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Siao7 wrote:

Pullrod wrote:McLaren(the winning and positive team) died the moment Hamilton went to Mercedes. He took away from Woking the winning mentality, the positivity, the passion and the FANS.

Nobody is 150% committed in this NEW McLaren project and the team is chock-full of mercenaries, impostors and lazy engineers/personnel.

People are seeing it now but I saw it since the beginning but nobody wanted to believe me. They are a failure and only a Radical change(not the engine) can give the McLaren's name some dignity.

And if they want to do Indy or other extra activities, at least they should have the decency to change the team's name to something else.

I'd say that Dennis leaving has had the biggest effect on the team. Hamilton left, but teams can survive the drivers leaving, someone else is going to be signed to drive. Arguably they covered that with Alonso, a driver as good if not better than Lewis (lets not get into that).

But Dennis not being involved has had a bigger effect. The guy ran a very tight ship, I knew someone working there and the stories were that when Dennis was walking around the place even your desk had to be clean, not even a coffee stain on it. He was very strict, respected, but very strict. He wouldn't tolerate failure and everyone was giving their maximum. Now they seem like ghosts of their former team

Alonso is not Hamilton or Vettel as much as you want us to believe.

He is too divisive and not suitable to a long cycle of success.(Read Nico Rosberg latest words on WHY no top team will touch him)
Look at Mercedes. You can bet they will not sleep just to fix their car. Same with Vettel and Ferrari, meanwhile in McLaren they have their head elsewhere and are not walking in the same direction.

Zoue wrote:

Sutton wrote:

Siao7 wrote:

Pullrod wrote:McLaren(the winning and positive team) died the moment Hamilton went to Mercedes. He took away from Woking the winning mentality, the positivity, the passion and the FANS.

Nobody is 150% committed in this NEW McLaren project and the team is chock-full of mercenaries, impostors and lazy engineers/personnel.

People are seeing it now but I saw it since the beginning but nobody wanted to believe me. They are a failure and only a Radical change(not the engine) can give the McLaren's name some dignity.

And if they want to do Indy or other extra activities, at least they should have the decency to change the team's name to something else.

I'd say that Dennis leaving has had the biggest effect on the team. Hamilton left, but teams can survive the drivers leaving, someone else is going to be signed to drive. Arguably they covered that with Alonso, a driver as good if not better than Lewis (lets not get into that).

But Dennis not being involved has had a bigger effect. The guy ran a very tight ship, I knew someone working there and the stories were that when Dennis was walking around the place even your desk had to be clean, not even a coffee stain on it. He was very strict, respected, but very strict. He wouldn't tolerate failure and everyone was giving their maximum. Now they seem like ghosts of their former team

I think you are spot on. Similar story to Williams. Once Frank and Patrick Head got older and less involved, Williams slipped down the pecking order.

Yeah I'd agree. RD was McLaren and they are not quite the same team without him.

Yes, Williams also a good shout

Siao7 wrote:

Pullrod wrote:McLaren(the winning and positive team) died the moment Hamilton went to Mercedes. He took away from Woking the winning mentality, the positivity, the passion and the FANS.

Nobody is 150% committed in this NEW McLaren project and the team is chock-full of mercenaries, impostors and lazy engineers/personnel.

People are seeing it now but I saw it since the beginning but nobody wanted to believe me. They are a failure and only a Radical change(not the engine) can give the McLaren's name some dignity.

And if they want to do Indy or other extra activities, at least they should have the decency to change the team's name to something else.

I'd say that Dennis leaving has had the biggest effect on the team. Hamilton left, but teams can survive the drivers leaving, someone else is going to be signed to drive. Arguably they covered that with Alonso, a driver as good if not better than Lewis (lets not get into that).

But Dennis not being involved has had a bigger effect. The guy ran a very tight ship, I knew someone working there and the stories were that when Dennis was walking around the place even your desk had to be clean, not even a coffee stain on it. He was very strict, respected, but very strict. He wouldn't tolerate failure and everyone was giving their maximum. Now they seem like ghosts of their former team

But their problems started under Dennis. Hes the one who wanted Honda, hes the one who thought its impossible to compete as a Mercedes customer engine while Redbull is doing it even with an inferior customer engine.

kleefton wrote:

Siao7 wrote:

Pullrod wrote:McLaren(the winning and positive team) died the moment Hamilton went to Mercedes. He took away from Woking the winning mentality, the positivity, the passion and the FANS.

Nobody is 150% committed in this NEW McLaren project and the team is chock-full of mercenaries, impostors and lazy engineers/personnel.

People are seeing it now but I saw it since the beginning but nobody wanted to believe me. They are a failure and only a Radical change(not the engine) can give the McLaren's name some dignity.

And if they want to do Indy or other extra activities, at least they should have the decency to change the team's name to something else.

I'd say that Dennis leaving has had the biggest effect on the team. Hamilton left, but teams can survive the drivers leaving, someone else is going to be signed to drive. Arguably they covered that with Alonso, a driver as good if not better than Lewis (lets not get into that).

But Dennis not being involved has had a bigger effect. The guy ran a very tight ship, I knew someone working there and the stories were that when Dennis was walking around the place even your desk had to be clean, not even a coffee stain on it. He was very strict, respected, but very strict. He wouldn't tolerate failure and everyone was giving their maximum. Now they seem like ghosts of their former team

But their problems started under Dennis. Hes the one who wanted Honda, hes the one who thought its impossible to compete as a Mercedes customer engine while Redbull is doing it even with an inferior customer engine.

