Career perspective: Hulkenberg, Grosjean and Perez

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GPG
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Career perspective: Hulkenberg, Grosjean and Perez

Post by GPG »

I used to believe that Nico Hulkenberg, Romain Grosjean and Sergio Perez would one day win a Grand Prix. All three have shown to be more than capable F1 drivers and are all approaching 100 Grand Prix. Nevertheless, some good drivers have made their debut in the past few years and of the current elite drivers only Kimi Raikkonen seems to be close to retirement. In other words, the seats at the works teams are scarce and competition is fierce.

I can't help but think that Nico Hulkenberg, Romain Grosjean and Sergio Perez despite performing well in sub-par material, are not considered for a drive at Mercedes, Ferrari, Red Bull or Mclaren any time soon. Has their moment to move up passed and with that their chance to win a Grand Prix?
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Re: Career perspective: Hulkenberg, Grosjean and Perez

Post by mds »

For Perez it might be too late already - he has moved to McLaren, but the move backfired in a terrible way and I'm not sure his career will ever recover from that as he has now gotten the stamp "failed at McLaren".

As for Hulkenberg, I still see chances. Suppose that Rosberg leaves Mercedes for whatever reason, or Raikkonen doesn't get a contract extension somewhere between now and 2-3 years, I could see Hulkenberg move up.

Grosjean then. While a solid and dependable driver, I'm not sure teams would pursue him over some other drivers that would be willing to switch teams.

Looking at teams, RBR and McLaren are likely to draw from their youth talent pool (Verstappen, Sainz at RBR, Vandoorne, Magnussen at McLaren) so I don't see either of the three drivers you mentioned going there.
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Re: Career perspective: Hulkenberg, Grosjean and Perez

Post by Beschy »

Yeah I think there is a general feeling that this is the case with the likes of Verstappen now coming through.

Perez - I think he's had his shot. He was unlucky to get a turd of a McLaren to drive, but he looked erratic in it most of the time and I can't see another top team giving him a shot. He's a good value for money choice for a midfield team, which is what he is.

Grosjean - I highly rate Grosjean. I've heard a from a few sources that insiders have said he has phenomenal speed. This article is well worth a read: http://www.motorsportmagazine.com/f1/ro ... s-reality/ (Grosjean - Perception vs. Reality)

I think out of the three he has the best shot at a top drive. It would require one of the top teams to take a bit of a punt, but I think it's perfectly feasible. It's also possible that Lotus come good again and give him a machine to shine in.

Hulk - Sadly I think he's going to get overlooked. He needed to win (or at least get a podium) at Brazil 2012. It was his moment to shine and he choked. Although I don't think a career should be defined by one moment like that I think in the absence of another standout performance this will be the moment he stuffed his chances.
Last edited by Beschy on Tue Apr 28, 2015 9:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Career perspective: Hulkenberg, Grosjean and Perez

Post by Beschy »

Duplicate.
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Re: Career perspective: Hulkenberg, Grosjean and Perez

Post by mikeyg123 »

I still think Perez and Hulkenberg are the best drivers out there not to have won a GP and both would be in my top 10.

However they perform this year though both there stocks will fall. They are both stuck with a car that will only be able to nick the odd point, and with a team mate who is neither an established star or someone they will dominate. Its a toxic combination sadly, and a career killer. Pretty much what killed Vergne's career.

Both have had opportunities to win but sadly neither could take it. I hope they will get the chance again.

Grosjean I find harder to rate. Whilst I would say he is definitely of a high enough standard for a solid career I am not sure he has what it takes to compete with a top line driver and I don't rate him as highly as Perez or Hulkenberg. He really was not close to Kimi during there time together and whilst Maldanado is inconsistent he seems to be at least a match of Grosjean for race pace.

I think Grosjean spent enough time in race winning cars for it to be a reasonable expectation that he should have taken a win if he was going to be a top F1 driver.

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Re: Career perspective: Hulkenberg, Grosjean and Perez

Post by F1Tyrant »

Hulkenberg is a bit of an enigma. Reliable yet unspectacular when his junior record was simply spectacular. You can't look at his season in A1GP and think it was unspectacular. It seems as he has climbed closer to the pinnacle he's played it safer and safer. Perhaps his competition at junior level was weak and it wouldn't surprise me if timing was a crucial factor in his acceleration through the junior ladder. Either way, I consider him to be pretty close to Rosberg but not faster. I mean Rosberg managed podiums in a pretty bad Williams, I suspect if he'd taken Perez's 3rd place at Bahrain then it would still have been too late.

