Bottas to Ferrari!?

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Blake
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Re: Bottas to Ferrari!?

Post by Blake »

I disagree with those of you bashing Massa, I think you are being very unfair in your assessment. It is easy to sit back and look at nothing but stats and say... oh, a medoicre driver at best. Did some of you ever even watch Massa? Yes, like most drivers he faired better in a top car than a poorer one... and with the exception of Alonso in the current field you can make the claim that most of the drivers need a top car to really shine.

However, Massa's stats would likely be more impressive had he not spent many years with Schumi as a teammate, and with Alonso, and with Kimi. Name a single other driver whose teammates had 10 WDCs between them. Yet, Massa was not only a good teammate, he was also fast enough to win when the legends like Schumi did not. He came within one last turn on the last lap of being a WDC himself, and perhaps raced even better the next year before his accident, which incidently was not of his doing. If he was merely an average (or as some seem be saying less than that), what does it say about Lewis who could only beat him on that last lap of the last race? A one point difference and one driver was being hailed as the next Senna, and Massa is being put down by so many in here.

In my opinion, both Massa and Rubens were better drivers than is Rosberg at this point... especially the Rosberg we are seeing this year. I remember watching Massa before he went to Ferrari and thinking the kid had talent, and when Ferrari signed him to partner with Schumi, I was one of the few in here who thought it was a good move by Ferrari... in my mind he did not disappoint. I think many fall into a trap of putting down both Massa & Rubens because they could not beat Schumi or Alonso............ seemingly forgetting that few drivers ever did. Neither of them are in the Schumi/Nando class, but then neither is any other F1 driver this century as I see it.

As for the topic... Bottas to Ferrari if Kimi is gone, is not the worst idea that I have seen put forth. Fortunately, that decision does not have to be made right now, so they both have some time to see if that is in their best interest in the future. Ricciardo to Ferrari is probably a bit of a reach unless Red Bull bails out of F1 making Dan available to be signed, and if that were the case, and if Ferrari thinks he is the answer they will sign him and Vettel would have to help to make it work.
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Re: Bottas to Ferrari!?

Post by F1Tyrant »

Blake wrote:Name a single other driver whose teammates had 10 WDCs between them.
Felipe has had the strongest group of teammates in history: Heidfeld, Fisichella, Villeneuve, Schumacher, Raikkonen, Alonso, Bottas. Unfortunately, he lost to all of them except Villeneuve and was closely matched to Raikkonen and Bottas.
Blake wrote:Yet, Massa was not only a good teammate, he was also fast enough to win when the legends like Schumi did not.
Massa's victories in Turkey and Brazil were enormous slices of luck. The SC destroyed Schumacher's strategy when he had to stack behind Massa and Alonso got in between. In Brazil, Schumacher could have lapped the field without his early puncture.
Blake wrote:If he was merely an average (or as some seem be saying less than that), what does it say about Lewis who could only beat him on that last lap of the last race? A one point difference and one driver was being hailed as the next Senna, and Massa is being put down by so many in here.
Mmm... I wonder... Maybe it was something to do with him driving the F2008 which was the comfortably best car that year. The MP4-23 was equal or a touch better in only two circumstances due to it's shorter wheelbase:
  • On tracks with low speed corners.
  • In wet conditions.
Massa should have won the WDC that season but reliability, the cornerstone of Ferrari competitiveness, let him down in Hungary.
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Re: Bottas to Ferrari!?

Post by Blake »

F1Tyrant wrote:
Blake wrote:Name a single other driver whose teammates had 10 WDCs between them.
Felipe has had the strongest group of teammates in history: Heidfeld, Fisichella, Villeneuve, Schumacher, Raikkonen, Alonso, Bottas. Unfortunately, he lost to all of them except Villeneuve and was closely matched to Raikkonen and Bottas.

That is the point.... a driver does not get paired with the likes of Schumi or Alonso unless he is well above average to begin with. None of those teams are going to get a poor driver when the WCC is at stake as well. BTW, make that 11 WDCs, I had forgotten about Jacques'. I feel that Massa is massively underrated in this forum. No one is claiming that he is the equal of Alonso, nor was he Schumi's equal, but then as I said, neither was anyone else.
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Re: Bottas to Ferrari!?

Post by Need4Naiim »

Blake wrote:I disagree with those of you bashing Massa, I think you are being very unfair in your assessment....

Did some of you ever even watch Massa? Yes, like most drivers he faired better in a top car than a poorer one...

...Name a single other driver whose teammates had 11 WDCs between them...

In my opinion, both Massa and Rubens were better drivers than is Rosberg at this point... especially the Rosberg we are seeing this year....
There won't be many who will agree with those lines, but you convinced me about Massa.

After being teammates with so many strong champions, and suffering a season-ending crash; it is certain that he had the most difficult career of all current drivers on todays grid. He definitely deserves a lot more respect than he gets.

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Re: Bottas to Ferrari!?

