Nico has accepted 2nd already against Hamilton...

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Prema
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Re: Nico has accepted 2nd already against Hamilton...

Post by Prema »

pubpokerplayer wrote:
Prema wrote:Guess, that's how it often ends... can't have a valid and reasonable response, then make an accuse of abuse...
You asked for a post showing someone suggesting Merc were tying a hand behind Rosbergs back. I showed you one you made a different interpretation even though tou admitted it was done so in a provoking manner. End of the argument was you just being difficult for the sake of it.
No.No.No. and... No. I asked for you showing me someone arguing here that "Hamilton can only beat Rosberg because he is being favored by Mercedes."


And no. I did not admit anything. I said, "perhaps so in a bit provoking way, I would guess", and I even put it in ( ) as being a side remark. And so what, it does not make you any right that he/she made the above claim.

And no. I did not make a "different interpretation". I did not make any interpretation at all. I just pointed that you interpreted it to mean something else than what was said there, and that I did not see such there.


And so, I must be deliberately obtuse towards you, right ...

pubpokerplayer
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Re: Nico has accepted 2nd already against Hamilton...

Post by pubpokerplayer »

It's deliberately obtuse to twice ignore the facts posted supporting my opinion that Nico has probably been effected by losing out on the championship not by Spas incident

Prema
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Re: Nico has accepted 2nd already against Hamilton...

Post by Prema »

pubpokerplayer wrote:And Prema can't admit he has no problems when someone is making generalisations as long as the accusations are at Hamilton fans. When he realises this is how things came about he begins to act in an obtuse manner. Interesting technique.
Well, see... I am an individual. When some generalization affect me, then I may have an issue with it. Like here, I am not a Lewis fan, I am one of those "others". So I chose to respond since I felt it was concerning me.

On the other hand, since I am not a Lewis fan, it does not concern me if some generalizations are directed at Lewis fans. I am not affected. It does not concern me. You rather take care yourself about what affects/concerns you due to your identifications. Do not expect from other people to do it for you.

If that is what makes me to act in an "obtuse manner", then I can't help.

Prema
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Re: Nico has accepted 2nd already against Hamilton...

Post by Prema »

pubpokerplayer wrote:It's deliberately obtuse to twice ignore the facts posted supporting my opinion that Nico has probably been effected by losing out on the championship not by Spas incident
Ok, pub, let's agree that I am deliberately being obtuse to you, somehow or other.

Do you want me to apologize to you?

Prema
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Re: Nico has accepted 2nd already against Hamilton...

Post by Prema »

pubpokerplayer wrote: This still stands. My point being it is more likely Nicos form stems from losing the championship than the Spa incident and the evidence provided suggest I would be correct.
Yes, I kind of agree.
I think that losing the championship took a much bigger hit on Nico's self-confidence than the Spa-gate.

pubpokerplayer
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Re: Nico has accepted 2nd already against Hamilton...

Post by pubpokerplayer »

Prema wrote:
pubpokerplayer wrote:It's deliberately obtuse to twice ignore the facts posted supporting my opinion that Nico has probably been effected by losing out on the championship not by Spas incident
Ok, pub, let's agree that I am deliberately being obtuse to you, somehow or other.

Do you want me to apologize to you?
Let's agree that generalisations make poor arguments and move forward. :)

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Need4Naiim
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Re: Nico has accepted 2nd already against Hamilton...

Post by Need4Naiim »

Prema wrote:
pubpokerplayer wrote: This still stands. My point being it is more likely Nicos form stems from losing the championship than the Spa incident and the evidence provided suggest I would be correct.
Yes, I kind of agree.
I think that losing the championship took a much bigger hit on Nico's self-confidence than the Spa-gate.
Of course, that is true. Because, Rosberg still had a realistic chance at the Championship at that time. (actually, he was 29 points ahead of Lewis at that time. Now, Rosberg is 27 points behind)
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Covalent
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Re: Nico has accepted 2nd already against Hamilton...

Post by Covalent »

Qiwater wrote:
Covalent wrote:Nico seems to be in a lose-lose situation when it comes to Lewis fans, he'll be attacked regardless of his performace relative to Lewis. You guys should just enjoy the season as Hamilton will likely be a triple champion come the end of the season, instead of kicking his teammate when he's down. Nico is all you write about these days.
In honesty I havent noticed any Lewis fans as you call them, needing to skew the facts to justify why Lewis is performing at a higher level
to Nico.

I have heard the opposite in suggestions that some how the team must be favouring Lewis over Nico
I think I know who you're talking about but I ignore his posts these days and afaik it's just one person. And I didn't talk about skewing facts, things are what they are and it's for the whole world to see Nico is not measuring up to Lewis. Nothing wrong with pointing it out but it's starting to get tiresome when some people need to prove it time after time, page after page, thread after thread. Needless to say trolls should be ignored instead of argued with. Peace.

andrewinwork
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Re: Nico has accepted 2nd already against Hamilton...

Post by andrewinwork »

Is everyone forgetting Nico was nowhere until Monaco last year; lets not write him off just yet

sandman1347
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Re: Nico has accepted 2nd already against Hamilton...