Grosjean has proved to be nothing more than veteran GP2 runner: a refined, more sensible, Maldonado. Alonso and Raikkonen annihilated him and he failed to capitalise on positions where he had the 2nd best car in 2012 and 2013 to claim a victory. It is telling that Maldonado took his one opportunity to win where Grosjean had a handful of attempts. The Frenchman's pouting after "suffering" the terrible 2014 Lotus were immensely frustrating. I certainly wouldn't miss him if he left.

Perez had his shot and got badly burned by Jenson Button. No offence to Jenson but any up and coming star should be able to challenge or beat him. His tyre management abilities will always help him in a midfield team, but at the cutting edge at the front of the grid, clever tyre strategies aren't as fruitful.

I don't see any of them winning races but all are suitable to be midfield runners in the mould of Olivier Panis, Jarno Trulli and Giancarlo Fisichella but below the likes of Massa, Webber and Rosberg.
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Re: Career perspective: Hulkenberg, Grosjean and Perez

Post by Beschy »

mikeyg123 wrote: Grosjean I find harder to rate. Whilst I would say he is definitely of a high enough standard for a solid career I am not sure he has what it takes to compete with a top line driver and I don't rate him as highly as Perez or Hulkenberg. He really was not close to Kimi during there time together and whilst Maldanado is inconsistent he seems to be at least a match of Grosjean for race pace.

I think Grosjean spent enough time in race winning cars for it to be a reasonable expectation that he should have taken a win if he was going to be a top F1 driver
.
Rubbish.

He performed pretty well against Raikonnen. He had a stupid number of clumsy DNF's in '12, but the pace was there (P3 in qualifying in Australia?). In '13 he outpaced Raikonnen towards the end of the season - you can claim that was due to Raikonnen being demotivated, but that's a cop out IMO - there's no place for half arsed performances at this level.

He also paced well against Alonso in their time together, contrary to common conception. Read this article for insight: http://www.motorsportmagazine.com/f1/ro ... s-reality/
“Some of the things we saw from him in testing,” says a senior Pirelli man who sees all the data from all the teams, “were just amazing. In the entry speeds and momentum through fast corners in particular, the loads he could generate and maintain, the level of instability he could live with to keep the momentum up beyond the level that looked feasible for the car, the inputs he’d make that kept the car on that edge, I’d say he’s the fastest guy out there. We’d see this consistently from him.” It was this that allowed him to come within a sniff of victory at the Nürburgring and Suzuka in 2013, stretching Red Bull to its very limits in a car that was definitely not as quick.
Last edited by Beschy on Tue Apr 28, 2015 9:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Career perspective: Hulkenberg, Grosjean and Perez

Post by mikeyg123 »

Surprised by people saying things like "Perez has had his shot" The Mclaren he drove was certainly no better than a midfield car and he had terrible luck throughout the year.

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Re: Career perspective: Hulkenberg, Grosjean and Perez

Post by Beschy »

mikeyg123 wrote:Surprised by people saying things like "Perez has had his shot" The Mclaren he drove was certainly no better than a midfield car and he had terrible luck throughout the year.
All true, but when he didn't have bad luck he still looked relatively ordinary against Button, which is a good achievement, but not the standout excellence top teams generally look for.
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Re: Career perspective: Hulkenberg, Grosjean and Perez

Post by dizlexik »

Beschy wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote: Grosjean I find harder to rate. Whilst I would say he is definitely of a high enough standard for a solid career I am not sure he has what it takes to compete with a top line driver and I don't rate him as highly as Perez or Hulkenberg. He really was not close to Kimi during there time together and whilst Maldanado is inconsistent he seems to be at least a match of Grosjean for race pace.

I think Grosjean spent enough time in race winning cars for it to be a reasonable expectation that he should have taken a win if he was going to be a top F1 driver
.
Rubbish.

He performed pretty well against Raikonnen. He had a stupid number of clumsy DNF's in '12, but the pace was there (P3 in qualifying in Australia?). In '13 he outpaced Raikonnen towards the end of the season - you can claim that was due to Raikonnen being demotivated, but that's a cop out IMO - there's no place for half arsed performances at this level.

He also paced well against Alonso in their time together, contrary to common conception. Read this article for insight: http://www.motorsportmagazine.com/f1/ro ... s-reality/
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Re: Career perspective: Hulkenberg, Grosjean and Perez

Post by mds »

F1Tyrant wrote:Hulkenberg is a bit of an enigma. Reliable yet unspectacular when his junior record was simply spectacular. You can't look at his season in A1GP and think it was unspectacular. It seems as he has climbed closer to the pinnacle he's played it safer and safer. Perhaps his competition at junior level was weak and it wouldn't surprise me if timing was a crucial factor in his acceleration through the junior ladder.
Well, competition in feeder series is always weaker than in F1 itself - and the lower in the feeder series ranks you get, the weaker the competition typically gets.

