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PostPosted: Fri Jan 09, 2015 11:24 am 
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Reading today that Vettel has slagged "Formula E" as cheesy I have one more reason to think how unjust it is that he is at the moment one of the 4 most successful F1 drivers of all time.
He didn't like the turbo powered cars
He was beaten by his less experienced teammate
He left Red Bull for a "new challenge" no not because he was afraid to get beaten again by his teammate

As it stands he looks to me the spoiled kid that won 4 titles in the best car of the field against a not so strong teammate who strangely suffered most of the car problems.

I think Formula E with electrical engines is the future of motorsport anyway. And cheesy it isn't since the electrical engine was actually in existence in the late 19th century but became unpopular quickly for the longer lasting and more effective fuel burning engines.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 09, 2015 11:48 am 
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Amon wrote:
Reading today that Vettel has slagged "Formula E" as cheesy I have one more reason to think how unjust it is that he is at the moment one of the 4 most successful F1 drivers of all time.
He didn't like the turbo powered cars
He was beaten by his less experienced teammate
He left Red Bull for a "new challenge" no not because he was afraid to get beaten again by his teammate

As it stands he looks to me the spoiled kid that won 4 titles in the best car of the field against a not so strong teammate who strangely suffered most of the car problems.

I think Formula E with electrical engines is the future of motorsport anyway. And cheesy it isn't since the electrical engine was actually in existence in the late 19th century but became unpopular quickly for the longer lasting and more effective fuel burning engines.


I don't agree that Formula E is cheesy, but I fail to see why Vettel's opinion in this regard should have anything to do with his ability (perceived or real).

Regarding the part I highlighted, Webber was very highly regarded before Vettel joined RB, and he was favourite for the 2010 WDC, he just bottled it at the end. Also with regard to him having more car problems than Vettel, that has been debunked in other threads. he might have had marginally more problems, but not in any way statistically significant over the course of 5 seasons. All your other points relate to last season, which could have been an anomaly or not, we will see.

If you want to make the argument that Vettel is overrated, there are many many existing threads on which to do so, which already contain many valid arguments (together with many total bollocks arguments but hey, that's the forum :-P ) in this regard. In any case, Vettel's 'over-ratedness' is now certainly less since his perceived rating HAS plummeted after 2014 season.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 09, 2015 11:58 am 
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I can see this attracting some 'robust' responses.

I'll never criticise a driver for voicing an opinion. Whether I agree or not with his view of FE (I don't), anything any driver says that deviates from the corporate, rehearsed, anodyne nothings they've been drilled with is alright by me.

As for whether he's overrated, I don't think we'll know until he retires. It's kind of a moot point anyway. He's clearly overrated by those who think he's the best for years, he's clearly underrated by those who think he's rubbish. For me he's perhaps had more success than his raw talent might deserve, but it's a subjective and complicated equation. If he dominates again at Ferrari under different regs maybe he'll deserve to be thought of as special. Right now I don't think he's close to Alonso or Hamilton because my reading is he can be as competitive as them only under certain circumstances.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 09, 2015 12:06 pm 
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I don't think one poor season after six very good ones or his opinion on FE make him in any way "overrated" Judging his whole career so far I think most people would put him in the top 25 of all time but outside the top 8. That would be about right.

And I am glad Vettel is one of the few drivers who isn't afraid to give an unpopular opinion. I wish more were like him.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 09, 2015 12:31 pm 
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I always thought Mika Hakkinen was the most over rated F1 Champ.

Similar situation to Vettel, but there seems to be a lot of people who don't rate Vettel, whereas Hakkinen seems to be almost universally acclaimed as being one the sports' best.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 09, 2015 1:04 pm 
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Amon wrote:
Reading today that Vettel has slagged "Formula E" as cheesy I have one more reason to think how unjust it is that he is at the moment one of the 4 most successful F1 drivers of all time.
He didn't like the turbo powered cars
He was beaten by his less experienced teammate
He left Red Bull for a "new challenge" no not because he was afraid to get beaten again by his teammate

As it stands he looks to me the spoiled kid that won 4 titles in the best car of the field against a not so strong teammate who strangely suffered most of the car problems.