Exactly. The same guy who went crying to Zetsche to implore him not to sign Hamilton.

.

Pullrod wrote:

Siao7 wrote:

Pullrod wrote:McLaren(the winning and positive team) died the moment Hamilton went to Mercedes. He took away from Woking the winning mentality, the positivity, the passion and the FANS.

Nobody is 150% committed in this NEW McLaren project and the team is chock-full of mercenaries, impostors and lazy engineers/personnel.

People are seeing it now but I saw it since the beginning but nobody wanted to believe me. They are a failure and only a Radical change(not the engine) can give the McLaren's name some dignity.

And if they want to do Indy or other extra activities, at least they should have the decency to change the team's name to something else.

I'd say that Dennis leaving has had the biggest effect on the team. Hamilton left, but teams can survive the drivers leaving, someone else is going to be signed to drive. Arguably they covered that with Alonso, a driver as good if not better than Lewis (lets not get into that).

But Dennis not being involved has had a bigger effect. The guy ran a very tight ship, I knew someone working there and the stories were that when Dennis was walking around the place even your desk had to be clean, not even a coffee stain on it. He was very strict, respected, but very strict. He wouldn't tolerate failure and everyone was giving their maximum. Now they seem like ghosts of their former team

Alonso is not Hamilton or Vettel as much as you want us to believe.

He is too divisive and not suitable to a long cycle of success.(Read Nico Rosberg latest words on WHY no top team will touch him)
Look at Mercedes. You can bet they will not sleep just to fix their car. Same with Vettel and Ferrari, meanwhile in McLaren they have their head elsewhere and are not walking in the same direction.

Oh my, I do not want you to believe anything. If you want to argue the calibre of Alonso then please go ahead. You will not convince many I suspect, but go ahead. I specifically said that we shouldn't get into that, the point being that the drivers come and go.

I agree with you fully in that he is very divisive, arguably bringing an air of negativity when things go wrong, while when he wins he IS the man (the ONLY man!). But drivers are divas and Dennis has had his fair share of them. Jeee, he went through 88-89 for god sake, he could have the measure of Alonso for breakfast. He went against Dennis in 2007 over having preferential treatment over Lewis, he even blackmailed him; have a guess who went home packing. It wasn't Dennis.

But anyway, these are semantics, the whole point I was making is that the team does not have a strong leader that inspires. I also find it unfair to say that in Merc they are not sleeping; do you have inside info about Macca that they are out watching movies instead of busting their backsides to make the car better? You can bet your bottom dollar that they are working hard. Maybe Dennis not being there to pull some ears is what makes the difference.

I am also not familiar with Rosberg's comments, can you please point me to them?

Pullrod wrote:

Siao7 wrote:

Pullrod wrote:McLaren(the winning and positive team) died the moment Hamilton went to Mercedes. He took away from Woking the winning mentality, the positivity, the passion and the FANS.

Nobody is 150% committed in this NEW McLaren project and the team is chock-full of mercenaries, impostors and lazy engineers/personnel.

People are seeing it now but I saw it since the beginning but nobody wanted to believe me. They are a failure and only a Radical change(not the engine) can give the McLaren's name some dignity.

And if they want to do Indy or other extra activities, at least they should have the decency to change the team's name to something else.

I'd say that Dennis leaving has had the biggest effect on the team. Hamilton left, but teams can survive the drivers leaving, someone else is going to be signed to drive. Arguably they covered that with Alonso, a driver as good if not better than Lewis (lets not get into that).

But Dennis not being involved has had a bigger effect. The guy ran a very tight ship, I knew someone working there and the stories were that when Dennis was walking around the place even your desk had to be clean, not even a coffee stain on it. He was very strict, respected, but very strict. He wouldn't tolerate failure and everyone was giving their maximum. Now they seem like ghosts of their former team

Alonso is not Hamilton or Vettel as much as you want us to believe.

He is too divisive and not suitable to a long cycle of success.(Read Nico Rosberg latest words on WHY no top team will touch him)
Look at Mercedes. You can bet they will not sleep just to fix their car. Same with Vettel and Ferrari, meanwhile in McLaren they have their head elsewhere and are not walking in the same direction.

Link?

Covalent wrote:

Pullrod wrote:

Siao7 wrote:

Pullrod wrote:McLaren(the winning and positive team) died the moment Hamilton went to Mercedes. He took away from Woking the winning mentality, the positivity, the passion and the FANS.

Nobody is 150% committed in this NEW McLaren project and the team is chock-full of mercenaries, impostors and lazy engineers/personnel.

People are seeing it now but I saw it since the beginning but nobody wanted to believe me. They are a failure and only a Radical change(not the engine) can give the McLaren's name some dignity.

And if they want to do Indy or other extra activities, at least they should have the decency to change the team's name to something else.

I'd say that Dennis leaving has had the biggest effect on the team. Hamilton left, but teams can survive the drivers leaving, someone else is going to be signed to drive. Arguably they covered that with Alonso, a driver as good if not better than Lewis (lets not get into that).

But Dennis not being involved has had a bigger effect. The guy ran a very tight ship, I knew someone working there and the stories were that when Dennis was walking around the place even your desk had to be clean, not even a coffee stain on it. He was very strict, respected, but very strict. He wouldn't tolerate failure and everyone was giving their maximum. Now they seem like ghosts of their former team

Alonso is not Hamilton or Vettel as much as you want us to believe.