However, I think Hulkenberg had harder than average competition in the feeder series. Already in BMW ADAC he raced against two drivers that went on to reach F1 (Bianchi and Perez). I haven't checked it but three drivers in a national entry level feeder series season who go on to reach F1 must be quite a lot and can be nothing other than way above average.

In GP2 he even faced 9 drivers who showed up in F1. Not all of them were the greatest talents, but still, that's a lot, and he won the title in his rookie season.
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Re: Career perspective: Hulkenberg, Grosjean and Perez

Post by Need4Naiim »

From those three, only HULKENBERG did not drive against a World Champion teammate. He beat a more experienced Perez with a bigger margin than the WDC Button. People always will talk about the 2012 Brazil race, but they should remember that the only reason that FI car was battling with the a-lot-faster McLarens which were being driven by CHAMPIONS was the Hulk <himself>. And he won't do the same mistake after 3 more years of experience, now in 2015. Sebastian <the-4-time-champ> did far more mistakes than Hulk before 2011 {he had been labelled as "crash kid" by Whitmarsh in 2010}. And bear in mind that 2012 was Hulkenberg's second season only. Apart from Senna and Michael on their prime, IMHO, noone could have won that Sao Paulo race with a Force-India against two fast McLarens driven by Jenson and Lewis. Just because inexperience got him there <FAR from that FI's expected place>, we should not write him off cruelly.

#Did he drive a race winning car? No.
#Did he lose to a World Champion teammate? No.
#Did he drive a title-capable car in his rookie season like Villeneuve? No.
#Is the 2015 version of Hulkenberg completely same as the 2010 version of Hulk who drove against Barrichello who is the most experienced Formula 1 driver of history? No.
#Did Hulkenberg may learn something very pivotal from Barrichello's experiences? Yes, possibly through 10 months of partnership.
#Were there race(s) where an all-time-great couldn't hit the podium while his teammate hit? Yes.
#Did they deserve to be overlooked because of it? No, certainly not.

I DO think Hulkenberg deserve a shot alongside a champ before writing him off. If anything, there is not a single champion on the current grid who will want to drive against him at the same team, i guess.
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Re: Career perspective: Hulkenberg, Grosjean and Perez

Post by F1Tyrant »

mds wrote:In GP2 he even faced 9 drivers who showed up in F1. Not all of them were the greatest talents, but still, that's a lot, and he won the title in his rookie season.
Point taken. A cursory glance at his results that season suggest that most of his advantage came from keeping his nose clean and having 2 less retirements than Petrov and 4 less retirements than di Grassi, aside from his dominating weekends in Germany and Valencia.

That suggests a theme we've all noticed: reliable yet unspectacular (most of the time).
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Re: Career perspective: Hulkenberg, Grosjean and Perez

Post by mds »

F1Tyrant wrote:
mds wrote:In GP2 he even faced 9 drivers who showed up in F1. Not all of them were the greatest talents, but still, that's a lot, and he won the title in his rookie season.
Point taken. A cursory glance at his results that season suggest that most of his advantage came from keeping his nose clean and having 2 less retirements than Petrov and 4 less retirements than di Grassi, aside from his dominating weekends in Germany and Valencia.

That suggests a theme we've all noticed: reliable yet unspectacular (most of the time).
I'm not sure that's fair to him. Even correcting at 10 points for a win, that doesn't give the others enough points. Moreover, both Petrov and di Grassi were vastly more experienced in the series.

Hülkenberg really took GP2 by storm in 2009. He convincingly won the most races, obtained the most podiums, and only won one of his races from pole (even accounting for reversed-grid races).
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Re: Career perspective: Hulkenberg, Grosjean and Perez

Post by pubpokerplayer »

Need4Naiim wrote:From those three, only HULKENBERG did not drive against a World Champion teammate. He beat a more experienced Perez with a bigger margin than the WDC Button. People always will talk about the 2012 Brazil race, but they should remember that the only reason that FI car was battling with the a-lot-faster McLarens which were being driven by CHAMPIONS was the Hulk <himself>. And he won't do the same mistake after 3 more years of experience, now in 2015. Sebastian <the-4-time-champ> did far more mistakes than Hulk before 2011 {he had been labelled as "crash kid" by Whitmarsh in 2010}. And bear in mind that 2012 was Hulkenberg's second season only. Apart from Senna and Michael on their prime, IMHO, noone could have won that Sao Paulo race with a Force-India against two fast McLarens driven by Jenson and Lewis. Just because inexperience got him there <FAR from that FI's expected place>, we should not write him off cruelly.