I think Formula E with electrical engines is the future of motorsport anyway. And cheesy it isn't since the electrical engine was actually in existence in the late 19th century but became unpopular quickly for the longer lasting and more effective fuel burning engines.

regarding your points:
vettel doesn't like the V6 Turbo ERS combination (not all turbo engines), stating they don't feel and sound as brutal as the V10's did... the engine he first drove an F1 car with and wanted to get back... looking at the 270bhp, 220kph formula e cars, the term "cheesy" relates perfectly well with his apperent personal preferences... if compared to ANY f1 car, they are neither powerful nor sound well ... actually, at this very moment, this series would be somewhere around formula renault 2.0 specs, albeit the cars are bigger, or the FIA F3 championship...

at a time when half the motorsport world argues that Max Verstappen is too young and too inexperienced for F1 after one season in F3, why would anyone expect F1 drivers at their peak to praise Formula E, that offers specs comparable to lower entry level formula series?

yes, of course, you need to start at some point, but i have a feeling that lots of errors have been made in the past 2 years... Formula E has been touted as the new, clean, shiny, upcoming challenger of F1 that will iron out all of its enemies shortcomings and better it in any other aspect - something Formula E could possibly manage in like 15 years, but not in the near future and not with the available budgets... It's also been stuffed with lots of ex-F1 pilots which gives it a taste of being a championship of those that aren't worthy enough for the real deal... maybe, just maybe, during the time that series was going to need to evolve out of its infancy, it should have been a low-tier series like F3 or Formula Renault 2.0, with youngsters racing each other hard... also racing those cars on real race tracks would have been a nice addition, instead they are going on streets that consist of 90° corners followed by long straights ... i know that might be for energy recovery reasons but it just isn't the kind of formula race track you'd want...

vettel in this case was just being honest... he said he didn't think formula e was to be the future of racing, because it lacked screaming engines and pure speed. rosberg was a bit more diplomatic. he said it was an interesting concept and it will need time to see how it goes... hamilton said he agreed with both views...

i think some guy with wrinkles and a red cap ... a so called niki lauda has been a lot more outspoken about recent developments and incidents and afaik that has had an effect on how people judge his character but he still is seen as one of F1 great drivers...

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 09, 2015 1:11 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
I don't think one poor season after six very good ones or his opinion on FE make him in any way "overrated" Judging his whole career so far I think most people would put him in the top 25 of all time but outside the top 8. That would be about right.

The thing is that Vettel hasn't had a poor season, he's had a wretched season. People use Hamilton's 2011 as a stick to hit him with but that contest was narrow as Button triumphed 9-7 with only +43 points difference. Vettel's 2014 was a massacre by comparison trailing 3-11 and -71 points to Ricciardo.

Vettel is placed about right all things considered. Behind Alonso, Hamilton and probably Ricciardo and ahead of Button and Raikkonen.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 09, 2015 1:18 pm 
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I agree that I don't see the relevance of Vettel's titles or performance when giving his verdict on Formula E. And why should he have to say he likes it if he doesn't?

I'm a bit confused with this thread. The title suggests it's a discussion on Vettel's performances and whether he's a worthy Champion, whereas the subject matter seems to focus on whether he's in a position to give his opinion on Formula E. Is the thread about Vettel or Formula E?


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 09, 2015 1:23 pm 
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Warnzee wrote:
I always thought Mika Hakkinen was the most over rated F1 Champ.

Similar situation to Vettel, but there seems to be a lot of people who don't rate Vettel, whereas Hakkinen seems to be almost universally acclaimed as being one the sports' best.

I think with Hakkinen he was never thought as the best because Schumacher was, more like best of the rest so he was never really overrated but then again still respected as being a good champion.

With Vettel its different because he was rated as being the best so you're more in the firing line to be shot down.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 09, 2015 1:26 pm 
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Debunking another formula as 'cheesy' may be infer to some that the person stating this does not bear the hallmarks of a top-class champion, but in what context does he say it? I like formula e but would argue that the fan-boost is a bit cheesy. Perhaps Seb has the same opinion: good concept, with one or two aspects that could be improved / ironed out.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 09, 2015 1:30 pm 
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egnat69 wrote:
Amon wrote:
Reading today that Vettel has slagged "Formula E" as cheesy I have one more reason to think how unjust it is that he is at the moment one of the 4 most successful F1 drivers of all time.
He didn't like the turbo powered cars
He was beaten by his less experienced teammate
He left Red Bull for a "new challenge" no not because he was afraid to get beaten again by his teammate

As it stands he looks to me the spoiled kid that won 4 titles in the best car of the field against a not so strong teammate who strangely suffered most of the car problems.

