. I don't remember how he broke his suspension there? So at least 2 compared to Maldanado's 1 from the past year (and that is a fairly harsh 1).

Grosjean outscored Maldanado because he didn't have people crashing into him, didn't have his car failures when in good positions and because he just is a little bit better. Being a little bit better than Maldanado probably isn't enough though. Unless you really rate Maldanado.
At Silverstone grosjean got initially hit by ricciardo.
In Russia he lost the car while following a mclaren at really high speeds. It is usually impossible to catch a sliding car at those speeds. Otherwise senna would still be with us.
At Monza it appeared to me he got hit.

I guess people forget Grosjean was the second highest point scorer for the second half of 2013. People also forget that the stewards may have cost him a race win in Hungary that same year. When the guy has the car to do it he has delivered. That spa podium this year was another amazing achievement. That car had no business being near the podium.

How do I rate maldonado? Maldonado is inconsistent but he has shown flashes of brilliance and can produce stunning laps every now and then. But grosjean completely dominated him in raw pace on saturdays for 2 years!!! That says plenty imo.
You posted, I replied?

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Re: Gutierrez being evaluated for '17 drive at Ferrari

Post by pokerman »

mikeyg123 wrote:
kleefton wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
kleefton wrote:If he crashed more than maldonado then its even more surprising how he has comprehensively outscored him. But though im unable to check the facts at this present tme i highly doubt that is the case. In the past year i cannot recall one dnf that was his fault.
Russia and Silverstone this year. Perhaps Monza as well. I don't remember how he broke his suspension there? So at least 2 compared to Maldanado's 1 from the past year (and that is a fairly harsh 1).

Grosjean outscored Maldanado because he didn't have people crashing into him, didn't have his car failures when in good positions and because he just is a little bit better. Being a little bit better than Maldanado probably isn't enough though. Unless you really rate Maldanado.
At Silverstone grosjean got initially hit by ricciardo.
In Russia he lost the car while following a mclaren at really high speeds. It is usually impossible to catch a sliding car at those speeds. Otherwise senna would still be with us.
At Monza it appeared to me he got hit.

I guess people forget Grosjean was the second highest point scorer for the second half of 2013. People also forget that the stewards may have cost him a race win in Hungary that same year. When the guy has the car to do it he has delivered. That spa podium this year was another amazing achievement. That car had no business being near the podium.

How do I rate maldonado? Maldonado is inconsistent but he has shown flashes of brilliance and can produce stunning laps every now and then. But grosjean completely dominated him in raw pace on saturdays for 2 years!!! That says plenty imo.
That's clearly not true. His team mate has won races. in 2012 and 2013 and probably should have won more.

I agree about Hungary 2013 though. Absolute travesty of a decision. I still think of it as one of my favorite overtakes ever.

Grosjean can be good. I just feel that if he has proven anything it's that he is not quite good enough. Quali, he is very strong against Maldanado but was weaker than Kimi.
In qualifying he wasn't weaker against Kimi
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Re: Gutierrez being evaluated for '17 drive at Ferrari

Post by Zoue »

pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
kleefton wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
kleefton wrote:If he crashed more than maldonado then its even more surprising how he has comprehensively outscored him. But though im unable to check the facts at this present tme i highly doubt that is the case. In the past year i cannot recall one dnf that was his fault.
Russia and Silverstone this year. Perhaps Monza as well. I don't remember how he broke his suspension there? So at least 2 compared to Maldanado's 1 from the past year (and that is a fairly harsh 1).

Grosjean outscored Maldanado because he didn't have people crashing into him, didn't have his car failures when in good positions and because he just is a little bit better. Being a little bit better than Maldanado probably isn't enough though. Unless you really rate Maldanado.
At Silverstone grosjean got initially hit by ricciardo.
In Russia he lost the car while following a mclaren at really high speeds. It is usually impossible to catch a sliding car at those speeds. Otherwise senna would still be with us.
At Monza it appeared to me he got hit.

I guess people forget Grosjean was the second highest point scorer for the second half of 2013. People also forget that the stewards may have cost him a race win in Hungary that same year. When the guy has the car to do it he has delivered. That spa podium this year was another amazing achievement. That car had no business being near the podium.

