No 5th Engine After All?

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Zoue
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No 5th Engine After All?

Post by Zoue »

It seems that Mercedes may have vetoed the expected increase in engine allowance:

http://www.grandprix247.com/2015/05/05/ ... e-in-2015/

AravJ
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Re: No 5th Engine After All?

Post by AravJ »

Well I don't think it would make a difference.
For the drivers that really need it like Ricciardo, one more engine is pointless. He needs 5 more.
An extra engine will only really help Nico, and Lewis for the championship battle later in the year where a fresher engine can be the advantage.

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Re: No 5th Engine After All?

Post by F1Tyrant »

It makes sense. If they allow the 5th engine then all the reliability upgrades Mercedes have made will be in vain. Ferrari have the most to gain given they used new engines in Bahrain to try and get a performance advantage.

Ferrari gambled and now will only have 2 post-Canada upgraded engines rather than 3. Mercedes will push to upgrade their engine for Monaco to have an advantage during the European rounds.

Can Ferrari upgrade the older engines, does anyone know?

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Re: No 5th Engine After All?

Post by Zoue »

F1Tyrant wrote:It makes sense. If they allow the 5th engine then all the reliability upgrades Mercedes have made will be in vain. Ferrari have the most to gain given they used new engines in Bahrain to try and get a performance advantage.

Ferrari gambled and now will only have 2 post-Canada upgraded engines rather than 3. Mercedes will push to upgrade their engine for Monaco to have an advantage during the European rounds.

Can Ferrari upgrade the older engines, does anyone know?
I read Barcelona is reportedly Kimi's first new engine: wasn't aware Seb had already had a new one?

I'm pretty sure that older engines may not be upgraded (i.e. once they are used, they become homologated), but I heard that Ferrari are expecting a big power boost this race. Does that mean Seb can't have it then if he's already changed engine?

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Re: No 5th Engine After All?

Post by Zoue »

F1Tyrant wrote: Mercedes will push to upgrade their engine for Monaco to have an advantage during the European rounds.
I don't think an upgraded engine would be any advantage at Monaco. They'd be better off using an older one there as it would be a waste otherwise

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Re: No 5th Engine After All?

Post by Zoue »

I can't find a breakdown, but according to this report neither Ferrari nor Mercedes had changed any engine up to and including the Bahrain Grand Prix, so they would both appear to be in the same boat
At the start of the season Renault had available 12 of the maximum 32 development tokens to use, Ferrari 10, Honda 9 and Mercedes 7. It is not known how many tokens Renault and Honda have used so far in the various new power units they have brought for their drivers in the first four races, but it is known that Ferrari and Sauber its customer were still on their first engine as of Bahrain Grand Prix as were the four Mercedes-powered teams. So one would expect a development step soon on Power Unit two for them, for Spain or Monaco.

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Re: No 5th Engine After All?

Post by Zoue »

Question for anyone: do the teams have to use the engines sequentially? I.E. if they introduce a new engine for Barcelona, could they revert to an older one for Monaco, where ultimate power is less of an advantage (and thereby save wear on the newer engine), or do they have to effectively chuck the older one in the bin?

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Re: No 5th Engine After All?

Post by Herb »

Zoue wrote:Question for anyone: do the teams have to use the engines sequentially? I.E. if they introduce a new engine for Barcelona, could they revert to an older one for Monaco, where ultimate power is less of an advantage (and thereby save wear on the newer engine), or do they have to effectively chuck the older one in the bin?
I can't see how anyone can stop them.

I'm sure they cycled through them last year - but then they didn't have the complication of tokens being used up on new engines through the season.

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Re: No 5th Engine After All?

Post by Zoue »

Herb wrote:
Zoue wrote:Question for anyone: do the teams have to use the engines sequentially? I.E. if they introduce a new engine for Barcelona, could they revert to an older one for Monaco, where ultimate power is less of an advantage (and thereby save wear on the newer engine), or do they have to effectively chuck the older one in the bin?
I can't see how anyone can stop them.

I'm sure they cycled through them last year - but then they didn't have the complication of tokens being used up on new engines through the season.
If they wanted to it would be fairly easy. They have to allow the FIA access to everything to ensure they're not e.g. using an extra component they shouldn't. I don't see that as an obstacle. I just wondered whether introducing an upgraded engine would render the others obsolete (due to only allowing one homologation of engine at a time)

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Re: No 5th Engine After All?

