IndyCar: Simon Pagenaud becomes fastest driver in oval

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Laura23
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Re: IndyCar: Simon Pagenaud becomes fastest driver in oval

Post by Laura23 »

pc27b wrote:http://www.racer.com/indycar/item/116939-indy-500-hinchcliffe-saved-from-serious-injuries

damn, suspension went through one leg into the other, stopping at his pelvis. serious blood loss when the safety team arrived. they had better break tradition and offer more testing this week. at least they stopped practice and checked all suspension on the other cars

This crash was all about a suspension failure which they have already taken measures to check on other cars. There isn't much more they can do about that now. More testing won't stop this from happening again in the race, only fate will. The chances of a repeat crash? Slim. But then this is racing at over 220MPH. Crashes will happen and when they happen they will be big. The only way to prevent them is to stop racing and that isn't an option.

Anything too kneejerk and you could actually make the problems worse just like F1 did in 1994. So far this Indy month we've had three flips with no injuries and one big smash with some rather serious ones but the driver is now stable and said to be in a position to make a full recovery given time. I'd say that's a fairly decent hit rate, had this been a decade ago we could have seen a driver die already and perhaps two decades ago it may have been even worse. But Hinchcliffe's accident was just bad luck, it had nothing to do with the aero issues suffered by the Chevy cars.
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Re: IndyCar: Simon Pagenaud becomes fastest driver in oval

Post by Jenson's Understeer »

Jesus, when you read about it, the severity of the accident suddenly becomes a lot more apparent. He's one very lucky man right now.
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Re: IndyCar: Simon Pagenaud becomes fastest driver in oval

Post by pc27b »

yes, i read the suspension failed, they need more testing of the new aero kits, and continued looking into the underbodies. everyone at the speedway agrees on that. they knee jerked sunday big time.
darn lucky the guys that flipped didn't have packs of cars around them like they will sunday

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Re: IndyCar: Simon Pagenaud becomes fastest driver in oval

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pc27b wrote:yes, i read the suspension failed, they need more testing of the new aero kits, and continued looking into the underbodies. everyone at the speedway agrees on that. they knee jerked sunday big time.
darn lucky the guys that flipped didn't have packs of cars around them like they will sunday

Even with testing there is next to no time to change anything on the cars. Sunday should be better, the drivers will be just that tad more careful than they would otherwise have been given Hinchcliffe's accident, even if it was something unpreventable in the first place. The drivers know the risks, the fans know them as well. As I said at these kinds of speeds no amount of testing will make it completely safe. You hit a wall at over 200MPH and you will hurt. You hit a wall sideways/upside down at 200MPH the chances are you may never make the journey back home. That's just Indy racing.

This week they are damned if they do and damned if they don't it seems.
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Re: IndyCar: Simon Pagenaud becomes fastest driver in oval

Post by Nosebuckle »

pc27b wrote:http://www.racer.com/indycar/item/116939-indy-500-hinchcliffe-saved-from-serious-injuries

damn, suspension went through one leg into the other, stopping at his pelvis. serious blood loss when the safety team arrived. they had better break tradition and offer more testing this week. at least they stopped practice and checked all suspension on the other cars


Thanks for sharing this. How does the safety cell not prevent the suspension pieces from entering it? Isn't that the primary purpose? I know that part of the safety features of the car include the ability of the car to absorb energy and not transfer to the driver - does this mean compromising the integrity of the cell?

I might be alone but I'm thinking more and more that open-wheeled oval racing is unreasonably dangerous.

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Re: IndyCar: Simon Pagenaud becomes fastest driver in oval

Post by Blake »

Frightening crash, even more so when you realize that he even hit the Safer barrier. Even though the driver tub is highly evolved from a safety sense, there is always the risk, especially when there are walls & high speeds. Freakish situations cannot always be anticipated thinking of the Senna accident, or the Dale Earnhardt accident one. Usually though, they lead to safety innovations to address try to address the issue. In this case, we are lucky that it did not deal with a fatality to increase the awareness.

