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I sometimes do actually wonder, why should people who are fighting further back compromise their line hugely to let the leaders through? I understand that they shouldn't try to defend but I feel if the leaders happen to catch them somewhere where they will have to loose a lot of time to let them through, I think the leaders will just have to accept it. I feel sorry for people further down the grid when they are still fighting for the points but having to slow themselves down to let the leaders though. Obviously, if this is on a strait, this won't affect them but if on a corner, they will loose time allowing the leaders through. I know that here, people will say to me that this will affect the leaders race and yes, it will. But what is the reason that people lower down have to just loose more and more time once they start having to make awkward moves to allow the leaders though. To me, it would be much more interesting if the leaders just has to find a easier place to overtake.

I think that in the race in Brazil today Hamilton was just very unlucky with the position that Grosjean was in. Maybe Grosjean shouldn't have held Hamilton behind the way he did but he would have had to either go way offline or slow himself down quite a lot to allow Hamilton though.
I suppose rules are rules but this is just what my view is.
If there were people still fighting for points at the low end of the top 10 and the leader was about to lap them, then the leader could be affecting their race too - by getting in the way! I have seen this happen several times. It obviously will just be rules but I sometimes wish the leading drivers were a little less fussy about people still fighting for position when they are about to lap them.
In Mexico, Vettel didn't seem very happy when he was lapped by the Mercedes and he had very similar, if not better pace as he had just pitted. But he had to actually slow down and let them though. That does seem a little strange to me.

I also remember a time last year (don't remember the race) when Vettel had lapped Kobyashi but as Kobyashi was on much fresher tires, he overtook Vettel. Although I understand he probably shouldn't have done that because of the rules. Even so, if he was capable of doing that, then why shouldn't he?

All of this is just me thinking what it would be like without this rule of allowing drivers passed when they have been lapped. I doubt anything will change. I would like to see if anyone else agrees with anything I have said. Many will probably disagree.

One thing I think I need to understand better is the meaning of it. With lapped drivers, does it mean that they are actually not allowed to overtake the cars that have just lapped them? If the one of the cars that has just lapped them has some minor issue which affects the speed and allows the lapped car to catch up again, does it mean they can't overtake again?
if the lapped car does end up being able to go passed, will they only have to have blue flags again, if that car that is a lap ahead catches up again?

All of what I am saying may look very silly but I have never really understood exactly what the blue flag means. I would be interested if someone could give a good explanation of when it is used and what it means.

After re-watching the 2000 Belgian grand prix today, I had the idea that backmarkers should be forced to follow a white line up the centre of the track when being overtaken by the leaders

Well, when I started racing and until relatively recently, the blue flag was a warning to any driver that a faster car was catching you. It was just to let you know that you needed to be aware and take account of the speed differential when the faster car finally caught up or tried to pass. It never meant get out of the way.

If you watch the last few laps of the Monaco grand prix from 1992 you'll see Ayrton Senna getting the blue flags while he's leading the race!

They've turned blue flags into something they were never intended for and I think it sucks.

flyboy10 wrote:Well, when I started racing and until relatively recently, the blue flag was a warning to any driver that a faster car was catching you. It was just to let you know that you needed to be aware and take account of the speed differential when the faster car finally caught up or tried to pass. It never meant get out of the way.

If you watch the last few laps of the Monaco grand prix from 1992 you'll see Ayrton Senna getting the blue flags while he's leading the race!

They've turned blue flags into something they were never intended for and I think it sucks.

It seems to mean get out of the way now though. That example of Vettel in Mexico. Although he ended his race badly, when he came out of the pits just about to be lapped by the Mecedes, he would have had about the same pace. However, his team has to tell him so allow the leader though or else he would get a penalty. To me, that is just silly. Maybe the meaning of blue flag has changed.
The amount of times you hear Kimi say "get that car out of the way" or similar is very often.

If I remember correctly they were introduced under their current form in the mid 90s in light of accusations that were made that the Ferrari engined Saubers were purposely holding up Ferrari's competitors when being lapped and giving Ferrari an advantage.