Post by Laura23 »

Zoue wrote:Question for anyone: do the teams have to use the engines sequentially? I.E. if they introduce a new engine for Barcelona, could they revert to an older one for Monaco, where ultimate power is less of an advantage (and thereby save wear on the newer engine), or do they have to effectively chuck the older one in the bin?
They can and do cycle the engines. For example they may use the Monaco engine again at somewhere like Spa since it hasn't had much strain on it, or they may use an engine in Monaco they already used in Oz and Bahrain etc.
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Re: No 5th Engine After All?

Post by moby »

I think Renault can thank the Helmet for that. Payback?

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Re: No 5th Engine After All?

Post by pokerman »

Zoue wrote:It seems that Mercedes may have vetoed the expected increase in engine allowance:

http://www.grandprix247.com/2015/05/05/ ... e-in-2015/
I find that disappointing but I guess understandable from Mercedes if they feel it might give them an advantage, maybe they can make it 5 engines for next year?
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Re: No 5th Engine After All?

Post by Zoue »

pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:It seems that Mercedes may have vetoed the expected increase in engine allowance:

http://www.grandprix247.com/2015/05/05/ ... e-in-2015/
I find that disappointing but I guess understandable from Mercedes if they feel it might give them an advantage, maybe they can make it 5 engines for next year?
I doubt it. I believe the rationale behind adding an extra engine was the potential reliability issues with making so many changes this year. Next year will have far fewer, so there would be no reason to increase the number of engines. I think!

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Re: No 5th Engine After All?

Post by pokerman »

Zoue wrote:
F1Tyrant wrote:It makes sense. If they allow the 5th engine then all the reliability upgrades Mercedes have made will be in vain. Ferrari have the most to gain given they used new engines in Bahrain to try and get a performance advantage.

Ferrari gambled and now will only have 2 post-Canada upgraded engines rather than 3. Mercedes will push to upgrade their engine for Monaco to have an advantage during the European rounds.

Can Ferrari upgrade the older engines, does anyone know?
I read Barcelona is reportedly Kimi's first new engine: wasn't aware Seb had already had a new one?

I'm pretty sure that older engines may not be upgraded (i.e. once they are used, they become homologated), but I heard that Ferrari are expecting a big power boost this race. Does that mean Seb can't have it then if he's already changed engine?
Yes you are right.

If Vettel already has had a new engine then I think that means that Kimi has an engine advantage for the next few races.
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Re: No 5th Engine After All?

Post by pokerman »

Zoue wrote:Question for anyone: do the teams have to use the engines sequentially? I.E. if they introduce a new engine for Barcelona, could they revert to an older one for Monaco, where ultimate power is less of an advantage (and thereby save wear on the newer engine), or do they have to effectively chuck the older one in the bin?
They can still use the older one, in fact they probably would still use it on Fridays
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Re: No 5th Engine After All?

Post by pokerman »

Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:It seems that Mercedes may have vetoed the expected increase in engine allowance:

http://www.grandprix247.com/2015/05/05/ ... e-in-2015/
I find that disappointing but I guess understandable from Mercedes if they feel it might give them an advantage, maybe they can make it 5 engines for next year?
I doubt it. I believe the rationale behind adding an extra engine was the potential reliability issues with making so many changes this year. Next year will have far fewer, so there would be no reason to increase the number of engines. I think!
Well I think the actual rationale is an engine for every 4 races so if they have 20 races then it's 5 engines, this year they just fell short with 19 races.
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Re: No 5th Engine After All?

Post by mds »

pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:It seems that Mercedes may have vetoed the expected increase in engine allowance:

http://www.grandprix247.com/2015/05/05/ ... e-in-2015/
I find that disappointing but I guess understandable from Mercedes if they feel it might give them an advantage, maybe they can make it 5 engines for next year?
I doubt it. I believe the rationale behind adding an extra engine was the potential reliability issues with making so many changes this year. Next year will have far fewer, so there would be no reason to increase the number of engines. I think!
Well I think the actual rationale is an engine for every 4 races so if they have 20 races then it's 5 engines, this year they just fell short with 19 races.
That's not correct. Even if Germany would have gone through, following the rules there would still have been only 4 PU's allowed.

