Lewis Hamilton has won races in every season...

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shoot999
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Re: Lewis Hamilton has won races in every season...

Post by shoot999 »

I thought the point of the thread was to discuss the topic of consecutive wins. As the OP pointed out, whilst Hamilton has a win in every season the consecutive record itself is held by Schumacher. But obviously some think discussing a record held by Schumacher in relation to others should be in the Hamilton Official thread. Unless we are to ignore the content of the OPs post and just debate the thread title?
Not that I mind, but I was surprised that the general thrust of the thread was how this is a pretty meaningless statistic and is no measure of greatness. I was impressed by Schumachers 15 consecutive season win stat; adding to his achievements, but I accept that some posters just think 'meh' in relation to consecutive wins; etc.
Perhaps I shoudn't be surprised though. I note that a few who dismiss the relevance of these sort of win stats and see no place for them on a general motorsport thread pepper other motorsport threads with numerous references to Hamiltons dress sense, jewellery and tattoos. No accounting for what fascinates some posters about F1.

ElevenTenths
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Re: Lewis Hamilton has won races in every season...

Post by ElevenTenths »

F1Tyrant wrote:
VDV23 wrote:For the first time in my life, I'd agree that this is a better way to look at things. Stats mean nothing without context.
It really isn't because even the races won without teammate victory is confounded by the fact that Schumacher, Raikkonen, Vettel and Alonso have had much weaker teammates than Hamilton. You can't tell the people who managed spectacular wins in uncompetitive cars from people in spectacular cars with uncompetitive teammates.

I believe, not only have they had weaker teammates, but all of those drivers Schumacher, Vettel and Alonso - Not so much Raikkonen who is slightly above average driver at best, all had a strong team bias in their favour throughout the bulk of their careers as #1 drivers with the team fully behind them. There is nothing wrong with this strategy, but please Need4Naim you cannot compare Apples and Oranges! Furthermore, with Raikkonen, let us not forget that with the only championship he won, he needed the assist of Massa to cleverly run wide (team orders not allowed) and hand him the win in Brazil 2007 to win that Championship!

Pullrod
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Re: Lewis Hamilton has won races in every season...

Post by Pullrod »

I don't understand why people bother starting threads to say anything positive about Hamilton.
It should be clear to anyone with a modicum of intelligence that it is simply not allowed or sensible to do it.

(Just look at the numbers of threads or articles created to give suggestions to Rosberg about the ways to beat Hamilton. I don't remember anything similar done before for Webber, Massa, Raikkonen)

Just Enjoy Hamilton's drives and career and forget about forums or people who will find any reason to belittle his achievements.

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mds
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Re: Lewis Hamilton has won races in every season...

Post by mds »

Pullrod wrote:I don't understand why people bother starting threads to say anything positive about Hamilton.
It should be clear to anybody with a modicum of intelligence that it is simply not allowed or sensible to do it.

(Just look at the numbers of threads or articles created to give suggestions to Rosberg about the ways to beat Hamilton. I don't remember anything similar done before for Webber, Massa, Raikkonen)

Just Enjoy Hamilton's drives and career and forget about forums or people who will find any reason to belittle his achievements.
Seriously. This kind of post, in a thread were almost everyone is discussing in a mature way and fair towards Hamilton?

Yeah, that makes sense.
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Re: Lewis Hamilton has won races in every season...

Post by Pullrod »

mds wrote:
Pullrod wrote:I don't understand why people bother starting threads to say anything positive about Hamilton.
It should be clear to anybody with a modicum of intelligence that it is simply not allowed or sensible to do it.

(Just look at the numbers of threads or articles created to give suggestions to Rosberg about the ways to beat Hamilton. I don't remember anything similar done before for Webber, Massa, Raikkonen)

Just Enjoy Hamilton's drives and career and forget about forums or people who will find any reason to belittle his achievements.
Seriously. This kind of post, in a thread were almost everyone is discussing in a mature way and fair towards Hamilton?

