[MERGED] McLaren's wearing no clothes? / issues sans Honda

Exediron · Post by **Exediron** » Fri May 11, 2018 3:25 am

wolfticket wrote:New nose

I love it! This is what Macca should be about - trying the next new crazy silver bullet idea to get back to the front!

Hopefully it works, too...

rodH · Post by **rodH** » Thu May 24, 2018 9:39 pm

It is pretty interesting to see that McLarens deficits aren't much different in a Renault than they were in a Honda. The other thing that is interesting to see is that TR isn't all that far behind Mc. Kind of have the feeling that if TR were using RB chassis and drivers that they would be ahead of McLaren. As a Nando fan, it is frustrating to see that team just flounder.

Mercedes-Benz · Post by **Mercedes-Benz** » Fri May 25, 2018 1:48 am

I thought this was going to first race this year where Mcalren will be 4th best team because this track should suit them and they have pretty good track record here. But the midfield is very close. Drivers can make a difference on this track so Mclaren will be hoping both do good laps and make it into Q3.

Lotus49 · Post by **Lotus49** » Fri May 25, 2018 1:52 am

Apparently they have said they have an issue with slow speed corners and by the S2 times it backs it up so I'm not expecting miracles but if Alonso or Vandoorne nail it then I think they'll sneak in to Q3.

Actually think Stoff looked better today.

Shia Luck · Post by **Shia Luck** » Fri May 25, 2018 2:00 am

I agree. You can only #keepTheFaith so long,

Quite apart from the "We have a RB equal chassis" BS which has been comprehensively debunked, this year alone we have had, "Late decision to switch to Renault didn't put us behind" and "In Spain we will introduce the car we should've had in Melbourne, but was delayed cos the PU change" and so far in Monaco they are the slowest Renault powered car-ish.

Have fun

Exediron · Post by **Exediron** » Fri May 25, 2018 2:50 am

I don't agree about the deficit being similar - it's not.

That said, it's pretty clear that at least this chassis is not up there with the top three teams, and wouldn't be no matter what engine you put in it. This year was McLaren's big chance to prove that they were just being held back by the Honda engine, and - sad to say, as a Macca fan - they haven't done that.

Teddy007 · Post by **Teddy007** » Fri May 25, 2018 8:25 am

rodH wrote:It is pretty interesting to see that McLarens deficits aren't much different in a Renault than they were in a Honda. The other thing that is interesting to see is that TR isn't all that far behind Mc. Kind of have the feeling that if TR were using RB chassis and drivers that they would be ahead of McLaren. As a Nando fan, it is frustrating to see that team just flounder.

"Isn't that far behind"... but they are.... considering this time last year they were competing with each other for measly points?

Now Mclaren are consistently fighting and have already gained more points with Renault than Honda. Not sure why people are nit picking holes with Mclaren.. they ARE better off with a Renault.. not to mention they have already had less failures...

The gap between 'the rest' of the field was small and is small... that's the nature of the other teams.. Honda wasn't the cause of all the issues but considering where Mclaren are now... they are better off and that is a fact.

13 points to 40 "not far behind"... that's like saying Mclaren are not far behind Ferrari... they are.. Toro's are sitting where Mclaren would be right now.. or maybe Force India if they were lucky.

dompclarke · Post by **dompclarke** » Fri May 25, 2018 11:09 am

Teddy007 wrote:
rodH wrote:It is pretty interesting to see that McLarens deficits aren't much different in a Renault than they were in a Honda. The other thing that is interesting to see is that TR isn't all that far behind Mc. Kind of have the feeling that if TR were using RB chassis and drivers that they would be ahead of McLaren. As a Nando fan, it is frustrating to see that team just flounder.
"Isn't that far behind"... but they are.... considering this time last year they were competing with each other for measly points?

Now Mclaren are consistently fighting and have already gained more points with Renault than Honda. Not sure why people are nit picking holes with Mclaren.. they ARE better off with a Renault.. not to mention they have already had less failures...

The gap between 'the rest' of the field was small and is small... that's the nature of the other teams.. Honda wasn't the cause of all the issues but considering where Mclaren are now... they are better off and that is a fact.

13 points to 40 "not far behind"... that's like saying Mclaren are not far behind Ferrari... they are.. Toro's are sitting where Mclaren would be right now.. or maybe Force India if they were lucky.

Are they better off than they would have been with this years Honda and not having to delay packages due to changing engines though?

Whether they are better off with Renault currently or not, I'm still of the opinion they would have been better sticking with Honda till at least 2021 than going with Renault.