Post by sandman1347 »

andrewinwork wrote:Is everyone forgetting Nico was nowhere until Monaco last year; lets not write him off just yet
Hang around long enough and you'll realize that when people write about Nico Rosberg in this forum, they're actually writing about Lewis Hamilton.

F1Oz
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Re: Nico has accepted 2nd already against Hamilton...

Post by F1Oz »

Good grief - how is this post not locked?

I don't think that Nico has accepted 2nd already - but it's clear from what we've seen so far in 2015 that he has been outperformed in every race by LH and has not looked like seriously challenging LH to date (unlike some races last year).

Over the last two years, LH has clearly been the better head to head driver - where NR has got most of his catch up points where LH was out of the race or seriously compromised.

Unless Merc make some changes to the car that somehow suit NR much more than LH - I don't think there will be a change this season.

It's rare that there are two very evenly matched drivers in the same car - and at the moment, LH is just out performing NR - not always by a lot but by enough to be clearly visible. Even the qualifying edge Nico showed last year seems to have been lost - to date.

I'm not suggesting NR doesn't deserve his spot though

kleefton
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Re: Nico has accepted 2nd already against Hamilton...

Post by kleefton »

andrewinwork wrote:Is everyone forgetting Nico was nowhere until Monaco last year; lets not write him off just yet
That is not true. In Bahrain he gave Hamilton a run for his money and looked faster overall. He just could not pass. In Spain he was catching Hamilton and almost passed him. In the earlier part of last year Nico looked very competitive against Lewis.

But I do not believe something changed after Spa.

I believe that from Silverstone on, Lewis found something that gave him an advantage in the races. Because from Silverstone on Nico hadn't had the same race pace advantage again and it became clear it was Lewis that was faster in the races.

I know I'm probably in the minority thinking that, but that is how I saw it.

Qiwater
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Re: Nico has accepted 2nd already against Hamilton...

Post by Qiwater »

kleefton wrote:
andrewinwork wrote:Is everyone forgetting Nico was nowhere until Monaco last year; lets not write him off just yet
That is not true. In Bahrain he gave Hamilton a run for his money and looked faster overall. He just could not pass. In Spain he was catching Hamilton and almost passed him. In the earlier part of last year Nico looked very competitive against Lewis.

But I do not believe something changed after Spa.

I believe that from Silverstone on, Lewis found something that gave him an advantage in the races. Because from Silverstone on Nico hadn't had the same race pace advantage again and it became clear it was Lewis that was faster in the races.

I know I'm probably in the minority thinking that, but that is how I saw it.
Perhaps you should watch Bahrain again , if Nico was faster than Lewis ... overall... How did Lewis pull a ten second lead on Nico prior to the safety car.

Bahrain was the (race for me anyway) that highlighted all of Nico's flaws in one race .

Lost his lead at first corner, Lewis then pulls out a ten second gap on Nico in the same car.
Safety car negates that advantage for Lewis .

Nico now on faster tyre , the race should be his , Lewis keeps him behind for ten laps because Nico is unable to make a pass stick.

Bahrain showed Nico at his weakest on every level. Poor start , slow mid race , poor finish .
If Ferrari were as they are this year Alonso would have been challenging Lewis not Nico .

Teach206
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Re: Nico has accepted 2nd already against Hamilton...

Post by Teach206 »

This thread has gone many directions.

The topic is Nico accepting the supporting role in the team, this year to date. Last year, both drivers were looking to cement their position 'to' the Team, and based on the facts, this is how I believe they did, and how they were viewed COMING INTO THE SEASON:

- Nico is the better qualifier, and can keep Mercedes on pole, a needed marketing tool
- Nico is Mr. Consistent, and will take the car home no less than 1 position below his start
- Nico can win, despite not being the best 'dueler' of the top 5 drivers, as he is calculated
- Nico should be able to challenge Lewis in 2015 again, especially with good qualifying positions.

- Lewis is the better racer, and can pull top results from anywhere he starts on the grid
- Once he has no mechanical issues, he will e on podium, but he may be a car breaker with aggression
- Lewis is solidly in the Top 2 of 'duelers', and once in striking distance, he is hard to fend off
- Lewis WILL challenge anyone for the Championship, regardless of pints standing at the time, or qualifying positions

So, that was before the season opened. As it stands today, here is what k believe has been shown publicly between to two drivers:

- Nico's pace is the se as it was last year
- Lewis has found something in Qualifying and Race starts that he did not have in 2014
- Nico seems to be driving to his limits in the races so far
- Lewis has said, and it also looks that way, that he has more in reserve should anyone have come closer in the race
- Nico's mindset (and disposition) is one of do what's best for the team
- Lewis on the other hand doesn't have to think that way as he is winning, which is the best result for the team in his mind

So, based on the above, Nico must take this break to figure out what he wants to be to re team - A Michael or a Rubens. At the moment, Lewis is Michael (without the clause in the contract) and Nico is Rubens.

Imagine, as Nico has revealed recently, there is a Clause in his contract (put in by his legal team) guaranteeing him equal status.

Counter this with Lewis saying the opposite.

The mindset of someone who has to rely on the team to make him equal (at least) to the other who just goes out there and makes the point by winning the intra-team battle more times than not is a very telling trait (of each).