Yeah, that makes sense.
Mature way?
I mostly read posts that don't make sense and to be honest, all the threads of this forums read the same with certain posters writing the same things regardless of the matter that is being discussed.
Last edited by Pullrod on Thu May 07, 2015 11:05 am, edited 2 times in total.

ElevenTenths
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Re: Lewis Hamilton has won races in every season...

Post by ElevenTenths »

pokerman wrote: It just enables him to put Hamilton at the bottom of the list
Well yes he is at the bottom but what is the statistic measuring? A perfect alternative title to this list would be "List of WDC's with An Ascending level of Opposition From the Other Side of the Garage". So yes Hamilton is at the bottom having had the toughest opposition, and Schumacher at the top - each where they both belong. :]
Last edited by ElevenTenths on Thu May 07, 2015 3:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Lewis Hamilton has won races in every season...

Post by mds »

Pullrod wrote:
mds wrote:
Pullrod wrote:I don't understand why people bother starting threads to say anything positive about Hamilton.
It should be clear to anybody with a modicum of intelligence that it is simply not allowed or sensible to do it.

(Just look at the numbers of threads or articles created to give suggestions to Rosberg about the ways to beat Hamilton. I don't remember anything similar done before for Webber, Massa, Raikkonen)

Just Enjoy Hamilton's drives and career and forget about forums or people who will find any reason to belittle his achievements.
Seriously. This kind of post, in a thread were almost everyone is discussing in a mature way and fair towards Hamilton?

Yeah, that makes sense.
Mature way?
I mostly read posts that don't make sense and to be honest,
I read a lot of posts that don't make sense but they mainly come from one person.

Good thing though to see you advocating sensibility and objectivity. You should take a page out of your own book when it comes to discussing Alonso. :thumbup:
Last edited by mds on Thu May 07, 2015 11:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Lewis Hamilton has won races in every season...

Post by Prema »

shoot999 wrote:I thought the point of the thread was to discuss the topic of consecutive wins. As the OP pointed out, whilst Hamilton has a win in every season the consecutive record itself is held by Schumacher. But obviously some think discussing a record held by Schumacher in relation to others should be in the Hamilton Official thread. Unless we are to ignore the content of the OPs post and just debate the thread title?
And I thought so not.
Obviously, the thread's title is supposed to tell what the point of the thread is about. And obviously, it's not about discussing the consecutive wins. Or perhaps whatever record held by Schumacher, but Hamilton. And obviously, the OP's "content" is but a simple question whether anybody else but Lewis has made 9 season in a row, perhaps Schumacher? So one post with "yes" or "no" would satisfy the OP's content. You want to see a debate in the thread, then you got to "derail" it..

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Re: Lewis Hamilton has won races in every season...

Post by Pullrod »

mds wrote:
Pullrod wrote:
mds wrote:
Pullrod wrote:I don't understand why people bother starting threads to say anything positive about Hamilton.
It should be clear to anybody with a modicum of intelligence that it is simply not allowed or sensible to do it.

(Just look at the numbers of threads or articles created to give suggestions to Rosberg about the ways to beat Hamilton. I don't remember anything similar done before for Webber, Massa, Raikkonen)

Just Enjoy Hamilton's drives and career and forget about forums or people who will find any reason to belittle his achievements.
Seriously. This kind of post, in a thread were almost everyone is discussing in a mature way and fair towards Hamilton?

Yeah, that makes sense.
Mature way?
I mostly read posts that don't make sense and to be honest,
I read a lot of posts that don't make sense but they mainly come from one person.

Good thing though to see you advocating sensibility and objectivity. You should take a page out of your own book when it comes to discussing Alonso. :thumbup:
What did i write on the above post that is not sensible? Can you show me the threads about what Webber, Massa or Raikkonen could have done to beat their team mates?
One of the reason I don't rate Alonso(But if a thread pop up about his consecutive point finishes run, I will not going to trying to deny it because it is an objective fact) the way you all seem to rate him is the favour he has in the press/media and unlike England/UK with Hamilton, the Spanish and Italian press was mostly working for him, just like the Italian press did with Schumacher in the past.