At the end of last year it emerged that through the introduction of the Korean GP on the calendar, we would have a calendar with 21 races. In that case an extra PU could be allocated as per the rules.
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Re: No 5th Engine After All?

Post by pokerman »

mds wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:It seems that Mercedes may have vetoed the expected increase in engine allowance:

http://www.grandprix247.com/2015/05/05/ ... e-in-2015/
I find that disappointing but I guess understandable from Mercedes if they feel it might give them an advantage, maybe they can make it 5 engines for next year?
I doubt it. I believe the rationale behind adding an extra engine was the potential reliability issues with making so many changes this year. Next year will have far fewer, so there would be no reason to increase the number of engines. I think!
Well I think the actual rationale is an engine for every 4 races so if they have 20 races then it's 5 engines, this year they just fell short with 19 races.
That's not correct. Even if Germany would have gone through, following the rules there would still have been only 4 PU's allowed.

At the end of last year it emerged that through the introduction of the Korean GP on the calendar, we would have a calendar with 21 races. In that case an extra PU could be allocated as per the rules.
Ah right I got that wrong it's an engine for every 5 races
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Re: No 5th Engine After All?

Post by imbrugliaboy »

Zoue wrote:I can't find a breakdown, but according to this report neither Ferrari nor Mercedes had changed any engine up to and including the Bahrain Grand Prix, so they would both appear to be in the same boat
At the start of the season Renault had available 12 of the maximum 32 development tokens to use, Ferrari 10, Honda 9 and Mercedes 7. It is not known how many tokens Renault and Honda have used so far in the various new power units they have brought for their drivers in the first four races, but it is known that Ferrari and Sauber its customer were still on their first engine as of Bahrain Grand Prix as were the four Mercedes-powered teams. So one would expect a development step soon on Power Unit two for them, for Spain or Monaco.
http://www.fia.com/sites/default/files/ ... engine.pdf

it seems the Ferraris did use a new ICE.
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Re: No 5th Engine After All?

Post by pokerman »

imbrugliaboy wrote:
Zoue wrote:I can't find a breakdown, but according to this report neither Ferrari nor Mercedes had changed any engine up to and including the Bahrain Grand Prix, so they would both appear to be in the same boat
At the start of the season Renault had available 12 of the maximum 32 development tokens to use, Ferrari 10, Honda 9 and Mercedes 7. It is not known how many tokens Renault and Honda have used so far in the various new power units they have brought for their drivers in the first four races, but it is known that Ferrari and Sauber its customer were still on their first engine as of Bahrain Grand Prix as were the four Mercedes-powered teams. So one would expect a development step soon on Power Unit two for them, for Spain or Monaco.
http://www.fia.com/sites/default/files/ ... engine.pdf

it seems the Ferraris did use a new ICE.
Another reason for Mercedes vetoing the 5 engines then?
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Re: No 5th Engine After All?

Post by Black_Flag_11 »

pokerman wrote:
imbrugliaboy wrote:
Zoue wrote:I can't find a breakdown, but according to this report neither Ferrari nor Mercedes had changed any engine up to and including the Bahrain Grand Prix, so they would both appear to be in the same boat
At the start of the season Renault had available 12 of the maximum 32 development tokens to use, Ferrari 10, Honda 9 and Mercedes 7. It is not known how many tokens Renault and Honda have used so far in the various new power units they have brought for their drivers in the first four races, but it is known that Ferrari and Sauber its customer were still on their first engine as of Bahrain Grand Prix as were the four Mercedes-powered teams. So one would expect a development step soon on Power Unit two for them, for Spain or Monaco.
http://www.fia.com/sites/default/files/ ... engine.pdf

it seems the Ferraris did use a new ICE.
Another reason for Mercedes vetoing the 5 engines then?
Yup, I can't remember but was this 5th engine proposed before Bahrain? If so, and if it was a contributing factor to Ferrari taking a new engine there, it could be quite a clever move by Mercedes to veto it now. That could be the inner conspiracy theorist within me talking though :-P
Last edited by Black_Flag_11 on Wed May 06, 2015 2:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: No 5th Engine After All?