Hats off to the Safety Crew, they really are "top notch" at Indianapolis. The speedway has always been proud of them. I remember when Ralf slammed into the wall at Indy, IMS got a lot of criticism over how long it took the safety crew to get to him... people not realizing that F1 provided the safety crews.
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Re: IndyCar: Simon Pagenaud becomes fastest driver in oval

Post by Blake »

Nosebuckle wrote:
pc27b wrote:http://www.racer.com/indycar/item/116939-indy-500-hinchcliffe-saved-from-serious-injuries

damn, suspension went through one leg into the other, stopping at his pelvis. serious blood loss when the safety team arrived. they had better break tradition and offer more testing this week. at least they stopped practice and checked all suspension on the other cars


Thanks for sharing this. How does the safety cell not prevent the suspension pieces from entering it? Isn't that the primary purpose? I know that part of the safety features of the car include the ability of the car to absorb energy and not transfer to the driver - does this mean compromising the integrity of the cell?

I might be alone but I'm thinking more and more that open-wheeled oval racing is unreasonably dangerous.


Don't be lulled to sleep thinking that F1 or road courses are immune to such a happening. We have been lucky with F1 that there hasn't been a fatality, but it is certaily a risk that every driver has to live with... be it a road course or an oval.
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Re: IndyCar: Simon Pagenaud becomes fastest driver in oval

Post by Placid »

MOG - No wonder why the surgery. I wonder if Ronnie Peterson's injuries were far worse than Hinchcliffe's?

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Re: IndyCar: Simon Pagenaud becomes fastest driver in oval

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I am terrified someone is going to get seriously hurt or worse this Sunday given the way cars have been getting airbourne. I remember watching the race where we lost Dan and the sh*tty, empty feeling in the pit of my stomach after it still haunts me. Hoping they all stay safe out there.
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Re: IndyCar: Simon Pagenaud becomes fastest driver in oval

Post by Laura23 »

TheOtherGuy wrote:I am terrified someone is going to get seriously hurt or worse this Sunday given the way cars have been getting airbourne. I remember watching the race where we lost Dan and the sh*tty, empty feeling in the pit of my stomach after it still haunts me. Hoping they all stay safe out there.

Someone has already been seriously hurt this Indy 500. Hinchcliffe was critical on arrival to the hospital and he could easily have lost his life had the medical crews been 60 seconds later on the scene. That's about as close as you can get without a fatality.
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Re: IndyCar: Simon Pagenaud becomes fastest driver in oval

Post by Blake »

Yes, somebody may get hurt this Indy 500. Somebody may get hurt this Monaco Grand Prix. Somebody may get hurt in the Charlotte 600 this weekend.

None of us want to see someone get hurt, and I am sure we are all hoping no one does. Yet there will still be hundreds of thousands at the tracks watching them race and millions (myself included) watching on TV. There will still be drivers on the tracks pushing the limits. Lets hope all have a safe race and the spectators have a safe trip to and from the circuits.
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Re: IndyCar: Simon Pagenaud becomes fastest driver in oval

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Laura23 wrote:
TheOtherGuy wrote:I am terrified someone is going to get seriously hurt or worse this Sunday given the way cars have been getting airbourne. I remember watching the race where we lost Dan and the sh*tty, empty feeling in the pit of my stomach after it still haunts me. Hoping they all stay safe out there.

Someone has already been seriously hurt this Indy 500. Hinchcliffe was critical on arrival to the hospital and he could easily have lost his life had the medical crews been 60 seconds later on the scene. That's about as close as you can get without a fatality.

I know Hinch has been seriously hurt...