Post by F1Tyrant »

Blake wrote:That is the point.... a driver does not get paired with the likes of Schumi or Alonso unless he is well above average to begin with.
Are you kidding? Schumacher's list of teammates reads like a list of the most mediocre F1 drivers: Verstappen, Lehto, Brundle, Herbert, Irvine, Barrichello, Massa and Rosberg. The only exception is Nelson Piquet.

Alonso's is a bit better: Marques, Trulli, Fisichella, Hamilton, Piquet Jr, Massa, Raikkonen and Button.
Blake wrote:None of those teams are going to get a poor driver when the WCC is at stake as well.
You don't need a great driver to back up a top notch driver like Schumacher in a fast car. You need a compliant driver who will keep his fast car on the track and follow team orders.
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Re: Bottas to Ferrari!?

Post by pokerman »

RunningMan wrote:
pokerman wrote:
RunningMan wrote:
pokerman wrote:
RunningMan wrote:He''ll make a good number 2 to Vettel. I think he's a touch over-rated and he's a step down from Kimi IMO. It only makes sense for Ferrari to sign him if Kimi decides to retire and they don't want to get another top driver to pair with Vettel
Why is that, Kimi = Massa, Bottas at the least = Massa, it even seems Vettel = Kimi, what you get with Bottas I guess is potential?
I'd rate Bottas as at best equal to Massa. Massa appears to have the upper hand in 2015 IMO. I wouldn't call Massa a top driver anymore, and whilst Bottas is young/inexperienced, I'd expect him to put away Massa alot more convincingly. For that, I think that replacing Kimi with Bottas would be a slight step backwards for Ferrari.
The logic being that Massa was only a top driver during the time he was paired with Kimi?

Also I myself am not seeing this apparent upper hand that Massa has on Bottas.
Well, because of the results he got, he appeared to be a top driver. He was very nearly world champion after all. However, as time passed, people started to realise that without a car that could qualify near the front, he struggled. I don't think that he was only a top driver when paired with Kimi, I think it was more of a case that when paired with Kimi, he had a top car.
I think it's the same old story of being able to distinguish between the car and the driver
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Re: Bottas to Ferrari!?

Post by pokerman »

F1Tyrant wrote:
Blake wrote:That is the point.... a driver does not get paired with the likes of Schumi or Alonso unless he is well above average to begin with.
Are you kidding? Schumacher's list of teammates reads like a list of the most mediocre F1 drivers: Verstappen, Lehto, Brundle, Herbert, Irvine, Barrichello, Massa and Rosberg. The only exception is Nelson Piquet.

Alonso's is a bit better: Marques, Trulli, Fisichella, Hamilton, Piquet Jr, Massa, Raikkonen and Button.
Blake wrote:None of those teams are going to get a poor driver when the WCC is at stake as well.
You don't need a great driver to back up a top notch driver like Schumacher in a fast car. You need a compliant driver who will keep his fast car on the track and follow team orders.
Yes just to put the record straight Massa was signed on a one year deal as a stop gap driver after Ruben's decision to quit Ferrari caught them on the back foot somewhat, Kimi then was lined up to drive for Ferrari over fears that Schumacher might retire, if Schumacher had re-signed for 2007 then there was no Ferrari driver for Massa.
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Re: Bottas to Ferrari!?

Post by Blake »

F1Tyrant wrote:
Blake wrote:
Blake wrote:None of those teams are going to get a poor driver when the WCC is at stake as well.
You don't need a great driver to back up a top notch driver like Schumacher in a fast car. You need a compliant driver who will keep his fast car on the track and follow team orders.
No, you need a do very competent driver and while you may not want a driver who is going to rival a Schumi directly you certainly want one who will give you a chance for the win if your top driver cannot. You also need a very competent driver who will gain you maximum points along with the top driver. For Ferrari more than most, the WCC is a treasured championship, moreso than the WDC, so of course they are going to want a top driver to partner with their ace.

You can bash Schumi's teammates all you want, however, Rubens when hired by Ferrari was thought to be one of the most talented drivers available, and Massa was certainly performed quite well. One also needs to keep in mind that Schumi's teammates had the disadvantage of competing with Schumi for wins... that tends to hurt stats.

It may come down to a definition of "great", as you seem to think that there is great, and then there is "top notch". As I see it, there are very, very few "great" drivers, very few, what you might be calling top notch, but several exceptional drivers... and certainly I put Massa & Rubens in that category though not necessarily at the top of the "exceptionals". Trust me, I am not saying that either Massa or Rubens are the equal of Seb or Lewis, but the were certainly very capable drivers and deserve better than they usually get in the forum.
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Re: Bottas to Ferrari!?

Post by kleefton »

Blake wrote:I disagree with those of you bashing Massa, I think you are being very unfair in your assessment. It is easy to sit back and look at nothing but stats and say... oh, a medoicre driver at best. Did some of you ever even watch Massa? Yes, like most drivers he faired better in a top car than a poorer one... and with the exception of Alonso in the current field you can make the claim that most of the drivers need a top car to really shine.