He is too divisive and not suitable to a long cycle of success.(Read Nico Rosberg latest words on WHY no top team will touch him)
Look at Mercedes. You can bet they will not sleep just to fix their car. Same with Vettel and Ferrari, meanwhile in McLaren they have their head elsewhere and are not walking in the same direction.

Link?

I don't have a link, but they did show a screenshot of Nico's Tweet on Dutch TV. Said something to the effect that no teams want him because of his toxic personality, or words to that effect. Can't remember exactly (may not have used the word toxic, but the message was similar)

kleefton wrote:

Siao7 wrote:

Pullrod wrote:McLaren(the winning and positive team) died the moment Hamilton went to Mercedes. He took away from Woking the winning mentality, the positivity, the passion and the FANS.

Nobody is 150% committed in this NEW McLaren project and the team is chock-full of mercenaries, impostors and lazy engineers/personnel.

People are seeing it now but I saw it since the beginning but nobody wanted to believe me. They are a failure and only a Radical change(not the engine) can give the McLaren's name some dignity.

And if they want to do Indy or other extra activities, at least they should have the decency to change the team's name to something else.

I'd say that Dennis leaving has had the biggest effect on the team. Hamilton left, but teams can survive the drivers leaving, someone else is going to be signed to drive. Arguably they covered that with Alonso, a driver as good if not better than Lewis (lets not get into that).

But Dennis not being involved has had a bigger effect. The guy ran a very tight ship, I knew someone working there and the stories were that when Dennis was walking around the place even your desk had to be clean, not even a coffee stain on it. He was very strict, respected, but very strict. He wouldn't tolerate failure and everyone was giving their maximum. Now they seem like ghosts of their former team

But their problems started under Dennis. Hes the one who wanted Honda, hes the one who thought its impossible to compete as a Mercedes customer engine while Redbull is doing it even with an inferior customer engine.

And yet Red Bull is reported to be looking to leave Renault for Honda...

It's not Ron's fault that Honda didn't live up to expectations. I think he's done far more good for the team than bad

Zoue wrote:

kleefton wrote:

Siao7 wrote:

Pullrod wrote:McLaren(the winning and positive team) died the moment Hamilton went to Mercedes. He took away from Woking the winning mentality, the positivity, the passion and the FANS.

Nobody is 150% committed in this NEW McLaren project and the team is chock-full of mercenaries, impostors and lazy engineers/personnel.

People are seeing it now but I saw it since the beginning but nobody wanted to believe me. They are a failure and only a Radical change(not the engine) can give the McLaren's name some dignity.

And if they want to do Indy or other extra activities, at least they should have the decency to change the team's name to something else.

I'd say that Dennis leaving has had the biggest effect on the team. Hamilton left, but teams can survive the drivers leaving, someone else is going to be signed to drive. Arguably they covered that with Alonso, a driver as good if not better than Lewis (lets not get into that).

But Dennis not being involved has had a bigger effect. The guy ran a very tight ship, I knew someone working there and the stories were that when Dennis was walking around the place even your desk had to be clean, not even a coffee stain on it. He was very strict, respected, but very strict. He wouldn't tolerate failure and everyone was giving their maximum. Now they seem like ghosts of their former team

But their problems started under Dennis. Hes the one who wanted Honda, hes the one who thought its impossible to compete as a Mercedes customer engine while Redbull is doing it even with an inferior customer engine.

And yet Red Bull is reported to be looking to leave Renault for Honda...

It's not Ron's fault that Honda didn't live up to expectations. I think he's done far more good for the team than bad

Oh, I missed this comment from Kleefton. I am not saying that Dennis is infallible, that would be absurd. But he steered the team through a lot in his tenure, mostly good times in my view

Zoue wrote:

Covalent wrote:

Pullrod wrote:

Siao7 wrote:

Pullrod wrote:McLaren(the winning and positive team) died the moment Hamilton went to Mercedes. He took away from Woking the winning mentality, the positivity, the passion and the FANS.

Nobody is 150% committed in this NEW McLaren project and the team is chock-full of mercenaries, impostors and lazy engineers/personnel.

People are seeing it now but I saw it since the beginning but nobody wanted to believe me. They are a failure and only a Radical change(not the engine) can give the McLaren's name some dignity.

And if they want to do Indy or other extra activities, at least they should have the decency to change the team's name to something else.

I'd say that Dennis leaving has had the biggest effect on the team. Hamilton left, but teams can survive the drivers leaving, someone else is going to be signed to drive. Arguably they covered that with Alonso, a driver as good if not better than Lewis (lets not get into that).

But Dennis not being involved has had a bigger effect. The guy ran a very tight ship, I knew someone working there and the stories were that when Dennis was walking around the place even your desk had to be clean, not even a coffee stain on it. He was very strict, respected, but very strict. He wouldn't tolerate failure and everyone was giving their maximum. Now they seem like ghosts of their former team

Alonso is not Hamilton or Vettel as much as you want us to believe.

He is too divisive and not suitable to a long cycle of success.(Read Nico Rosberg latest words on WHY no top team will touch him)
Look at Mercedes. You can bet they will not sleep just to fix their car. Same with Vettel and Ferrari, meanwhile in McLaren they have their head elsewhere and are not walking in the same direction.

Link?

I don't have a link, but they did show a screenshot of Nico's Tweet on Dutch TV. Said something to the effect that no teams want him because of his toxic personality, or words to that effect. Can't remember exactly (may not have used the word toxic, but the message was similar)

Ah I found it: Confirms what I've said and thought for the last 10 years...