Post by mds »

pokerman wrote:
imbrugliaboy wrote:
Zoue wrote:I can't find a breakdown, but according to this report neither Ferrari nor Mercedes had changed any engine up to and including the Bahrain Grand Prix, so they would both appear to be in the same boat
At the start of the season Renault had available 12 of the maximum 32 development tokens to use, Ferrari 10, Honda 9 and Mercedes 7. It is not known how many tokens Renault and Honda have used so far in the various new power units they have brought for their drivers in the first four races, but it is known that Ferrari and Sauber its customer were still on their first engine as of Bahrain Grand Prix as were the four Mercedes-powered teams. So one would expect a development step soon on Power Unit two for them, for Spain or Monaco.
http://www.fia.com/sites/default/files/ ... engine.pdf

it seems the Ferraris did use a new ICE.
Another reason for Mercedes vetoing the 5 engines then?
If I were them I'd veto it too, honestly. Although it could bite them later in the season should they hit a patch where they encounter a few problems.

Now, a thought about the situation at Ferrari: Kimi and Vettel used a new ICE, but is that really detrimental?
I mean, what if they don't spend tokens on the ICE? The PU usage is split up into six parts (ICE, TC, MGU-H, MGU-K, CE, ES) and is counted per part.

Both Vettel and Raikkonen, as per the above report, are on their second ICE but still on the first of everything else. Supposed that the batch of tokens they will implement for next race don't touch the ICE, couldn't they then reuse the current ICE?
Last edited by mds on Wed May 06, 2015 2:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: No 5th Engine After All?

Post by F1Tyrant »

imbrugliaboy wrote:http://www.fia.com/sites/default/files/ ... engine.pdf

it seems the Ferraris did use a new ICE.
I knew I hadn't gone mad. Without the 5 engines they will only have two post-Canada upgraded engines, which ties their hands in the development race. Mercedes has pulled a brilliant veto there. If they can save their new powerplant for Canada then they'll be one upgraded engine up on Ferrari.

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Re: No 5th Engine After All?

Post by mds »

Black_Flag_11 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
imbrugliaboy wrote:
Zoue wrote:I can't find a breakdown, but according to this report neither Ferrari nor Mercedes had changed any engine up to and including the Bahrain Grand Prix, so they would both appear to be in the same boat
At the start of the season Renault had available 12 of the maximum 32 development tokens to use, Ferrari 10, Honda 9 and Mercedes 7. It is not known how many tokens Renault and Honda have used so far in the various new power units they have brought for their drivers in the first four races, but it is known that Ferrari and Sauber its customer were still on their first engine as of Bahrain Grand Prix as were the four Mercedes-powered teams. So one would expect a development step soon on Power Unit two for them, for Spain or Monaco.
http://www.fia.com/sites/default/files/ ... engine.pdf

it seems the Ferraris did use a new ICE.
Another reason for Mercedes vetoing the 5 engines then?
Yup, I can't remember but was this 5th engine proposed before Bahrain? If so, and it was a contributing factor to Ferrari taking a new engine there, it could be quite a clever move by Mercedes to veto it now. That could be the inner conspiracy theorist within me talking though :-P
I don't think Ferrari would be so gullible as to just trust the words of others and base their strategy on those words.

At least, I hope they wouldn't be so gullible :)
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Re: No 5th Engine After All?

Post by mds »

F1Tyrant wrote:
imbrugliaboy wrote:http://www.fia.com/sites/default/files/ ... engine.pdf

it seems the Ferraris did use a new ICE.
I knew I hadn't gone mad. Without the 5 engines they will only have two post-Canada upgraded engines, which ties their hands in the development race. Mercedes has pulled a brilliant veto there. If they can save their new powerplant for Canada then they'll be one upgraded engine up on Ferrari.
Well, as per my previous post: PU usage isn't counted in whole PU's but in parts. I'm thinking they can just reuse the ICE and upgrade on or all of the five other parts of the PU, making a total of maximum two used of every type of part.
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Re: No 5th Engine After All?

Post by pokerman »

mds wrote:
F1Tyrant wrote:
imbrugliaboy wrote:http://www.fia.com/sites/default/files/ ... engine.pdf

it seems the Ferraris did use a new ICE.
I knew I hadn't gone mad. Without the 5 engines they will only have two post-Canada upgraded engines, which ties their hands in the development race. Mercedes has pulled a brilliant veto there. If they can save their new powerplant for Canada then they'll be one upgraded engine up on Ferrari.
Well, as per my previous post: PU usage isn't counted in whole PU's but in parts. I'm thinking they can just reuse the ICE and upgrade on or all of the five other parts of the PU, making a total of maximum two used of every type of part.
Yep it just means they won't be upgrading the ICE itself until that bit later in the season
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Re: No 5th Engine After All?