I think Formula E with electrical engines is the future of motorsport anyway. And cheesy it isn't since the electrical engine was actually in existence in the late 19th century but became unpopular quickly for the longer lasting and more effective fuel burning engines.

regarding your points:
vettel doesn't like the V6 Turbo ERS combination (not all turbo engines), stating they don't feel and sound as brutal as the V10's did... the engine he first drove an F1 car with and wanted to get back... looking at the 270bhp, 220kph formula e cars, the term "cheesy" relates perfectly well with his apperent personal preferences... if compared to ANY f1 car, they are neither powerful nor sound well ... actually, at this very moment, this series would be somewhere around formula renault 2.0 specs, albeit the cars are bigger, or the FIA F3 championship...

at a time when half the motorsport world argues that Max Verstappen is too young and too inexperienced for F1 after one season in F3, why would anyone expect F1 drivers at their peak to praise Formula E, that offers specs comparable to lower entry level formula series?

yes, of course, you need to start at some point, but i have a feeling that lots of errors have been made in the past 2 years... Formula E has been touted as the new, clean, shiny, upcoming challenger of F1 that will iron out all of its enemies shortcomings and better it in any other aspect - something Formula E could possibly manage in like 15 years, but not in the near future and not with the available budgets... It's also been stuffed with lots of ex-F1 pilots which gives it a taste of being a championship of those that aren't worthy enough for the real deal... maybe, just maybe, during the time that series was going to need to evolve out of its infancy, it should have been a low-tier series like F3 or Formula Renault 2.0, with youngsters racing each other hard... also racing those cars on real race tracks would have been a nice addition, instead they are going on streets that consist of 90° corners followed by long straights ... i know that might be for energy recovery reasons but it just isn't the kind of formula race track you'd want...

vettel in this case was just being honest... he said he didn't think formula e was to be the future of racing, because it lacked screaming engines and pure speed. rosberg was a bit more diplomatic. he said it was an interesting concept and it will need time to see how it goes... hamilton said he agreed with both views...

i think some guy with wrinkles and a red cap ... a so called niki lauda has been a lot more outspoken about recent developments and incidents and afaik that has had an effect on how people judge his character but he still is seen as one of F1 great drivers...

I don't understand why Vettel would be comparing the V6 Hybrid Turbos with the V10's when it was the V8's that they replaced?

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 09, 2015 1:47 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
I don't understand why Vettel would be comparing the V6 Hybrid Turbos with the V10's when it was the V8's that they replaced?

because, when he was asked about the V6's he stated that he actually misses the brutality of the V10's... they used to scare him when he first testdrove an F1 car... he would have liked a step back into that direction with the new engines, instead they seem to be quite on par with the V8's (the V10's used to be in the 950bhp area at the end i think)...

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 09, 2015 2:00 pm 
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Overrated, by some, yes. His 4 championships certainly overstate his ability. I wouldn't be confident he would be better than a driver like Rosberg.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 09, 2015 2:02 pm 
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egnat69 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
I don't understand why Vettel would be comparing the V6 Hybrid Turbos with the V10's when it was the V8's that they replaced?

because, when he was asked about the V6's he stated that he actually misses the brutality of the V10's... they used to scare him when he first testdrove an F1 car... he would have liked a step back into that direction with the new engines, instead they seem to be quite on par with the V8's (the V10's used to be in the 950bhp area at the end i think)...

Fair enough but regarding the V8's they are not even on par with the V6 Turbo Hybrids, why do we not hear complaints about the gutless performance of the V8's or is it just a case of well they pass the test of are they loud enough so they will do?

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 09, 2015 2:03 pm 
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As others have said, his opinion on FE means nothing to do with how he's rated as a racecar driver. The title of the thread should be "Another Reason I Don't Like Vettel."