Teddy007 · Post by **Teddy007** » Fri May 25, 2018 2:04 pm

dompclarke wrote: Are they better off than they would have been with this years Honda and not having to delay packages due to changing engines though?
Whether they are better off with Renault currently or not, I'm still of the opinion they would have been better sticking with Honda till at least 2021 than going with Renault.

I just look at what matters:

Alonso 2017 17 points.
Alonso 2018 32 points.

Mclaren 2017 30 points.
Mclaren 2018 40 points.

Honda have improved, no doubt about that (should think so with it being 4th year). Mclaren have gone from 9th to 4th (last place was a team that scored points twice).

Mclaren have gone above Toro, Hass and Force India since the engine change. Was all that down to their chassis? or the engine? or both.

Only thing Mclaren did wrong.. was state that their chassis was the best... I didn't believe it.. and I hope no one did either. I didn't expect them to magically face the front runners.. not when those teams would improve too. The progress made with Honda was too small over 3 years. Best Honda year had 76 points.. Mclaren are on course to beat it by a margin.

I'm not saying Honda were 100% at fault.. not their issue if a gearbox goes or breaks etc.. it is when the engine continued to fail.

Mclaren are better off in 2018 under Renault and a true judge would be to see how RBR copes with Honda (if it happens) and how Mclaren/Renault perform over 3 years.

pokerman · Post by **pokerman** » Fri May 25, 2018 3:09 pm

dompclarke wrote:
Teddy007 wrote:
rodH wrote:It is pretty interesting to see that McLarens deficits aren't much different in a Renault than they were in a Honda. The other thing that is interesting to see is that TR isn't all that far behind Mc. Kind of have the feeling that if TR were using RB chassis and drivers that they would be ahead of McLaren. As a Nando fan, it is frustrating to see that team just flounder.
"Isn't that far behind"... but they are.... considering this time last year they were competing with each other for measly points?

Now Mclaren are consistently fighting and have already gained more points with Renault than Honda. Not sure why people are nit picking holes with Mclaren.. they ARE better off with a Renault.. not to mention they have already had less failures...

The gap between 'the rest' of the field was small and is small... that's the nature of the other teams.. Honda wasn't the cause of all the issues but considering where Mclaren are now... they are better off and that is a fact.

13 points to 40 "not far behind"... that's like saying Mclaren are not far behind Ferrari... they are.. Toro's are sitting where Mclaren would be right now.. or maybe Force India if they were lucky.
Are they better off than they would have been with this years Honda and not having to delay packages due to changing engines though?

Whether they are better off with Renault currently or not, I'm still of the opinion they would have been better sticking with Honda till at least 2021 than going with Renault.

They wouldn't be better with Honda if they continued to put limitations on the design of the Honda engine which presently STR are not doing.

Lotus49 · Post by **Lotus49** » Fri May 25, 2018 4:14 pm

They allowed structural changes to the engines in every winter of the partnership so I don't see that being much of an issue. It's an interesting question whether they'd be better off.

Plus's for staying...

Works status
50-100m added to Budget
Full chassis dyno access
Likely no rear suspension change
Likely they can get the Spain new nose concept car to Winter Testing with not having to do an engine and suspension swap at the same time.
Not 12 weeks behind rivals

Negative's

No change still hides chassis deficiencies.
A 10-20bhp deficit in race trim to what they have now and a worse ERS and still 40-50 gap to the leaders.
Poor working relationship
Likely no Alonso
Potential brain drain
Likely less sponsor interest including a bespoke fuel supplier

Performance wise I think they could've brought a better chassis if they stayed, ironically enough, but the team may still have been in a worse overall spot because of losing point hoover Alonso and any brain drain that departure sparked.

I think it's close though as maybe Alonso doesn't leave through lack of options or they kiss and make up.

Mercedes-Benz · Post by **Mercedes-Benz** » Fri May 25, 2018 5:32 pm

If for some reason they fail to be in Q3 tomorrow I think this will be a disaster for Mclaren. Because this is suppose to one of their best tracks along with Hungary and Singapore. I think Honda and TR are content. They are working much better. Moreover it does not matter if they finish 7th best or 9th best team. The dilemma would be that reliability is important to score points but Honda should probably go for performance. 3 engine rule obviously is not helping them.

dompclarke · Post by **dompclarke** » Fri May 25, 2018 5:35 pm

Teddy007 wrote:
dompclarke wrote: Are they better off than they would have been with this years Honda and not having to delay packages due to changing engines though?
Whether they are better off with Renault currently or not, I'm still of the opinion they would have been better sticking with Honda till at least 2021 than going with Renault.
I just look at what matters:

Alonso 2017 17 points.
Alonso 2018 32 points.