Post by Zoue »

imbrugliaboy wrote:
Zoue wrote:I can't find a breakdown, but according to this report neither Ferrari nor Mercedes had changed any engine up to and including the Bahrain Grand Prix, so they would both appear to be in the same boat
At the start of the season Renault had available 12 of the maximum 32 development tokens to use, Ferrari 10, Honda 9 and Mercedes 7. It is not known how many tokens Renault and Honda have used so far in the various new power units they have brought for their drivers in the first four races, but it is known that Ferrari and Sauber its customer were still on their first engine as of Bahrain Grand Prix as were the four Mercedes-powered teams. So one would expect a development step soon on Power Unit two for them, for Spain or Monaco.
http://www.fia.com/sites/default/files/ ... engine.pdf

it seems the Ferraris did use a new ICE.
Good find, thanks.

It's strange that JA claims that Ferrari didn't use a new engine in Bahrain. Is it possible that things could have changed since the memo was released (it was dated the 7th, while the GP took place on the 19th)? It just seems such a glaring error to make. Other sites, e.g. this one, also talk about new upgrades for Barcelona, which would be odd if they'd just gone ahead and done it the previous race.

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Re: No 5th Engine After All?

Post by imbrugliaboy »

Zoue wrote:
imbrugliaboy wrote:
Zoue wrote:I can't find a breakdown, but according to this report neither Ferrari nor Mercedes had changed any engine up to and including the Bahrain Grand Prix, so they would both appear to be in the same boat
At the start of the season Renault had available 12 of the maximum 32 development tokens to use, Ferrari 10, Honda 9 and Mercedes 7. It is not known how many tokens Renault and Honda have used so far in the various new power units they have brought for their drivers in the first four races, but it is known that Ferrari and Sauber its customer were still on their first engine as of Bahrain Grand Prix as were the four Mercedes-powered teams. So one would expect a development step soon on Power Unit two for them, for Spain or Monaco.
http://www.fia.com/sites/default/files/ ... engine.pdf

it seems the Ferraris did use a new ICE.
Good find, thanks.

It's strange that JA claims that Ferrari didn't use a new engine in Bahrain. Is it possible that things could have changed since the memo was released (it was dated the 7th, while the GP took place on the 19th)? It just seems such a glaring error to make. Other sites, e.g. this one, also talk about new upgrades for Barcelona, which would be odd if they'd just gone ahead and done it the previous race.
It's dated the 17th?
I can only assume that the info is correct as it's an official FIA document.
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Re: No 5th Engine After All?

Post by Zoue »

imbrugliaboy wrote:
Zoue wrote:
imbrugliaboy wrote:
Zoue wrote:I can't find a breakdown, but according to this report neither Ferrari nor Mercedes had changed any engine up to and including the Bahrain Grand Prix, so they would both appear to be in the same boat
At the start of the season Renault had available 12 of the maximum 32 development tokens to use, Ferrari 10, Honda 9 and Mercedes 7. It is not known how many tokens Renault and Honda have used so far in the various new power units they have brought for their drivers in the first four races, but it is known that Ferrari and Sauber its customer were still on their first engine as of Bahrain Grand Prix as were the four Mercedes-powered teams. So one would expect a development step soon on Power Unit two for them, for Spain or Monaco.
http://www.fia.com/sites/default/files/ ... engine.pdf

it seems the Ferraris did use a new ICE.
Good find, thanks.

It's strange that JA claims that Ferrari didn't use a new engine in Bahrain. Is it possible that things could have changed since the memo was released (it was dated the 7th, while the GP took place on the 19th)? It just seems such a glaring error to make. Other sites, e.g. this one, also talk about new upgrades for Barcelona, which would be odd if they'd just gone ahead and done it the previous race.
It's dated the 17th?
I can only assume that the info is correct as it's an official FIA document.
a trip to Specsavers is in order. Just above it says Document 7 :blush:

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Re: No 5th Engine After All?