The driver has much more influence than people seems to think. You can design the bestest car on the computer, but the guy who turn the wheel and put heat on the tyres(predicting how the tyres or car may behave) is the driver. Otherwise we would have autonomous F1 cars or directly run the F1 championship on supercomputers like in a HighFrequencyTrading competition.

People usually become/perform better when paired/associated with geniuses.. be it in School, Sport, work, art, etc..
If the opposite actually happens, it means that something is seriously wrong.

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mds
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Re: Lewis Hamilton has won races in every season...

Post by mds »

Pullrod wrote: What did i write on the above post that is not sensible?
The whole of your initial post was misplaced to begin with.
That being said, I was talking about your posting behaviour about Alonso in general. Which is in line with what you describe about others doing to Hamilton.
One of the reason I don't rate Alonso(But if a thread pop up about his consecutive point finishes run, I will not going to trying to deny it because it is an objective fact)
Nobody is denying the stat that is being presented here either. What people are doing is discussing the value of the stat and the reasons it came to be.
That is perfectly normal, that is mature and fair, and if you can't handle that I don't know what you are doing on a forum.
the way you all seem to rate him is the favour he has in the press/media and unlike England/UK with Hamilton, the Spanish and Italian press was mostly working for him, just like the Italian press did with Schumacher in the past.
I'm Belgian. Spanish and Italian press don't reach me, and after all those years, by now I know which online media I can trust as a qualitative source for F1 information.

This press argument doesn't fly with me and I'm sure that will be the case for a lot of people.
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Re: Lewis Hamilton has won races in every season...

Post by Pullrod »

mds wrote:
Pullrod wrote: What did i write on the above post that is not sensible?
The whole of your initial post was misplaced to begin with.
That being said, I was talking about your posting behaviour about Alonso in general. Which is in line with what you describe about others doing to Hamilton.
One of the reason I don't rate Alonso(But if a thread pop up about his consecutive point finishes run, I will not going to trying to deny it because it is an objective fact)
Nobody is denying the stat that is being presented here either. What people are doing is discussing the value of the stat and the reasons it came to be.
That is perfectly normal, that is mature and fair, and if you can't handle that I don't know what you are doing on a forum.
the way you all seem to rate him is the favour he has in the press/media and unlike England/UK with Hamilton, the Spanish and Italian press was mostly working for him, just like the Italian press did with Schumacher in the past.
I'm Belgian. Spanish and Italian press don't reach me, and after all those years, by now I know which online media I can trust as a qualitative source for F1 information.

This press argument doesn't fly with me and I'm sure that will be the case for a lot of people
.
With all due respect, I am not here to please you Sir, nor to win Brownie points. :)

I neither want to be or appear to be neutral. I try my best to be "objective" and I like to support what I say with data, as my engineering experience has taught me to do.

The things I discuss about Alonso or any other drivers are subjective facts(bestest driver, Ferrari will fail to reach Q2 without him, He lost the WDC because of his team, etc...).

Objective facts and good things about him are here to see: he has beaten Massa and Raikkonen, he was the only Ferrari driver scoring wins these past years, he has a good reputation, he has had some very good seasons, etc..
__

To reply to OP,

I was sure Hamilton would have got at least 1 pole in 2013, but I was surprised to see him win on a dry track. It would have been 2 wins in 2013 if not for the puncture in Silverstone.

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Re: Lewis Hamilton has won races in every season...

Post by mds »

Pullrod wrote: With all due respect, I am not here to please you Sir, nor to win Brownie points. :)
I don't expect anyone to be here to please me. You said that a reason for the difference in views about Alonso and Hamilton between you and "we all" is treatment in the press. I simply told you why that's not a good argument for me and most probably for a lot of other people as well.
I neither want to be or appear to be neutral. I try my best to be "objective" and I like to support what I say with data, as my engineering experience has taught me to do.