Since I hadn't heard this quote before I had to look it up and found that he said this back in July before it had gotten started so for all we know his opinion might have changed by now. Either way it doesn't reflect or effect his talents on the track so there's no bearing on his "ratedness."

I'm a big fan of the series but the Fanboost is cheesy, and I can see where the swapping cars in the middle of the race would seem that way to people who aren't fans.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 09, 2015 2:04 pm 
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Balibari wrote:
I can see this attracting some 'robust' responses.

I'll never criticise a driver for voicing an opinion. Whether I agree or not with his view of FE (I don't), anything any driver says that deviates from the corporate, rehearsed, anodyne nothings they've been drilled with is alright by me.

As for whether he's overrated, I don't think we'll know until he retires. It's kind of a moot point anyway. He's clearly overrated by those who think he's the best for years, he's clearly underrated by those who think he's rubbish. For me he's perhaps had more success than his raw talent might deserve, but it's a subjective and complicated equation. If he dominates again at Ferrari under different regs maybe he'll deserve to be thought of as special. Right now I don't think he's close to Alonso or Hamilton because my reading is he can be as competitive as them only under certain circumstances.

:thumbup: :thumbup: Major bonus points for using anodyne on an internet forum> :thumbup: :thumbup:

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 09, 2015 2:10 pm 
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RaggedMan wrote:
As others have said, his opinion on FE means nothing to do with how he's rated as a racecar driver. The title of the thread should be "Another Reason I Don't Like Vettel."

Since I hadn't heard this quote before I had to look it up and found that he said this back in July before it had gotten started so for all we know his opinion might have changed by now. Either way it doesn't reflect or effect his talents on the track so there's no bearing on his "ratedness."

I'm a big fan of the series but the Fanboost is cheesy, and I can see where the swapping cars in the middle of the race would seem that way to people who aren't fans.

Thats a fair summary.

You are often faced with the term 'not a valid champion'. Which he is, clearly a valid champion. But that doesn't mean he's one of the absolute top guys on the grid.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 09, 2015 2:15 pm 
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RaggedMan wrote:
As others have said, his opinion on FE means nothing to do with how he's rated as a racecar driver. The title of the thread should be "Another Reason I Don't Like Vettel."

Since I hadn't heard this quote before I had to look it up and found that he said this back in July before it had gotten started so for all we know his opinion might have changed by now. Either way it doesn't reflect or effect his talents on the track so there's no bearing on his "ratedness."

I'm a big fan of the series but the Fanboost is cheesy, and I can see where the swapping cars in the middle of the race would seem that way to people who aren't fans.

Apparently they are developing technology were the cars can be fully charged during pit stops so they will have no more need of changing cars, that would be a big step forward.

I think when put into a racing environment new technologies can be advanced that much quicker so it will be interesting to see how the series advances over the coming years.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 09, 2015 2:23 pm 
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RaggedMan wrote:
Balibari wrote:
I can see this attracting some 'robust' responses.

I'll never criticise a driver for voicing an opinion. Whether I agree or not with his view of FE (I don't), anything any driver says that deviates from the corporate, rehearsed, anodyne nothings they've been drilled with is alright by me.

As for whether he's overrated, I don't think we'll know until he retires. It's kind of a moot point anyway. He's clearly overrated by those who think he's the best for years, he's clearly underrated by those who think he's rubbish. For me he's perhaps had more success than his raw talent might deserve, but it's a subjective and complicated equation. If he dominates again at Ferrari under different regs maybe he'll deserve to be thought of as special. Right now I don't think he's close to Alonso or Hamilton because my reading is he can be as competitive as them only under certain circumstances.

:thumbup: :thumbup: Major bonus points for using anodyne on an internet forum> :thumbup: :thumbup:


I agree as well.

I find Amon's post peculiar, he is usually one of the most level-headed posters here, it's not like him to start slagging threads. Vettel's comment was made back in July, why having this thread now?

Plus Vettel didn't have the best car for all of his 4 WDC's, nor did he have less problems than Webber. And if he is the most over-rated ever, then what does that make Senna? He only won his WDC's with the best car of the field (by miles) by that kind of thinking...


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 09, 2015 2:23 pm 
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Given the number of WDC's.... probably yes. Or would you say that Vettel is better than Senna or twice as good as the likes of Alonso or Clark?