That's why I said "this Sunday" and specifically mentioned cars getting airborne. If there was a crash like Castroneves's but in a pack situation, the results could be catastrophic. That was my point...
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Re: IndyCar: Simon Pagenaud becomes fastest driver in oval

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I can only assume there is a major design flaw with the current cars. The way they are flipping over is dreadful.
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Re: IndyCar: Simon Pagenaud becomes fastest driver in oval

Post by Jenson's Understeer »

TheOtherGuy wrote:
Laura23 wrote:
TheOtherGuy wrote:I am terrified someone is going to get seriously hurt or worse this Sunday given the way cars have been getting airbourne. I remember watching the race where we lost Dan and the sh*tty, empty feeling in the pit of my stomach after it still haunts me. Hoping they all stay safe out there.

Someone has already been seriously hurt this Indy 500. Hinchcliffe was critical on arrival to the hospital and he could easily have lost his life had the medical crews been 60 seconds later on the scene. That's about as close as you can get without a fatality.

I know Hinch has been seriously hurt...

That's why I said "this Sunday" and specifically mentioned cars getting airborne. If there was a crash like Castroneves's but in a pack situation, the results could be catastrophic. That was my point...


Exactly what I keep saying. Hell, they've been lucky as it is that none of these airborne cars have gone right and into the catchfence. Best case scenario right now is Hinchcliffe's injury is as bad as it gets.
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Re: IndyCar: Simon Pagenaud becomes fastest driver in oval

Post by Laura23 »

Jenson's Understeer wrote:
TheOtherGuy wrote:
Laura23 wrote:
TheOtherGuy wrote:I am terrified someone is going to get seriously hurt or worse this Sunday given the way cars have been getting airbourne. I remember watching the race where we lost Dan and the sh*tty, empty feeling in the pit of my stomach after it still haunts me. Hoping they all stay safe out there.

Someone has already been seriously hurt this Indy 500. Hinchcliffe was critical on arrival to the hospital and he could easily have lost his life had the medical crews been 60 seconds later on the scene. That's about as close as you can get without a fatality.

I know Hinch has been seriously hurt...

That's why I said "this Sunday" and specifically mentioned cars getting airborne. If there was a crash like Castroneves's but in a pack situation, the results could be catastrophic. That was my point...


Exactly what I keep saying. Hell, they've been lucky as it is that none of these airborne cars have gone right and into the catchfence. Best case scenario right now is Hinchcliffe's injury is as bad as it gets.

If it does happen in the race the I hope to hell it isn't a front/mid-pack running car. I don't think anyone needs reminding of Las Vegas 2011.

But let's be honest that situation can happen in any formula that runs on ovals. The nature of the track lends itself to cars flipping more than road courses anyway.
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Re: IndyCar: Simon Pagenaud becomes fastest driver in oval

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Re: IndyCar: Simon Pagenaud becomes fastest driver in oval

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pc27b wrote:http://www.racer.com/indycar/item/116939-indy-500-hinchcliffe-saved-from-serious-injuries

damn, suspension went through one leg into the other, stopping at his pelvis. serious blood loss when the safety team arrived. they had better break tradition and offer more testing this week. at least they stopped practice and checked all suspension on the other cars

My gosh I hadn't seen this news until now. This is terrible. Glad he is doing well but there seems to be something seriously wrong. That incident in a race with traffic might have been catastrophic.

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Re: IndyCar: Simon Pagenaud becomes fastest driver in oval

Post by Blake »

They say the right front suspension failed as Bunch was entering the turn... that may well have nothing to do with the speed or the car aero package... or car stability. However, it might well mean that they best inspect the pieces that failed very carefully on other cars. I an sure they are doing just that.
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Re: IndyCar: Simon Pagenaud becomes fastest driver in oval

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Blake wrote:Frightening crash, even more so when you realize that he even hit the Safer barrier. Even though the driver tub is highly evolved from a safety sense, there is always the risk, especially when there are walls & high speeds. Freakish situations cannot always be anticipated thinking of the Senna accident, or the Dale Earnhardt accident one. Usually though, they lead to safety innovations to address try to address the issue. In this case, we are lucky that it did not deal with a fatality to increase the awareness.