Mclaren 2017 30 points.
Mclaren 2018 40 points.

What matters is the unanswerable question of how they'd have faired with the Honda in the back this year compared to the Renault.
You admit the Honda has improved so comparing to last year doesn't cut it!

Post by **Mod Aqua** » Fri May 25, 2018 6:49 pm

I have merged these threads as they were basically discussing the same thing.

rodH · Post by **rodH** » Fri May 25, 2018 8:26 pm

Shia Luck wrote:I agree. You can only #keepTheFaith so long,

.......and so far in Monaco they are the slowest Renault powered car-ish.

Have fun

With Fernando at the wheel!!!

ReservoirDog · Post by **ReservoirDog** » Sat Jun 09, 2018 6:44 pm

1.5 secs behind RBR
1.0 secs behind Renault
0.3 secs behind Honda-powered below-average driver Hartley
0.1 secs behind a Sauber

Don't I just love McLaren.

sandman1347 · Post by **sandman1347** » Sat Jun 09, 2018 7:43 pm

ReservoirDog wrote:1.5 secs behind RBR
1.0 secs behind Renault
0.3 secs behind Honda-powered below-average driver Hartley
0.1 secs behind a Sauber

Don't I just love McLaren.

Pretty abysmal. The car is just not too good and it seems they are losing out in the dev race too. A lot of bad signs from this team in 2018. They are proving themselves to be substantially inferior to the true top teams in today's F1.

KingVoid · Post by **KingVoid** » Sat Jun 09, 2018 8:13 pm

It’s easy to forget that in 2013 and 2014 McLaren were already a midfield team before the switch to Honda engines. Ever since Tim Goss took over their cars have been underwhelming.

sandman1347 · Post by **sandman1347** » Sat Jun 09, 2018 8:29 pm

KingVoid wrote:It’s easy to forget that in 2013 and 2014 McLaren were already a midfield team before the switch to Honda engines. Ever since Tim Goss took over their cars have been underwhelming.

Their budget is also only about half of what Mercedes and Ferrari spend. They are not a top team.

AravJ · Post by **AravJ** » Sat Jun 09, 2018 9:09 pm

sandman1347 wrote:
KingVoid wrote:It’s easy to forget that in 2013 and 2014 McLaren were already a midfield team before the switch to Honda engines. Ever since Tim Goss took over their cars have been underwhelming.
Their budget is also only about half of what Mercedes and Ferrari spend. They are not a top team.

They gave up a big chunk of their budget because they thought they were a top team though.

Seanie · Post by **Seanie** » Sun Jun 10, 2018 9:40 pm

KingVoid wrote:It’s easy to forget that in 2013 and 2014 McLaren were already a midfield team before the switch to Honda engines. Ever since Tim Goss took over their cars have been underwhelming.

Yeah, they did a great job convincing everyone that honda was the root of all their problems that most people forget that the lack of pace predated hondas return.

I feel most sorry for Alonso. It looks like hes doomed to see out the twilight of his career in a disappointing McLaren, just like Button did.

Lt. Drebin · Post by **Lt. Drebin** » Sun Jun 10, 2018 10:57 pm

I am at lost of words. Only Williams is worse then them. Mclaren was beaten by every other car today.

Exediron · Post by **Exediron** » Sun Jun 10, 2018 11:23 pm

Lt. Drebin wrote:I am at lost of words. Only Williams is worse then them. Mclaren was beaten by every other car today.

Only because Alonso DNF'd. Without that, they'd have just been beaten by the Big Three plus Renault and Force India.

Paolo_Lasardi · Post by **Paolo_Lasardi** » Sun Jun 10, 2018 11:25 pm

McLaren is slow and unreliable. What a disaster.

kleefton · Post by **kleefton** » Mon Jun 11, 2018 1:17 am

Seanie wrote:
KingVoid wrote:It’s easy to forget that in 2013 and 2014 McLaren were already a midfield team before the switch to Honda engines. Ever since Tim Goss took over their cars have been underwhelming.
Yeah, they did a great job convincing everyone that honda was the root of all their problems that most people forget that the lack of pace predated hondas return.

I feel most sorry for Alonso. It looks like hes doomed to see out the twilight of his career in a disappointing McLaren, just like Button did.

Alonso should leave. There is just nothing for him to gain over at Mclaren. Who knows, maybe Lewis will ultimately retire and I'm sure he would be a prime candidate to replace him.

Now watch as Mercedes is dragged down the midfield as Alonso takes the helm

oz_karter · Post by **oz_karter** » Mon Jun 11, 2018 2:22 am

How sad to see McLaren having no answers for their lack of pace. Once such a strong team.