The things I discuss about Alonso or any other drivers are subjective facts(bestest driver, Ferrari will fail to reach Q2 without him, He lost the WDC because of his team, etc...).
Nobody is asking you to be neutral. The whole point of my post was that you went on a rant about how people tend to belittle Hamilton when:
1) you tend to do the same with Alonso, rendering your post hypocrite
2) this thread has mostly been handled maturely and fairly towards Hamilton, making your post to be very much out of place. Heck, the one person that posted a stat that was negative for Hamilton has repeatedly and by several people been pointed out how the stat doesn't work, actively disadvantages Hamilton and how he couldn't exactly help the stat turning out that way either.
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Re: Lewis Hamilton has won races in every season...

Post by Saz »

Pullrod wrote:
The things I discuss about Alonso or any other drivers are subjective facts (bestest driver, Ferrari will fail to reach Q2 without him, He lost the WDC because of his team, etc...).

Objective facts and good things about him are here to see: he has beaten Massa and Raikkonen, he was the only Ferrari driver scoring wins these past years, he has a good reputation, he has had some very good seasons, etc..
I think you need to look up what the word subjective means.

Subjective (adjective) Based on or influenced by personal feelings, tastes, or opinions.

So something subjective cannot be a fact. It can only be opinion. And opinions are up for debate.

And I agree I've read through this whole thread and have seen nothing consitituting 'Hamilton bashing, this thread has been fairily neutral throughout. As mds said, this thread has been people debating the value of the various stats presented, not belitting Hamilton's stat's themselves.
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Re: Lewis Hamilton has won races in every season...

Post by Need4Naiim »

pokerman wrote:
mds wrote:
He counts the number of WCC's they contributed to (which is 4, in Vettel's case) and sets it off against the number of seasons both drivers won a race (which is also 4, in Vettel's case).

I don't get what this statistic would show or prove, by the way, but I've come to expect that with Need4Naiim's statistics.
It just enables him to put Hamilton at the bottom of the list
I never thought about it like that while i was working at it. Why should we think like that first of all? Every stat which are about Champions or Race winners have 100% possibility of having a champion or Race winner at the bottom. This does not show that a regular stat enables this, disables that. I just showed that all-time-great Champions had more than 50% ratio on that list.

My goal is to find logical relationships between various stats. Several stats about F1 champions includes a champion at the bottom of the list in every single one of them.
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Re: Lewis Hamilton has won races in every season...

Post by lamo »

Avoiding IFs then, what was Schumachers percentage at the end of 2001?

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Re: Lewis Hamilton has won races in every season...

Post by Need4Naiim »

lamo wrote:Avoiding IFs then, what was Schumachers percentage at the end of 2001?
<<133%>>

Shows how capable he was, considering he had at least one championship from those WCC titles. He grabbed at least one title for himself -WDC- while the team cars were competitive enough. Hence, he was not only a good teamplayer, but was an exceptional driver too at the end of 2001.
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Re: Lewis Hamilton has won races in every season...

Post by pokerman »

Prema wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
mac_d wrote:The idea of using the WCC's as a part of the measure to compare drivers seems rather off.

For one, I'd also take issue with including 2007, at least without an asterisk on it. I don't think Alonso or Hamilton could really be blamed at all for it. And given they would have won that WCC, I really think it needs the asterisk. I don't disagree with the final outcome, but I do think it should be asterisked.


Secondly, I don't see how you can compare them in general. While it's a team sport, it doesn't work for comparing drivers. 2008 Hamilton with, sadly, anyone but Kovi would probably have put up a decent shout for that WCC. Kovi was the weak link of the top 6 drivers of that year, and let's be honest. He would almost certainly never have gotten that seat if it wasn't for Alonso, McLaren, Briatore and Renault taking a hit to get out of a bit of unpleasantness.
The problem is that people have allowed Need4Naiim to derail the thread into a pointless exercise in generating and comparing meaningless statistics.
The problem is that such a piece of statistic got no life on its own, and perhaps better fit in the Official Hamilton Thread for those who might be interested to read it. If to have a thread on that, then "derailing" was the only way to give the thread some existence beyond one or two posts.
You make a good point there, actually I think it has already been pointed out in the official thread, I guess it was open duck season for some?
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Re: Lewis Hamilton has won races in every season...

Post by pokerman »

Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
mac_d wrote:The idea of using the WCC's as a part of the measure to compare drivers seems rather off.