#Did he drive a race winning car? No.
#Did he lose to a World Champion teammate? No.
#Did he drive a title-capable car in his rookie season like Villeneuve? No.
#Does 2015 version of Hulkenberg is the same 2010 version of Hulk who drove against Barrichello who is the most experienced Formula 1 driver of history? No.
#Did Hulkenberg may learn something very pivotal from Barrichello's experiences? Yes, possibly through 10 months of partnership.
#Were there race(s) where an all-time-great couldn't hit the podium while his teammate hit? Yes.
#Did they deserve to be overlooked because of it? No, certainly not.

I DO think Hulkenberg deserve a shot alongside a champ before writing him off. If anything, there is not a single champion on the current grid who will want to drive against him at the same team, i guess.
You mention Hulkenberg beat Perez by a wider margin than Button. Looking at the points total between them two is just a lazy way of looking at it. It was obvious to most to see last year and again this year that the two are very closely matched.

For me Hulk is the last of the three drivers I what want. I would love to see Grosjean get an oppertunity in a top car his 2013 was brilliant he was the only driver towards the end of the season constantly applying pressure and he was unlucky that he came up against a driver in dominant form.

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Re: Career perspective: Hulkenberg, Grosjean and Perez

Post by mikeyg123 »

dizlexik wrote:
Beschy wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote: Grosjean I find harder to rate. Whilst I would say he is definitely of a high enough standard for a solid career I am not sure he has what it takes to compete with a top line driver and I don't rate him as highly as Perez or Hulkenberg. He really was not close to Kimi during there time together and whilst Maldanado is inconsistent he seems to be at least a match of Grosjean for race pace.

I think Grosjean spent enough time in race winning cars for it to be a reasonable expectation that he should have taken a win if he was going to be a top F1 driver
.
Rubbish.

He performed pretty well against Raikonnen. He had a stupid number of clumsy DNF's in '12, but the pace was there (P3 in qualifying in Australia?). In '13 he outpaced Raikonnen towards the end of the season - you can claim that was due to Raikonnen being demotivated, but that's a cop out IMO - there's no place for half arsed performances at this level.

He also paced well against Alonso in their time together, contrary to common conception. Read this article for insight: http://www.motorsportmagazine.com/f1/ro ... s-reality/
:thumbup: :thumbup:
He had two seasons in a race winning car and won 0 races.

I also don't remember him getting on terms with Raikkonen's pace on a consistent basis, obviously there was the odd race.

He was over 60 points back when Kimi left the Lotus team in 2013 and 7/4 behind in finishes ahead when both finished.

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Re: Career perspective: Hulkenberg, Grosjean and Perez

Post by mikeyg123 »

Beschy wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:Surprised by people saying things like "Perez has had his shot" The Mclaren he drove was certainly no better than a midfield car and he had terrible luck throughout the year.
All true, but when he didn't have bad luck he still looked relatively ordinary against Button, which is a good achievement, but not the standout excellence top teams generally look for.
I would agree Perez maximum potential is about a Button level driver. Hulk probably similar.

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Re: Career perspective: Hulkenberg, Grosjean and Perez

Post by DOLOMITE »

I was thinking about this just the other day. I'm not 100% convinced by Perez, Grosjean is still seems to have a god profile and time/opportunity on his side, but the Hulk is slowly becoming the new Nick Heidfeld. Must be initials. 80 starts, no podiums and he;s already venturing outside of F1.
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Re: Career perspective: Hulkenberg, Grosjean and Perez

Post by Need4Naiim »

pubpokerplayer wrote:You mention Hulkenberg beat Perez by a wider margin than Button. Looking at the points total between them two is just a lazy way of looking at it. It was obvious to most to see last year and again this year that the two are very closely matched.
You can keep looking at the other things apart from points total at the season end. This does not change the fact that Jenson got a championship whereas "his closely-matched teammate throughout same season" couldn't get a CLOSELY-MATCHED title.

When you read my above post about HULKENBERG, you can see i am so "lazy".
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Re: Career perspective: Hulkenberg, Grosjean and Perez

Post by GPG »

All of them have shown good performances and I agree with some of the posters above. Compared to high-rated teammates (Raikkonen, Button) they were usually on the losing side.

Something else which hasn't been discussed is the competition; It's not unthinkable that Ferrari would choose Valtteri Bottas over Hulkenberg, Grosjean or Perez when Kimi Raikkonen retires. Red Bull and McLaren have their own talent programs which have good prospects in the form of Verstappen/Sainz and Magnussen/Vandoorne.

I personally think that they are all looking at a decent career at sub-top or midfield teams, possibly a number two role at a works team if someone is released from his contract. This somehow feels unrewarding.
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Re: Career perspective: Hulkenberg, Grosjean and Perez

Post by F1Tyrant »

pubpokerplayer wrote:You mention Hulkenberg beat Perez by a wider margin than Button. Looking at the points total between them two is just a lazy way of looking at it. It was obvious to most to see last year and again this year that the two are very closely matched.
It was ridiculous how closely matched Hulkenberg and Di Resta were: 10-9 to Hulk excluding mechanical DNFs.