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 09, 2015 2:37 pm 
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SchumieRules wrote:
Plus Vettel didn't have the best car for all of his 4 WDC's, nor did he have less problems than Webber. And if he is the most over-rated ever, then what does that make Senna? He only won his WDC's with the best car of the field (by miles) by that kind of thinking...


The only car Vettel had that wasn't convincingly the best was the RB8 and its still quite arguably that it was the best overall car that season.

The RB6, RB7 and RB9 all had a huge pace advantage.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 09, 2015 2:41 pm 
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Amon wrote:
Reading today that Vettel has slagged "Formula E" as cheesy I have one more reason to think how unjust it is that he is at the moment one of the 4 most successful F1 drivers of all time.
He didn't like the turbo powered cars
He was beaten by his less experienced teammate
He left Red Bull for a "new challenge" no not because he was afraid to get beaten again by his teammate

As it stands he looks to me the spoiled kid that won 4 titles in the best car of the field against a not so strong teammate who strangely suffered most of the car problems.

I think Formula E with electrical engines is the future of motorsport anyway. And cheesy it isn't since the electrical engine was actually in existence in the late 19th century but became unpopular quickly for the longer lasting and more effective fuel burning engines.


SIGH!!!!!!!!!


As much as I enjoy the whole Over rated blah blah topics against Vettel. It's gone on far too much, constant, all season, since day 1 when Ric was doing a better job.

Vettel simply expressed his opinion on something which frankly may not take off. It's done OKAY but to say it will still be here in 5 years time is impossible to know for certain.

Really didn't need another Vettel bashing thread because there is already plenty and has been plenty this whole season. Oops sorry, last season ;)


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 09, 2015 2:41 pm 
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SchumieRules wrote:
RaggedMan wrote:
Balibari wrote:
I can see this attracting some 'robust' responses.

I'll never criticise a driver for voicing an opinion. Whether I agree or not with his view of FE (I don't), anything any driver says that deviates from the corporate, rehearsed, anodyne nothings they've been drilled with is alright by me.

As for whether he's overrated, I don't think we'll know until he retires. It's kind of a moot point anyway. He's clearly overrated by those who think he's the best for years, he's clearly underrated by those who think he's rubbish. For me he's perhaps had more success than his raw talent might deserve, but it's a subjective and complicated equation. If he dominates again at Ferrari under different regs maybe he'll deserve to be thought of as special. Right now I don't think he's close to Alonso or Hamilton because my reading is he can be as competitive as them only under certain circumstances.

:thumbup: :thumbup: Major bonus points for using anodyne on an internet forum> :thumbup: :thumbup:


I agree as well.

I find Amon's post peculiar, he is usually one of the most level-headed posters here, it's not like him to start slagging threads. Vettel's comment was made back in July, why having this thread now?

Plus Vettel didn't have the best car for all of his 4 WDC's, nor did he have less problems than Webber. And if he is the most over-rated ever, then what does that make Senna? He only won his WDC's with the best car of the field (by miles) by that kind of thinking...

Senna never took a serious beating from a teammate, he also beat a great champion in the same car

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 09, 2015 2:48 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
SchumieRules wrote:
RaggedMan wrote:
Balibari wrote:
I can see this attracting some 'robust' responses.

I'll never criticise a driver for voicing an opinion. Whether I agree or not with his view of FE (I don't), anything any driver says that deviates from the corporate, rehearsed, anodyne nothings they've been drilled with is alright by me.

As for whether he's overrated, I don't think we'll know until he retires. It's kind of a moot point anyway. He's clearly overrated by those who think he's the best for years, he's clearly underrated by those who think he's rubbish. For me he's perhaps had more success than his raw talent might deserve, but it's a subjective and complicated equation. If he dominates again at Ferrari under different regs maybe he'll deserve to be thought of as special. Right now I don't think he's close to Alonso or Hamilton because my reading is he can be as competitive as them only under certain circumstances.

:thumbup: :thumbup: Major bonus points for using anodyne on an internet forum> :thumbup: :thumbup:


I agree as well.

I find Amon's post peculiar, he is usually one of the most level-headed posters here, it's not like him to start slagging threads. Vettel's comment was made back in July, why having this thread now?