Post by RunningMan »

mds wrote:
pokerman wrote:
imbrugliaboy wrote:
Zoue wrote:I can't find a breakdown, but according to this report neither Ferrari nor Mercedes had changed any engine up to and including the Bahrain Grand Prix, so they would both appear to be in the same boat
At the start of the season Renault had available 12 of the maximum 32 development tokens to use, Ferrari 10, Honda 9 and Mercedes 7. It is not known how many tokens Renault and Honda have used so far in the various new power units they have brought for their drivers in the first four races, but it is known that Ferrari and Sauber its customer were still on their first engine as of Bahrain Grand Prix as were the four Mercedes-powered teams. So one would expect a development step soon on Power Unit two for them, for Spain or Monaco.
http://www.fia.com/sites/default/files/ ... engine.pdf

it seems the Ferraris did use a new ICE.
Another reason for Mercedes vetoing the 5 engines then?
If I were them I'd veto it too, honestly. Although it could bite them later in the season should they hit a patch where they encounter a few problems.

Now, a thought about the situation at Ferrari: Kimi and Vettel used a new ICE, but is that really detrimental?
I mean, what if they don't spend tokens on the ICE? The PU usage is split up into six parts (ICE, TC, MGU-H, MGU-K, CE, ES) and is counted per part.

Both Vettel and Raikkonen, as per the above report, are on their second ICE but still on the first of everything else. Supposed that the batch of tokens they will implement for next race don't touch the ICE, couldn't they then reuse the current ICE?
Yup. Once they use something once, it counts in their allocation, as far as I'm aware, theire is nothing stopping them mix and matching which components they use. For example, they can have a first spec ICE with a third spec CE and a 2nd spec ES etc
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Re: No 5th Engine After All?

Post by egnat69 »

mds wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
imbrugliaboy wrote:http://www.fia.com/sites/default/files/ ... engine.pdf

it seems the Ferraris did use a new ICE.
Another reason for Mercedes vetoing the 5 engines then?
Yup, I can't remember but was this 5th engine proposed before Bahrain? If so, and it was a contributing factor to Ferrari taking a new engine there, it could be quite a clever move by Mercedes to veto it now. That could be the inner conspiracy theorist within me talking though :-P
I don't think Ferrari would be so gullible as to just trust the words of others and base their strategy on those words.

At least, I hope they wouldn't be so gullible :)
on austrian TV they reported that the engineers found micro-cracks in both engines, hence the swap... engine upgrades with used tokens are due in canada (for ferrari that is) .. that would be 13 races on two engines... or they postpone the upgrades ... they could still run the older spec engines at races like hungary, singapore and japan, i guess, using the new spec for high speed circuits... it remains also to be seen, if the first engine, that only had been used for 3 races, can be resurrected...
How to fix F1:
1. Stop seeking consensuses on rules - it will always turn out to be the least favourible option for everyone involved...
2. Listen to the fans - there are plenty of them and they have good ideas...

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mds
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Re: No 5th Engine After All?

Post by mds »

egnat69 wrote:
mds wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
imbrugliaboy wrote:http://www.fia.com/sites/default/files/ ... engine.pdf

it seems the Ferraris did use a new ICE.
Another reason for Mercedes vetoing the 5 engines then?
Yup, I can't remember but was this 5th engine proposed before Bahrain? If so, and it was a contributing factor to Ferrari taking a new engine there, it could be quite a clever move by Mercedes to veto it now. That could be the inner conspiracy theorist within me talking though :-P
I don't think Ferrari would be so gullible as to just trust the words of others and base their strategy on those words.

At least, I hope they wouldn't be so gullible :)
on austrian TV they reported that the engineers found micro-cracks in both engines, hence the swap... engine upgrades with used tokens are due in canada (for ferrari that is) .. that would be 13 races on two engines... or they postpone the upgrades ... they could still run the older spec engines at races like hungary, singapore and japan, i guess, using the new spec for high speed circuits... it remains also to be seen, if the first engine, that only had been used for 3 races, can be resurrected...
There is no "the" engine. There are only parts. If this round of upgrades does not affect the ICE then there is no problem in planning and there would not be question of 13 races on two engines (or better: on two ICE's).

-- edit --
Or do you mean ICE with "the engine"? In that case - how do you know the upgrades also affect the ICE?
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Re: No 5th Engine After All?

Post by egnat69 »

mds wrote:There is no "the" engine. There are only parts. If this round of upgrades does not affect the ICE then there is no problem in planning and there would not be question of 13 races on two engines (or better: on two ICE's).

