Van der Garde vs Sauber

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VDV23
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Re: Van der Garde vs Sauber

Post by VDV23 »

egnat69 wrote:I should be sleeping, but this story keeps me awake even more than any prime time movie did in the last ten years... So it looks like Sauber might have purposefully delayed the issuing of the Superlicence? That would have been the last in a row of bad decisions...
Looks like? It's been quite obvious for quite some time that they have done it deliberately. It's their job as a team to apply for SL, VDG can't do it himself.

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Re: Van der Garde vs Sauber

Post by egnat69 »

VDV23 wrote:
egnat69 wrote:I should be sleeping, but this story keeps me awake even more than any prime time movie did in the last ten years... So it looks like Sauber might have purposefully delayed the issuing of the Superlicence? That would have been the last in a row of bad decisions...
Looks like? It's been quite obvious for quite some time that they have done it deliberately. It's their job as a team to apply for SL, VDG can't do it himself.
Can't see that ending well for Monisha then...
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Re: Van der Garde vs Sauber

Post by thegamer23 »

Image

Epic walk with Ericsson's suit after the battle on the Sauber garage.

Monisha Kaltenborn may be arrested today, situation is crazy as hell 8O

"Yesterday Monisha wrote to FIA asking if it was possible to get a superlicence for VDG - while blocking possibility at the same time"

Daniel Gallagher
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Re: Van der Garde vs Sauber

Post by Daniel Gallagher »

Another view…
Looking at the situation at Sauber right now, one wonders whether the motivation behind all this courtroom activity is simply Dutch stubbornness and an understandable sense of having been wronged, or whether there are bigger picture things going on. Things are not always as they seem in F1, so one must ask why this mess is happening when there is little or no chance of any serious compensation.

How can a court assess image damage to a pay-driver? A judge would say: what was Mr Van der Garde’s reputation and prospects before the incident? Amiable pay-driver, no real prospects of a Ferrari drive or World Championship potential. The Dutch side’s lawyer would no doubt argue that Giedo is the next Fernando Alonso… Sauber lawyers on the other hand might point out some character flaws (this is nasty stuff going on) and claim, for example, that GvdG may have denied having a contract right through last summer, so he might be willing to say what was required rather than the truth.

The judge might then ask what Giedo’s reputation is after the incident: and the reply would come back, not quite so amiable pay-driver.

So a judge might conclude that the only thing that GvdG has lost is the reputation for being amiable. If there were clauses in the contract that involved money changing hands then Sauber would be required to pay those back, but I wonder whether punitive damages could be applied? I doubt it.

And is the image damage worth a financial settlement? How do you quantify amiability in dollars? You cannot. In any case, one cannot blame wholly Sauber for this, because the responsibility is shared by all involved in this legal jamboree…

So we must perhaps consider that there is more to this than meets the eye. There often is in F1 stories. Could this, for example, be an attempt to bring the Swiss team to its knees as part of some kind of hostile takeover bid? Giedo’s father in law has been quietly sniffing around F1 for a while now, looking at ways to get into team ownership (so they say) and making a big mess in public might help such a scheme. Alas, a family-owned team is probably now the only way Giedo could get a drive in F1, so that might be one possible strategy. The Dutch F1 landscape is about to undergo a Verstappen Moment and so Giedo & Co must act quickly before they are swept away by a flood of Max Verstappen’s stories.

Sauber is a nice asset but has serious cash problems because of the mess F1 is in. F1 cannot go on destroying itself for much longer and so a smart investor might say that now is the good time to acquire a team because once a new structure comes along, teams will again have a value. Look at Williams. The US investor Brad Hollinger is buying in there because he sees F1 being close to a new growth spurt. Changes are required but in a couple of years the landscape may be very different to today.

Sauber has always been one of the most honorable and honest teams and I fervently believe that the current mess was caused only by desperation ( just as Lotus’s Carmen Jorda moment can hardly be put down to anything else) and the desire to keep the team alive and the people employed. That does not excuse it, but it helps to explain it.

Other more creative brains might argue that in recent years clever young team bosses have been disappearing on a regular basis, Adam Parr and Marco Mattiacci spring to mind. Perhaps the European Commission problems are seen by some as being the fault of Monisha and taking out the troublesome is a good tactic “pour encourager les autres”, as Voltaire might say.

Anyway, what we need right now is engine noise to drown out all of this crap. Gentlemen, start your engines!

If you can…
Source: https://joesaward.wordpress.com/2015/03 ... ther-view/

It seems Joe Saward is so knowledgeable of the subject of business backstage details that he somehow is feeling for Sauber's demise. He sounds ridiculous with these observations of the whole affair. He seems to think that because it is so 'hard' to keep a team alive that VDG and co. doesn't have the right to destroy it even if being right.