Plus Vettel didn't have the best car for all of his 4 WDC's, nor did he have less problems than Webber. And if he is the most over-rated ever, then what does that make Senna? He only won his WDC's with the best car of the field (by miles) by that kind of thinking...

Senna never took a serious beating from a teammate, he also beat a great champion in the same car


Very true, but not my point


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 09, 2015 2:57 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
I agree that I don't see the relevance of Vettel's titles or performance when giving his verdict on Formula E. And why should he have to say he likes it if he doesn't?

I'm a bit confused with this thread. The title suggests it's a discussion on Vettel's performances and whether he's a worthy Champion, whereas the subject matter seems to focus on whether he's in a position to give his opinion on Formula E. Is the thread about Vettel or Formula E?


Same confusion here.

Anyway, I have no problem with someone disliking something, even F1. If s/he has valid reasons for it, why not?

On the subject of overrated - I'm not sure how he's rated to be honest. There are quite a lot of people who think he's a GOAT candidate but on the other hand there are a lot of people like me who think he's just a solid driver who lucked into incredible cars for 4 (even 5) consecutive years. I don't see him on the same level of Alonso or Hamilton, not even close. Then again, after 2014 a lot more people seem to share a similar viewpoint to me so maybe he's not overrated currently but rather properly rated (as a fast/solid driver but not incredible).

If you meant it by titles won:talent ratio then yeah. I'd say that 4 WDC don't match up with his abilities.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 09, 2015 2:57 pm 
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RaggedMan wrote:
As others have said, his opinion on FE means nothing to do with how he's rated as a racecar driver. The title of the thread should be "Another Reason I Don't Like Vettel."

Since I hadn't heard this quote before I had to look it up and found that he said this back in July before it had gotten started so for all we know his opinion might have changed by now. Either way it doesn't reflect or effect his talents on the track so there's no bearing on his "ratedness."

I'm a big fan of the series but the Fanboost is cheesy, and I can see where the swapping cars in the middle of the race would seem that way to people who aren't fans.

:thumbup: :thumbup:

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 09, 2015 3:10 pm 
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SchumieRules wrote:
pokerman wrote:
SchumieRules wrote:
RaggedMan wrote:
Balibari wrote:
I can see this attracting some 'robust' responses.

I'll never criticise a driver for voicing an opinion. Whether I agree or not with his view of FE (I don't), anything any driver says that deviates from the corporate, rehearsed, anodyne nothings they've been drilled with is alright by me.

As for whether he's overrated, I don't think we'll know until he retires. It's kind of a moot point anyway. He's clearly overrated by those who think he's the best for years, he's clearly underrated by those who think he's rubbish. For me he's perhaps had more success than his raw talent might deserve, but it's a subjective and complicated equation. If he dominates again at Ferrari under different regs maybe he'll deserve to be thought of as special. Right now I don't think he's close to Alonso or Hamilton because my reading is he can be as competitive as them only under certain circumstances.

:thumbup: :thumbup: Major bonus points for using anodyne on an internet forum> :thumbup: :thumbup:


I agree as well.

I find Amon's post peculiar, he is usually one of the most level-headed posters here, it's not like him to start slagging threads. Vettel's comment was made back in July, why having this thread now?

Plus Vettel didn't have the best car for all of his 4 WDC's, nor did he have less problems than Webber. And if he is the most over-rated ever, then what does that make Senna? He only won his WDC's with the best car of the field (by miles) by that kind of thinking...

Senna never took a serious beating from a teammate, he also beat a great champion in the same car


Very true, but not my point

The comparison is still not valid

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 09, 2015 3:13 pm 
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VDV23 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
I agree that I don't see the relevance of Vettel's titles or performance when giving his verdict on Formula E. And why should he have to say he likes it if he doesn't?

I'm a bit confused with this thread. The title suggests it's a discussion on Vettel's performances and whether he's a worthy Champion, whereas the subject matter seems to focus on whether he's in a position to give his opinion on Formula E. Is the thread about Vettel or Formula E?


Same confusion here.

Anyway, I have no problem with someone disliking something, even F1. If s/he has valid reasons for it, why not?