However, Massa's stats would likely be more impressive had he not spent many years with Schumi as a teammate, and with Alonso, and with Kimi. Name a single other driver whose teammates had 10 WDCs between them. Yet, Massa was not only a good teammate, he was also fast enough to win when the legends like Schumi did not. He came within one last turn on the last lap of being a WDC himself, and perhaps raced even better the next year before his accident, which incidently was not of his doing. If he was merely an average (or as some seem be saying less than that), what does it say about Lewis who could only beat him on that last lap of the last race? A one point difference and one driver was being hailed as the next Senna, and Massa is being put down by so many in here.

In my opinion, both Massa and Rubens were better drivers than is Rosberg at this point... especially the Rosberg we are seeing this year. I remember watching Massa before he went to Ferrari and thinking the kid had talent, and when Ferrari signed him to partner with Schumi, I was one of the few in here who thought it was a good move by Ferrari... in my mind he did not disappoint. I think many fall into a trap of putting down both Massa & Rubens because they could not beat Schumi or Alonso............ seemingly forgetting that few drivers ever did. Neither of them are in the Schumi/Nando class, but then neither is any other F1 driver this century as I see it.

As for the topic... Bottas to Ferrari if Kimi is gone, is not the worst idea that I have seen put forth. Fortunately, that decision does not have to be made right now, so they both have some time to see if that is in their best interest in the future. Ricciardo to Ferrari is probably a bit of a reach unless Red Bull bails out of F1 making Dan available to be signed, and if that were the case, and if Ferrari thinks he is the answer they will sign him and Vettel would have to help to make it work.
I agree with this.

There is nothing that proves that Massa is not very fast or not very good. He could have been a world champion, he has won multiple races in F1.
Who knows what happened at Ferrari while Alonso and Felipe were teammates. Massa recently said that he knows why he underperformed at Ferrari but he will not reveal it because he can't. What does that sound like to you?
And Bottas is definitely an impressive young driver. He has had quite a few drives already in his career to prove that. Anyone that doesn't see that he is special is just blind or in denial. But yet he still finds it difficult to beat Massa consistently. That is not to discredit him, but it proves that Massa is pretty damn good as well. Even Alonso could not outqualify Massa all the time. Come on people, give credit where credit is due.

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Re: Bottas to Ferrari!?

Post by mikeyg123 »

Blake wrote:I disagree with those of you bashing Massa, I think you are being very unfair in your assessment. It is easy to sit back and look at nothing but stats and say... oh, a medoicre driver at best. Did some of you ever even watch Massa? Yes, like most drivers he faired better in a top car than a poorer one... and with the exception of Alonso in the current field you can make the claim that most of the drivers need a top car to really shine.

However, Massa's stats would likely be more impressive had he not spent many years with Schumi as a teammate, and with Alonso, and with Kimi. Name a single other driver whose teammates had 10 WDCs between them. Yet, Massa was not only a good teammate, he was also fast enough to win when the legends like Schumi did not. He came within one last turn on the last lap of being a WDC himself, and perhaps raced even better the next year before his accident, which incidently was not of his doing. If he was merely an average (or as some seem be saying less than that), what does it say about Lewis who could only beat him on that last lap of the last race? A one point difference and one driver was being hailed as the next Senna, and Massa is being put down by so many in here.

In my opinion, both Massa and Rubens were better drivers than is Rosberg at this point... especially the Rosberg we are seeing this year. I remember watching Massa before he went to Ferrari and thinking the kid had talent, and when Ferrari signed him to partner with Schumi, I was one of the few in here who thought it was a good move by Ferrari... in my mind he did not disappoint. I think many fall into a trap of putting down both Massa & Rubens because they could not beat Schumi or Alonso............ seemingly forgetting that few drivers ever did. Neither of them are in the Schumi/Nando class, but then neither is any other F1 driver this century as I see it.

As for the topic... Bottas to Ferrari if Kimi is gone, is not the worst idea that I have seen put forth. Fortunately, that decision does not have to be made right now, so they both have some time to see if that is in their best interest in the future. Ricciardo to Ferrari is probably a bit of a reach unless Red Bull bails out of F1 making Dan available to be signed, and if that were the case, and if Ferrari thinks he is the answer they will sign him and Vettel would have to help to make it work.
I don't "bash" Massa for not being able to beat Schumacher or Alonso, I "bash" him for hardly being able to beat anyone else. He looked quick in 07 and 08 but for the other 10 years of his career has he done anything that would suggest he should be placed anywhere other than in the middle third? Not in my opinion.

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Re: Bottas to Ferrari!?