I don't get this, really, and I hope that Sauber goes to hell really. Giant corporations shouldn't be worth more than those who run the show, the drivers. Without them, F1 is nothing.
Last edited by Daniel Gallagher on Fri Mar 13, 2015 12:46 am, edited 1 time in total.

Colo134
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Re: Van der Garde vs Sauber

Post by Colo134 »

I think that VDG has been wronged by Sauber, but walking around in overalls like that seems a bit overkill

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Re: Van der Garde vs Sauber

Post by P-F1 Mod »

thegamer23 wrote:Image

Epic walk with Ericsson's suit after the battle on the Sauber garage.

Monisha Kaltenborn may be arrested today, situation is crazy as hell 8O

"Yesterday Monisha wrote to FIA asking if it was possible to get a superlicence for VDG - while blocking possibility at the same time"
Excuse me posting as a mod but doesn't the race suit have medical info on it - blood type etc - that means you can't drive with someone else's suit? That could be a sticking point if they don't have needle and thread there.

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Re: Van der Garde vs Sauber

Post by egnat69 »

Case rested until after FP1 ... Time to get some sleep i guess...
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Re: Van der Garde vs Sauber

Post by Herb »

P-F1 Mod wrote:
thegamer23 wrote:Image

Epic walk with Ericsson's suit after the battle on the Sauber garage.

Monisha Kaltenborn may be arrested today, situation is crazy as hell 8O

"Yesterday Monisha wrote to FIA asking if it was possible to get a superlicence for VDG - while blocking possibility at the same time"
Excuse me posting as a mod but doesn't the race suit have medical info on it - blood type etc - that means you can't drive with someone else's suit? That could be a sticking point if they don't have needle and thread there.
Didn't he just wear it for a seat fitting?

I'm surprised he didn't take his own with him to Oz tbh. He midday have some!

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Re: Van der Garde vs Sauber

Post by RaggedMan »

P-F1 Mod wrote:
thegamer23 wrote:Image

Epic walk with Ericsson's suit after the battle on the Sauber garage.

Monisha Kaltenborn may be arrested today, situation is crazy as hell 8O

"Yesterday Monisha wrote to FIA asking if it was possible to get a superlicence for VDG - while blocking possibility at the same time"
Excuse me posting as a mod but doesn't the race suit have medical info on it - blood type etc - that means you can't drive with someone else's suit? That could be a sticking point if they don't have needle and thread there.
Even if they had a needle and thread and a tag with Geidos info there are regs about holes, even stitching holes, in th material of the firesuits.
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Re: Van der Garde vs Sauber

Post by P-F1 Mod »

RaggedMan wrote:
P-F1 Mod wrote:
thegamer23 wrote:Image

Epic walk with Ericsson's suit after the battle on the Sauber garage.

Monisha Kaltenborn may be arrested today, situation is crazy as hell 8O

"Yesterday Monisha wrote to FIA asking if it was possible to get a superlicence for VDG - while blocking possibility at the same time"
Excuse me posting as a mod but doesn't the race suit have medical info on it - blood type etc - that means you can't drive with someone else's suit? That could be a sticking point if they don't have needle and thread there.
Even if they had a needle and thread and a tag with Geidos info there are regs about holes, even stitching holes, in th material of the firesuits.
So unless Herb's right about him bringing his own that could render this whole case moot for the weekend. Just to keep things nice and simple...!

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Laura23
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Re: Van der Garde vs Sauber

Post by Laura23 »

He just wore the suit for the seat fitting. I don't think Sauber were ever going to let him drive the car.
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Re: Van der Garde vs Sauber

Post by Tufty »

Laura23 wrote:He just wore the suit for the seat fitting. I don't think Sauber were ever going to let him drive the car.
I'm not sure their intentions have much bearing against a court order, but if they had it their way I agree he'd never turn a wheel.
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Laura23
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Re: Van der Garde vs Sauber

Post by Laura23 »

Tufty wrote:
Laura23 wrote:He just wore the suit for the seat fitting. I don't think Sauber were ever going to let him drive the car.
I'm not sure their intentions have much bearing against a court order, but if they had it their way I agree he'd never turn a wheel.
The court order ordered them to prepare fro VDG to drive. They didn't do that the second they failed to tell the CRB that VDg's contract should never have been terminated. All the while Kaltenborn tried to pull a fast one by sending a halfarsed letter to the FIA about VDg's Superlicence knowing it wouldn't go anywhere.
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VDV23
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Re: Van der Garde vs Sauber

Post by VDV23 »

Laura23 wrote:
Tufty wrote:
Laura23 wrote:He just wore the suit for the seat fitting. I don't think Sauber were ever going to let him drive the car.
I'm not sure their intentions have much bearing against a court order, but if they had it their way I agree he'd never turn a wheel.
The court order ordered them to prepare fro VDG to drive. They didn't do that the second they failed to tell the CRB that VDg's contract should never have been terminated. All the while Kaltenborn tried to pull a fast one by sending a halfarsed letter to the FIA about VDg's Superlicence knowing it wouldn't go anywhere.
It's shameful, really.