-- edit --
Or do you mean ICE with "the engine"? In that case - how do you know the upgrades also affect the ICE?
you're right... lazy thinking on my side... i assumed it would have an impact on the ICE part as those are typically running quite on the edge, so a bigger turbo would probably need to be complimented by some changes to the ICE ... well, that was what i assumed anyway... we'll know by canada i guess..
How to fix F1:
1. Stop seeking consensuses on rules - it will always turn out to be the least favourible option for everyone involved...
2. Listen to the fans - there are plenty of them and they have good ideas...

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moby
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Re: No 5th Engine After All?

Post by moby »

So how do we mortals know which engine is being used? I know the (individual) units are sealed, but I assume some sort of repair allowance is in place or it would be really stupid.

For instance, race after 1, a fault is found in engine block A, say a casting crack. Engine block B is used for race 2, and we are told.

After some welding and machining, A is now in good condition and shelved. To us watchers, it is a used engine. In fact it is not as it is as if it was still in the car with one race on it.

Same with turbo units. Some vibration causes it to be removed, but with a new bearing set it is fine again. In fact, probably better than it would have been had it not been replaced.

This is a real can of worms. Race 12, when they replace the turbo removed and repaired, they are not using a new unit, but they are?

I have picked these components as they are what was in the memo above, but it applies to all things.
So at race 17 when the last "new engine" goes in, they still may have an "engine set", that is everything, which has only done one or two races still on the shelf to use?



A real headache to follow.

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Re: No 5th Engine After All?

Post by egnat69 »

moby wrote:So how do we mortals know which engine is being used? I know the (individual) units are sealed, but I assume some sort of repair allowance is in place or it would be really stupid.

For instance, race after 1, a fault is found in engine block A, say a casting crack. Engine block B is used for race 2, and we are told.

After some welding and machining, A is now in good condition and shelved. To us watchers, it is a used engine. In fact it is not as it is as if it was still in the car with one race on it.

Same with turbo units. Some vibration causes it to be removed, but with a new bearing set it is fine again. In fact, probably better than it would have been had it not been replaced.

This is a real can of worms. Race 12, when they replace the turbo removed and repaired, they are not using a new unit, but they are?

I have picked these components as they are what was in the memo above, but it applies to all things.
So at race 17 when the last "new engine" goes in, they still may have an "engine set", that is everything, which has only done one or two races still on the shelf to use?



A real headache to follow.
it has been like this for quite a while now, actually... the easiest way to know is when an engine blows up in free practice and the team or driver tell the press afterwards, that it was an old engine with thousands of km on...
How to fix F1:
1. Stop seeking consensuses on rules - it will always turn out to be the least favourible option for everyone involved...
2. Listen to the fans - there are plenty of them and they have good ideas...

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Re: No 5th Engine After All?

Post by Need4Naiim »

Mercedes will not forget this veto if they lose the Championship(s) because of blown engines.

But engine reliability is not a weakness of Mercedes now. Mercedes GP never lost a lead and/or a championship due to blown engines.
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Re: No 5th Engine After All?

Post by pokerman »

Need4Naiim wrote:Mercedes will not forget this veto if they lose the Championship(s) because of blown engines.

But engine reliability is not a weakness of Mercedes now. Mercedes GP never lost a lead and/or a championship due to blown engines.
2005?
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F1Tyrant
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Re: No 5th Engine After All?

Post by F1Tyrant »

pokerman wrote:
Need4Naiim wrote:Mercedes will not forget this veto if they lose the Championship(s) because of blown engines.

But engine reliability is not a weakness of Mercedes now. Mercedes GP never lost a lead and/or a championship due to blown engines.
2005?
I think you're confusing the perennial McLaren problem of their car being bulletproof or made of glass. No compromises.

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Re: No 5th Engine After All?

Post by pokerman »

F1Tyrant wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Need4Naiim wrote:Mercedes will not forget this veto if they lose the Championship(s) because of blown engines.

But engine reliability is not a weakness of Mercedes now. Mercedes GP never lost a lead and/or a championship due to blown engines.
2005?
I think you're confusing the perennial McLaren problem of their car being bulletproof or made of glass. No compromises.
Yeah I didn't read that right, it stipulates just the Mercedes team?
Lewis Hamilton #44

World Drivers Titles: 7 (1st)
Grand Prix Wins: 96 (1st)
Pole Positions: 98 (1st)
Podiums: 166 (1st)


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