How do I rate maldonado? Maldonado is inconsistent but he has shown flashes of brilliance and can produce stunning laps every now and then. But grosjean completely dominated him in raw pace on saturdays for 2 years!!! That says plenty imo.
That's clearly not true. His team mate has won races. in 2012 and 2013 and probably should have won more.

I agree about Hungary 2013 though. Absolute travesty of a decision. I still think of it as one of my favorite overtakes ever.

Grosjean can be good. I just feel that if he has proven anything it's that he is not quite good enough. Quali, he is very strong against Maldanado but was weaker than Kimi.
In qualifying he wasn't weaker against Kimi
He generally was in 2013. It took him eight races before he even got on the scorecard and it was only from Singapore that he started to catch up, which was coincidentally when Kimi's back problems first appeared. Overall Kimi looked quicker

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Re: Gutierrez being evaluated for '17 drive at Ferrari

Post by mikeyg123 »

pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
kleefton wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
kleefton wrote:If he crashed more than maldonado then its even more surprising how he has comprehensively outscored him. But though im unable to check the facts at this present tme i highly doubt that is the case. In the past year i cannot recall one dnf that was his fault.
Russia and Silverstone this year. Perhaps Monza as well. I don't remember how he broke his suspension there? So at least 2 compared to Maldanado's 1 from the past year (and that is a fairly harsh 1).

Grosjean outscored Maldanado because he didn't have people crashing into him, didn't have his car failures when in good positions and because he just is a little bit better. Being a little bit better than Maldanado probably isn't enough though. Unless you really rate Maldanado.
At Silverstone grosjean got initially hit by ricciardo.
In Russia he lost the car while following a mclaren at really high speeds. It is usually impossible to catch a sliding car at those speeds. Otherwise senna would still be with us.
At Monza it appeared to me he got hit.

I guess people forget Grosjean was the second highest point scorer for the second half of 2013. People also forget that the stewards may have cost him a race win in Hungary that same year. When the guy has the car to do it he has delivered. That spa podium this year was another amazing achievement. That car had no business being near the podium.

How do I rate maldonado? Maldonado is inconsistent but he has shown flashes of brilliance and can produce stunning laps every now and then. But grosjean completely dominated him in raw pace on saturdays for 2 years!!! That says plenty imo.
That's clearly not true. His team mate has won races. in 2012 and 2013 and probably should have won more.

I agree about Hungary 2013 though. Absolute travesty of a decision. I still think of it as one of my favorite overtakes ever.

Grosjean can be good. I just feel that if he has proven anything it's that he is not quite good enough. Quali, he is very strong against Maldanado but was weaker than Kimi.
In qualifying he wasn't weaker against Kimi
Both seasons he was out qualified by Kimi.

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Re: Gutierrez being evaluated for '17 drive at Ferrari

Post by pokerman »

mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
kleefton wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote: Russia and Silverstone this year. Perhaps Monza as well. I don't remember how he broke his suspension there? So at least 2 compared to Maldanado's 1 from the past year (and that is a fairly harsh 1).

Grosjean outscored Maldanado because he didn't have people crashing into him, didn't have his car failures when in good positions and because he just is a little bit better. Being a little bit better than Maldanado probably isn't enough though. Unless you really rate Maldanado.
At Silverstone grosjean got initially hit by ricciardo.
In Russia he lost the car while following a mclaren at really high speeds. It is usually impossible to catch a sliding car at those speeds. Otherwise senna would still be with us.
At Monza it appeared to me he got hit.

I guess people forget Grosjean was the second highest point scorer for the second half of 2013. People also forget that the stewards may have cost him a race win in Hungary that same year. When the guy has the car to do it he has delivered. That spa podium this year was another amazing achievement. That car had no business being near the podium.

How do I rate maldonado? Maldonado is inconsistent but he has shown flashes of brilliance and can produce stunning laps every now and then. But grosjean completely dominated him in raw pace on saturdays for 2 years!!! That says plenty imo.
That's clearly not true. His team mate has won races. in 2012 and 2013 and probably should have won more.

I agree about Hungary 2013 though. Absolute travesty of a decision. I still think of it as one of my favorite overtakes ever.