Hats off to the Safety Crew, they really are "top notch" at Indianapolis. The speedway has always been proud of them. I remember when Ralf slammed into the wall at Indy, IMS got a lot of criticism over how long it took the safety crew to get to him... people not realizing that F1 provided the safety crews.


ims has a safety crew, but it was the indy car safety crew that saved him. this crew travels with the series to every race. same safety crew that saved zanardi. (not all the same guys, but the same traveling safety crew they have had for decades) not the volunteers that each track hires

the series and the speedway are hurting and have been for years. so they want eye popping numbers and new track records, so too do many fans. i don'tt agree with that, just because the speeds are higher, doesn't make for better racing. it's become to much like restrictor plate racing, plant your right foot and go (terrible imo) they don't lift in the corners and the speed in the corners is way to high. drivers can't correct

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Re: IndyCar: Simon Pagenaud becomes fastest driver in oval

Post by Blake »

pc27b wrote:ims has a safety crew, but it was the indy car safety crew that saved him. this crew travels with the series to every race. same safety crew that saved zanardi. (not all the same guys, but the same traveling safety crew they have had for decades) not the volunteers that each track hires

the series and the speedway are hurting and have been for years. so they want eye popping numbers and new track records, so too do many fans. i don'tt agree with that, just because the speeds are higher, doesn't make for better racing. it's become to much like restrictor plate racing, plant your right foot and go (terrible imo) they don't lift in the corners and the speed in the corners is way to high. drivers can't correct


You are right, pc. I shoiuld separated the IndyCar safety crew from the Speedway crew. I often fall into the trap of thinking of IndyCar and IMS as one and the same. Either way, it is a superb crew and many a driver owes them a great debt.

I agree, and disagree, with the second part of your post. I hated the in-car cameras and sound during qualifying, when there was never a change in engine note due to being flat out around the whole track. However, in race conditions, with traffic, that changes a bit, and of course, you have drafting and "packs" that effect how you handle the course. I do like the speed, as I said, the speeds at Indy are unlike any other racing I have ever had a chance to see in person. Slowing them down as they did before... only to see them climb again to near original highs may help... for a while. However, they have to be careful in that, be careful not to take away that element that makes the 500 what it is/was. It was interesting to hear some of the drivers say on Sunday qualifying, after the boost had been turned down, that the car became boring to drive... basically that element of challenge had been removed. Of course, that was when there was but one car on the track at a time, the race could well be different, or at least we would hope so. From a fan viewpoint, I don't know if I could tell the difference between 237mph and 232mph coming into Turn 3 from the stands or not, but if it were a noteable difference, how would we view it?

You have been to a few of them as well, and to 500s before I ever got the chance to go in person. I envy you in that... I would have loved to see the Unsers racing, Mears, Foyt, Andretti, et al. All of my visits have been this century, starting in 2000. No matter when one went though, it was about the speed... that isn't just a modern day "gimick" to get the fans. There is no doubt that the 500 has lost ground when it comes to fans, and as you say, they have been for years. I believe it started with the CART/IRL split... and was made worse by frightening economic times. In fact almost all race series have experienced a drop-off be it NASCAR, Indy or F1. With all the electronic distractions, I am not sure that any of them will ever bounce back to previous highs.

All that said, let us all hope for a good safe race... and a Penske victory!
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Re: IndyCar: Simon Pagenaud becomes fastest driver in oval

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qvtAq7K0uYo

I found a video. And there was an on-board camera. The failure is shown around the 1:24 mark. there will be a shift on the right front.

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Re: IndyCar: Simon Pagenaud becomes fastest driver in oval

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Hinchcliffe to make full recovery, but likely out for the year. Ryan Briscoe to take over the #5 car.