That's my additional $0.02, a few pages later...

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Re: Nico has accepted 2nd already against Hamilton...

Post by Zoue »

Teach206 wrote: So, that was before the season opened. As it stands today, here is what k believe has been shown publicly between to two drivers:

- Nico's pace is the se as it was last year
- Lewis has found something in Qualifying and Race starts that he did not have in 2014
If I may just focus on the current state of play, what makes you think that the two positions above might not be reversed? I.E. Nico has dropped off and Lewis is running at the same (high) level? One could take either position based on the limited evidence we have at the moment.
Teach206 wrote:- Nico seems to be driving to his limits in the races so far
- Lewis has said, and it also looks that way, that he has more in reserve should anyone have come closer in the race
Again, if I may take these two together, I think there is another possible interpretation. Nico has generally finished fairly closely behind Lewis so far this year. While I agree that Lewis often looks like he has something in hand, that is due in part to the fact that as leader he may dictate the pace. I still think Lewis is better, but I don't think the difference between them can be categorised as simply as stated above.
Teach206 wrote:- Nico's mindset (and disposition) is one of do what's best for the team
- Lewis on the other hand doesn't have to think that way as he is winning, which is the best result for the team in his mind
I think that's a bit creative. I agree that Nico is a bit too focused on what's best for the team and he doesn't appear to have cottoned onto the fact that it's every man for himself. However, I think it's a huge assumption to be able to claim what Lewis is thinking about the team, or even if he considers the team at all. He's focused on winning first and foremost, but I haven't seen anything to suggest he's thinking of the team when he does so.
Teach206 wrote:So, based on the above, Nico must take this break to figure out what he wants to be to re team - A Michael or a Rubens. At the moment, Lewis is Michael (without the clause in the contract) and Nico is Rubens.
Has the existence of a clause in Michael's contract ever been proven?
Teach206 wrote:Imagine, as Nico has revealed recently, there is a Clause in his contract (put in by his legal team) guaranteeing him equal status.

Counter this with Lewis saying the opposite.

The mindset of someone who has to rely on the team to make him equal (at least) to the other who just goes out there and makes the point by winning the intra-team battle more times than not is a very telling trait (of each).
I don't think Lewis said the opposite, although I could be wrong. AFAIAA Lewis said there was no number one clause in his contract, which is not quite the same as not having an equal treatment clause? How do you know they don't have the same?

I think you are reading way too much into that one clause. Lewis came on as an ex WDC. I don't think there's anything particularly telling about the other driver wanting assurances that he won't end up in a supporting role to the main act. After all, it's hard to do your talking on track if you are given 2nd preference treatment with your equipment and strategy. Having that peace of mind seems eminently sensible to me, especially given all the rumours that fly around constantly in that regard.

I do agree that Lewis has let his driving do the talking, particularly this year. He's clearly the better of the two in my mind. But I don't agree that you can read anything into it other than simply that he's a better racing driver.

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F1Tyrant
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Re: Nico has accepted 2nd already against Hamilton...

Post by F1Tyrant »

Zoue wrote:However, I think it's a huge assumption to be able to claim what Lewis is thinking about the team, or even if he considers the team at all. He's focused on winning first and foremost, but I haven't seen anything to suggest he's thinking of the team when he does so.
Hamilton pays the team a lot of lip service on every podium I've ever watched. I suppose every driver does but I get the vibe that he appreciates his team as much as Alonso, Vettel or Button. There has been good vibes coming from Mercedes since 2014 and even the setback in Malaysia didn't bring out the pitchforks.

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Re: Nico has accepted 2nd already against Hamilton...

Post by Zoue »

F1Tyrant wrote:
Zoue wrote:However, I think it's a huge assumption to be able to claim what Lewis is thinking about the team, or even if he considers the team at all. He's focused on winning first and foremost, but I haven't seen anything to suggest he's thinking of the team when he does so.
Hamilton pays the team a lot of lip service on every podium I've ever watched. I suppose every driver does but I get the vibe that he appreciates his team as much as Alonso, Vettel or Button. There has been good vibes coming from Mercedes since 2014 and even the setback in Malaysia didn't bring out the pitchforks.
yes, I don't mean that he doesn't appreciate the team, but I don't see anything that backs up the claim that him winning is the best result for the team in his mind. You could argue that for every driver. For all Vettel's protestations, I very much doubt that when he's leading a GP he's thinking about doing it for the team. He might say thanks after he's crossed the line but that doesn't mean he's doing it for them. There is a difference

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Re: Nico has accepted 2nd already against Hamilton...

Post by lbennie »

F1Oz wrote:Good grief - how is this post not locked?

I don't think that Nico has accepted 2nd already - but it's clear from what we've seen so far in 2015 that he has been outperformed in every race by LH and has not looked like seriously challenging LH to date (unlike some races last year).

Over the last two years, LH has clearly been the better head to head driver - where NR has got most of his catch up points where LH was out of the race or seriously compromised.

Unless Merc make some changes to the car that somehow suit NR much more than LH - I don't think there will be a change this season.