The situation will always be unfair for someone, whether it's the leader being held up or the backmarker being lapped, and really it makes sense for the leader to take precedence in this instance. As much as I'd like to see them have to race backmarkers, there will always be controversy and doubts, warranted or not, that Toro Rosso helped Red Bull or Sauber helped Ferrari or Williams helped Mercedes or whatever, and races would potentially be ruined. The blue flags, for the most part, keep things fair for the leaders.

my radical opinion: rather than blue-flag the backmakers when the race leader is approaching them from behind, why not black-flag them instead?

2fast wrote:my radical opinion: rather than blue-flag the backmakers when the race leader is approaching them from behind, why not black-flag them instead?

If you're lapped, you're out? That would certainly eliminate the issue of waiting for lapped cars to un-lap themselves under a SC!

The rule now is that if you are blue flagged through 3 "zones" you are penalized. As Flyboy10 says, the intention was to inform the driver that a faster car is behind them. This has now transposed into "dive out of the way of the leaders and lose any rights to be racing".

A long time personal bug-bare of mine as good racers used to make an art out of passing backmarkers without losing time while creating an opportunity fo rthe driver to make more difference than the car.
The cars would still be penalized for blocking, so it was not a free pass to obstruct

http://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/verst ... nt-660725/

looks like Max got hammered by the blue flag near the end at Abu Dhabi Grand Prix.... yikes!

He was awarded one penalty point for that and two for the blue flags infraction, bringing his total to eight over a period of 12 months....

I have decided to bump this thread.

I still think these rules are pretty silly a lot of the time. In the Spanish GP today The first car that got lapped was Haryanto. Haryanto had only just pitted I think and the leaders had caught up just as he left the pit exit. He was actually pulling away slightly and yet he was getting blue flags. I seriously think this is ridiculous a lot of the time. He had really good strait line speed but eventually because of the rules, had to slow right down and let them though. Yes, I understand that he will have been holding them up just slightly in the end but I still think this rule doesn't make sense too much of the time. I noticed Palmer also was getting annoyed as he was as fast or faster than the leaders when he was getting lapped. He was also on a fresh set of tires. He said that he didn't even notice the leaders catching up and I can only assume that would be because he was pulling away.

I really do think that that lapped drivers should still be able to race just like they can if they are leading the race if they clearly have the race. If the leaders think they are faster, then they should simply overtake even if it does effect their time. It's not like this wouldn't be fair. The only thing that I don't think lapped drivers should do is defend and purposely make things awkward.

This is all my opinion but this was one of the races where the blue flags must have been really irritating for all of the lapped drivers that had new tires.

I would be interested if anyone else agrees or has any preferences or ideas of other things that may work better. Obviously, we can't change anything though.

TheGiantHogweed wrote:I have decided to bump this thread.

I still think these rules are pretty silly a lot of the time. In the Spanish GP today The first car that got lapped was Haryanto. Haryanto had only just pitted I think and the leaders had caught up just as he left the pit exit. He was actually pulling away slightly and yet he was getting blue flags. I seriously think this is ridiculous a lot of the time. He had really good strait line speed but eventually because of the rules, had to slow right down and let them though. Yes, I understand that he will have been holding them up just slightly in the end but I still think this rule doesn't make sense too much of the time. I noticed Palmer also was getting annoyed as he was as fast or faster than the leaders when he was getting lapped. He was also on a fresh set of tires. He said that he didn't even notice the leaders catching up and I can only assume that would be because he was pulling away.

I really do think that that lapped drivers should still be able to race just like they can if they are leading the race if they clearly have the race. If the leaders think they are faster, then they should simply overtake even if it does effect their time. It's not like this wouldn't be fair. The only thing that I don't think lapped drivers should do is defend and purposely make things awkward.

This is all my opinion but this was one of the races where the blue flags must have been really irritating for all of the lapped drivers that had new tires.

I would be interested if anyone else agrees or has any preferences or ideas of other things that may work better. Obviously, we can't change anything though.

If a car is that that much faster that it can lap another, it should be quite capable of passing. It could be as much of an advantage to the leader as to the chasing car, and it is what sorts the racers out from the sim drivers. It also costs the slowest cars several seconds a lap, and makes them even slower. If it was a problem for the teams, they would sort it out at design stage.