Have to say I appreciate how open Nico seems to be now that he's retired. In the same asknico segment he also says Kimi is past his prime etc.

Zoue wrote:

kleefton wrote:

Siao7 wrote:

Pullrod wrote:McLaren(the winning and positive team) died the moment Hamilton went to Mercedes. He took away from Woking the winning mentality, the positivity, the passion and the FANS.

Nobody is 150% committed in this NEW McLaren project and the team is chock-full of mercenaries, impostors and lazy engineers/personnel.

People are seeing it now but I saw it since the beginning but nobody wanted to believe me. They are a failure and only a Radical change(not the engine) can give the McLaren's name some dignity.

And if they want to do Indy or other extra activities, at least they should have the decency to change the team's name to something else.

I'd say that Dennis leaving has had the biggest effect on the team. Hamilton left, but teams can survive the drivers leaving, someone else is going to be signed to drive. Arguably they covered that with Alonso, a driver as good if not better than Lewis (lets not get into that).

But Dennis not being involved has had a bigger effect. The guy ran a very tight ship, I knew someone working there and the stories were that when Dennis was walking around the place even your desk had to be clean, not even a coffee stain on it. He was very strict, respected, but very strict. He wouldn't tolerate failure and everyone was giving their maximum. Now they seem like ghosts of their former team

But their problems started under Dennis. Hes the one who wanted Honda, hes the one who thought its impossible to compete as a Mercedes customer engine while Redbull is doing it even with an inferior customer engine.

And yet Red Bull is reported to be looking to leave Renault for Honda...

It's not Ron's fault that Honda didn't live up to expectations. I think he's done far more good for the team than bad

Well. Let’s see if it actually happens. But do you think redbull would entertain Honda engines if they could get their hands on Merc ones? I think not.

kleefton wrote:

Zoue wrote:

kleefton wrote:

Siao7 wrote:

Pullrod wrote:McLaren(the winning and positive team) died the moment Hamilton went to Mercedes. He took away from Woking the winning mentality, the positivity, the passion and the FANS.

Nobody is 150% committed in this NEW McLaren project and the team is chock-full of mercenaries, impostors and lazy engineers/personnel.

People are seeing it now but I saw it since the beginning but nobody wanted to believe me. They are a failure and only a Radical change(not the engine) can give the McLaren's name some dignity.

And if they want to do Indy or other extra activities, at least they should have the decency to change the team's name to something else.

I'd say that Dennis leaving has had the biggest effect on the team. Hamilton left, but teams can survive the drivers leaving, someone else is going to be signed to drive. Arguably they covered that with Alonso, a driver as good if not better than Lewis (lets not get into that).

But Dennis not being involved has had a bigger effect. The guy ran a very tight ship, I knew someone working there and the stories were that when Dennis was walking around the place even your desk had to be clean, not even a coffee stain on it. He was very strict, respected, but very strict. He wouldn't tolerate failure and everyone was giving their maximum. Now they seem like ghosts of their former team

But their problems started under Dennis. Hes the one who wanted Honda, hes the one who thought its impossible to compete as a Mercedes customer engine while Redbull is doing it even with an inferior customer engine.

And yet Red Bull is reported to be looking to leave Renault for Honda...

It's not Ron's fault that Honda didn't live up to expectations. I think he's done far more good for the team than bad

Well. Let’s see if it actually happens. But do you think redbull would entertain Honda engines if they could get their hands on Merc ones? I think not.

Downgraded Merc ones. Which means that yes they would entertain to be the Honda "big team" rather than getting Merc second grade engines.

Mercedes is not allowed to downgrade the customer engines. It’s against the rules. The Fia has
clamped down on that this year. Here is an article that mentions it:


https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/will ... r-1011552/


The only reason Redbull doesn’t run Merc engines is because Toto would never allow it.

Going to Honda imo is a very risky move and can turn out to be catastrophic. Honda has yet to have 2 good years in a row. Let’s not forget that in 2016 it appeared they were on their way up only to take a big step back in 2017. Then you add the fact that we are surely getting closer to convergence with these engines anyway so there really is no reason for them to go to a new manufacturer now.

kleefton wrote:Mercedes is not allowed to downgrade the customer engines. It’s against the rules. The Fia has
clamped down on that this year. Here is an article that mentions it:


https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/will ... r-1011552/


The only reason Redbull doesn’t run Merc engines is because Toto would never allow it.

Going to Honda imo is a very risky move and can turn out to be catastrophic. Honda has yet to have 2 good years in a row. Let’s not forget that in 2016 it appeared they were on their way up only to take a big step back in 2017. Then you add the fact that we are surely getting closer to convergence with these engines anyway so there really is no reason for them to go to a new manufacturer now.

I have completely missed the engine parity thing, I'll be honest!

That's fine then. However I can't see Mercedes or Ferrari giving their rivals the tools to beat them, not sure they'd allow it. They'd veto their direct WDC rivals from getting their engines, just as you say Toto wouldn't allow it

mds wrote:

Pullrod wrote: Nobody is 150% committed in this NEW McLaren project

By saying this I think you're doing a great disservice to a lot of fully committed people who put in a lot of hours and give it all their best and are just heartbroken to see their team struggle so much.

Do you honestly think there isn't a large amount of people back at the factory who give it their all? Do you honestly think, for example, the pit crew consists of people who travel around the world, missing their families, just to muck around a bit when push comes to shove?

You can blame the team direction for making bad decisions, sure. You can blame the technical staff for failing to design a good car.