It's rare that there are two very evenly matched drivers in the same car - and at the moment, LH is just out performing NR - not always by a lot but by enough to be clearly visible. Even the qualifying edge Nico showed last year seems to have been lost - to date.

I'm not suggesting NR doesn't deserve his spot though
This is what was happening with vettel/webber & just about everyone was screaming for RB to replace him from 2011 onwards.

why is this different?

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Re: Nico has accepted 2nd already against Hamilton...

Post by Covalent »

lbennie wrote:
F1Oz wrote:Good grief - how is this post not locked?

I don't think that Nico has accepted 2nd already - but it's clear from what we've seen so far in 2015 that he has been outperformed in every race by LH and has not looked like seriously challenging LH to date (unlike some races last year).

Over the last two years, LH has clearly been the better head to head driver - where NR has got most of his catch up points where LH was out of the race or seriously compromised.

Unless Merc make some changes to the car that somehow suit NR much more than LH - I don't think there will be a change this season.

It's rare that there are two very evenly matched drivers in the same car - and at the moment, LH is just out performing NR - not always by a lot but by enough to be clearly visible. Even the qualifying edge Nico showed last year seems to have been lost - to date.

I'm not suggesting NR doesn't deserve his spot though
This is what was happening with vettel/webber & just about everyone was screaming for RB to replace him from 2011 onwards.

why is this different?
Not once in any of Vettel's WDC-winning years was Webber the runner-up, Nico's been much closer to Hamilton relatively speaking.

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Re: Nico has accepted 2nd already against Hamilton...

Post by F1Tyrant »

Covalent wrote:Not once in any of Vettel's WDC-winning years was Webber the runner-up, Nico's been much closer to Hamilton relatively speaking.
The Red Bull was the best car 2010-2013 but only in 2011 and late-2013 was it marginally dominant. The W05 was utterly dominant like the MP4/4 before it. You don't have to drive a dominant car well to finish 2nd whereas you have to be pretty consistently good to drive a superior car to it's potential. It's the difference between Barrichello's performances in the superior Ferrari in 2000, 2001 and 2003 and performance in a dominant car in 2002 and 2004. Obviously, Schumacher was better than Barrichello (and had beneficial team orders) by more than Hamilton is currently better than Rosberg which is why there was less of a battle between the Ferraris.

Another example is when Prost won in 1989 despite being out-driven by Senna 7-2 when he lost in 1988 matching Senna 7-7. Rosberg almost won the title despite being out-driven comprehensively 10-5 by Hamilton because of the dominance of the W05.

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Re: Nico has accepted 2nd already against Hamilton...

Post by Covalent »

F1Tyrant wrote:
Covalent wrote:Not once in any of Vettel's WDC-winning years was Webber the runner-up, Nico's been much closer to Hamilton relatively speaking.
The Red Bull was the best car 2010-2013 but only in 2011 and late-2013 was it marginally dominant. The W05 was utterly dominant like the MP4/4 before it. You don't have to drive a dominant car well to finish 2nd whereas you have to be pretty consistently good to drive a superior car to it's potential. It's the difference between Barrichello's performances in the superior Ferrari in 2000, 2001 and 2003 and performance in a dominant car in 2002 and 2004. Obviously, Schumacher was better than Barrichello (and had beneficial team orders) by more than Hamilton is currently better than Rosberg which is why there was less of a battle between the Ferraris.

Another example is when Prost won in 1989 despite being out-driven by Senna 7-2 when he lost in 1988 matching Senna 7-7. Rosberg almost won the title despite being out-driven comprehensively 10-5 by Hamilton because of the dominance of the W05.
Fair enough but I still think the gap between Vettel and Webber was larger than what is has been between Hamilton and Rosberg. Also in 2013 the Mercedes was not the best car yet Rosberg finished only 18 points behind despite more retirements. I was replying to a poster saying Nico didn't deserve his spot which I feel was unjust.

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Re: Nico has accepted 2nd already against Hamilton...

Post by Need4Naiim »

Covalent wrote:Not once in any of Vettel's WDC-winning years was Webber the runner-up, Nico's been much closer to Hamilton relatively speaking.
This stat of Vettel is also downplayed unfortunately.

17th-4th-3rd-3rd-6th-3rd-3rd


It is weird Sebastian got 4 straight championships with the same car that other drivers (Bourdais-Webber-Ricciardo) got the above results meanwhile.

Rosberg is a really good race driver but did not really shone against Webber tbh. He could at least could have gotten a pole when the field is somewhat became closer on a wet qualifying.

But he couldn't.
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Re: Nico has accepted 2nd already against Hamilton...

Post by F1Tyrant »

Covalent wrote:Fair enough but I still think the gap between Vettel and Webber was larger than what is has been between Hamilton and Rosberg.
Yes, I agree. They were quite close in 2010 but since the switch to Pirelli, the gap was larger. If the gap between HAM/ROS was 0.2 secs/lap and MSC/BAR was 0.4 sec/lap: I'd put Vettel and Webber at about 0.35 sec/lap post-2010.
Covalent wrote:Also in 2013 the Mercedes was not the best car yet Rosberg finished only 18 points behind despite more retirements. I was replying to a poster saying Nico didn't deserve his spot which I feel was unjust.
I've had a re-think about 2013 and I'm pretty sure it's his worst year in Formula 1 performance wise.