Hulkenberg vs Perez is going very much in the same direction. After 2014 it was: 9-7 to Hulk. After four races this season it's 10-9 to Hulk again!

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Re: Career perspective: Hulkenberg, Grosjean and Perez

Post by nixxxon »

Perez vs Hulkenberg 2014... surely Hulk was more consistent and ended up grabbing quite a lot more points, but the most spectacular performances were from Perez. No podium for hulkenberg and Perez crashed out of a brilliant canada GP because of Massa.

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Re: Career perspective: Hulkenberg, Grosjean and Perez

Post by mikeyg123 »

nixxxon wrote:Perez vs Hulkenberg 2014... surely Hulk was more consistent and ended up grabbing quite a lot more points, but the most spectacular performances were from Perez. No podium for hulkenberg and Perez crashed out of a brilliant canada GP because of Massa.
Hulk was slightly better in the first half of the year when the car was capable of scoring a lot more points, and Perez lost a lot of points to Hulk in the first two races through no fault of his own. Perez slightly outscored Hulk in the second half of the season, but by then the car could only grab a couple of points in each race.

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Re: Career perspective: Hulkenberg, Grosjean and Perez

Post by dizlexik »

mikeyg123 wrote:
dizlexik wrote:
Beschy wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote: Grosjean I find harder to rate. Whilst I would say he is definitely of a high enough standard for a solid career I am not sure he has what it takes to compete with a top line driver and I don't rate him as highly as Perez or Hulkenberg. He really was not close to Kimi during there time together and whilst Maldanado is inconsistent he seems to be at least a match of Grosjean for race pace.

I think Grosjean spent enough time in race winning cars for it to be a reasonable expectation that he should have taken a win if he was going to be a top F1 driver
.
Rubbish.

He performed pretty well against Raikonnen. He had a stupid number of clumsy DNF's in '12, but the pace was there (P3 in qualifying in Australia?). In '13 he outpaced Raikonnen towards the end of the season - you can claim that was due to Raikonnen being demotivated, but that's a cop out IMO - there's no place for half arsed performances at this level.

He also paced well against Alonso in their time together, contrary to common conception. Read this article for insight: http://www.motorsportmagazine.com/f1/ro ... s-reality/
:thumbup: :thumbup:
He had two seasons in a race winning car and won 0 races.

I also don't remember him getting on terms with Raikkonen's pace on a consistent basis, obviously there was the odd race.

He was over 60 points back when Kimi left the Lotus team in 2013 and 7/4 behind in finishes ahead when both finished.
Kimi won just 2 races in Lotus. Both Kimi and Romain scroed a lot of podiums. In 2013 RoGro still had 3 mechanical failures (last one in Brazil). Kimi had just one. Keep in mind that Kimi was rated best or one of the best driver in 2012 and 2013. Even though RoGro isn't the most talented driver, he still can be very quick and can be consistent. Hulkenberg showed nothing to consider him better than Grosjean. He scored just single 4th place and few 5th places. Also I don't understand how can you rate both Perez and Hulk so highly when Hulk has comfortably beaten Perez in 2014. I thought this was argument used by you against Grosjean in 2013? One of them has to be much worse.
eeee

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Re: Career perspective: Hulkenberg, Grosjean and Perez

Post by mikeyg123 »

dizlexik wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
dizlexik wrote:
Beschy wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote: Grosjean I find harder to rate. Whilst I would say he is definitely of a high enough standard for a solid career I am not sure he has what it takes to compete with a top line driver and I don't rate him as highly as Perez or Hulkenberg. He really was not close to Kimi during there time together and whilst Maldanado is inconsistent he seems to be at least a match of Grosjean for race pace.

I think Grosjean spent enough time in race winning cars for it to be a reasonable expectation that he should have taken a win if he was going to be a top F1 driver
.
Rubbish.

He performed pretty well against Raikonnen. He had a stupid number of clumsy DNF's in '12, but the pace was there (P3 in qualifying in Australia?). In '13 he outpaced Raikonnen towards the end of the season - you can claim that was due to Raikonnen being demotivated, but that's a cop out IMO - there's no place for half arsed performances at this level.

He also paced well against Alonso in their time together, contrary to common conception. Read this article for insight: http://www.motorsportmagazine.com/f1/ro ... s-reality/
:thumbup: :thumbup:
He had two seasons in a race winning car and won 0 races.

I also don't remember him getting on terms with Raikkonen's pace on a consistent basis, obviously there was the odd race.