But please don't say "nobody is 150% committed". That's nonsense.

Nobody is 150% committed. What's the problem with 100% in F1, it's the most possible...

dompclarke wrote:

mds wrote:

Pullrod wrote: Nobody is 150% committed in this NEW McLaren project

By saying this I think you're doing a great disservice to a lot of fully committed people who put in a lot of hours and give it all their best and are just heartbroken to see their team struggle so much.

Do you honestly think there isn't a large amount of people back at the factory who give it their all? Do you honestly think, for example, the pit crew consists of people who travel around the world, missing their families, just to muck around a bit when push comes to shove?

You can blame the team direction for making bad decisions, sure. You can blame the technical staff for failing to design a good car.

But please don't say "nobody is 150% committed". That's nonsense.

Nobody is 150% committed. What's the problem with 100% in F1, it's the most possible...

I take it you are aware of the figure of speech and the point that was being made...

Exediron wrote:

Lt. Drebin wrote:I am at lost of words. Only Williams is worse then them. Mclaren was beaten by every other car today.

Only because Alonso DNF'd. Without that, they'd have just been beaten by the Big Three plus Renault and Force India.

Hartley would have also finished ahead of Alonso. Not sure what happened to Haas. Gasly started last and manage to finish ahead of them as well. Renault is the most consistent midfield team.

Mercedes-Benz wrote:

Exediron wrote:Only because Alonso DNF'd. Without that, they'd have just been beaten by the Big Three plus Renault and Force India.

Hartley would have also finished ahead of Alonso. Not sure what happened to Haas. Gasly started last and manage to finish ahead of them as well. Renault is the most consistent midfield team.

Nobody knows where Hartley would have finished, since he DNF'd on lap one. I agree there's a good chance he would have been ahead given the lack of overtaking, but it's by no means a certainty. Gasly was never ahead of Alonso, so he only finished ahead because Alonso didn't finish. Haas was just plain slow for whatever reason, although Grosjean had decent pace considering he started at the back.

I'm not saying McLaren was good, because they certainly weren't. But I do take offense at someone exaggerating the situation to make it sound even worse than it was. If the leading McLaren had finished, they would not have been beaten by everyone but Williams. By that same token, Red Bull was beaten by everyone in Bahrain and Baku. Does that sound right?

Perez too was unlucky as he got hit by Sainz. So that is another driver who would have finished of Alonso. I mean since Gasly had a good race so Hartley had a good chance. Poor guy having a terrible time. This was his chance to shine

Exediron wrote:

Mercedes-Benz wrote:

Exediron wrote:Only because Alonso DNF'd. Without that, they'd have just been beaten by the Big Three plus Renault and Force India.

Hartley would have also finished ahead of Alonso. Not sure what happened to Haas. Gasly started last and manage to finish ahead of them as well. Renault is the most consistent midfield team.

Nobody knows where Hartley would have finished, since he DNF'd on lap one. I agree there's a good chance he would have been ahead given the lack of overtaking, but it's by no means a certainty. Gasly was never ahead of Alonso, so he only finished ahead because Alonso didn't finish. Haas was just plain slow for whatever reason, although Grosjean had decent pace considering he started at the back.

I'm not saying McLaren was good, because they certainly weren't. But I do take offense at someone exaggerating the situation to make it sound even worse than it was. If the leading McLaren had finished, they would not have been beaten by everyone but Williams. By that same token, Red Bull was beaten by everyone in Bahrain and Baku. Does that sound right?

Alonso has a habit of making a car look better than it really is, but even so he spent much of the race battling with Leclerc's Sauber. In Vandoorne's hands the McLaren looked like a backmarker, he finished second to last.

Alonso is the only one making the team look vaguely respectable at the moment, without him I reckon they'd be 8th in the championship.

j man wrote: Alonso is the only one making the team look vaguely respectable at the moment, without him I reckon they'd be 8th in the championship.

Where do we think Zak Brown and Eric Boullier might be looking as a replacement for Alonso as I'm not sure he'll be around for much longer?

Exediron wrote:

oz_karter wrote:The Honda in the Toro Rosso (which is not a fast chassis) seems to be a good performer. The Honda in 2017 was nowhere near as bad as McLaren claimed.

How do you know the Toro Rosso isn't good? They've built pretty strong midfield cars before, such as 2015.

You need to reread what you wrote, they have built pretty strong MIDFIELD cars before.

Pullrod wrote:McLaren(the winning and positive team) died the moment Hamilton went to Mercedes. He took away from Woking the winning mentality, the positivity, the passion and the FANS.

Nobody is 150% committed in this NEW McLaren project and the team is chock-full of mercenaries, impostors and lazy engineers/personnel.

People are seeing it now but I saw it since the beginning but nobody wanted to believe me. They are a failure and only a Radical change(not the engine) can give the McLaren's name some dignity.

And if they want to do Indy or other extra activities, at least they should have the decency to change the team's name to something else.

I would say that was the reason why Hamilton left, he had already sensed that they no longer had the winning mentality and I think it started when Whitmarsh took over.

Pullrod wrote:

kleefton wrote:

Siao7 wrote:

Pullrod wrote:McLaren(the winning and positive team) died the moment Hamilton went to Mercedes. He took away from Woking the winning mentality, the positivity, the passion and the FANS.

Nobody is 150% committed in this NEW McLaren project and the team is chock-full of mercenaries, impostors and lazy engineers/personnel.

People are seeing it now but I saw it since the beginning but nobody wanted to believe me. They are a failure and only a Radical change(not the engine) can give the McLaren's name some dignity.