Hamilton was beaten 9-7 by Rosberg, which is the same margin Button beat him by in 2011. Reliability ensured that Lewis had a points lead, however, it would have bee 8-8 if Hamilton's tyre hadn't blown at Silverstone so both sides got some luck. However, Lewis wasn't crashing into Massa. There was no self-inflicted damage, he was just consistently slower than Rosberg in late-2013.

The reasons I give for this slump in performance is Hamilton's failure to fully adapt to the Mercedes brakes. This is no excuse as Lewis is famed for his adaptability yet he got worse through 2013 rather than improving. I don't think the cracked chassis had a huge impact just a small drop-off for one or two races. Perhaps Hamilton's motivation abandoned him, which is poor given Alonso never gave up.

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Re: Nico has accepted 2nd already against Hamilton...

Post by Covalent »

F1Tyrant wrote:
Covalent wrote:Fair enough but I still think the gap between Vettel and Webber was larger than what is has been between Hamilton and Rosberg.
Yes, I agree. They were quite close in 2010 but since the switch to Pirelli, the gap was larger. If the gap between HAM/ROS was 0.2 secs/lap and MSC/BAR was 0.4 sec/lap: I'd put Vettel and Webber at about 0.35 sec/lap post-2010.
Covalent wrote:Also in 2013 the Mercedes was not the best car yet Rosberg finished only 18 points behind despite more retirements. I was replying to a poster saying Nico didn't deserve his spot which I feel was unjust.
I've had a re-think about 2013 and I'm pretty sure it's his worst year in Formula 1 performance wise.

Hamilton was beaten 9-7 by Rosberg, which is the same margin Button beat him by in 2011. Reliability ensured that Lewis had a points lead, however, it would have bee 8-8 if Hamilton's tyre hadn't blown at Silverstone so both sides got some luck. However, Lewis wasn't crashing into Massa. There was no self-inflicted damage, he was just consistently slower than Rosberg in late-2013.

The reasons I give for this slump in performance is Hamilton's failure to fully adapt to the Mercedes brakes. This is no excuse as Lewis is famed for his adaptability yet he got worse through 2013 rather than improving. I don't think the cracked chassis had a huge impact just a small drop-off for one or two races. Perhaps Hamilton's motivation abandoned him, which is poor given Alonso never gave up.
Yes they were fairly even in 2013, and the brake theory might be correct. Did Lewis have a bad year, Nico a good one or the combination of both? Shame Nico doesn't seem to be able to quite match up to Lewis anymore, although this year Ferrari are in the mix so there's still some racing at the front end regardless.

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Re: Nico has accepted 2nd already against Hamilton...

Post by stevey »

Didn't they find a crack in Hamiltons Chassis in the second part of the season after a few sub par performances and then when that was fixed he was back up to speed again>?

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Re: Nico has accepted 2nd already against Hamilton...

Post by Covalent »

stevey wrote:Didn't they find a crack in Hamiltons Chassis in the second part of the season after a few sub par performances and then when that was fixed he was back up to speed again>?
Yes F1Tyrant touched on that. Not saying it didn't impact him or that he made it up in his mind, but I remembered our co-commentators Mika Salo and Ossi Oikarinen (data and race engineer in F1 since 1997 and chief test engineer for Ferrari 2009-2012) talking about how sometimes the drivers would complain about something being wrong in the car and the engineers would just pretend to fix something even though they couldn't find any fault, and the next lap the driver would be happy and drive faster :lol:

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Re: Nico has accepted 2nd already against Hamilton...

Post by Qiwater »

F1Tyrant wrote:
Covalent wrote:Fair enough but I still think the gap between Vettel and Webber was larger than what is has been between Hamilton and Rosberg.
Yes, I agree. They were quite close in 2010 but since the switch to Pirelli, the gap was larger. If the gap between HAM/ROS was 0.2 secs/lap and MSC/BAR was 0.4 sec/lap: I'd put Vettel and Webber at about 0.35 sec/lap post-2010.
Covalent wrote:Also in 2013 the Mercedes was not the best car yet Rosberg finished only 18 points behind despite more retirements. I was replying to a poster saying Nico didn't deserve his spot which I feel was unjust.
I've had a re-think about 2013 and I'm pretty sure it's his worst year in Formula 1 performance wise.

Hamilton was beaten 9-7 by Rosberg, which is the same margin Button beat him by in 2011. Reliability ensured that Lewis had a points lead, however, it would have bee 8-8 if Hamilton's tyre hadn't blown at Silverstone so both sides got some luck. However, Lewis wasn't crashing into Massa. There was no self-inflicted damage, he was just consistently slower than Rosberg in late-2013.

The reasons I give for this slump in performance is Hamilton's failure to fully adapt to the Mercedes brakes. This is no excuse as Lewis is famed for his adaptability yet he got worse through 2013 rather than improving. I don't think the cracked chassis had a huge impact just a small drop-off for one or two races. Perhaps Hamilton's motivation abandoned him, which is poor given Alonso never gave up.
Wasn't there also a change mid season in the tyres ? . I vaguely recollect some shenanigans with RedBull at the helm. What I can't remember was what affect that had on the Mercs .
I also remember Lewis complaining about the amount of unnecessary buttons on his steering wheel , which I believe they changed for him the following season.