Post by pokerman »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Blake wrote:I disagree with those of you bashing Massa, I think you are being very unfair in your assessment. It is easy to sit back and look at nothing but stats and say... oh, a medoicre driver at best. Did some of you ever even watch Massa? Yes, like most drivers he faired better in a top car than a poorer one... and with the exception of Alonso in the current field you can make the claim that most of the drivers need a top car to really shine.

However, Massa's stats would likely be more impressive had he not spent many years with Schumi as a teammate, and with Alonso, and with Kimi. Name a single other driver whose teammates had 10 WDCs between them. Yet, Massa was not only a good teammate, he was also fast enough to win when the legends like Schumi did not. He came within one last turn on the last lap of being a WDC himself, and perhaps raced even better the next year before his accident, which incidently was not of his doing. If he was merely an average (or as some seem be saying less than that), what does it say about Lewis who could only beat him on that last lap of the last race? A one point difference and one driver was being hailed as the next Senna, and Massa is being put down by so many in here.

In my opinion, both Massa and Rubens were better drivers than is Rosberg at this point... especially the Rosberg we are seeing this year. I remember watching Massa before he went to Ferrari and thinking the kid had talent, and when Ferrari signed him to partner with Schumi, I was one of the few in here who thought it was a good move by Ferrari... in my mind he did not disappoint. I think many fall into a trap of putting down both Massa & Rubens because they could not beat Schumi or Alonso............ seemingly forgetting that few drivers ever did. Neither of them are in the Schumi/Nando class, but then neither is any other F1 driver this century as I see it.

As for the topic... Bottas to Ferrari if Kimi is gone, is not the worst idea that I have seen put forth. Fortunately, that decision does not have to be made right now, so they both have some time to see if that is in their best interest in the future. Ricciardo to Ferrari is probably a bit of a reach unless Red Bull bails out of F1 making Dan available to be signed, and if that were the case, and if Ferrari thinks he is the answer they will sign him and Vettel would have to help to make it work.
I don't "bash" Massa for not being able to beat Schumacher or Alonso, I "bash" him for hardly being able to beat anyone else. He looked quick in 07 and 08 but for the other 10 years of his career has he done anything that would suggest he should be placed anywhere other than in the middle third? Not in my opinion.
Yes indeed Massa has only had 2 winning seasons against teammates
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Re: Bottas to Ferrari!?

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Blake wrote:I disagree with those of you bashing Massa, I think you are being very unfair in your assessment. It is easy to sit back and look at nothing but stats and say...
...
...
...
A one point difference and one driver was being hailed as the next Senna
So you want people to look beyond stats and are using a single statistic outside the context to prove your point?

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Re: Bottas to Ferrari!?

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never mind
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Re: Bottas to Ferrari!?

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I somehow think Vettel would veto Ricciardo coming to Ferrari

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Re: Bottas to Ferrari!?

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F1Oz wrote:I somehow think Vettel would veto Ricciardo coming to Ferrari
I don't think he would. He knew exactly what he was doing last year, and I doubt Ferrari would give him the option either.

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Re: Bottas to Ferrari!?

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Bottas didn't actually beat Maldonado over a whole season, he outscored him yeah with 1 better points finish I would hardly call it a hard beating in a car that finished outside top 10 9 times out of 10.
So far he is equal to Massa. Good but there are defintely better options out there for Ferrari, someone who can push Vettel like Ricciardo did.
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Re: Bottas to Ferrari!?

Post by Need4Naiim »

Amon wrote:Bottas didn't actually beat Maldonado over a whole season, he outscored him yeah with 1 better points finish I would hardly call it a hard beating in a car that finished outside top 10 9 times out of 10.
So far he is equal to Massa. Good but there are defintely better options out there for Ferrari, someone who can push Vettel like Ricciardo did.
So who is he? Grosjean? Perez? Maldonado? Rosberg? Verstappen? Sainz jr.?






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Re: Bottas to Ferrari!?

Post by Blake »

moby wrote:
F1Oz wrote:I somehow think Vettel would veto Ricciardo coming to Ferrari
I don't think he would. He knew exactly what he was doing last year, and I doubt Ferrari would give him the option either.
I tend to agree with moby on this one. For all we really know, Vettel might even want to have Ricciardo as a teammate again... a chance to let the "world" know 2014 was but a "bliP" on over-all image.

I would also doubt that Seb would have that much clout within the team yet to dictate terms when it comes to choice of teammates, as was said with Alonso, they might well let ask his opinion, but in the end, they will hire who they wish.
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Re: Bottas to Ferrari!?

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I don't see this as particularly putting a #2 in there. Ferrari have been chasing Hamilton with no luck so after that, who could they put in there who is better? Ricciardio maybe but is he free to leave? Maybe Ferrari see something more in Bottas. Raikkonen is doing a good job so far this year but has been inconsistent in his career and he won't be around forever. I can understand why Ferrari are looking at replacing him. Raikkonen might shade Bottas at this stage, but Bottas is still very early in his career and I think he still has room to improve.
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Re: Bottas to Ferrari!?