TheGiantHogweed wrote:I have decided to bump this thread.

I still think these rules are pretty silly a lot of the time. In the Spanish GP today The first car that got lapped was Haryanto. Haryanto had only just pitted I think and the leaders had caught up just as he left the pit exit. He was actually pulling away slightly and yet he was getting blue flags. I seriously think this is ridiculous a lot of the time. He had really good strait line speed but eventually because of the rules, had to slow right down and let them though. Yes, I understand that he will have been holding them up just slightly in the end but I still think this rule doesn't make sense too much of the time. I noticed Palmer also was getting annoyed as he was as fast or faster than the leaders when he was getting lapped. He was also on a fresh set of tires. He said that he didn't even notice the leaders catching up and I can only assume that would be because he was pulling away.

I really do think that that lapped drivers should still be able to race just like they can if they are leading the race if they clearly have the race. If the leaders think they are faster, then they should simply overtake even if it does effect their time. It's not like this wouldn't be fair. The only thing that I don't think lapped drivers should do is defend and purposely make things awkward.

This is all my opinion but this was one of the races where the blue flags must have been really irritating for all of the lapped drivers that had new tires.

I would be interested if anyone else agrees or has any preferences or ideas of other things that may work better. Obviously, we can't change anything though.

I assume it is for reasons of 'fairness' to the front runners.

I prefer the old days, where you could have Irvine letting Senna past, and when Senna didn't drive away fast enough, Irvine unlapped himself - resulting in getting punched by Senna after the race.
It's a test of skill to lap back markers. If your car is that much faster, you should be able to.

I believe that if you come up behind a car you are about to lap then machine guns should pop out of the nose cone. Kind of like DRS...you have to get within a second of the car infront and then its activated. It would definatly improve "the show" and there would be a constant supply of seats for new drivers.
I might email Bernie.

When you look at the argument that any leader would use, it is valid for their circumstance. And when you look at the reasons why back-markers should not move over, they too have reasons. So the bottom line is, who gets favored? Under the current rules, it is an unfair situation for back-markers. We can never have a win-win, but always a win-lose, depending on the use of the blue flag rule.

So for the drivers and teams, someone will always like the rule, and someone will always hate the rule. Let's call it a tie and think of the other group, the fans who want to see an entertaining and exciting show. If you are a devoted fan of any specific driver, then your opinion belongs with the driver's. But for everyone else, I vote in favor of really shaking things up, forcing the rules makers and car designers to build cars that can handle traffic and pass, and let's change the same old same old.

Let's force the drivers to re-learn the art of passing instead of getting a free pass. And maybe we can get rid of things like DRS, wonky tires, all that crap and put more on the drivers to actually prove they can handle adversity and traffic instead of just driving to a delta.

I want more excitement, I want less predictability.

' I supply you an engine, so let my car through immediately and race our competitor'. We dont want championships to be decided that way. I would say though that the rules should be tweaked not to have blue flags if the car in front is faster.

I'd be quite happy to remove the Blue Flag rule. By all means keep it to let drivers know the race leaders are coming up to lap them, but as others have pointed out this shouldn't be at the expense of their own race, so I'd get rid of the three corner rule. If a car is that fast that it can lap another, then it generally shouldn't have too much difficulty getting past them either. At the moment it can really ruin a backmarker's race and for some of the teams at the back that can very costly in terms of points and therefore revenue lost.

I think blue flags should be applied but we should have a system more akin to the 90s where basically a lapped driver wouldn't fight the lead driver into the corner. The lead driver had to pull alongside basically and the onus was on them to move off the racing line.

AravJ wrote:' I supply you an engine, so let my car through immediately and race our competitor'. We dont want championships to be decided that way. I would say though that the rules should be tweaked not to have blue flags if the car in front is faster.

This is a very good point. Can't imagine a lapped Toro Rosso putting up much resistance to the senior Red Bull team even without blue flags.

j man wrote:

AravJ wrote:' I supply you an engine, so let my car through immediately and race our competitor'. We dont want championships to be decided that way. I would say though that the rules should be tweaked not to have blue flags if the car in front is faster.