Lewis had a lot of adjusting to do in a new team, which had been predicted prior to him joining.

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Re: Nico has accepted 2nd already against Hamilton...

Post by F1Tyrant »

Covalent wrote:Yes they were fairly even in 2013, and the brake theory might be correct. Did Lewis have a bad year, Nico a good one or the combination of both?
Both. Nico had a better year in 2013 than 2014 or 2015 and Lewis had the worst year of his career pace wise.
stevey wrote:Didn't they find a crack in Hamiltons Chassis in the second part of the season after a few sub par performances and then when that was fixed he was back up to speed again>?
Yes, but it was confounded by the fact that the race where he had a new chassis was the USA Grand Prix which given his record of 7 victories out of 11 races in the North American continent. Hamilton would have expected to beat Nico there. After winning the Hungarian GP, the only races Lewis beat Nico in the 2nd half of 2013 were Belgium, Korea (Rosberg front wing failure) and USA.
Covalent wrote:...talking about how sometimes the drivers would complain about something being wrong in the car and the engineers would just pretend to fix something even though they couldn't find any fault, and the next lap the driver would be happy and drive faster :lol:
Placebo effect. I wonder how commonly that occurs. I imagine Jenson's and Kimi's engineers have tried that a fair few times!
Qiwater wrote:Wasn't there also a change mid season in the tyres ? . I vaguely recollect some shenanigans with RedBull at the helm. What I can't remember was what affect that had on the Mercs .
Tyre compound was revised to a harder one to prevent de-lamination. That move should have helped Hamilton but it may have meant another major re-adjustment in Hamilton's brakes which could be why he performed even worse.
Qiwater wrote:Lewis had a lot of adjusting to do in a new team, which had been predicted prior to him joining.
Alonso and Vettel didn't take very long to adjust. It was probably bad form + unfamiliar team.

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Re: Nico has accepted 2nd already against Hamilton...

Post by Qiwater »

F1Tyrant wrote:
Covalent wrote:Yes they were fairly even in 2013, and the brake theory might be correct. Did Lewis have a bad year, Nico a good one or the combination of both?
Both. Nico had a better year in 2013 than 2014 or 2015 and Lewis had the worst year of his career pace wise.
stevey wrote:Didn't they find a crack in Hamiltons Chassis in the second part of the season after a few sub par performances and then when that was fixed he was back up to speed again>?
Yes, but it was confounded by the fact that the race where he had a new chassis was the USA Grand Prix which given his record of 7 victories out of 11 races in the North American continent. Hamilton would have expected to beat Nico there. After winning the Hungarian GP, the only races Lewis beat Nico in the 2nd half of 2013 were Belgium, Korea (Rosberg front wing failure) and USA.
Covalent wrote:...talking about how sometimes the drivers would complain about something being wrong in the car and the engineers would just pretend to fix something even though they couldn't find any fault, and the next lap the driver would be happy and drive faster :lol:
Placebo effect. I wonder how commonly that occurs. I imagine Jenson's and Kimi's engineers have tried that a fair few times!
Qiwater wrote:Wasn't there also a change mid season in the tyres ? . I vaguely recollect some shenanigans with RedBull at the helm. What I can't remember was what affect that had on the Mercs .
Tyre compound was revised to a harder one to prevent de-lamination. That move should have helped Hamilton but it may have meant another major re-adjustment in Hamilton's brakes which could be why he performed even worse.
Qiwater wrote:Lewis had a lot of adjusting to do in a new team, which had been predicted prior to him joining.
Alonso and Vettel didn't take very long to adjust. It was probably bad form + unfamiliar team.
Not sure how well Vettel has adjusted yet . He generally goes missing in action for a third of the season
Ferrari are usually one of the most reliable so if Vettel sticks to past form ....I expect Kimi to capitalise as in Bahrain.

Alonso is familiar with the way McLaren goes about business still not sure how well he will do against Jenson and even though I would be surprised if Jenson did better like Lewis and Merc I would expect business as usual next season.

I couldn't recall what impact the tyres had but I do remember the Mercedes going backwards at the start of each race.
The 2013 Mercs were fast but p.ss poor during the race.

I remember having resigned myself to a dreadful 2013 season for Lewis and it was actually
much better than expected from all concerned.

Was 2013 his weakest year I think so. I am not one who found 2011 weak for Lewis just unfortunate with
Drivers renowned for collisions and over zealous stewards ( who all seem to have dissipated) I might add.

lamo

Re: Nico has accepted 2nd already against Hamilton...

Post by lamo »

I've never understood the Spa thing, IMO Nico was better post Spa and was closer to winning races than pre-Spa. He just didn't have the luck post Spa (i.e. Hamilton breaking down or making an error). Austin he only lost due to making an error with his ERS. Japan he lost because Lewis was a rain Specialist. Monza he lost due to two errors. Russia, another error into turn 1... hmm I see a pattern. Errors lost him the title, I think the speed was there to win a few more races by just getting track position in qualifying even though he was slower in the race.