On the subject of overrated - I'm not sure how he's rated to be honest. There are quite a lot of people who think he's a GOAT candidate but on the other hand there are a lot of people like me who think he's just a solid driver who lucked into incredible cars for 4 (even 5) consecutive years. I don't see him on the same level of Alonso or Hamilton, not even close. Then again, after 2014 a lot more people seem to share a similar viewpoint to me so maybe he's not overrated currently but rather properly rated (as a fast/solid driver but not incredible).

If you meant it by titles won:talent ratio then yeah. I'd say that 4 WDC don't match up with his abilities.

I think overrated relates to Vettel pre-2014

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 09, 2015 3:20 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
SchumieRules wrote:
pokerman wrote:
SchumieRules wrote:
I agree as well.

I find Amon's post peculiar, he is usually one of the most level-headed posters here, it's not like him to start slagging threads. Vettel's comment was made back in July, why having this thread now?

Plus Vettel didn't have the best car for all of his 4 WDC's, nor did he have less problems than Webber. And if he is the most over-rated ever, then what does that make Senna? He only won his WDC's with the best car of the field (by miles) by that kind of thinking...

Senna never took a serious beating from a teammate, he also beat a great champion in the same car


Very true, but not my point

The comparison is still not valid


Why? He says that he is over-rated because he won all his WDC's with the best car. It's the same for pretty much all WDC winners, they all had the best or second best cars, with maybe a handful of exceptions. The only difference was the not so strong co-driver, although he only won 1 WDC next to Prost, the other two were with Berger as a team mate...


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 09, 2015 3:25 pm 
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Warnzee wrote:
I always thought Mika Hakkinen was the most over rated F1 Champ.

Similar situation to Vettel, but there seems to be a lot of people who don't rate Vettel, whereas Hakkinen seems to be almost universally acclaimed as being one the sports' best.


Both are very overrated. Their reputations are built on their results in Newey rocketships


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 09, 2015 3:50 pm 
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The response from Formula E's Alejandro Agag made me smile:

"We respect what Vettel thinks... but I also respect what Alain Prost thinks."

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 09, 2015 4:00 pm 
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Balibari wrote:
The response from Formula E's Alejandro Agag made me smile:

"We respect what Vettel thinks... but I also respect what Alain Prost thinks."

Good response, but to be fair what else would Prost say when his son is driving Formula E car? I personally find Formula E not very spectacular. Maybe once the development of cars will be allowed it will get better.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 09, 2015 4:03 pm 
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SchumieRules wrote:
pokerman wrote:
SchumieRules wrote:
pokerman wrote:
SchumieRules wrote:
I agree as well.

I find Amon's post peculiar, he is usually one of the most level-headed posters here, it's not like him to start slagging threads. Vettel's comment was made back in July, why having this thread now?

Plus Vettel didn't have the best car for all of his 4 WDC's, nor did he have less problems than Webber. And if he is the most over-rated ever, then what does that make Senna? He only won his WDC's with the best car of the field (by miles) by that kind of thinking...

Senna never took a serious beating from a teammate, he also beat a great champion in the same car


Very true, but not my point

The comparison is still not valid


Why? He says that he is over-rated because he won all his WDC's with the best car. It's the same for pretty much all WDC winners, they all had the best or second best cars, with maybe a handful of exceptions. The only difference was the not so strong co-driver, although he only won 1 WDC next to Prost, the other two were with Berger as a team mate...

Yes the association with Prost is king which would be akin to pairing up Vettel with Alonso in today's terms, plus Senna never got his comeuppance against a younger teammate. He did give his various reasons for his views on Vettel being overrated, now whether they be wrong or right, comparison with Senna certainly doesn't prove he is wrong.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 09, 2015 4:05 pm 
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davidheath461 wrote:
Warnzee wrote:
I always thought Mika Hakkinen was the most over rated F1 Champ.

Similar situation to Vettel, but there seems to be a lot of people who don't rate Vettel, whereas Hakkinen seems to be almost universally acclaimed as being one the sports' best.


Both are very overrated. Their reputations are built on their results in Newey rocketships

How high was Hakkinen really rated, the second best driver at the time to Schumacher, who do you think was better?

