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InBetween wrote:

Rockie wrote:Renault is never beating Redbull being realistic, no one comes close in building a chassis like Redbull racing.

1. Don't you ever underestimate Renault, their track record says otherwise.
2. No one has a lifetime season pass at the top, not even RB.
3. Being a works team means having an engine manufacturer solidly behind you, technically and financially, something RB has had the luxury of enjoying for quite a few years including their glory ones with SV. That isn't the case anymore and they are probably feeling it: less financial advantages, less control over engine development, etc.

But arguing this is pointless, the simple fact that RB is jumping Renault's boat and hopping on Honda's is argument enough.

Not underestimating Renault, I see it as you looking down on Redbull, Redbull is in the power three due to the strength of their chassis and nothing else.

Redbull not being a works team had no influence on their development strength and you will see that next year.

No Mercedes powered car has won a race except the works team.

Rockie wrote:No Mercedes powered car has won a race except the works team.

Of course they have: McLaren 2012 was the last IIRC.

InBetween wrote:

Rockie wrote:No Mercedes powered car has won a race except the works team.

Of course they have: McLaren 2012 was the last IIRC.

You know I was talking about the PU era.

Rockie wrote:

InBetween wrote:

pokerman wrote:I will repeat again if it's the be all and end all why did they walk away from the Renault works engine?

Huh? Renault is Renault's works team, its not RB any more. What are you talking about? RB is, as of now, a client team like FI is with Mercedes but obviously with better status because its winning races. But the moment Renault team starts being a race contender and a championship challenger (and history says there is pretty good chance it will happen sooner than later) RB is in trouble if its still running a Renault engine.

McLaren is making it painfully clear that, reliability issues aside, the Honda engine is probably a lot better than people think (McLaren is F1's laughing stock right now). I honestly think this is the right move for RB; their future with the current engine is compromised as long as Renault is determined to keep its own team in F1 and putting money to make it a winner; Honda is the obvious choice, they should be passed the learning curve and their engines should only get better and better.

Renault is never beating Redbull being realistic, no one comes close in building a chassis like Redbull racing.

I'd wager even with the Honda engine F1 power rankings won't change as of now the Redbull chassis is over a second quicker than the Renault works team.

According to RBR one of the reason they decide to go with Honda was because of Renault works team. May be they think Renault will also start pouring money like Mercedes, Ferrari. Though it will take them years. May be 2021 they can get close to RBR ?

The excuses have truly run out for Mclaren. They are way down on the pace of even the Renault team let alone Red Bull despite all the bluster and promises about what they could do with a Renault engine.

They haven't had a podium in 4 years and are winless in 5 and a half years amd a championship in 10 years. It may get to the point where we have to describe them as a former big team.

Sad to say it, but in France they were truly and really a backmarker team. Only Williams was maybe worse (accounting for driver differences).

This Sunday finally marks the end of the English privateer teams success in F1 - if there was any doubt left. Who would have thought so when the likes of McLaren, Lotus, Williams, Brabham, and Tyrrell were dominating the sport vis-à-vis Ferrari.

https://www.racefans.net/2018/07/25/alo ... -any-more/

Yet more indication that this year's car is a step backwards from the last. Several individuals inside the team have said outright that this car is worse than the 2017 model.

I think they had the worst car at Hockenheim. It's not so worrying that the car is slow as it is that they seem completely unable to develop it.

mikeyg123 wrote:I think they had the worst car at Hockenheim. It's not so worrying that the car is slow as it is that they seem completely unable to develop it.

You're not wrong, some of the stuff coming out of them is so baffling - it's depressing as a longtime Macca fan. Alonso saying that Stoff has a car with less downforce, but the team doesn't know why? I mean, what the heck? How can you possibly not know why one of your cars is worse than the other?

Stoff's getting a new chassis in Hungary so hopefully that solves that issue. The upgrades slowed down after Monaco because they didn't know what was causing the aero issue so carrying on with planned developments had to stop otherwise it adds to the confusion. They've only been bringing tweaks and non-raceable testing wings and brake ducts etc.. until they got to the bottom of it so while they stood still everyone passed them.

But only on traction limited tracks made up with predominantly straights and little or no high speed corners. (Canada,France and Germany especially painful and they did look slowest) whereas the high speed aero is apparently still good, they've been consistently 4th quickest in the high speed corners so those corners in Austria and Silverstone brought them back a little bit, Silverstone especially they were about 6th instead of last.

Apparently a breakthrough was found in Austria FP testing with one of the non raceable parts and so the now tweaked developments in the pipeline are supposedly part of a large aero upgrade coming to Hungary but we'll see.

I'm far from an aero guy so forgive me but apparently it's an aero separation issue at low speed so they lose d/f and contact pressure when not at high speed. (Twitter)

Exediron wrote:

mikeyg123 wrote:I think they had the worst car at Hockenheim. It's not so worrying that the car is slow as it is that they seem completely unable to develop it.

You're not wrong, some of the stuff coming out of them is so baffling - it's depressing as a longtime Macca fan. Alonso saying that Stoff has a car with less downforce, but the team doesn't know why? I mean, what the heck? How can you possibly not know why one of your cars is worse than the other?

With so many systems and components having to work in unison to produce overall performance, it is EXTREMELY difficult to pinpoint exactly where some issues originate from. There could be a hairline fracture in the honeycomb within the survival cell that won’t warp or deflect unless the car is moving under full power with all the forces being applied all at the same time. A car is subjected to push, pull, twisting and torsioning in both directions, and all of it happens under acceleration and braking, all of which introduce unique extremes one can simply not replicate outside of driving it as far on the limit as it allows.

Therefore it can prove difficult as has been the case with all teams in the past. Williams, Sauber, Ferrari, Red Bull, Mercedes, Toro Rosso and pretty much every team has had to replace their drivers’ chassis because they couldn’t find the issue the driver was reporting. And 9 times out of 10, the new chassis sees said drivers immediately quicker.

F1 MERCENARY wrote:

Exediron wrote:

mikeyg123 wrote:I think they had the worst car at Hockenheim. It's not so worrying that the car is slow as it is that they seem completely unable to develop it.

You're not wrong, some of the stuff coming out of them is so baffling - it's depressing as a longtime Macca fan. Alonso saying that Stoff has a car with less downforce, but the team doesn't know why? I mean, what the heck? How can you possibly not know why one of your cars is worse than the other?

With so many systems and components having to work in unison to produce overall performance, it is EXTREMELY difficult to pinpoint exactly where some issues originate from. There could be a hairline fracture in the honeycomb within the survival cell that won’t warp or deflect unless the car is moving under full power with all the forces being applied all at the same time. A car is subjected to push, pull, twisting and torsioning in both directions, and all of it happens under acceleration and braking, all of which introduce unique extremes one can simply not replicate outside of driving it as far on the limit as it allows.

Therefore it can prove difficult as has been the case with all teams in the past. Williams, Sauber, Ferrari, Red Bull, Mercedes, Toro Rosso and pretty much every team has had to replace their drivers’ chassis because they couldn’t find the issue the driver was reporting. And 9 times out of 10, the new chassis sees said drivers immediately quicker.

True, I remember RBR used to change chassis quiet a lot during Vettel Webber era when they could not explain performance gap between the two drivers, and it used to often yield positive results