Grosjean can be good. I just feel that if he has proven anything it's that he is not quite good enough. Quali, he is very strong against Maldanado but was weaker than Kimi.
In qualifying he wasn't weaker against Kimi
Both seasons he was out qualified by Kimi.
You state that like it's an undisputable fact but upon checking I found this:-

2012
Grosjean 10 - 9 Kimi

2013
Kimi 10 - 6 Grosjean

Overall
Kimi 19 - 16 Grosjean

So first of all Kimi didn't out qualify Grosjean in both seasons, secondly does this really show Grosjean to be the weaker qualifier to the extent you seem to be suggesting?
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Zoue
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Re: Gutierrez being evaluated for '17 drive at Ferrari

Post by Zoue »

pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
kleefton wrote: At Silverstone grosjean got initially hit by ricciardo.
In Russia he lost the car while following a mclaren at really high speeds. It is usually impossible to catch a sliding car at those speeds. Otherwise senna would still be with us.
At Monza it appeared to me he got hit.

I guess people forget Grosjean was the second highest point scorer for the second half of 2013. People also forget that the stewards may have cost him a race win in Hungary that same year. When the guy has the car to do it he has delivered. That spa podium this year was another amazing achievement. That car had no business being near the podium.

How do I rate maldonado? Maldonado is inconsistent but he has shown flashes of brilliance and can produce stunning laps every now and then. But grosjean completely dominated him in raw pace on saturdays for 2 years!!! That says plenty imo.
That's clearly not true. His team mate has won races. in 2012 and 2013 and probably should have won more.

I agree about Hungary 2013 though. Absolute travesty of a decision. I still think of it as one of my favorite overtakes ever.

Grosjean can be good. I just feel that if he has proven anything it's that he is not quite good enough. Quali, he is very strong against Maldanado but was weaker than Kimi.
In qualifying he wasn't weaker against Kimi
Both seasons he was out qualified by Kimi.
You state that like it's an undisputable fact but upon checking I found this:-

2012
Grosjean 10 - 9 Kimi

2013
Kimi 10 - 6 Grosjean

Overall
Kimi 19 - 16 Grosjean

So first of all Kimi didn't out qualify Grosjean in both seasons, secondly does this really show Grosjean to be the weaker qualifier to the extent you seem to be suggesting?
I make it 10-10 in 2012 (there were 20 races) and 11-6 in Kimi's favour in 2013, making it 21-16 overall. While I agree that 2012 showed they were fairly evenly matched over one lap (although not on race pace), in 2013 Kimi did look quicker than Romain. In fact, IIRC, the only time Grosjean looked to have anywhere near the upper hand was when he got the LWB car (which suggests that, like Kimi, he can be a bit sensitive to car setup).

I think overall, with a couple of exceptions, Kimi looked comfortably quicker than Grosjean in their time together

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Re: Gutierrez being evaluated for '17 drive at Ferrari

Post by pokerman »

Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
That's clearly not true. His team mate has won races. in 2012 and 2013 and probably should have won more.

I agree about Hungary 2013 though. Absolute travesty of a decision. I still think of it as one of my favorite overtakes ever.

Grosjean can be good. I just feel that if he has proven anything it's that he is not quite good enough. Quali, he is very strong against Maldanado but was weaker than Kimi.
In qualifying he wasn't weaker against Kimi
Both seasons he was out qualified by Kimi.
You state that like it's an undisputable fact but upon checking I found this:-

2012
Grosjean 10 - 9 Kimi

2013
Kimi 10 - 6 Grosjean

Overall
Kimi 19 - 16 Grosjean

So first of all Kimi didn't out qualify Grosjean in both seasons, secondly does this really show Grosjean to be the weaker qualifier to the extent you seem to be suggesting?
I make it 10-10 in 2012 (there were 20 races) and 11-6 in Kimi's favour in 2013, making it 21-16 overall. While I agree that 2012 showed they were fairly evenly matched over one lap (although not on race pace), in 2013 Kimi did look quicker than Romain. In fact, IIRC, the only time Grosjean looked to have anywhere near the upper hand was when he got the LWB car (which suggests that, like Kimi, he can be a bit sensitive to car setup).