For one, I'd also take issue with including 2007, at least without an asterisk on it. I don't think Alonso or Hamilton could really be blamed at all for it. And given they would have won that WCC, I really think it needs the asterisk. I don't disagree with the final outcome, but I do think it should be asterisked.


Secondly, I don't see how you can compare them in general. While it's a team sport, it doesn't work for comparing drivers. 2008 Hamilton with, sadly, anyone but Kovi would probably have put up a decent shout for that WCC. Kovi was the weak link of the top 6 drivers of that year, and let's be honest. He would almost certainly never have gotten that seat if it wasn't for Alonso, McLaren, Briatore and Renault taking a hit to get out of a bit of unpleasantness.
The problem is that people have allowed Need4Naiim to derail the thread into a pointless exercise in generating and comparing meaningless statistics.
Yes exactly the same point I made earlier, an exercise to take away any credibility of achievement by Hamilton
I thought the point of creating a thread on the topic was to discuss it? Otherwise, as Prema has pointed out, it would probably have been best served as an entry in the Official Lewis Hamilton thread. But I don't see how anybody may be surprised that statistical comparisons will be made in a thread about an ambiguous statistic?
Yes it perhaps wasn't worthy of a thread in itself
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Re: Lewis Hamilton has won races in every season...

Post by pokerman »

mds wrote:
Pullrod wrote:I don't understand why people bother starting threads to say anything positive about Hamilton.
It should be clear to anybody with a modicum of intelligence that it is simply not allowed or sensible to do it.

(Just look at the numbers of threads or articles created to give suggestions to Rosberg about the ways to beat Hamilton. I don't remember anything similar done before for Webber, Massa, Raikkonen)

Just Enjoy Hamilton's drives and career and forget about forums or people who will find any reason to belittle his achievements.
Seriously. This kind of post, in a thread were almost everyone is discussing in a mature way and fair towards Hamilton?

Yeah, that makes sense.
Fair towards Hamilton? ok
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Re: Lewis Hamilton has won races in every season...

Post by pokerman »

mds wrote:
Pullrod wrote:
mds wrote:
Pullrod wrote:I don't understand why people bother starting threads to say anything positive about Hamilton.
It should be clear to anybody with a modicum of intelligence that it is simply not allowed or sensible to do it.

(Just look at the numbers of threads or articles created to give suggestions to Rosberg about the ways to beat Hamilton. I don't remember anything similar done before for Webber, Massa, Raikkonen)

Just Enjoy Hamilton's drives and career and forget about forums or people who will find any reason to belittle his achievements.
Seriously. This kind of post, in a thread were almost everyone is discussing in a mature way and fair towards Hamilton?

Yeah, that makes sense.
Mature way?
I mostly read posts that don't make sense and to be honest,
I read a lot of posts that don't make sense but they mainly come from one person.

Good thing though to see you advocating sensibility and objectivity. You should take a page out of your own book when it comes to discussing Alonso. :thumbup:
That one person is flooding the thread with posts though and seems to be getting credence from some posters
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Re: Lewis Hamilton has won races in every season...

Post by Black_Flag_11 »

pokerman wrote:
mds wrote:
Pullrod wrote:I don't understand why people bother starting threads to say anything positive about Hamilton.
It should be clear to anybody with a modicum of intelligence that it is simply not allowed or sensible to do it.

(Just look at the numbers of threads or articles created to give suggestions to Rosberg about the ways to beat Hamilton. I don't remember anything similar done before for Webber, Massa, Raikkonen)

Just Enjoy Hamilton's drives and career and forget about forums or people who will find any reason to belittle his achievements.
Seriously. This kind of post, in a thread were almost everyone is discussing in a mature way and fair towards Hamilton?

Yeah, that makes sense.
Fair towards Hamilton? ok
He did say almost everyone. Aside from one poster I can't see anyone being unfair.

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Re: Lewis Hamilton has won races in every season...

Post by pokerman »

Need4Naiim wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mds wrote:
He counts the number of WCC's they contributed to (which is 4, in Vettel's case) and sets it off against the number of seasons both drivers won a race (which is also 4, in Vettel's case).