This is a very good point. Can't imagine a lapped Toro Rosso putting up much resistance to the senior Red Bull team even without blue flags.

Didn't Kvyat who was a lap behind pass Ricciardo?

Covalent wrote:

j man wrote:

AravJ wrote:' I supply you an engine, so let my car through immediately and race our competitor'. We dont want championships to be decided that way. I would say though that the rules should be tweaked not to have blue flags if the car in front is faster.

This is a very good point. Can't imagine a lapped Toro Rosso putting up much resistance to the senior Red Bull team even without blue flags.

Didn't Kvyat who was a lap behind pass Ricciardo?

Ricciardo had a puncture and was going slow

I think the blue flags are fair enough, but the car behind should be closer before they are initiated, at the moment it seems as soon as the leader gets within sight of the backmarker they are waving blue flags and the guy practically has to stop to let them catch up so as to avoid a penalty. Especially if the backamarker is on fresh tires and the leader is not.

angrypirate wrote:

Covalent wrote:

j man wrote:

AravJ wrote:' I supply you an engine, so let my car through immediately and race our competitor'. We dont want championships to be decided that way. I would say though that the rules should be tweaked not to have blue flags if the car in front is faster.

This is a very good point. Can't imagine a lapped Toro Rosso putting up much resistance to the senior Red Bull team even without blue flags.

Didn't Kvyat who was a lap behind pass Ricciardo?

Ricciardo had a puncture and was going slow

But Kvyat looked like he had the ability to pass anyway even though he was lapped. He had been keeping up for several laps. That is one of the reasons reason why I think these rules are silly. The leaders often affect the lapped drivers more than the lapped drivers get in the way of them. Kvyat looked to be stuck behind Ricciardo for quite some time.

ALESI wrote:I think the blue flags are fair enough, but the car behind should be closer before they are initiated, at the moment it seems as soon as the leader gets within sight of the backmarker they are waving blue flags and the guy practically has to stop to let them catch up so as to avoid a penalty. Especially if the backamarker is on fresh tires and the leader is not.

They could link the notification for a blue flag to the DRS trigger system. Once the lead car is 1s behind the backmarker they get a blue flag. It would stop the issues we saw yesterday when the JP was complaining that he could not see the car he was being blue flagged about.

If you catch the car after the DRS zone, you have to overtake without assistance, or wait most of a lap - the bolder you are the quicker you get past.

I just found it funny that for a lap or two a Manor car was being waved the blues and started pulling away from which ever Red Bull was leading at the time. It was sad to see that he had to pull over to let them pass, but I can also understand it.

The Blue Flag did not originally mean "Jump out of the way like a scalded cat". During a time before radios and iffy mirrors, it simply meant "There is a faster car closing fast on you". You were entitled and expected to keep your line, and simply be aware of the up-coming car.

I think it would be great for racing if back-markers held their line and it was the over-taking car's responsibility to get around you. It would certainly mix up the racing when the leaders stack-up behind a slower car and have to get past.

You want to mix up the front of the field? That will do it.

Someone jokingly suggested a white line for the lapped car to follow, you know thats not a bad idea.

Not a white line to follow, but a zone specifically for lapped cars. Similar to the pit exit line where the flagged car must drive, but not put themselves 2 seconds down by taking a detour and having a cup of tea while the car catches up and passes them.

I would like to see the old version of blue flags return on a personal level. That and removing the 3 feet of marbles off line and we may see good racing, but if it must be as it is, lets make it as little effect on the lapped cars as possible rather than destroy a race among lower cars, which many people claim we do not have anymore.

I started this thread a while ago and since we are now mentioning blue flags rather a lot, I though I may as well bump it again.

I still really am not a fan of blue flags at all. I don't see why the drivers in the weaker cars should have to loose more time than the drivers in the cars that are clearly a huge amount better. What Gutierrez did in the previous race may have been against the rules but I personally wouldn't have minded if what he did wasn't against the rules and no penalty was given. The only thing I don't think lapped drivers should do is defend. I don't think they should have to get out of the way. This will be a way of making things more entertaining as IMO, it gets really boring when a driver dominates the race and overtakes literally nobody. It really doesn't make the leaders race look very impressive at all. Anyway, the leaders should fine it FAR easier getting passed lapped drivers that the drivers they are racing against.