I think overall, with a couple of exceptions, Kimi looked comfortably quicker than Grosjean in their time together
Grosjean didn't race in Italy 2012 because he had a one race ban, I hope you don't think that counts in the favour of Kimi.

In 2013 Kimi was disqualified from one qualifying session because his car was not legal so I can't see how you can count that either.

We are talking about qualifying, so what you are saying is that apart from a couple of exceptions (actually 16 of them), Kimi was comfortable quicker.
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Re: Gutierrez being evaluated for '17 drive at Ferrari

Post by Zoue »

pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote: In qualifying he wasn't weaker against Kimi
Both seasons he was out qualified by Kimi.
You state that like it's an undisputable fact but upon checking I found this:-

2012
Grosjean 10 - 9 Kimi

2013
Kimi 10 - 6 Grosjean

Overall
Kimi 19 - 16 Grosjean

So first of all Kimi didn't out qualify Grosjean in both seasons, secondly does this really show Grosjean to be the weaker qualifier to the extent you seem to be suggesting?
I make it 10-10 in 2012 (there were 20 races) and 11-6 in Kimi's favour in 2013, making it 21-16 overall. While I agree that 2012 showed they were fairly evenly matched over one lap (although not on race pace), in 2013 Kimi did look quicker than Romain. In fact, IIRC, the only time Grosjean looked to have anywhere near the upper hand was when he got the LWB car (which suggests that, like Kimi, he can be a bit sensitive to car setup).

I think overall, with a couple of exceptions, Kimi looked comfortably quicker than Grosjean in their time together
Grosjean didn't race in Italy 2012 because he had a one race ban, I hope you don't think that counts in the favour of Kimi.

In 2013 Kimi was disqualified from one qualifying session because his car was not legal so I can't see how you can count that either.

We are talking about qualifying, so what you are saying is that apart from a couple of exceptions (actually 16 of them), Kimi was comfortable quicker.
Ah, sarcasm, your favourite tool.

Fair point on Italy, although you could have made it without being quite so snide. A simple reminder would have sufficed. As for 2013, correct me if I'm wrong but didn't Grosjean have an identical issue - failing the floor deflection test - in Hungary but for some reason was not disqualified? Seems a little harsh to accept the result when it's in Grosjean's favour but not when it's in Kimi's.

I was talking in general terms, which you would have seen from my post. I thought as we are making driver comparisons just focusing on qualifying is not always the best thing to do. After all, the post that started this little side-conversation also talked about race wins

pokerman
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Re: Gutierrez being evaluated for '17 drive at Ferrari

Post by pokerman »

Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:Both seasons he was out qualified by Kimi.
You state that like it's an undisputable fact but upon checking I found this:-

2012
Grosjean 10 - 9 Kimi

2013
Kimi 10 - 6 Grosjean

Overall
Kimi 19 - 16 Grosjean

So first of all Kimi didn't out qualify Grosjean in both seasons, secondly does this really show Grosjean to be the weaker qualifier to the extent you seem to be suggesting?
I make it 10-10 in 2012 (there were 20 races) and 11-6 in Kimi's favour in 2013, making it 21-16 overall. While I agree that 2012 showed they were fairly evenly matched over one lap (although not on race pace), in 2013 Kimi did look quicker than Romain. In fact, IIRC, the only time Grosjean looked to have anywhere near the upper hand was when he got the LWB car (which suggests that, like Kimi, he can be a bit sensitive to car setup).

I think overall, with a couple of exceptions, Kimi looked comfortably quicker than Grosjean in their time together
Grosjean didn't race in Italy 2012 because he had a one race ban, I hope you don't think that counts in the favour of Kimi.

In 2013 Kimi was disqualified from one qualifying session because his car was not legal so I can't see how you can count that either.

We are talking about qualifying, so what you are saying is that apart from a couple of exceptions (actually 16 of them), Kimi was comfortable quicker.
Ah, sarcasm, your favourite tool.

Fair point on Italy, although you could have made it without being quite so snide. A simple reminder would have sufficed. As for 2013, correct me if I'm wrong but didn't Grosjean have an identical issue - failing the floor deflection test - in Hungary but for some reason was not disqualified? Seems a little harsh to accept the result when it's in Grosjean's favour but not when it's in Kimi's.