Post by Need4Naiim »

hittheapex wrote:I don't see this as particularly putting a #2 in there. Ferrari have been chasing Hamilton with no luck so after that, who could they put in there who is better? Ricciardio maybe but is he free to leave? Maybe Ferrari see something more in Bottas. Raikkonen is doing a good job so far this year but has been inconsistent in his career and he won't be around forever. I can understand why Ferrari are looking at replacing him. Raikkonen might shade Bottas at this stage, but Bottas is still very early in his career and I think he still has room to improve.
AND, if they choose Bottas, Ferrari can have a very long partnership with Vettel-Bottas duo. Mr. Arrivabene possibly thinks about long run; away from silly-season talks, X to Ferrari gossips.... and so on.
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Re: Bottas to Ferrari!?

Post by bourbon19 »

Blake wrote:
moby wrote:
F1Oz wrote:I somehow think Vettel would veto Ricciardo coming to Ferrari
I don't think he would. He knew exactly what he was doing last year, and I doubt Ferrari would give him the option either.
I tend to agree with moby on this one. For all we really know, Vettel might even want to have Ricciardo as a teammate again... a chance to let the "world" know 2014 was but a "bliP" on over-all image.

I would also doubt that Seb would have that much clout within the team yet to dictate terms when it comes to choice of teammates, as was said with Alonso, they might well let ask his opinion, but in the end, they will hire who they wish.
I agree that teams consult the drivers, but ultimately make their own decisions. Bottas is fast and talented so from Ferrari's perspective, he would be a good prospect. In addition, he does not come with a lot of baggage, which means continued harmony in the team. More importantly, Bottas is free in 2016 and 2017 at the moment, so that is another thing in his favor.

According to Seb, he does not see his image as having a 'blip'. He maturely recognizes that it is a race and you are going to win in some years and lose in others - including to your teammate. I personally don't think rematches are a primary concern. I think his priority is having a teammate he can work with to get the best out of the car, without a 'Macca 2007' like circus atmosphere going on.
Need4Naiim wrote:
hittheapex wrote:I don't see this as particularly putting a #2 in there. Ferrari have been chasing Hamilton with no luck so after that, who could they put in there who is better? Ricciardio maybe but is he free to leave? Maybe Ferrari see something more in Bottas. Raikkonen is doing a good job so far this year but has been inconsistent in his career and he won't be around forever. I can understand why Ferrari are looking at replacing him. Raikkonen might shade Bottas at this stage, but Bottas is still very early in his career and I think he still has room to improve.
AND, if they choose Bottas, Ferrari can have a very long partnership with Vettel-Bottas duo. Mr. Arrivabene possibly thinks about long run; away from silly-season talks, X to Ferrari gossips.... and so on.
There is no evidence that Ferrari was chasing Hamilton. Ferrari spoke to many drivers (likely including Hamilton) when Alonso made it clear he wanted out, but the recent chatter is just contractual noise and Bernie's hope to spice up the show, imo. As I see it, neither the teams nor the drivers are truly interested in that. Ferrari's idea has always been to bring in a young driver (Jules was pinpointed, according to Luca) and from the sounds of things, that is still their intent. I'm pretty sure RBR has its drivers tied up, whereas Bottas and Hulkenberg's contracts are ending.

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Re: Bottas to Ferrari!?

Post by mas »

http://www1.skysports.com/f1/news/12040 ... s-for-2016

“Bottas is in (the) future and by future I mean Bottas is interesting – like many other young drivers, he is performing very well,” he added. Arrivabene admits he is wary of upsetting the atmosphere at the team by changing the line-up, but underlined the importance of having two drivers competing at the front. “It depends on the performance with Kimi,” Arrivabene said when asked if the ideal situation would be keeping both Raikkonen and Sebastian Vettel in 2016. “Of course our goal is to keep the atmosphere we have without creating any unbalanced situation. But also we need the performance for the constructors’ championship, because for the points you need two drivers.”

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Re: Bottas to Ferrari!?

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mas wrote:http://www1.skysports.com/f1/news/12040 ... s-for-2016

“Bottas is in (the) future and by future I mean Bottas is interesting – like many other young drivers, he is performing very well,” he added. Arrivabene admits he is wary of upsetting the atmosphere at the team by changing the line-up, but underlined the importance of having two drivers competing at the front. “It depends on the performance with Kimi,” Arrivabene said when asked if the ideal situation would be keeping both Raikkonen and Sebastian Vettel in 2016. “Of course our goal is to keep the atmosphere we have without creating any unbalanced situation. But also we need the performance for the constructors’ championship, because for the points you need two drivers.”
I still don't quite get the love for Bottas. I think he's good, but I don't think he's special. He can defend OK but otherwise I find him vaguely reminiscent of Rosberg: solid but unspectacular. If Ferrari are looking for a Number 2, then maybe he will be worth a look, but I'd be disappointed in their ambitions if that were true. On balance I'd say Seb hasn't looked superior to Kimi on Sundays, although he's been undeniably superior in qualifying. But if I were Ferrari I'd be looking for someone with the potential to be better in both qualifying and the race. And I don't think that's Bottas

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Re: Bottas to Ferrari!?

