Van der Garde vs Sauber

Laura23 · Post by **Laura23** » Mon Mar 09, 2015 5:49 am

This case has taken a rather ridiculous turn today after Sauber claimed the following - http://adamcooperf1.com/2015/03/09/saub ... rde-races/

Apparently VDG can't drive for them because he hasn't had a seat fitting, despite them already having a seat for him from last year and his seven Friday sessions with the team. The chassis rules are so tight that the seat he used last year would be completely fine as an interim solution until he had a new seat fitting. They also claim VDG doesn't know the systems of the Sauber car, a car that hasn't changed all that much from the 2014 car he did drive. Another pathetic argument from the team that has been laughed at on social media. To top off Sauber's morning they claimed VDG didn't have a valid Superlicence, something his legal team were only too happy to present to the court on paper given he's held a Superlicence for years now.

Sauber really have embarrassed themselves this morning and I really do hope VDG takes them to the cleaners. If he wins and they have to race him then whoever they have to boot out of Nasr and Ericsson will take the team through the courts all over again as soon as they can. If they drop Nasr they'll lose $60million from Banco do Brasil, that's over half their budget for 2015.

dizlexik · Post by **dizlexik** » Mon Mar 09, 2015 6:24 am

I don't think he will ever race if team doesn't want him to do so. More likely Sauber will pay a fine.

Laura23 · Post by **Laura23** » Mon Mar 09, 2015 6:32 am

dizlexik wrote:I don't think he will ever race if team doesn't want him to do so. More likely Sauber will pay a fine.

A contract is a contract. If the court says he can race he will race. If VDG just wanted money he'd have made that very clear in court by saying he doesn't want to race but wants compensation for the team selling his seat without his knowledge. He has made it very clear he wants that race seat to race in.

Sauber are in so much mess. Way more mess than Caterham or Marussia ever were in 2014. They still have Sutil's court case to come and he apparently has a case just as strong as VDG's. Monisha has sold two seats even though they were already bought and paid for.

dizlexik · Post by **dizlexik** » Mon Mar 09, 2015 6:50 am

Laura23 wrote:
dizlexik wrote:I don't think he will ever race if team doesn't want him to do so. More likely Sauber will pay a fine.
A contract is a contract. If the court says he can race he will race. If VDG just wanted money he'd have made that very clear in court by saying he doesn't want to race but wants compensation for the team selling his seat without his knowledge. He has made it very clear he wants that race seat to race in.

Sauber are in so much mess. Way more mess than Caterham or Marussia ever were in 2014. They still have Sutil's court case to come and he apparently has a case just as strong as VDG's. Monisha has sold two seats even though they were already bought and paid for.

What if Sauber doesn't obey to court order? Kalterborn will go to jail or what? I think Sauber will pay a fine or reach some out of court settelment with VDG.

mds · Post by **mds** » Mon Mar 09, 2015 6:52 am

Well this whole thing is looking bad, isn't it? When Sauber's best arguments seem to be that "he wouldn't fit because the car is made for Nasr and Ericsson", "he hasn't had a seat fitting and that takes 3 weeks" or "we don't have the right seat belts" it seems clear that they really screwed up and haven't got a case.

I mean, if they're not even challenging Giedo's claim to have a legally binding contract, then it certainly seems like he does.

Laura23 · Post by **Laura23** » Mon Mar 09, 2015 6:53 am

dizlexik wrote:
Laura23 wrote:
dizlexik wrote:I don't think he will ever race if team doesn't want him to do so. More likely Sauber will pay a fine.
A contract is a contract. If the court says he can race he will race. If VDG just wanted money he'd have made that very clear in court by saying he doesn't want to race but wants compensation for the team selling his seat without his knowledge. He has made it very clear he wants that race seat to race in.

Sauber are in so much mess. Way more mess than Caterham or Marussia ever were in 2014. They still have Sutil's court case to come and he apparently has a case just as strong as VDG's. Monisha has sold two seats even though they were already bought and paid for.
What if Sauber doesn't obey to court order? Kalterborn will go to jail or what? I think Sauber will pay a fine or reach some out of court settelment with VDG.

If Sauber doesn't obey the court order they could very well face themselves with heavy sanctions from the FIA. They could be booted out of the sport and the company would be sued for everything they have by all four drivers. So they won't disobey it.

Laura23 · Post by **Laura23** » Mon Mar 09, 2015 6:54 am

mds wrote:Well this whole thing is looking bad, isn't it? When Sauber's best arguments seem to be that "he wouldn't fit because the car is made for Nasr and Ericsson", "he hasn't had a seat fitting and that takes 3 weeks" or "we don't have the right seat belts" it seems clear that they really screwed up and haven't got a case.

I mean, if they're not even challenging Giedo's claim to have a legally binding contract, then it certainly seems like he does.

The best bit was claiming he doesn't have a Superlicence. Even though he clearly does and they employed him in 2014 with no fuss. Sauber look absolutely terrible right now.

egnat69 · Post by **egnat69** » Mon Mar 09, 2015 6:58 am

dizlexik wrote:
Laura23 wrote:
dizlexik wrote:I don't think he will ever race if team doesn't want him to do so. More likely Sauber will pay a fine.
A contract is a contract. If the court says he can race he will race. If VDG just wanted money he'd have made that very clear in court by saying he doesn't want to race but wants compensation for the team selling his seat without his knowledge. He has made it very clear he wants that race seat to race in.