Is Peter Sauber the only one who has the power to fire her?

edit: The Hulk with a little dig at Sauber as well.

Reporter: "Are you surprised that Sauber has treated him like that?"
Nico: "No, not super surprised."

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Re: Van der Garde vs Sauber

Post by Tufty »

VDV23 wrote:
Laura23 wrote:
Tufty wrote:
Laura23 wrote:He just wore the suit for the seat fitting. I don't think Sauber were ever going to let him drive the car.
I'm not sure their intentions have much bearing against a court order, but if they had it their way I agree he'd never turn a wheel.
The court order ordered them to prepare fro VDG to drive. They didn't do that the second they failed to tell the CRB that VDg's contract should never have been terminated. All the while Kaltenborn tried to pull a fast one by sending a halfarsed letter to the FIA about VDg's Superlicence knowing it wouldn't go anywhere.
It's shameful, really.

Is Peter Sauber the only one who has the power to fire her?

edit: The Hulk with a little dig at Sauber as well.

Reporter: "Are you surprised that Sauber has treated him like that?"
Nico: "No, not super surprised."
I thought Peter backed right out.

Laura, thanks for the clarification.
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Re: Van der Garde vs Sauber

Post by VDV23 »

I thought he still holds 66% of Sauber (and Kaltenborn the other 33%)?

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Re: Van der Garde vs Sauber

Post by wire2004 »

from sky sports f1 live blog
Even if Sauber wanted to, it seems that attempts for van der Garde to get a superlicence for this weekend have run into problems with the process usually taking a number of days to complete. We've heard that the Dutchman has been into Race Director Charlie Whiting's office in the last hour, but it certainly doesn't look like he's going to be driving in P1.
and sauber have confirmed that nasser and erricson will drive fp1

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Re: Van der Garde vs Sauber

Post by FormulaFun »

Can someone tell me how Kaltenborn hasn't lost her job yet? Sauber have been shocking since she took over and now shes fully dropped a bollock

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Re: Van der Garde vs Sauber

Post by Laura23 »

wire2004 wrote:from sky sports f1 live blog
Even if Sauber wanted to, it seems that attempts for van der Garde to get a superlicence for this weekend have run into problems with the process usually taking a number of days to complete. We've heard that the Dutchman has been into Race Director Charlie Whiting's office in the last hour, but it certainly doesn't look like he's going to be driving in P1.
and sauber have confirmed that nasser and erricson will drive fp1
They chose not to confirm that no one could fire up the cars because the court case is still ongoing. Monisha likely to end up in court under contempt of the law and Sauber's assists seized. That's the end of Kaltenborn and quite possibly the past we will see of Sauber in F1.
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Re: Van der Garde vs Sauber

Post by Jezick »

Laura23 wrote:
wire2004 wrote:from sky sports f1 live blog
Even if Sauber wanted to, it seems that attempts for van der Garde to get a superlicence for this weekend have run into problems with the process usually taking a number of days to complete. We've heard that the Dutchman has been into Race Director Charlie Whiting's office in the last hour, but it certainly doesn't look like he's going to be driving in P1.
and sauber have confirmed that nasser and erricson will drive fp1
They chose not to confirm that no one could fire up the cars because the court case is still ongoing. Monisha likely to end up in court under contempt of the law and Sauber's assists seized. That's the end of Kaltenborn and quite possibly the past we will see of Sauber in F1.
Unbelievable that Sauber's reputation has been destroyed but rightly so :( Kaltenborn's footnote in F1 is not what it should have been and Peter Sauber must be gutted.

However, in three days the the bullshit/influence/money/lies/PR might win out and all will be 'good' again :(

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Re: Van der Garde vs Sauber

Post by mph »

I have a strong feeling VDG and co will be behind a take-over of Sauber..

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Re: Van der Garde vs Sauber

Post by dizlexik »

I think that team is pretty much done now. I can imagine that without money from either Ericson or Nasr they team would go bankrupt.
eeee

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Re: Van der Garde vs Sauber

Post by Rubb. »

I hope we don't get a 16 car race on Sunday. 18 I could handle, but not 16. Ugh.

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Re: Van der Garde vs Sauber

Post by Blackhander »

Chanel 10 has reporters stationed outside the supreme court of Victoria as well as the Sauber garage, so we should know as soon as there is anything to know.
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Re: Van der Garde vs Sauber

Post by DarkoA »

Bernie is usually always vocal about the most random things about F1, it's very strange that he hasn't mentioned anything about this yet.