The fact neither Alonso nor Vandoorne seem to have any idea why the car is slow suggests it's not a balance issue, but just an all round lack of grip.

The chassis is bad. The Renault is clearly capable of more, as shown by Red Bull.

The Honda in the Toro Rosso (which is not a fast chassis) seems to be a good performer. The Honda in 2017 was nowhere near as bad as McLaren claimed.

Alonso will leave, they can't blame the engine anymore. They have nothing to hide behind and seemingly no direction to move up the grid.

Exediron · Post by **Exediron** » Mon Jun 11, 2018 2:41 am

oz_karter wrote:The Honda in the Toro Rosso (which is not a fast chassis) seems to be a good performer. The Honda in 2017 was nowhere near as bad as McLaren claimed.

How do you know the Toro Rosso isn't good? They've built pretty strong midfield cars before, such as 2015.

mikeyg123 · Post by **mikeyg123** » Mon Jun 11, 2018 4:37 am

oz_karter wrote:How sad to see McLaren having no answers for their lack of pace. Once such a strong team.

The fact neither Alonso nor Vandoorne seem to have any idea why the car is slow suggests it's not a balance issue, but just an all round lack of grip.

The chassis is bad. The Renault is clearly capable of more, as shown by Red Bull.

The Honda in the Toro Rosso (which is not a fast chassis) seems to be a good performer. The Honda in 2017 was nowhere near as bad as McLaren claimed.

Alonso will leave, they can't blame the engine anymore. They have nothing to hide behind and seemingly no direction to move up the grid.

I thin the STR-Honda package is a good one. I think it may be being let down by the drivers. Look at what Gasly could do with it in Bahrain where he is a specialist.

KingVoid · Post by **KingVoid** » Mon Jun 11, 2018 6:08 am

Apparently Damon Hill said that McLaren’s brand name is as strong as Ferrari’s.

Zoue · Post by **Zoue** » Mon Jun 11, 2018 6:11 am

KingVoid wrote:Apparently Damon Hill said that McLaren’s brand name is as strong as Ferrari’s.

I think it was not so long ago. It's been severely weakened recently

mds · Post by **mds** » Mon Jun 11, 2018 8:22 am

Exediron wrote:
oz_karter wrote:The Honda in the Toro Rosso (which is not a fast chassis) seems to be a good performer. The Honda in 2017 was nowhere near as bad as McLaren claimed.
How do you know the Toro Rosso isn't good? They've built pretty strong midfield cars before, such as 2015.

The 2016 chassis was pretty handy as well. It was at FI level at the beginning of the season but as the season went on, the disadvantage of an outdated PU with no more updates obviously hampered them.

Sutton · Post by **Sutton** » Mon Jun 11, 2018 9:33 am

I think we are quickly heading to seeing McLaren and Williams, prop up the grid.

FrusEldar · Post by **FrusEldar** » Mon Jun 11, 2018 5:53 pm

The whole thing is a big pile of unmitigated feces with no redeeming features whatsoever.

McLaren has become an also ran and has no idea how to turn things around.

I am not holding my breath for anything.

j man · Post by **j man** » Mon Jun 11, 2018 9:22 pm

The Canadian GP weekend was an embarrassment. How some people here can continue to defend McLaren's performances this season is beyond me. They barely looked any faster than Sauber.

paul_gmb · Post by **paul_gmb** » Tue Jun 12, 2018 6:52 am

Seeing Mclarens struggles and at the same time the high level of their road cars, it just goes to show at what level F1 is, and how low the level of the auto industry is.

Maybe it's just me, but as time passes it gets harder and harder for the average Joe to understand just how ultra competitive F1 is or can be.

Coming back to Mclaren, they have to go crazy on design and technical aspects. Otherwise, they just risk falling down the grid. It's pretty clear that their factory simulation corelates with on track performance. But when that correlates and you still fall back, that means something is wrong in the factory.

It's a strange situation. I would still have my money on Ron having a better chance of turning things around.

Pullrod · Post by **Pullrod** » Tue Jun 12, 2018 8:42 am

McLaren(the winning and positive team) died the moment Hamilton went to Mercedes. He took away from Woking the winning mentality, the positivity, the passion and the FANS.

Nobody is 150% committed in this NEW McLaren project and the team is chock-full of mercenaries, impostors and lazy engineers/personnel.

People are seeing it now but I saw it since the beginning but nobody wanted to believe me. They are a failure and only a Radical change(not the engine) can give the McLaren's name some dignity.

And if they want to do Indy or other extra activities, at least they should have the decency to change the team's name to something else.