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 09, 2015 4:15 pm 
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How can a multiple WC be overrated? I mean really. Hamilton had huge ratings when he came up and silenced any doubters with a WC. (I am not a Hamilton fan). I would say overrated would apply to someone who had much hype around him and never made it to the top a WC.

from my perspective people like Weber, Montoya, come to mind right off the top of my head.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 09, 2015 4:23 pm 
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AstoriaisBACK wrote:
How can a multiple WC be overrated? I mean really. Hamilton had huge ratings when he came up and silenced any doubters with a WC. (I am not a Hamilton fan). I would say overrated would apply to someone who had much hype around him and never made it to the top a WC.

from my perspective people like Weber, Montoya, come to mind right off the top of my head.

Overrated in terms of being rated as the best driver in F1 and one of the all time greats

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 09, 2015 4:26 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
SchumieRules wrote:
pokerman wrote:
SchumieRules wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Senna never took a serious beating from a teammate, he also beat a great champion in the same car


Very true, but not my point

The comparison is still not valid


Why? He says that he is over-rated because he won all his WDC's with the best car. It's the same for pretty much all WDC winners, they all had the best or second best cars, with maybe a handful of exceptions. The only difference was the not so strong co-driver, although he only won 1 WDC next to Prost, the other two were with Berger as a team mate...

Yes the association with Prost is king which would be akin to pairing up Vettel with Alonso in today's terms, plus Senna never got his comeuppance against a younger teammate. He did give his various reasons for his views on Vettel being overrated, now whether they be wrong or right, comparison with Senna certainly doesn't prove he is wrong.

So you still don't want to understand my point, which is fine. Senna was just en example, of someone who is highly rated and tooted as the best one ever, though he only won in the best cars. These are facts.

So two drivers that won with best cars and one is the best ever and the other one is just over-rated... Again, Senna's majority of WDC's were against a weaker team mate, arguably worse than Vettel's team mate. Can you see why I question his way of thinking?


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 09, 2015 4:28 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
AstoriaisBACK wrote:
How can a multiple WC be overrated? I mean really. Hamilton had huge ratings when he came up and silenced any doubters with a WC. (I am not a Hamilton fan). I would say overrated would apply to someone who had much hype around him and never made it to the top a WC.

from my perspective people like Weber, Montoya, come to mind right off the top of my head.

Overrated in terms of being rated as the best driver in F1 and one of the all time greats


The OP doesn't say that. It says one of the most successful, not best nor GOAT.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 09, 2015 4:31 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
How high was Hakkinen really rated, the second best driver at the time to Schumacher, who do you think was better?

Hakkinen was pretty average considering Coulthard was quite closely matched with him. I would say that Heinz-Harald Frentzen, Damon Hill, Jacque Villeneuve and Rubens Barrichello were quicker than Hakkinen based on their respective head-to-heads.

SchumieRules wrote:
So you still don't want to understand my point, which is fine. Senna was just en example, of someone who is highly rated and tooted as the best one ever, though he only won in the best cars. These are facts.

So two drivers that won with best cars and one is the best ever and the other one is just over-rated... Again, Senna's majority of WDC's were against a weaker team mate, arguably worse than Vettel's team mate. Can you see why I question his way of thinking?

I'm of the opinion that Senna is largely overrated as an overall package. However, that's not very relevant here. I consider Senna #6 and Vettel within the top 20 for now at least.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 09, 2015 4:36 pm 
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Yes, some people did rate Vettel as one of the all time greats, and some have even said he was the best driver in F1. Funny thing, I have also seen Lewis rated as one of the all time greats and some have said that he was/is the best driver in F1. I seem to recall a time with some even claimed that Kimi was the best driver in F1 at the time. So... if they are someone other than "your" driver they are overrated... Isn't that how it works?

Personally, it is common knowledge that I have felt that Alonso is the best driver in F1 and said the same through Vettels 4 WDCs, as well as Hamilton's two. Funny thing, I have even seen some claim that Alonso is not the best in F1 because he could win a WDC(s) in recent years, and even a couple of idiotic (yes, idiotic) claim that Alonso is not even a good-to-great driver period.

The simple truth is, the very term "overrated" requires a subjective conclusion, and when conclusions are subjective, emotions & biases become mighty factors.

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