And if they want to do Indy or other extra activities, at least they should have the decency to change the team's name to something else.

I'd say that Dennis leaving has had the biggest effect on the team. Hamilton left, but teams can survive the drivers leaving, someone else is going to be signed to drive. Arguably they covered that with Alonso, a driver as good if not better than Lewis (lets not get into that).

But Dennis not being involved has had a bigger effect. The guy ran a very tight ship, I knew someone working there and the stories were that when Dennis was walking around the place even your desk had to be clean, not even a coffee stain on it. He was very strict, respected, but very strict. He wouldn't tolerate failure and everyone was giving their maximum. Now they seem like ghosts of their former team

But their problems started under Dennis. Hes the one who wanted Honda, hes the one who thought its impossible to compete as a Mercedes customer engine while Redbull is doing it even with an inferior customer engine.

Exactly. The same guy who went crying to Zetsche to implore him not to sign Hamilton.

Yeah that was quite funny, he said that Hamilton was just another employee and then when he realised Hamilton was leaving he panicked.

Zoue wrote:

Covalent wrote:

Pullrod wrote:

Siao7 wrote:

Pullrod wrote:McLaren(the winning and positive team) died the moment Hamilton went to Mercedes. He took away from Woking the winning mentality, the positivity, the passion and the FANS.

Nobody is 150% committed in this NEW McLaren project and the team is chock-full of mercenaries, impostors and lazy engineers/personnel.

People are seeing it now but I saw it since the beginning but nobody wanted to believe me. They are a failure and only a Radical change(not the engine) can give the McLaren's name some dignity.

And if they want to do Indy or other extra activities, at least they should have the decency to change the team's name to something else.

I'd say that Dennis leaving has had the biggest effect on the team. Hamilton left, but teams can survive the drivers leaving, someone else is going to be signed to drive. Arguably they covered that with Alonso, a driver as good if not better than Lewis (lets not get into that).

But Dennis not being involved has had a bigger effect. The guy ran a very tight ship, I knew someone working there and the stories were that when Dennis was walking around the place even your desk had to be clean, not even a coffee stain on it. He was very strict, respected, but very strict. He wouldn't tolerate failure and everyone was giving their maximum. Now they seem like ghosts of their former team

Alonso is not Hamilton or Vettel as much as you want us to believe.

He is too divisive and not suitable to a long cycle of success.(Read Nico Rosberg latest words on WHY no top team will touch him)
Look at Mercedes. You can bet they will not sleep just to fix their car. Same with Vettel and Ferrari, meanwhile in McLaren they have their head elsewhere and are not walking in the same direction.

Link?

I don't have a link, but they did show a screenshot of Nico's Tweet on Dutch TV. Said something to the effect that no teams want him because of his toxic personality, or words to that effect. Can't remember exactly (may not have used the word toxic, but the message was similar)

Well this is what I keep saying, no doubting he's a great driver though.

Zoue wrote:

kleefton wrote:

Siao7 wrote:

Pullrod wrote:McLaren(the winning and positive team) died the moment Hamilton went to Mercedes. He took away from Woking the winning mentality, the positivity, the passion and the FANS.

Nobody is 150% committed in this NEW McLaren project and the team is chock-full of mercenaries, impostors and lazy engineers/personnel.

People are seeing it now but I saw it since the beginning but nobody wanted to believe me. They are a failure and only a Radical change(not the engine) can give the McLaren's name some dignity.

And if they want to do Indy or other extra activities, at least they should have the decency to change the team's name to something else.

I'd say that Dennis leaving has had the biggest effect on the team. Hamilton left, but teams can survive the drivers leaving, someone else is going to be signed to drive. Arguably they covered that with Alonso, a driver as good if not better than Lewis (lets not get into that).

But Dennis not being involved has had a bigger effect. The guy ran a very tight ship, I knew someone working there and the stories were that when Dennis was walking around the place even your desk had to be clean, not even a coffee stain on it. He was very strict, respected, but very strict. He wouldn't tolerate failure and everyone was giving their maximum. Now they seem like ghosts of their former team

But their problems started under Dennis. Hes the one who wanted Honda, hes the one who thought its impossible to compete as a Mercedes customer engine while Redbull is doing it even with an inferior customer engine.

And yet Red Bull is reported to be looking to leave Renault for Honda...

It's not Ron's fault that Honda didn't live up to expectations. I think he's done far more good for the team than bad

That doesn't change the fact they are competing with a customer engine.

Siao7 wrote:

kleefton wrote:

Zoue wrote:

kleefton wrote:

Siao7 wrote: I'd say that Dennis leaving has had the biggest effect on the team. Hamilton left, but teams can survive the drivers leaving, someone else is going to be signed to drive. Arguably they covered that with Alonso, a driver as good if not better than Lewis (lets not get into that).

But Dennis not being involved has had a bigger effect. The guy ran a very tight ship, I knew someone working there and the stories were that when Dennis was walking around the place even your desk had to be clean, not even a coffee stain on it. He was very strict, respected, but very strict. He wouldn't tolerate failure and everyone was giving their maximum. Now they seem like ghosts of their former team

But their problems started under Dennis. Hes the one who wanted Honda, hes the one who thought its impossible to compete as a Mercedes customer engine while Redbull is doing it even with an inferior customer engine.

And yet Red Bull is reported to be looking to leave Renault for Honda...