Hinchcliffe report:
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/119073

http://www.racer.com/indycar/item/11700 ... no-5-honda

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Re: IndyCar: Simon Pagenaud becomes fastest driver in oval

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What UK Channel is showing the race?

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Re: IndyCar: Simon Pagenaud becomes fastest driver in oval

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Alex53 wrote:What UK Channel is showing the race?


It's on one of the BT Sport ones, they have the UK rights to the race. It will be up on the official Indycar youtube channel in its entirety the day after though

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Re: IndyCar: Simon Pagenaud becomes fastest driver in oval

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BT Sport bundles ESPN with its two channels in the UK. It's on that.

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Re: IndyCar: Simon Pagenaud becomes fastest driver in oval

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Also, IMS might have it streaming on their website like they have done with practice and qualifying.

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Re: IndyCar: Simon Pagenaud becomes fastest driver in oval

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Placid wrote:Hinchcliffe to make full recovery, but likely out for the year. Ryan Briscoe to take over the #5 car.

Hinchcliffe report:
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/119073

http://www.racer.com/indycar/item/11700 ... no-5-honda


As far as it goes, the #5 entry for the remainder of the events is undetermined. Briscoe is driving at Indy.

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Re: IndyCar: Simon Pagenaud becomes fastest driver in oval

Post by Blake »

Not to rekindle the debate, but I came across a couple of articles that reflect on the recent crash situations for the Indy 500. This first one is involves the thoughts of highly repected IndyCar driver, Tony Kaanan discussing the risk and the driver mentallity concerning them.

http://www.motorsport.com/indycar/news/kanaan-this-is-a-very-dangerous-sport-not-everybody-can-do-this

The second one discussing the risks and racing...

http://www.motorsport.com/indycar/news/racing-and-danger-one-can-not-be-without-the-other

Some of you may find them interesting.
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Re: IndyCar: Simon Pagenaud becomes fastest driver in oval

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Blake wrote:Not to rekindle the debate, but I came across a couple of articles that reflect on the recent crash situations for the Indy 500. This first one is involves the thoughts of highly repected IndyCar driver, Tony Kaanan discussing the risk and the driver mentallity concerning them.

http://www.motorsport.com/indycar/news/kanaan-this-is-a-very-dangerous-sport-not-everybody-can-do-this

The second one discussing the risks and racing...

http://www.motorsport.com/indycar/news/racing-and-danger-one-can-not-be-without-the-other

Some of you may find them interesting.

I believe a middle ground exists in which we enjoy the fact that drivers are flat-out with their "balls to the wall" but also acknowledge that unnecessary danger (like cars flipping in seemingly innocuous incidents) needs to be stamped out. These articles seem to portray it as a black-and-white, either/or situation which it really isn't.
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Re: IndyCar: Simon Pagenaud becomes fastest driver in oval

Post by Blake »

OtherGuy,

I understand your point, however, I would suspect that Tony Kaanan, a current driver and former Indy 500 champion would be a pretty good source on the driver mentality towards racing and the speedway. I suspect he is not unique in his viewpoint amongst the drivers.

That doesn't mean, nor does Tony say, that you can ignore the need to make cars safer, only that the risk is there, You can rest assured that the officials and the teams will try to resolve any stability issues that they have, they aren't crazy. Still the risk will always be there in racing, any form of racing. One does not have to be going 233mph in an Indy car to have an serious accident.

As I said, let us just hope for a safe race for all, as I will be doing for Monaco & Charlotte.
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Re: IndyCar: Simon Pagenaud becomes fastest driver in oval

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FROM INDYCAR.COM
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We are all with you Hinch!!