Although Gutierrez didn't try to let Hamilton though, I still am not sure why it took so long to get past him. From what I remember, Gutierrez wasn't defending and only was taking his usual racing line. Although Hamilton clearly lost time, I don't see why Gutierrez should loose any time either. The same should go for any other lapped driver to me. Just don't try to be awkward.


I have asked this before but are they any other ways people think the blue flag rules should get changed? Or is anyone actually happy with them as they help the leaders keep that massive gap to the drivers behind?

I don't mind the notion of blue flags but I think they shouldn't be shown until the lead driver is well under a second away from the guy he wants to lap and should more mean, don't fight for the position rather than move out the way.

I remember watching an Indycar race a couple of years ago, they don't use blue flags, Sato was leading the race about 3 seconds in front of Hunter-Reay when Sato came across Hunter-Reays teammate Andretti to lap him. Andretti defended like mad allowing his teammate to catch Sato and I believe he managed to pass him.

With reference to Guttierez he is a Ferrari junior driver, he held up Hamilton (Mercedes) in one race, and then Ricciardo (Red Bull) in another race, I wonder if he would do the same with a Ferrari driver?

Red Bull of course have 2 teams, a lot of possibilities there for influencing the outcome of races perhaps?

pokerman wrote:I remember watching an Indycar race a couple of years ago, they don't use blue flags, Sato was leading the race about 3 seconds in front of Hunter-Reay when Sato came across Hunter-Reays teammate Andretti to lap him. Andretti defended like mad allowing his teammate to catch Sato and I believe he managed to pass him.

With reference to Guttierez he is a Ferrari junior driver, he held up Hamilton (Mercedes) in one race, and then Ricciardo (Red Bull) in another race, I wonder if he would do the same with a Ferrari driver?

Red Bull of course have 2 teams, a lot of possibilities there for influencing the outcome of races perhaps?

Exactly why I support the use of blue flags, just in more limited situations.

mikeyg123 wrote:I don't mind the notion of blue flags but I think they shouldn't be shown until the lead driver is well under a second away from the guy he wants to lap and should more mean, don't fight for the position rather than move out the way.

I think you perhaps underestimate how hard it is to pass in F1 and this not having to move out of the way I think has ambiguous meanings, drivers would have different interpretations of how complaint they need to be and that might depend on who is doing the passing?

mikeyg123 wrote:

pokerman wrote:I remember watching an Indycar race a couple of years ago, they don't use blue flags, Sato was leading the race about 3 seconds in front of Hunter-Reay when Sato came across Hunter-Reays teammate Andretti to lap him. Andretti defended like mad allowing his teammate to catch Sato and I believe he managed to pass him.

With reference to Guttierez he is a Ferrari junior driver, he held up Hamilton (Mercedes) in one race, and then Ricciardo (Red Bull) in another race, I wonder if he would do the same with a Ferrari driver?

Red Bull of course have 2 teams, a lot of possibilities there for influencing the outcome of races perhaps?

Exactly why I support the use of blue flags, just in more limited situations.

I think you have hard and fast rules otherwise you just have confused rules.

One thing to remember with the blue flag rules is that a driver is allowed to see 3 blue flags so it's not just a case of a driver immediately having to jump out of the way after seeing the first blue flag, this can be almost like making the driver aware that they are close to being lapped, it could well be that drivers tend to see more than one blue flag before letting the car go past?

pokerman wrote:

mikeyg123 wrote:

pokerman wrote:I remember watching an Indycar race a couple of years ago, they don't use blue flags, Sato was leading the race about 3 seconds in front of Hunter-Reay when Sato came across Hunter-Reays teammate Andretti to lap him. Andretti defended like mad allowing his teammate to catch Sato and I believe he managed to pass him.

With reference to Guttierez he is a Ferrari junior driver, he held up Hamilton (Mercedes) in one race, and then Ricciardo (Red Bull) in another race, I wonder if he would do the same with a Ferrari driver?

Red Bull of course have 2 teams, a lot of possibilities there for influencing the outcome of races perhaps?