It's not Ron's fault that Honda didn't live up to expectations. I think he's done far more good for the team than bad

Well. Let’s see if it actually happens. But do you think redbull would entertain Honda engines if they could get their hands on Merc ones? I think not.

Downgraded Merc ones. Which means that yes they would entertain to be the Honda "big team" rather than getting Merc second grade engines.

So if they can't win with Mercedes engines why do Mercedes refuse to give them engines?

Kev627 wrote:

j man wrote: Alonso is the only one making the team look vaguely respectable at the moment, without him I reckon they'd be 8th in the championship.

Where do we think Zak Brown and Eric Boullier might be looking as a replacement for Alonso as I'm not sure he'll be around for much longer?

Lando Norris

pokerman wrote:

Zoue wrote:

kleefton wrote:

Siao7 wrote:

Pullrod wrote:McLaren(the winning and positive team) died the moment Hamilton went to Mercedes. He took away from Woking the winning mentality, the positivity, the passion and the FANS.

Nobody is 150% committed in this NEW McLaren project and the team is chock-full of mercenaries, impostors and lazy engineers/personnel.

People are seeing it now but I saw it since the beginning but nobody wanted to believe me. They are a failure and only a Radical change(not the engine) can give the McLaren's name some dignity.

And if they want to do Indy or other extra activities, at least they should have the decency to change the team's name to something else.

I'd say that Dennis leaving has had the biggest effect on the team. Hamilton left, but teams can survive the drivers leaving, someone else is going to be signed to drive. Arguably they covered that with Alonso, a driver as good if not better than Lewis (lets not get into that).

But Dennis not being involved has had a bigger effect. The guy ran a very tight ship, I knew someone working there and the stories were that when Dennis was walking around the place even your desk had to be clean, not even a coffee stain on it. He was very strict, respected, but very strict. He wouldn't tolerate failure and everyone was giving their maximum. Now they seem like ghosts of their former team

But their problems started under Dennis. Hes the one who wanted Honda, hes the one who thought its impossible to compete as a Mercedes customer engine while Redbull is doing it even with an inferior customer engine.

And yet Red Bull is reported to be looking to leave Renault for Honda...

It's not Ron's fault that Honda didn't live up to expectations. I think he's done far more good for the team than bad

That doesn't change the fact they are competing with a customer engine.

Relevance?

Zoue wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Zoue wrote:

kleefton wrote:

Siao7 wrote: I'd say that Dennis leaving has had the biggest effect on the team. Hamilton left, but teams can survive the drivers leaving, someone else is going to be signed to drive. Arguably they covered that with Alonso, a driver as good if not better than Lewis (lets not get into that).

But Dennis not being involved has had a bigger effect. The guy ran a very tight ship, I knew someone working there and the stories were that when Dennis was walking around the place even your desk had to be clean, not even a coffee stain on it. He was very strict, respected, but very strict. He wouldn't tolerate failure and everyone was giving their maximum. Now they seem like ghosts of their former team

But their problems started under Dennis. Hes the one who wanted Honda, hes the one who thought its impossible to compete as a Mercedes customer engine while Redbull is doing it even with an inferior customer engine.

And yet Red Bull is reported to be looking to leave Renault for Honda...

It's not Ron's fault that Honda didn't live up to expectations. I think he's done far more good for the team than bad

That doesn't change the fact they are competing with a customer engine.

Relevance?

Relevance is the fact that they are disproving this notion that you can't win with a customer engine, what's holding them back is having the worse customer engine, with Honda I see that as a belief that Honda will overhaul Renault.

pokerman wrote:

Kev627 wrote:

j man wrote: Alonso is the only one making the team look vaguely respectable at the moment, without him I reckon they'd be 8th in the championship.

Where do we think Zak Brown and Eric Boullier might be looking as a replacement for Alonso as I'm not sure he'll be around for much longer?

Lando Norris

Norris has shown lots of potential but he's not ready for F1 yet, and especially not to step into Alonso's shoes. He's not exactly been error-free in F2 this year.

I'm expecting Alonso to quit at the end of the year now that it's clear that there is no prospect of short term success with McLaren. I think Norris is still the best option (assuming he maintains his current form and delivers the F2 title) as a long term prospect but he's not going to deliver what Alonso is delivering right now straight away.

McLaren are not a top team any more. I don't think it'll be long before they're hunting around for pay drivers.

j man wrote:McLaren are not a top team any more. I don't think it'll be long before they're hunting around for pay drivers.

That's not going to happen unless their Bahraini investment dries up. Macca has a budget that sits in the dead zone between the top three and everyone else; they're in no need of paying drivers to keep the lights on.

pokerman wrote:

Zoue wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Zoue wrote: And yet Red Bull is reported to be looking to leave Renault for Honda...

It's not Ron's fault that Honda didn't live up to expectations. I think he's done far more good for the team than bad

That doesn't change the fact they are competing with a customer engine.

Relevance?

Relevance is the fact that they are disproving this notion that you can't win with a customer engine, what's holding them back is having the worse customer engine, with Honda I see that as a belief that Honda will overhaul Renault.

They're not disproving it. If Red Bull thought they could win the title with Renault they'd stay with them. The only advantage of them moving to Honda is to become the works team, otherwise why make the jump?

pokerman wrote:

Siao7 wrote:

kleefton wrote:

Zoue wrote:

kleefton wrote:
But their problems started under Dennis. Hes the one who wanted Honda, hes the one who thought its impossible to compete as a Mercedes customer engine while Redbull is doing it even with an inferior customer engine.

And yet Red Bull is reported to be looking to leave Renault for Honda...