Post by pokerman »

Zoue wrote:
mas wrote:http://www1.skysports.com/f1/news/12040 ... s-for-2016

“Bottas is in (the) future and by future I mean Bottas is interesting – like many other young drivers, he is performing very well,” he added. Arrivabene admits he is wary of upsetting the atmosphere at the team by changing the line-up, but underlined the importance of having two drivers competing at the front. “It depends on the performance with Kimi,” Arrivabene said when asked if the ideal situation would be keeping both Raikkonen and Sebastian Vettel in 2016. “Of course our goal is to keep the atmosphere we have without creating any unbalanced situation. But also we need the performance for the constructors’ championship, because for the points you need two drivers.”
I still don't quite get the love for Bottas. I think he's good, but I don't think he's special. He can defend OK but otherwise I find him vaguely reminiscent of Rosberg: solid but unspectacular. If Ferrari are looking for a Number 2, then maybe he will be worth a look, but I'd be disappointed in their ambitions if that were true. On balance I'd say Seb hasn't looked superior to Kimi on Sundays, although he's been undeniably superior in qualifying. But if I were Ferrari I'd be looking for someone with the potential to be better in both qualifying and the race. And I don't think that's Bottas
As it stands now though it's hard to see Bottas not doing better than Kimi in qualifying at least
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Re: Bottas to Ferrari!?

Post by trento »

I think Ferrari should just go for Lewis. I know sometimes team principals believe 2 top drivers can create disharmony. But if you look at Mercedes, it's working well and 2 top drivers will also bring in maximum points.

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Re: Bottas to Ferrari!?

Post by pokerman »

trento wrote:I think Ferrari should just go for Lewis. I know sometimes team principals believe 2 top drivers can create disharmony. But if you look at Mercedes, it's working well and 2 top drivers will also bring in maximum points.
I don't believe that Hamilton is available, rumours are rife that he will be confirmed at Mercedes in Monaco
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Re: Bottas to Ferrari!?

Post by trento »

pokerman wrote:
trento wrote:I think Ferrari should just go for Lewis. I know sometimes team principals believe 2 top drivers can create disharmony. But if you look at Mercedes, it's working well and 2 top drivers will also bring in maximum points.
I don't believe that Hamilton is available, rumours are rife that he will be confirmed at Mercedes in Monaco
I agree. Just feel that Ferrari missed an opportunity to get him. It's probably too late now.

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Re: Bottas to Ferrari!?

Post by Zoue »

pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
mas wrote:http://www1.skysports.com/f1/news/12040 ... s-for-2016

“Bottas is in (the) future and by future I mean Bottas is interesting – like many other young drivers, he is performing very well,” he added. Arrivabene admits he is wary of upsetting the atmosphere at the team by changing the line-up, but underlined the importance of having two drivers competing at the front. “It depends on the performance with Kimi,” Arrivabene said when asked if the ideal situation would be keeping both Raikkonen and Sebastian Vettel in 2016. “Of course our goal is to keep the atmosphere we have without creating any unbalanced situation. But also we need the performance for the constructors’ championship, because for the points you need two drivers.”
I still don't quite get the love for Bottas. I think he's good, but I don't think he's special. He can defend OK but otherwise I find him vaguely reminiscent of Rosberg: solid but unspectacular. If Ferrari are looking for a Number 2, then maybe he will be worth a look, but I'd be disappointed in their ambitions if that were true. On balance I'd say Seb hasn't looked superior to Kimi on Sundays, although he's been undeniably superior in qualifying. But if I were Ferrari I'd be looking for someone with the potential to be better in both qualifying and the race. And I don't think that's Bottas
As it stands now though it's hard to see Bottas not doing better than Kimi in qualifying at least
Yes, I agree. But Bottas hasn't shown the racing prowess that Kimi has IMO. Would he have finished higher than Kimi at any race this year? Possibly Spain, but only by one place and that purely as a result of qualifying higher, not better race performance. I just don't see that he would offer a definite improvement.
Last edited by Zoue on Mon May 11, 2015 7:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Bottas to Ferrari!?

Post by pokerman »

trento wrote:
pokerman wrote:
trento wrote:I think Ferrari should just go for Lewis. I know sometimes team principals believe 2 top drivers can create disharmony. But if you look at Mercedes, it's working well and 2 top drivers will also bring in maximum points.
I don't believe that Hamilton is available, rumours are rife that he will be confirmed at Mercedes in Monaco
I agree. Just feel that Ferrari missed an opportunity to get him. It's probably too late now.
I honestly don't think he was ever available
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Re: Bottas to Ferrari!?