Maybe he's hoping for some extra viewership as a result of all of this?

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Re: Van der Garde vs Sauber

Post by Blackhander »

Agreed, I'm very surprised they haven't been charged with bringing the sport into disrepute. Must be an advantage in this somewhere for him
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Re: Van der Garde vs Sauber

Post by StanB123 »

Daniel Gallagher wrote:
Source: https://joesaward.wordpress.com/2015/03 ... ther-view/

It seems Joe Saward is so knowledgeable of the subject of business backstage details that he somehow is feeling for Sauber's demise. He sounds ridiculous with these observations of the whole affair. He seems to think that because it is so 'hard' to keep a team alive that VDG and co. doesn't have the right to destroy it even if being right.

I don't get this, really, and I hope that Sauber goes to hell really. Giant corporations shouldn't be worth more than those who run the show, the drivers. Without them, F1 is nothing.
To be honest, I quite like Joe's blog. He has interesting opinions and a unique view to things.

However, in this case I think he is far from impartial, and letting his personal relationship with the Sauber team, and the people who work there colour his opinion. Which is fine, I suppose his blog is his blog and not one of his publications. I am sure his publications won't be as far out of touch as his blog entries on this.

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Re: Van der Garde vs Sauber

Post by Herb »

Apparently Monisha is refusing to answer any questions on the case in the press conference.

Spoilsport! :(

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Re: Van der Garde vs Sauber

Post by Saz »

Herb wrote:Apparently Monisha is refusing to answer any questions on the case in the press conference.

Spoilsport! :(
That's likely to be due to the ongoing nature of the case. Generally speaking if cases are ongoing people in cases are advised not to disclose any information incase it damages their cases.
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Re: Van der Garde vs Sauber

Post by DarkoA »

Case adjourned until Saturday apparently...

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/118027

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Re: Van der Garde vs Sauber

Post by backdoc »

DarkoA wrote:Case adjourned until Saturday apparently...

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/118027
No. Channel 10 has reported they'll be in court tonight and if no resolution they reconvene in the morning (Saturday). This is so bizarre!

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Re: Van der Garde vs Sauber

Post by Richard86 »

If this was in a film i would say its to far fetched, to have a F1 team in such a mess with 3 drivers. Crazy situation.

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Re: Van der Garde vs Sauber

Post by Beschy »

Got to admire VdG's resolve to keep going like this. How awkward must the Sauber seat fitting have been.
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Re: Van der Garde vs Sauber

Post by Richard86 »

Beschy wrote:Got to admire VdG's resolve to keep going like this. How awkward must the Sauber seat fitting have been.
Yeah I bet many would have just let it go or settled out of court by now and got on with looking for another drive or another motorsport series

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Re: Van der Garde vs Sauber

Post by Amon »

That people are still trying to defend Sauber, yeah I understand you don't want to lose teams but we really don't need teams handling drivers like this.
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Re: Van der Garde vs Sauber

Post by egnat69 »

Herb wrote:Apparently Monisha is refusing to answer any questions on the case in the press conference.

Spoilsport! :(
Apparently she is also refusing to step down... :?
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Re: Van der Garde vs Sauber

Post by Aussie Grit »

Ehh, this is disgusting.
Supporting Alonso, Ricciardo and Hulk.

Find it hard to resist responding to stupid posts.

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Re: Van der Garde vs Sauber

Post by Beschy »

Monisha was pretty defiant in the TP's Press Conference. Definitely had an air of I've done nothing wrong.
Schumacher was better than Senna.

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Re: Van der Garde vs Sauber

Post by moby »

Amon wrote:That people are still trying to defend Sauber, yeah I understand you don't want to lose teams but we really don't need teams handling drivers like this.

It is not just with the drivers, it is with the drivers backers. I think any sponsor will think twice now before committing themselves to a team that gets this sort of negative press, let alone the backers being unsure of having their own contracts upheld if a better looking offer is waved at them.

Even if they get through this, their mid time prospects look poor.

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Re: Van der Garde vs Sauber

Post by Zoue »

Early on Friday, van der Garde had a seat fitting in the C34, but the atmosphere in the Sauber garage was icy, according to Auto Motor und Sport correspondent Michael Schmidt.

He reported that after the Dutchman finally managed to secure a guest paddock pass, the bulk of Sauber’s mechanics walked out as a skeleton crew fitted his seat.
http://www.grandprix247.com/2015/03/13/ ... equipment/

I don't quite understand why the mechanics are giving him the cold shoulder. It's hardly his fault that Kaltenborn has been less than honest with him?

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