It's not Ron's fault that Honda didn't live up to expectations. I think he's done far more good for the team than bad

Well. Let’s see if it actually happens. But do you think redbull would entertain Honda engines if they could get their hands on Merc ones? I think not.

Downgraded Merc ones. Which means that yes they would entertain to be the Honda "big team" rather than getting Merc second grade engines.

So if they can't win with Mercedes engines why do Mercedes refuse to give them engines?

This question makes no sense to me, what do you mean?

Zoue wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Zoue wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Zoue wrote: And yet Red Bull is reported to be looking to leave Renault for Honda...

It's not Ron's fault that Honda didn't live up to expectations. I think he's done far more good for the team than bad

That doesn't change the fact they are competing with a customer engine.

Relevance?

Relevance is the fact that they are disproving this notion that you can't win with a customer engine, what's holding them back is having the worse customer engine, with Honda I see that as a belief that Honda will overhaul Renault.

They're not disproving it. If Red Bull thought they could win the title with Renault they'd stay with them. The only advantage of them moving to Honda is to become the works team, otherwise why make the jump?

I think I side with pokerman on this one. If they move to Honda it's not because they want to be a works team per se, it's because they don't believe Renault are able to deliver what they need i.e. the fastest engine.

mds wrote:

Zoue wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Zoue wrote:

pokerman wrote: That doesn't change the fact they are competing with a customer engine.

Relevance?

Relevance is the fact that they are disproving this notion that you can't win with a customer engine, what's holding them back is having the worse customer engine, with Honda I see that as a belief that Honda will overhaul Renault.

They're not disproving it. If Red Bull thought they could win the title with Renault they'd stay with them. The only advantage of them moving to Honda is to become the works team, otherwise why make the jump?

I think I side with pokerman on this one. If they move to Honda it's not because they want to be a works team per se, it's because they don't believe Renault are able to deliver what they need i.e. the fastest engine.

I'm not so sure about that. Horner has gone on record in the past to say that you have to have works status to succeed, so it's not like there's no basis to assume it. They no longer have the opportunity to do that with Renault but that does exist with Honda. The moment McLaren terminated their contract with Honda pretty much everybody stated that it was only a matter of time before Red Bull would become Honda's works partner. The only question was when and that depended entirely on how quickly Honda could improve to a point it was viable. It seems this year Honda has finally shown some decent progress and sure enough Red Bull is seriously considering it.

Zoue wrote:

mds wrote:

Zoue wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Zoue wrote: Relevance?

Relevance is the fact that they are disproving this notion that you can't win with a customer engine, what's holding them back is having the worse customer engine, with Honda I see that as a belief that Honda will overhaul Renault.

They're not disproving it. If Red Bull thought they could win the title with Renault they'd stay with them. The only advantage of them moving to Honda is to become the works team, otherwise why make the jump?

I think I side with pokerman on this one. If they move to Honda it's not because they want to be a works team per se, it's because they don't believe Renault are able to deliver what they need i.e. the fastest engine.

I'm not so sure about that. Horner has gone on record in the past to say that you have to have works status to succeed, so it's not like there's no basis to assume it. They no longer have the opportunity to do that with Renault but that does exist with Honda. The moment McLaren terminated their contract with Honda pretty much everybody stated that it was only a matter of time before Red Bull would become Honda's works partner. The only question was when and that depended entirely on how quickly Honda could improve to a point it was viable. It seems this year Honda has finally shown some decent progress and sure enough Red Bull is seriously considering it.

It's not that I dispute that there aren't tangible benefits to a works status - I definitely think that's the case. But I do think (contrary to a while ago) that with the proper setup (mainly budget and (technical) staff) a team can beat the works team.

Thinking of RBR with a Ferrari engine, e.g.. Do we put it past RBR to defeat Ferrari and collect a title? I think they'd be capable of it.

j man wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Kev627 wrote:

j man wrote: Alonso is the only one making the team look vaguely respectable at the moment, without him I reckon they'd be 8th in the championship.

Where do we think Zak Brown and Eric Boullier might be looking as a replacement for Alonso as I'm not sure he'll be around for much longer?

Lando Norris

Norris has shown lots of potential but he's not ready for F1 yet, and especially not to step into Alonso's shoes. He's not exactly been error-free in F2 this year.

I'm expecting Alonso to quit at the end of the year now that it's clear that there is no prospect of short term success with McLaren. I think Norris is still the best option (assuming he maintains his current form and delivers the F2 title) as a long term prospect but he's not going to deliver what Alonso is delivering right now straight away.

McLaren are not a top team any more. I don't think it'll be long before they're hunting around for pay drivers.

He might not be able to fill Alonso's shoes but how is he not ready for F1?

You state that McLaren are no longer a top team so how would they get a top driver to fill Alonso's shoes in the first place?

Zoue wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Zoue wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Zoue wrote: And yet Red Bull is reported to be looking to leave Renault for Honda...

It's not Ron's fault that Honda didn't live up to expectations. I think he's done far more good for the team than bad

That doesn't change the fact they are competing with a customer engine.

Relevance?

Relevance is the fact that they are disproving this notion that you can't win with a customer engine, what's holding them back is having the worse customer engine, with Honda I see that as a belief that Honda will overhaul Renault.

They're not disproving it. If Red Bull thought they could win the title with Renault they'd stay with them. The only advantage of them moving to Honda is to become the works team, otherwise why make the jump?

That has nothing to do with being a customer team but with the Renault engine itself being inferior.