Post by pokerman »

Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
mas wrote:http://www1.skysports.com/f1/news/12040 ... s-for-2016

“Bottas is in (the) future and by future I mean Bottas is interesting – like many other young drivers, he is performing very well,” he added. Arrivabene admits he is wary of upsetting the atmosphere at the team by changing the line-up, but underlined the importance of having two drivers competing at the front. “It depends on the performance with Kimi,” Arrivabene said when asked if the ideal situation would be keeping both Raikkonen and Sebastian Vettel in 2016. “Of course our goal is to keep the atmosphere we have without creating any unbalanced situation. But also we need the performance for the constructors’ championship, because for the points you need two drivers.”
I still don't quite get the love for Bottas. I think he's good, but I don't think he's special. He can defend OK but otherwise I find him vaguely reminiscent of Rosberg: solid but unspectacular. If Ferrari are looking for a Number 2, then maybe he will be worth a look, but I'd be disappointed in their ambitions if that were true. On balance I'd say Seb hasn't looked superior to Kimi on Sundays, although he's been undeniably superior in qualifying. But if I were Ferrari I'd be looking for someone with the potential to be better in both qualifying and the race. And I don't think that's Bottas
As it stands now though it's hard to see Bottas not doing better than Kimi in qualifying at least
Yes, I agree. But Bottas hasn't shown the racing prowess that Kimi has IMO. Would he have finished higher than Kimi at any race this year? Possibly Spain, but only by one place and that purely as a result of qualifying higher, not better race performance. I just don't see that he would offer a definite improvement.
That's hard to know, you are judging that Bottas would be unable to outqualify Vettel and have a better chance of beating him than Kimi
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Re: Bottas to Ferrari!?

Post by Zoue »

pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
mas wrote:http://www1.skysports.com/f1/news/12040 ... s-for-2016

“Bottas is in (the) future and by future I mean Bottas is interesting – like many other young drivers, he is performing very well,” he added. Arrivabene admits he is wary of upsetting the atmosphere at the team by changing the line-up, but underlined the importance of having two drivers competing at the front. “It depends on the performance with Kimi,” Arrivabene said when asked if the ideal situation would be keeping both Raikkonen and Sebastian Vettel in 2016. “Of course our goal is to keep the atmosphere we have without creating any unbalanced situation. But also we need the performance for the constructors’ championship, because for the points you need two drivers.”
I still don't quite get the love for Bottas. I think he's good, but I don't think he's special. He can defend OK but otherwise I find him vaguely reminiscent of Rosberg: solid but unspectacular. If Ferrari are looking for a Number 2, then maybe he will be worth a look, but I'd be disappointed in their ambitions if that were true. On balance I'd say Seb hasn't looked superior to Kimi on Sundays, although he's been undeniably superior in qualifying. But if I were Ferrari I'd be looking for someone with the potential to be better in both qualifying and the race. And I don't think that's Bottas
As it stands now though it's hard to see Bottas not doing better than Kimi in qualifying at least
Yes, I agree. But Bottas hasn't shown the racing prowess that Kimi has IMO. Would he have finished higher than Kimi at any race this year? Possibly Spain, but only by one place and that purely as a result of qualifying higher, not better race performance. I just don't see that he would offer a definite improvement.
That's hard to know, you are judging that Bottas would be unable to outqualify Vettel and have a better chance of beating him than Kimi
He may well do, of course. But Seb has always been a good qualifier himself so there's no reason to believe Bottas would be better, although I agree it's possible. But as far as Ferrari are concerned, which race do you think they would likely have had a better result for both cars had Bottas been part of the team instead of Kimi? The only one I can think of would be Spain, and then by one position only. I don't see him challenging the Mercs, as I don't remember seeing him being particularly aggressive.

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Re: Bottas to Ferrari!?

Post by shoot999 »

pokerman wrote:
trento wrote:
pokerman wrote:
trento wrote:I think Ferrari should just go for Lewis. I know sometimes team principals believe 2 top drivers can create disharmony. But if you look at Mercedes, it's working well and 2 top drivers will also bring in maximum points.
I don't believe that Hamilton is available, rumours are rife that he will be confirmed at Mercedes in Monaco
I agree. Just feel that Ferrari missed an opportunity to get him. It's probably too late now.
I honestly don't think he was ever available
I always thought this was more a case of Bernie being Bernie. He threw the idea around a few races ago; had a private meeting with Hamilton, and then a very public meeting with Wolff and Hamilton. And I don't even think Hamilton to Ferrari was his end game. Get Alonso out of his contract and put him in the Merc; and then get Vettel and Hamilton to chase him down in the Ferrari. Very attractive from a F1 perspective.

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Re: Bottas to Ferrari!?

Post by hittheapex »

I'd be happy with Bottas leaving if it means Hulkenberg or Grosjean can get in a Williams.
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Re: Bottas to Ferrari!?