He was over 60 points back when Kimi left the Lotus team in 2013 and 7/4 behind in finishes ahead when both finished.
Kimi won just 2 races in Lotus. Both Kimi and Romain scroed a lot of podiums. In 2013 RoGro still had 3 mechanical failures (last one in Brazil). Kimi had just one. Keep in mind that Kimi was rated best or one of the best driver in 2012 and 2013. Even though RoGro isn't the most talented driver, he still can be very quick and can be consistent. Hulkenberg showed nothing to consider him better than Grosjean. He scored just single 4th place and few 5th places. Also I don't understand how can you rate both Perez and Hulk so highly when Hulk has comfortably beaten Perez in 2014. I thought this was argument used by you against Grosjean in 2013? One of them has to be much worse.
The points gap between them can be explained and it was misleading. Have a look at the posts above.

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Re: Career perspective: Hulkenberg, Grosjean and Perez

Post by mds »

GPG wrote: Something else which hasn't been discussed is the competition; It's not unthinkable that Ferrari would choose Valtteri Bottas over Hulkenberg, Grosjean or Perez when Kimi Raikkonen retires. Red Bull and McLaren have their own talent programs which have good prospects in the form of Verstappen/Sainz and Magnussen/Vandoorne.
Yeah I'm pretty sure I mentioned most of what you're written here :D
Go Vandoorne :( - Verstappen - Vettel!

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Re: Career perspective: Hulkenberg, Grosjean and Perez

Post by Need4Naiim »

mikeyg123 wrote:The points gap between them can be explained and it was misleading. Have a look at the posts above.
When the car becomes more competitive, Hulkenberg's driving becomes a lot harder to be equalled by his teammates. This <alone> shows what wonders he can make once he drives a race winning car. He never drove a FW-18 against Hill, or MP4-22 against Alonso, or RB10 against Vettel.

Being on the wrong cars to get race wins does not mean he CAN'T. Jenson was given a race winning car first time in his 7th season . Hulkenberg is having his 5th season currently.
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Re: Career perspective: Hulkenberg, Grosjean and Perez

Post by mikeyg123 »

Need4Naiim wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:The points gap between them can be explained and it was misleading. Have a look at the posts above.
When the car becomes more competitive, Hulkenberg's driving becomes a lot harder to be equalled by his teammates. This <alone> shows what wonders he can make once he drives a race winning car. He never drove a FW-18 against Hill, or MP4-22 against Alonso, or RB10 against Vettel.

Being on the wrong cars to get race wins does not mean he CAN'T. Jenson was given a race winning car first time in his 7th season . Hulkenberg is having his 5th season currently.
Not quite sure the stats back that up. Hulks best finish in 2014 was several 5th places. The only time Perez finished one of those races he finished ahead of Hulk.

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Re: Career perspective: Hulkenberg, Grosjean and Perez

Post by dizlexik »

mikeyg123 wrote: The points gap between them can be explained and it was misleading. Have a look at the posts above.
Which post(s)? My main point is that RoGro was beaten by one of the highest rated driver at that time during his first 2 full seasons in F1. We know what Romain Gosjean is capable of in good car. That obviously doesn't make him great driver, but neither are Perez or Hulkenberg. I still didn't hear any explanation why are they better. Perez from time to time has some brilliant race, but Hulk never had such.
eeee

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Re: Career perspective: Hulkenberg, Grosjean and Perez

Post by mikeyg123 »

dizlexik wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote: The points gap between them can be explained and it was misleading. Have a look at the posts above.
Which post(s)? My main point is that RoGro was beaten by one of the highest rated driver at that time during his first 2 full seasons in F1. We know what Romain Gosjean is capable of in good car. That obviously doesn't make him great driver, but neither are Perez or Hulkenberg. I still didn't hear any explanation why are they better. Perez from time to time has some brilliant race, but Hulk never had such.
Oh sorry I was referring to explanations regarding the points gap between Hulk/Perez.

I agree there is no real evidence to suggest that Grosjean is better than Hulk/Perez or vice versa. Just something that comes down to opinion.

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Re: Career perspective: Hulkenberg, Grosjean and Perez

Post by sandman1347 »

This era reminds a little of the Senna/Prost/Mansell/Piquet era in that the top seats were almost monopolized by a handful of drivers for several years. For people like Grosjean and Hulkenberg; this has been a disaster as they seem hopeless to really break through against guys that are essentially their peers. Hulkenberg is the same age as Vettel and he has yet to even finish on the podium. Perez went to McLaren at the worst possible time and he didn't perform well either. Grosjean was obliterated by Alonso back in 2009 and was soundly defeated by Kimi in 2012-2013. I doubt a top team would sign him when there are so many clearly superior options out there.