I don't get what this statistic would show or prove, by the way, but I've come to expect that with Need4Naiim's statistics.
It just enables him to put Hamilton at the bottom of the list
I never thought about it like that while i was working at it. Why should we think like that first of all? Every stat which are about Champions or Race winners have 100% possibility of having a champion or Race winner at the bottom. This does not show that a regular stat enables this, disables that. I just showed that all-time-great Champions had more than 50% ratio on that list.

My goal is to find logical relationships between various stats. Several stats about F1 champions includes a champion at the bottom of the list in every single one of them.
I like to think of myself as a logical person but I fail to see the logic or relevance
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Re: Lewis Hamilton has won races in every season...

Post by pokerman »

Black_Flag_11 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mds wrote:
Pullrod wrote:I don't understand why people bother starting threads to say anything positive about Hamilton.
It should be clear to anybody with a modicum of intelligence that it is simply not allowed or sensible to do it.

(Just look at the numbers of threads or articles created to give suggestions to Rosberg about the ways to beat Hamilton. I don't remember anything similar done before for Webber, Massa, Raikkonen)

Just Enjoy Hamilton's drives and career and forget about forums or people who will find any reason to belittle his achievements.
Seriously. This kind of post, in a thread were almost everyone is discussing in a mature way and fair towards Hamilton?

Yeah, that makes sense.
Fair towards Hamilton? ok
He did say almost everyone. Aside from one poster I can't see anyone being unfair.
What I see is posts of irrelevant statistics to the thread topic having some kind of credible relevance for some posters
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Re: Lewis Hamilton has won races in every season...

Post by Black_Flag_11 »

pokerman wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mds wrote:
Pullrod wrote:I don't understand why people bother starting threads to say anything positive about Hamilton.
It should be clear to anybody with a modicum of intelligence that it is simply not allowed or sensible to do it.

(Just look at the numbers of threads or articles created to give suggestions to Rosberg about the ways to beat Hamilton. I don't remember anything similar done before for Webber, Massa, Raikkonen)

Just Enjoy Hamilton's drives and career and forget about forums or people who will find any reason to belittle his achievements.
Seriously. This kind of post, in a thread were almost everyone is discussing in a mature way and fair towards Hamilton?

Yeah, that makes sense.
Fair towards Hamilton? ok
He did say almost everyone. Aside from one poster I can't see anyone being unfair.
What I see is posts of irrelevant statistics to the thread topic having some kind of credible relevance for some posters
I must not be seeing things then. I see one poster has provided alternative statistics, one post of support for them and then several pages of people pointing out how they are flawed.

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Re: Lewis Hamilton has won races in every season...

Post by pokerman »

Black_Flag_11 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mds wrote: Seriously. This kind of post, in a thread were almost everyone is discussing in a mature way and fair towards Hamilton?

Yeah, that makes sense.
Fair towards Hamilton? ok
He did say almost everyone. Aside from one poster I can't see anyone being unfair.
What I see is posts of irrelevant statistics to the thread topic having some kind of credible relevance for some posters
I must not be seeing things then. I see one poster has provided alternative statistics, one post of support for them and then several pages of people pointing out how they are flawed.
...or several pages of people not realising that they are flawed
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Re: Lewis Hamilton has won races in every season...

Post by Black_Flag_11 »

And yet we don't have several pages of people defending the alternative statistics. Just condemning them. So I don't quite see where you get that impression.

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Re: Lewis Hamilton has won races in every season...

Post by Exediron »

Black_Flag_11 wrote:And yet we don't have several pages of people defending the alternative statistics. Just condemning them. So I don't quite see where you get that impression.
I don't either. Perhaps he's confusing debating politely for not seeing the flaws?
PICK 10 COMPETITION (6 wins, 18 podiums): 3rd in 2016
TOP THREE CHAMPIONSHIP (No Limit Excedrin Racing): Champions in 2015 & 2018 | 2nd in 2017 & 2019
AUTOSPORT GP PREDICTOR: 2017 USA & P-F1 Champion

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