Post by F1Tyrant »

hittheapex wrote:I'd be happy with Bottas leaving if it means Hulkenberg or Grosjean can get in a Williams.
Neither have done anything that screams: "I am better than Force India/Lotus". Grosjean has quite a lot of $$$ but I don't see that being enough to get him a race seat ahead of Nasr or Ricciardo (who is a free agent for 2016 as well). Hulk is 70% of the way to being a Porsche LMP1 driver.
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Re: Bottas to Ferrari!?

Post by hittheapex »

F1Tyrant wrote:
hittheapex wrote:I'd be happy with Bottas leaving if it means Hulkenberg or Grosjean can get in a Williams.
Neither have done anything that screams: "I am better than Force India/Lotus". Grosjean has quite a lot of $$$ but I don't see that being enough to get him a race seat ahead of Nasr or Ricciardo (who is a free agent for 2016 as well). Hulk is 70% of the way to being a Porsche LMP1 driver.
I think a Williams drive is the only thing that would keep him in F1. He's had enough of midfield and he's being canny in pursuing his options with Porsche. I didn't know Ricciardo was a free agent in 2016. It would be good to see him back up at the front as well. I considered Nasr given his links to the team, but I also wonder if it would be better to give him a couple more years to let him come back to Williams a much improved driver. Similar to when Williams released Button but retained an option on him for a few years.

I would probably take Grosjean over Nasr at the moment because with the greatest respect to Ericsson who I think is doing OK though not spectacular, I think Grosjean has performed against better team mates in Raikkonen and yes even Maldonado. I'd take Ricciardo over both as a team principal but as a fan, I want to see Grosjean back in a car that can regularly fight for podiums and wins and Hulkenberg just to get that chance to begin with. It's still an open verdict in my opinion on how good these two are.
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Re: Bottas to Ferrari!?

Post by Schumacher forever#1 »

The thing about Bottas is that he looks like a driver who won't develop much more in his career. When he was on the Skypad with Brundle, he showed just how much experience Bottas had at a young age. He was able to consider all wind conditions in turns. It showed it wasn't his raw pace that gave him fourth place, but his knowledge. And knowledge comes with experience rather than raw pace. And the LDMR states that it would be better if it was the other way around.

Furthermore, in the races, he shows his cool when defending against the likes of Hamilton and Vettel. That's something that also comes with experience. We are constantly looking at these attributes that are received over time. What's worrying is that we're not looking at attributes that Grosjean or Perez might have: very good pace, but don't have the experience to deliver it continuously.

As for his move to Ferrari, yes, he would be a good number two driver. But, if there really is a new philosophy at Ferrari that they want two world class drivers, I think they're looking at the wrong driver. I'm sure he'd be disciplined and pick up the constructors points.

I may be biased towards Hulkenberg, but I really think he deserves a top seat. Just for a season, at least. It will always be hard to see how good he really is when he races in mid-pack.
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Re: Bottas to Ferrari!?

Post by pokerman »

shoot999 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
trento wrote:
pokerman wrote:
trento wrote:I think Ferrari should just go for Lewis. I know sometimes team principals believe 2 top drivers can create disharmony. But if you look at Mercedes, it's working well and 2 top drivers will also bring in maximum points.
I don't believe that Hamilton is available, rumours are rife that he will be confirmed at Mercedes in Monaco
I agree. Just feel that Ferrari missed an opportunity to get him. It's probably too late now.
I honestly don't think he was ever available
I always thought this was more a case of Bernie being Bernie. He threw the idea around a few races ago; had a private meeting with Hamilton, and then a very public meeting with Wolff and Hamilton. And I don't even think Hamilton to Ferrari was his end game. Get Alonso out of his contract and put him in the Merc; and then get Vettel and Hamilton to chase him down in the Ferrari. Very attractive from a F1 perspective.
Fair enough but I don't think Hamilton was going to walk away from such a car as the Mercedes
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Re: Bottas to Ferrari!?

Post by pokerman »

hittheapex wrote:I'd be happy with Bottas leaving if it means Hulkenberg or Grosjean can get in a Williams.
...or Stoffel Vandoorne
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Re: Bottas to Ferrari!?

Post by pokerman »

F1Tyrant wrote:
hittheapex wrote:I'd be happy with Bottas leaving if it means Hulkenberg or Grosjean can get in a Williams.
Neither have done anything that screams: "I am better than Force India/Lotus". Grosjean has quite a lot of $$$ but I don't see that being enough to get him a race seat ahead of Nasr or Ricciardo (who is a free agent for 2016 as well). Hulk is 70% of the way to being a Porsche LMP1 driver.
I would be surprised if Ricciardo is a free agent for 2016
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Re: Bottas to Ferrari!?

Post by Paolo_Lasardi »

Well, so far Bottas appears to be a tad better than Massa, so he should be an upgrade on Räikkönen.

But, yes, if Ricciardo was available, that would be the choice to made. Or if Bianchi would still be around.

Personally, I would also love to see Vettel vs. Hülkenberg.

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