Exactly why I support the use of blue flags, just in more limited situations.

I think you have hard and fast rules otherwise you just have confused rules.

I have no problem with a rule saying you should allow the following driver to overtake once you have seen the blue flags. The onus should be on the following driver to get himself into an overtaking position though.

mikeyg123 wrote:

pokerman wrote:

mikeyg123 wrote:

pokerman wrote:I remember watching an Indycar race a couple of years ago, they don't use blue flags, Sato was leading the race about 3 seconds in front of Hunter-Reay when Sato came across Hunter-Reays teammate Andretti to lap him. Andretti defended like mad allowing his teammate to catch Sato and I believe he managed to pass him.

With reference to Guttierez he is a Ferrari junior driver, he held up Hamilton (Mercedes) in one race, and then Ricciardo (Red Bull) in another race, I wonder if he would do the same with a Ferrari driver?

Red Bull of course have 2 teams, a lot of possibilities there for influencing the outcome of races perhaps?

Exactly why I support the use of blue flags, just in more limited situations.

I think you have hard and fast rules otherwise you just have confused rules.

I have no problem with a rule saying you should allow the following driver to overtake once you have seen the blue flags. The onus should be on the following driver to get himself into an overtaking position though.

As in dive for the corner and hope the other car jumps out of the way?

pokerman wrote:

mikeyg123 wrote:

pokerman wrote:

mikeyg123 wrote:

pokerman wrote:I remember watching an Indycar race a couple of years ago, they don't use blue flags, Sato was leading the race about 3 seconds in front of Hunter-Reay when Sato came across Hunter-Reays teammate Andretti to lap him. Andretti defended like mad allowing his teammate to catch Sato and I believe he managed to pass him.

With reference to Guttierez he is a Ferrari junior driver, he held up Hamilton (Mercedes) in one race, and then Ricciardo (Red Bull) in another race, I wonder if he would do the same with a Ferrari driver?

Red Bull of course have 2 teams, a lot of possibilities there for influencing the outcome of races perhaps?

Exactly why I support the use of blue flags, just in more limited situations.

I think you have hard and fast rules otherwise you just have confused rules.

I have no problem with a rule saying you should allow the following driver to overtake once you have seen the blue flags. The onus should be on the following driver to get himself into an overtaking position though.

As in dive for the corner and hope the other car jumps out of the way?

A stupid driver might. I'm more thinking pull out on the straight so all the lapped driver needs to do is brake early to allow the lapping driver through.

mikeyg123 wrote:

pokerman wrote:

mikeyg123 wrote:

pokerman wrote:

mikeyg123 wrote: Exactly why I support the use of blue flags, just in more limited situations.

I think you have hard and fast rules otherwise you just have confused rules.

I have no problem with a rule saying you should allow the following driver to overtake once you have seen the blue flags. The onus should be on the following driver to get himself into an overtaking position though.

As in dive for the corner and hope the other car jumps out of the way?

A stupid driver might. I'm more thinking pull out on the straight so all the lapped driver needs to do is brake early to allow the lapping driver through.

What constitutes a straight, one long enough to be designated a DRS zone?

pokerman wrote: What constitutes a straight, one long enough to be designated a DRS zone?

A straight is something without corners. I don't see why length is important as the following corner.

I'm also not saying that should be the only way. Just suggesting it as a good way.

mikeyg123 wrote:

pokerman wrote: What constitutes a straight, one long enough to be designated a DRS zone?

A straight is something without corners. I don't see why length is important as the following corner.

I'm also not saying that should be the only way. Just suggesting it as a good way.

So there are plenty of straights on a track were a driver can brake early in order for himself to be lapped and the overtaking driver doesn't have to wait a complete lap before passing on the main straight?

pokerman wrote:

mikeyg123 wrote:

pokerman wrote: What constitutes a straight, one long enough to be designated a DRS zone?

A straight is something without corners. I don't see why length is important as the following corner.

I'm also not saying that should be the only way. Just suggesting it as a good way.

So there are plenty of straights on a track were a driver can brake early in order for himself to be lapped and the overtaking driver doesn't have to wait a complete lap before passing on the main straight?

Yes?