Siao7 · Post by **Siao7** » Tue Jun 12, 2018 9:57 am

Pullrod wrote:McLaren(the winning and positive team) died the moment Hamilton went to Mercedes. He took away from Woking the winning mentality, the positivity, the passion and the FANS.

Nobody is 150% committed in this NEW McLaren project and the team is chock-full of mercenaries, impostors and lazy engineers/personnel.

People are seeing it now but I saw it since the beginning but nobody wanted to believe me. They are a failure and only a Radical change(not the engine) can give the McLaren's name some dignity.

And if they want to do Indy or other extra activities, at least they should have the decency to change the team's name to something else.

I'd say that Dennis leaving has had the biggest effect on the team. Hamilton left, but teams can survive the drivers leaving, someone else is going to be signed to drive. Arguably they covered that with Alonso, a driver as good if not better than Lewis (lets not get into that).

But Dennis not being involved has had a bigger effect. The guy ran a very tight ship, I knew someone working there and the stories were that when Dennis was walking around the place even your desk had to be clean, not even a coffee stain on it. He was very strict, respected, but very strict. He wouldn't tolerate failure and everyone was giving their maximum. Now they seem like ghosts of their former team

mds · Post by **mds** » Tue Jun 12, 2018 10:10 am

Pullrod wrote: Nobody is 150% committed in this NEW McLaren project

By saying this I think you're doing a great disservice to a lot of fully committed people who put in a lot of hours and give it all their best and are just heartbroken to see their team struggle so much.

Do you honestly think there isn't a large amount of people back at the factory who give it their all? Do you honestly think, for example, the pit crew consists of people who travel around the world, missing their families, just to muck around a bit when push comes to shove?

You can blame the team direction for making bad decisions, sure. You can blame the technical staff for failing to design a good car.

But please don't say "nobody is 150% committed". That's nonsense.

Sutton · Post by **Sutton** » Tue Jun 12, 2018 10:42 am

Siao7 wrote:
Pullrod wrote:McLaren(the winning and positive team) died the moment Hamilton went to Mercedes. He took away from Woking the winning mentality, the positivity, the passion and the FANS.

Nobody is 150% committed in this NEW McLaren project and the team is chock-full of mercenaries, impostors and lazy engineers/personnel.

People are seeing it now but I saw it since the beginning but nobody wanted to believe me. They are a failure and only a Radical change(not the engine) can give the McLaren's name some dignity.

And if they want to do Indy or other extra activities, at least they should have the decency to change the team's name to something else.
I'd say that Dennis leaving has had the biggest effect on the team. Hamilton left, but teams can survive the drivers leaving, someone else is going to be signed to drive. Arguably they covered that with Alonso, a driver as good if not better than Lewis (lets not get into that).

But Dennis not being involved has had a bigger effect. The guy ran a very tight ship, I knew someone working there and the stories were that when Dennis was walking around the place even your desk had to be clean, not even a coffee stain on it. He was very strict, respected, but very strict. He wouldn't tolerate failure and everyone was giving their maximum. Now they seem like ghosts of their former team

I think you are spot on. Similar story to Williams. Once Frank and Patrick Head got older and less involved, Williams slipped down the pecking order.

Zoue · Post by **Zoue** » Tue Jun 12, 2018 10:45 am

Sutton wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Pullrod wrote:McLaren(the winning and positive team) died the moment Hamilton went to Mercedes. He took away from Woking the winning mentality, the positivity, the passion and the FANS.

Nobody is 150% committed in this NEW McLaren project and the team is chock-full of mercenaries, impostors and lazy engineers/personnel.

People are seeing it now but I saw it since the beginning but nobody wanted to believe me. They are a failure and only a Radical change(not the engine) can give the McLaren's name some dignity.

And if they want to do Indy or other extra activities, at least they should have the decency to change the team's name to something else.
I'd say that Dennis leaving has had the biggest effect on the team. Hamilton left, but teams can survive the drivers leaving, someone else is going to be signed to drive. Arguably they covered that with Alonso, a driver as good if not better than Lewis (lets not get into that).

But Dennis not being involved has had a bigger effect. The guy ran a very tight ship, I knew someone working there and the stories were that when Dennis was walking around the place even your desk had to be clean, not even a coffee stain on it. He was very strict, respected, but very strict. He wouldn't tolerate failure and everyone was giving their maximum. Now they seem like ghosts of their former team
I think you are spot on. Similar story to Williams. Once Frank and Patrick Head got older and less involved, Williams slipped down the pecking order.

Yeah I'd agree. RD was McLaren and they are not quite the same team without him.