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Re: IndyCar: Simon Pagenaud becomes fastest driver in oval

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The Dale Coyne stable has drama once again. Carlos Huertas has a medical issue and will not participate the Indy 500. Tristian Vautier who recently qualified James Davison's car on the grid, will now take over the #18 entry.

http://www.racer.com/indycar/item/11705 ... n-at-coyne

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Re: IndyCar: Simon Pagenaud becomes fastest driver in oval

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Placid wrote:The Dale Coyne stable has drama once again. Carlos Huertas has a medical issue and will not participate the Indy 500. Tristian Vautier who recently qualified James Davison's car on the grid, will now take over the #18 entry.

http://www.racer.com/indycar/item/11705 ... n-at-coyne


Why not stick Vautier in the car he qualified so it starts from the qualification place and not the back of the grid like it will if Davison takes the seat, and have Davison replace Huertas? Seems silly to do it any other way.

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Re: IndyCar: Simon Pagenaud becomes fastest driver in oval

Post by pc27b »

blake : "You can rest assured that the officials and the teams will try to resolve any stability issues that they have, they aren't crazy. ""

the people running indy car, outside of derrick walker, are nearly all clueless !
i well understand racers want to race, but they also bitched up a storm about using the hans device when introduced and never would have worn it, if not mandated. so the rules makers need to protect not only the drivers, but the fans in the seats.

i have been watching motorsports for a long long time, in the mid to late nineties i was attending half the CART races, got to know many of the participants, especially the penske crew. the greg moore crash was another death in racing, but that one took something away from my passion for motorsports. horrible crash.

a few days after the lausitz, germany race, kanaan two other racers and one of alex's friends flew to the next race in england. happened that they sat down next to me in the airport, then on the plane. talked with damatta most of the time about how and why his great season had went down the drain at that point, kaanan was joking around the entire time and they all were focused on the next race. can't really describe how there mentality works when it comes to the danger they know is there, but they just don't consciously recognize it, and how odd it made me feel to hear them talking about the next race while they had just left there friend with no legs and clinging to life.

it would be a better discussion over a few beers, as you said though, i hope for better than what we have seen in practice during the race and hope there is not a design flaw that will cause more flying cars.

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Re: IndyCar: Simon Pagenaud becomes fastest driver in oval

Post by Blake »

Hi, pc...

The question remains though... what should IndyCar do different than they have given the circumstances? They reacted to flips, they slowed the cars down, and then inspected the suspensions on all the cars after Hinch's front suspension broke going into the turn. The only option left would be to cancel the race, and I don't believe that to be a real option.

Interestingly, I was reading an article with Vettel today. Here is Vettel basically saying that the current F1 cars are too easy to driver and boring

"Formula 1 is right to bring back extreme cars that force drivers to be brave and put a premium far more on pure talent"

"I am very old school," said Vettel. "I would like to have a much bigger engine, I don't know if it turbo or not, better tyres...more grip, so the cars are faster in general.

"The first time I drove an F1 car to be honest I was scared and now I don't think you get that impression any more. The step from GP2 to F1 is not very big.

"It is still difficult to drive fast, but probably back in the years you needed a little bit bigger balls, which is what the drivers would appreciate and also the fans."


http://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/vettel-f1-needs-to-be-extreme-again/


and on the other hand, we have fans saying that IndyCar is too dangerous and too fast. And the article that I linked involving Tony Kaanan, indicates that the IndyCar drivers, or at least some of them, would be more in line with Vettel's thinking.

http://www.motorsport.com/indycar/news/kanaan-this-is-a-very-dangerous-sport-not-everybody-can-do-this

So where is that happy common ground?


fascinating.
Forza Ferrari
WCCs = 16
WDCs = 15

pc27b
Posts: 782
Joined: Mon Nov 28, 2011 6:17 pm
Location: illinois

Re: IndyCar: Simon Pagenaud becomes fastest driver in oval

Post by pc27b »

you can link to drivers from decades past who say they same thing. even when some of them raced f1, with a gas can between their legs with a hose going to the cars fuel tank !
it would be a better discussion over an evening of beers, so i'll just say enjoy all the racing sunday !

http://www.racer.com/more/viewpoints/it ... inchcliffe

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