His qualifying post Spa was fantastic. I think if you want to run with the "Nico is now number 2" you have to make 2015 your starting point, not Spa. Nico is clearly further back this year 4-0, 4-0 when both finshed.

Although even that is a stretch because it was 4-0, 4-1 after 5 races when both finished in 2014. Hamilton DNF if Spain and then him starting P20 in the race after that and it is 2014 all over again and Nico the new championship leader.

lamo

Re: Nico has accepted 2nd already against Hamilton...

Post by lamo »

F1Tyrant wrote:
Covalent wrote:Not once in any of Vettel's WDC-winning years was Webber the runner-up, Nico's been much closer to Hamilton relatively speaking.
The Red Bull was the best car 2010-2013 but only in 2011 and late-2013 was it marginally dominant. The W05 was utterly dominant like the MP4/4 before it. You don't have to drive a dominant car well to finish 2nd whereas you have to be pretty consistently good to drive a superior car to it's potential. It's the difference between Barrichello's performances in the superior Ferrari in 2000, 2001 and 2003 and performance in a dominant car in 2002 and 2004. Obviously, Schumacher was better than Barrichello (and had beneficial team orders) by more than Hamilton is currently better than Rosberg which is why there was less of a battle between the Ferraris.

Another example is when Prost won in 1989 despite being out-driven by Senna 7-2 when he lost in 1988 matching Senna 7-7. Rosberg almost won the title despite being out-driven comprehensively 10-5 by Hamilton because of the dominance of the W05.
Senna actually beat Prost 9-1, ahead when both finished in 1989. The 1 being when Senna lost his nose cone on lap 1 and had a 1 minute pit stop. Wins was 6-4 in Sennas favour. Travesty that Senna lost that title. Prost was better in 1 or 2 races out of 16.

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Re: Nico has accepted 2nd already against Hamilton...

Post by Zoue »

lamo wrote:I've never understood the Spa thing, IMO Nico was better post Spa and was closer to winning races than pre-Spa. He just didn't have the luck post Spa (i.e. Hamilton breaking down or making an error). Austin he only lost due to making an error with his ERS. Japan he lost because Lewis was a rain Specialist. Monza he lost due to two errors. Russia, another error into turn 1... hmm I see a pattern. Errors lost him the title, I think the speed was there to win a few more races by just getting track position in qualifying even though he was slower in the race.

His qualifying post Spa was fantastic. I think if you want to run with the "Nico is now number 2" you have to make 2015 your starting point, not Spa. Nico is clearly further back this year 4-0, 4-0 when both finshed.

Although even that is a stretch because it was 4-0, 4-1 after 5 races when both finished in 2014. Hamilton DNF if Spain and then him starting P20 in the race after that and it is 2014 all over again and Nico the new championship leader.
If you look at his qualifying in Bahrain this year and compare it to last (it's the only dry qualifying to be able to compare) you will see that his time was almost exactly the same, while this year's cars are considerably quicker. This indicates that in Bahrain at least he was quite slow on Saturday.

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Re: Nico has accepted 2nd already against Hamilton...

Post by F1Tyrant »

lamo wrote:Although even that is a stretch because it was 4-0, 4-1 after 5 races when both finished in 2014. Hamilton DNF if Spain and then him starting P20 in the race after that and it is 2014 all over again and Nico the new championship leader.
Difference is that Nico was breathing down Lewis' neck in Bahrain and Spain in 2014. I've said this previously but I think Nico will win at Monaco because it's his best track.

Last year, when Nico wrestled control of the qualifying battle after Monaco, it bugged Lewis when he started P2. After Spa, he just stopped caring and backed himself to pass on track. I think Lewis would be happy to be P2 behind Nico at any track apart from Monaco and Singapore.

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Re: Nico has accepted 2nd already against Hamilton...

Post by F1Tyrant »

lamo wrote:Senna actually beat Prost 9-1, ahead when both finished in 1989. The 1 being when Senna lost his nose cone on lap 1 and had a 1 minute pit stop. Wins was 6-4 in Sennas favour. Travesty that Senna lost that title. Prost was better in 1 or 2 races out of 16.
Odd. I've got 7-2:

Senna: San Marino, Monaco, Mexico, Germany, Hungary, Belgium, Spain
Prost: Brazil, Portugal (Senna crashed with Mansell)
Excluded/No winner: USA (AS, Electronics), Canada (AP, Suspension), France (AS, Differential), Great Britain (AS, Gearbox), Italy (AS, Engine), Japan (AS, DSQ), Australia.

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Re: Nico has accepted 2nd already against Hamilton...

Post by Fiki »

lamo wrote:Senna actually beat Prost 9-1, ahead when both finished in 1989. The 1 being when Senna lost his nose cone on lap 1 and had a 1 minute pit stop. Wins was 6-4 in Sennas favour. Travesty that Senna lost that title. Prost was better in 1 or 2 races out of 16.
Prost was better in quite a few of the other races, and since there is no requirement to only count those races in which your team-mate finishes, I fail to see the travesty. :?
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Re: Nico has accepted 2nd already against Hamilton...