With younger drivers like Ricciardo, Verstappen and Bottas having arguably higher stock, it seems likely that, should a top seat become vacant, Grosjean, Perez and Hulkenberg would be passed up. I can see a possibility for Hulkenberg. Right or wrong, I think people tend to rate him a bit above the other two and it's possible that a top team might sign him as a sort of #2 driver instead of someone they fear might rock the boat.

For the most part though, I think these guys will have to luck out the way that Massa did in moving to Williams if they want a truly competitive car.

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Re: Career perspective: Hulkenberg, Grosjean and Perez

Post by pubpokerplayer »

Need4Naiim wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:The points gap between them can be explained and it was misleading. Have a look at the posts above.
When the car becomes more competitive, Hulkenberg's driving becomes a lot harder to be equalled by his teammates. This <alone> shows what wonders he can make once he drives a race winning car. He never drove a FW-18 against Hill, or MP4-22 against Alonso, or RB10 against Vettel.

Being on the wrong cars to get race wins does not mean he CAN'T. Jenson was given a race winning car first time in his 7th season . Hulkenberg is having his 5th season currently.
Given how equal he is with Perez and Di Resta when both cars finish you are implying when the car is less competitive he can't match his team mates?

Also Force Indias best result went to Perez who had to get the maneuver done on Hulk to get there.

Hulks never been on the podium. Team mates driving the same car has him have.

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Re: Career perspective: Hulkenberg, Grosjean and Perez

Post by GPG »

mds wrote:
GPG wrote: Something else which hasn't been discussed is the competition; It's not unthinkable that Ferrari would choose Valtteri Bottas over Hulkenberg, Grosjean or Perez when Kimi Raikkonen retires. Red Bull and McLaren have their own talent programs which have good prospects in the form of Verstappen/Sainz and Magnussen/Vandoorne.
Yeah I'm pretty sure I mentioned most of what you're written here :D
You're absolutely right, too soon in my judgement :D
PF1 Pick 10 Competition: 10th (2014); 8th (2015)

PF1 Pick 3 Competition: 1st (2014); 1st (2015)

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Re: Career perspective: Hulkenberg, Grosjean and Perez

Post by Need4Naiim »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Need4Naiim wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:The points gap between them can be explained and it was misleading. Have a look at the posts above.
When the car becomes more competitive, Hulkenberg's driving becomes a lot harder to be equalled by his teammates. This <alone> shows what wonders he can make once he drives a race winning car. He never drove a FW-18 against Hill, or MP4-22 against Alonso, or RB10 against Vettel.

Being on the wrong cars to get race wins does not mean he CAN'T. Jenson was given a race winning car first time in his 7th season . Hulkenberg is having his 5th season currently.
Not quite sure the stats back that up. Hulks best finish in 2014 was several 5th places. The only time Perez finished one of those races he finished ahead of Hulk.
This is like finishing one race 1st against your TM's 5th place, while retiring from others when your teammate consistently gets 3rd or 2nd places. One race can not erase full season. Even when Hulk collided while battling for the race win, he STILL finished that race 5th, while the "closely matched" teammate ended at the wall. Hulkenberg is consistent with his level and never drives terrible like Fernando. He has off-weekends here and there through 4 seasons, but that's all.

Long story short; retiring from races is not a life buoy if the points total is not enough at the season end.
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Re: Career perspective: Hulkenberg, Grosjean and Perez

Post by pubpokerplayer »

You ofcourse forget the points haul Perez could have got at Hungary last year if a certain team mate hadn't taken him out of the race too.

One race doesn't erase a full season. Perez also only retired from 3 races. One of which Hulk took him out of. There was also another race he didn't start through no fault of his own.

They finished 9th and 10th in the table. There was no battering like Hulk fans try to make out. Hulk finished 5th in Malaysia where Perez didn't get to race. A race where FI were obviously competitive.

If you take Germany as the start of the second half of the season. There are 10 races remaining. The results were 2 DNF's each both at the same races. One caused by Hulkenburg ruining both their races. The remaining 8 races where they both finished the result was 4-4. Points 25-25

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Re: Career perspective: Hulkenberg, Grosjean and Perez

Post by mikeyg123 »

Need4Naiim wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Need4Naiim wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:The points gap between them can be explained and it was misleading. Have a look at the posts above.
When the car becomes more competitive, Hulkenberg's driving becomes a lot harder to be equalled by his teammates. This <alone> shows what wonders he can make once he drives a race winning car. He never drove a FW-18 against Hill, or MP4-22 against Alonso, or RB10 against Vettel.