I was talking in general terms, which you would have seen from my post. I thought as we are making driver comparisons just focusing on qualifying is not always the best thing to do. After all, the post that started this little side-conversation also talked about race wins
I actually didn't realise I was replying to a different poster, we were clearly talking only about qualifying, that sort of explains the change in tact.

It seems strange that if 2 cars are identically illegal one is disqualified but not the other, overall in my book 19-16 is fairly close over the 2 years, close enough not to be calling one driver weaker as if he was well beaten.
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Re: Gutierrez being evaluated for '17 drive at Ferrari

Post by kleefton »

As far as Kimi vs Grosjean, to me it seems that during most of their time together Raikonnen was better but towards the end the tide changed. In my opinion not only Kimi's level went down but Grosjean's went up. I have very little doubt that if you paired them together today who the winner would be.

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Re: Gutierrez being evaluated for '17 drive at Ferrari

Post by mikeyg123 »

kleefton wrote:As far as Kimi vs Grosjean, to me it seems that during most of their time together Raikonnen was better but towards the end the tide changed. In my opinion not only Kimi's level went down but Grosjean's went up. I have very little doubt that if you paired them together today who the winner would be.
Grosjean's level went up when compared to the poor first half of 2013 he had. He could beat Kimi after Kimi lost all motivation and had a back injury. I think if paired together again I would still fancy Kimi to just beat Grosjean over a season.

Zoue
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Re: Gutierrez being evaluated for '17 drive at Ferrari

Post by Zoue »

pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote: You state that like it's an undisputable fact but upon checking I found this:-

2012
Grosjean 10 - 9 Kimi

2013
Kimi 10 - 6 Grosjean

Overall
Kimi 19 - 16 Grosjean

So first of all Kimi didn't out qualify Grosjean in both seasons, secondly does this really show Grosjean to be the weaker qualifier to the extent you seem to be suggesting?
I make it 10-10 in 2012 (there were 20 races) and 11-6 in Kimi's favour in 2013, making it 21-16 overall. While I agree that 2012 showed they were fairly evenly matched over one lap (although not on race pace), in 2013 Kimi did look quicker than Romain. In fact, IIRC, the only time Grosjean looked to have anywhere near the upper hand was when he got the LWB car (which suggests that, like Kimi, he can be a bit sensitive to car setup).

I think overall, with a couple of exceptions, Kimi looked comfortably quicker than Grosjean in their time together
Grosjean didn't race in Italy 2012 because he had a one race ban, I hope you don't think that counts in the favour of Kimi.

In 2013 Kimi was disqualified from one qualifying session because his car was not legal so I can't see how you can count that either.

We are talking about qualifying, so what you are saying is that apart from a couple of exceptions (actually 16 of them), Kimi was comfortable quicker.
Ah, sarcasm, your favourite tool.

Fair point on Italy, although you could have made it without being quite so snide. A simple reminder would have sufficed. As for 2013, correct me if I'm wrong but didn't Grosjean have an identical issue - failing the floor deflection test - in Hungary but for some reason was not disqualified? Seems a little harsh to accept the result when it's in Grosjean's favour but not when it's in Kimi's.

I was talking in general terms, which you would have seen from my post. I thought as we are making driver comparisons just focusing on qualifying is not always the best thing to do. After all, the post that started this little side-conversation also talked about race wins
I actually didn't realise I was replying to a different poster, we were clearly talking only about qualifying, that sort of explains the change in tact.

It seems strange that if 2 cars are identically illegal one is disqualified but not the other, overall in my book 19-16 is fairly close over the 2 years, close enough not to be calling one driver weaker as if he was well beaten.
It's 20-16 and if you look year on year Grosjean's challenge faded in 2013. Second year was 11-6, which is a very comfortable gap. While it's not a disgrace by any means it does suggest that Kimi had his measure

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Re: Gutierrez being evaluated for '17 drive at Ferrari

Post by slide »

and theres me thinking the 2nd 2017 Ferrari seat has got max's name written all over it , or can I assume that seb is not massively keen and has made it clear "no thanks -too much speed ,with too much natural talent and he's so young he''ll be there forever".

but if you ran the Ferrari F1 team , I mean that's a lot of honey in a pot

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