Post by sandman1347 »

Fiki wrote:
lamo wrote:Senna actually beat Prost 9-1, ahead when both finished in 1989. The 1 being when Senna lost his nose cone on lap 1 and had a 1 minute pit stop. Wins was 6-4 in Sennas favour. Travesty that Senna lost that title. Prost was better in 1 or 2 races out of 16.
Prost was better in quite a few of the other races, and since there is no requirement to only count those races in which your team-mate finishes, I fail to see the travesty. :?
The travesty is that, because of reliability alone, people perceive the Prost/Senna matchup differently than it actually was. Don't get me wrong; in 88' the battle was close. Prost actually got out to a quick start (I think he won 3 of the first 4 that year) and after Senna's crash at Monaco, many people believed that he would not be able to win the championship that season. Senna really had to dig deep to come back and win that title.

By 1989 however, Senna had comprehensively gotten the better of the matchup. As lamo said, he was better on almost every Saturday and Sunday that year. Reliability won Prost the title. His fans try to make the totally unprovable argument that Senna was somehow responsible for his lack of reliability but that's a straw man argument IMO. There is no evidence of that at all. Your argument that "Prost was better in quite a few other races" is false. Senna's car failed from the lead about 5 times that year. Prost simply cashed in on Senna's bad luck.

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Re: Nico has accepted 2nd already against Hamilton...

Post by Exediron »

sandman1347 wrote:Your argument that "Prost was better in quite a few other races" is false. Senna's car failed from the lead about 5 times that year. Prost simply cashed in on Senna's bad luck.
I made a post on this topic a while ago, examining the races where Senna had a mechanical problem in 1989. Although he was certainly on for the win in some of them, in others the only way you could say he was certain to win would be just taking it on faith that he would always win if nothing went wrong.
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Re: Nico has accepted 2nd already against Hamilton...

Post by Need4Naiim »

Fiki wrote:
lamo wrote:Senna actually beat Prost 9-1, ahead when both finished in 1989. The 1 being when Senna lost his nose cone on lap 1 and had a 1 minute pit stop. Wins was 6-4 in Sennas favour. Travesty that Senna lost that title. Prost was better in 1 or 2 races out of 16.
Prost was better in quite a few of the other races, and since there is no requirement to only count those races in which your team-mate finishes, I fail to see the travesty. :?
If FIA had only counted those races in which ones team-mate finishes, then Prost and Senna would have driven accordingly.

Since the drivers knew what was being counted, there is %0 travesty. Maybe it is time to get rid some misleading requirements.
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Re: Nico has accepted 2nd already against Hamilton...

Post by lamo »

Exediron wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:Your argument that "Prost was better in quite a few other races" is false. Senna's car failed from the lead about 5 times that year. Prost simply cashed in on Senna's bad luck.
I made a post on this topic a while ago, examining the races where Senna had a mechanical problem in 1989. Although he was certainly on for the win in some of them, in others the only way you could say he was certain to win would be just taking it on faith that he would always win if nothing went wrong.
Yes that is what happened in 1989. Senna finished 8 races, 6 wins, 1 second and Brazilian race where he lost his nose on lap 1.

Prost won 4 races in 89, Senna finished 1 of those. Brazil when he lost his nose on lap one and went a lap down.
Senna won 6 races in 89. Prost finished 2nd,2nd, 5th, 2nd, 2nd,2nd.

Prost was maybe on par to win in Germany before having an issue, he was 2 seconds ahead of Senna with 15 odd laps to go. Prost was on Senna's level at Japan. 2/16.

Prosts title win in 1989 will be like Rosberg winning it this year, on the current form of the year with Lewis having 5 more DNFs. With Nico beating him on track once all year, lets say in Monaco. Then it will be 1-1 in WDCs are in the distance future people can pretend Lewis Vs Nico was even as it ended 1-1 in WDCs :lol: Full circle.

lamo

Re: Nico has accepted 2nd already against Hamilton...

Post by lamo »

Need4Naiim wrote:
Fiki wrote:
lamo wrote:Senna actually beat Prost 9-1, ahead when both finished in 1989. The 1 being when Senna lost his nose cone on lap 1 and had a 1 minute pit stop. Wins was 6-4 in Sennas favour. Travesty that Senna lost that title. Prost was better in 1 or 2 races out of 16.
Prost was better in quite a few of the other races, and since there is no requirement to only count those races in which your team-mate finishes, I fail to see the travesty. :?
If FIA had only counted those races in which ones team-mate finishes, then Prost and Senna would have driven accordingly.

Since the drivers knew what was being counted, there is %0 travesty. Maybe it is time to get rid some misleading requirements.
You make a very good point in that drivers drive to what is being counted before the "1988 Prost scored more points should have been champion myth" comes up.

I like to look deeper than the results, Webber beating Vettel in 2010 would have been entirely down to reliability. Webber was bulletproof while Seb had issues in 4 races. Just like 1989. However Seb had more racers to close the gap in and eventually managed it in race 20 having trailed his team mate for half a season.

Similarly, I didn't think Webber was now a better driver than Vettel after the first half of 2012 because he led him in the championship.

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