Being on the wrong cars to get race wins does not mean he CAN'T. Jenson was given a race winning car first time in his 7th season . Hulkenberg is having his 5th season currently.
Not quite sure the stats back that up. Hulks best finish in 2014 was several 5th places. The only time Perez finished one of those races he finished ahead of Hulk.
This is like finishing one race 1st against your TM's 5th place, while retiring from others when your teammate consistently gets 3rd or 2nd places. One race can not erase full season. Even when Hulk collided while battling for the race win, he STILL finished that race 5th, while the "closely matched" teammate ended at the wall. Hulkenberg is consistent with his level and never drives terrible like Fernando. He has off-weekends here and there through 4 seasons, but that's all.

Long story short; retiring from races is not a life buoy if the points total is not enough at the season end.
I agree which is why to get a more rounded picture you can look at races like Canada 2015 where the car was good enough to win. Hulk finished 5th and ran behind Perez the whole race.

Now I know you will say Perez crashed and that is true but it is also irrelevant. As I am just pointing out that you were wrong when you said Hulk does better with a better car. If that was the case he wouldn't need his team mate to crash in order to beat him. He wasn't quicker than Perez on that day or in Bahrain. The two races when FI had the most competitive car.

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Re: Career perspective: Hulkenberg, Grosjean and Perez

Post by Need4Naiim »

pubpokerplayer wrote:Hulks never been on the podium. Team mates driving the same car has him have.
Sergio completed same race AHEAD OF HIS TEAMMATE when he was less experienced the year before, in 2013, against WDC Button. What does that prove? It proves that he is really good at Bahrain, even against proven World Champions.

But Perez finished same season behind Jenson, then he went on to finish last year behind Hulkenberg AGAIN. And not surprisingly for me, Perez -with a McLaren experience under his belt- achieved a lesser points ratio against Hulkenberg than his 2013 points ratio against WDC Button.


One circuit that one likes <like Massa for Istanbul Park> does not change outcome result. Simple as that.
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Re: Career perspective: Hulkenberg, Grosjean and Perez

Post by FragNasty »

The Hulk's only weakness is that he over 6' tall and weighs in accordingly, a disadvantage for a team and their ability to strategically place ballasts. I think he will continue to be overlooked as teams seek out his smaller framed rivals for that reason alone.

I think Perez didn't actually get a real chance at McLaren as their equipment was very midfield when he was signed up. That said, the rumors are that he had attitude issues within the team that was ultimately the reason they didn't retain him. His attitude would have been "ok" if he could demonstrate consistency or luck, neither of which are noticeable to me.

My personal impression when I do notice Perez, Monte Carlo 2013 for example, is that he is trying too hard, he then compromises himself in a dubious situation we may characterize as unlucky or even reckless. With that in frame, un-mute the attitude issue and, to me at least, we see a WTF moment that I think makes him unattractive. When I think of him, I am reminded of the following quote given in an interview: "Maybe someone should punch him in the face."

Grosjean is no longer that young, rather he is rapidly approaching F1 retirement age and as yet has not much to show. His best and last chance to shine IMO, is at Lotus where he is. I think he will just fade away.

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Re: Career perspective: Hulkenberg, Grosjean and Perez

Post by pubpokerplayer »

Need4Naiim wrote:
pubpokerplayer wrote:Hulks never been on the podium. Team mates driving the same car has him have.
Sergio completed same race AHEAD OF HIS TEAMMATE when he was less experienced the year before, in 2013, against WDC Button. What does that prove? It proves that he is really good at Bahrain, even against proven World Champions.

But Perez finished same season behind Jenson, then he went on to finish last year behind Hulkenberg AGAIN. And not surprisingly for me, Perez -with a McLaren experience under his belt- achieved a lesser points ratio against Hulkenberg than his 2013 points ratio against WDC Button.


One circuit that one likes <like Massa for Istanbul Park> does not change outcome result. Simple as that.
You mention one circuit. I provided the entire second half of the season.

If you take Germany as the start of the second half of the season. There are 10 races remaining. The results were 2 DNF's each both at the same races. One caused by Hulkenburg ruining both their races. The remaining 8 races where they both finished the result was 4-4. Points 25-25

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Re: Career perspective: Hulkenberg, Grosjean and Perez

Post by dizlexik »

mikeyg123 wrote:
dizlexik wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote: The points gap between them can be explained and it was misleading. Have a look at the posts above.
Which post(s)? My main point is that RoGro was beaten by one of the highest rated driver at that time during his first 2 full seasons in F1. We know what Romain Gosjean is capable of in good car. That obviously doesn't make him great driver, but neither are Perez or Hulkenberg. I still didn't hear any explanation why are they better. Perez from time to time has some brilliant race, but Hulk never had such.
Oh sorry I was referring to explanations regarding the points gap between Hulk/Perez.

I agree there is no real evidence to suggest that Grosjean is better than Hulk/Perez or vice versa. Just something that comes down to opinion.
Fair enough :thumbup:
eeee

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