Sauber are in so much mess. Way more mess than Caterham or Marussia ever were in 2014. They still have Sutil's court case to come and he apparently has a case just as strong as VDG's. Monisha has sold two seats even though they were already bought and paid for.
What if Sauber doesn't obey to court order? Kalterborn will go to jail or what? I think Sauber will pay a fine or reach some out of court settelment with VDG.

sauber - or probably mainly kaltenborn - got themselves into this position... by saying it would be a safety issue to let him race they already basically stated that there is no legal way out of this contract...

that said, they will not just have to pay a fine... VDGs sponsors paid a substential amount of money to sauber in 2014 due to the contract allowing him to race in 2015... they would have to pay back that money plus some sort of compensation as the driver couldn't persue his planned path...

sutil is also sueing them for compensation... doesn't look good but it seems like they gambled and maybe lost...

anyhow - the explaination of the cars being taylored to bodysize is pretty plain BS and almost anyone of us could tell the judge if asked... teams don't have a T-car per se, but they have all required parts to build one within a couble of hours - in case one of the drivers bins it and destroys the chassis... if they can build up a car for any of the 3 drivers (2 standard + one spare driver), they surely can build one for VDG in a week... they also should have his seat already...

dizlexik · Post by **dizlexik** » Mon Mar 09, 2015 6:59 am

Laura23 wrote:
dizlexik wrote:
Laura23 wrote:
dizlexik wrote:I don't think he will ever race if team doesn't want him to do so. More likely Sauber will pay a fine.
A contract is a contract. If the court says he can race he will race. If VDG just wanted money he'd have made that very clear in court by saying he doesn't want to race but wants compensation for the team selling his seat without his knowledge. He has made it very clear he wants that race seat to race in.

Sauber are in so much mess. Way more mess than Caterham or Marussia ever were in 2014. They still have Sutil's court case to come and he apparently has a case just as strong as VDG's. Monisha has sold two seats even though they were already bought and paid for.
What if Sauber doesn't obey to court order? Kalterborn will go to jail or what? I think Sauber will pay a fine or reach some out of court settelment with VDG.
If Sauber doesn't obey the court order they could very well face themselves with heavy sanctions from the FIA. They could be booted out of the sport and the company would be sued for everything they have by all four drivers. So they won't disobey it.

Then they will have to boot another driver and face similar action from him? No way Bernie would want to get rid of Sauber too. I don't think it's anyones interest beyond VDG to ban Sauber from sport.

mds · Post by **mds** » Mon Mar 09, 2015 7:07 am

Laura23 wrote:
mds wrote:Well this whole thing is looking bad, isn't it? When Sauber's best arguments seem to be that "he wouldn't fit because the car is made for Nasr and Ericsson", "he hasn't had a seat fitting and that takes 3 weeks" or "we don't have the right seat belts" it seems clear that they really screwed up and haven't got a case.

I mean, if they're not even challenging Giedo's claim to have a legally binding contract, then it certainly seems like he does.
The best bit was claiming he doesn't have a Superlicence. Even though he clearly does and they employed him in 2014 with no fuss. Sauber look absolutely terrible right now.

Agreed, that was probably the most absurd. Not the stuff you'd expect from well-paid corporate lawyers. I understand they're trying to play the safety game in absence of sound arguments against the contract itself, but just taking a guess about the SL and hoping it works is incredibly stupid.

I mean, how can he NOT have a super license? He raced in 2013 and drove free practices in 2014!

Laura23 · Post by **Laura23** » Mon Mar 09, 2015 7:09 am

dizlexik wrote:
Laura23 wrote:
dizlexik wrote:
Laura23 wrote:
dizlexik wrote:I don't think he will ever race if team doesn't want him to do so. More likely Sauber will pay a fine.
A contract is a contract. If the court says he can race he will race. If VDG just wanted money he'd have made that very clear in court by saying he doesn't want to race but wants compensation for the team selling his seat without his knowledge. He has made it very clear he wants that race seat to race in.

Sauber are in so much mess. Way more mess than Caterham or Marussia ever were in 2014. They still have Sutil's court case to come and he apparently has a case just as strong as VDG's. Monisha has sold two seats even though they were already bought and paid for.
What if Sauber doesn't obey to court order? Kalterborn will go to jail or what? I think Sauber will pay a fine or reach some out of court settelment with VDG.
If Sauber doesn't obey the court order they could very well face themselves with heavy sanctions from the FIA. They could be booted out of the sport and the company would be sued for everything they have by all four drivers. So they won't disobey it.
Then they will have to boot another driver and face similar action from him? No way Bernie would want to get rid of Sauber too. I don't think it's anyones interest beyond VDG to ban Sauber from sport.

If a court of law says VDG has to drive then he will drive and yes that means another driver with a contract will be misplaced and Sauber will face more legal action from that driver. Sauber are going to lose a lot of money regardless of what happens and we can safely throw their 2015 campaign out of the window as far as I am concerned.

Laura23 · Post by **Laura23** » Mon Mar 09, 2015 7:11 am

mds wrote:
Laura23 wrote:
mds wrote:Well this whole thing is looking bad, isn't it? When Sauber's best arguments seem to be that "he wouldn't fit because the car is made for Nasr and Ericsson", "he hasn't had a seat fitting and that takes 3 weeks" or "we don't have the right seat belts" it seems clear that they really screwed up and haven't got a case.

I mean, if they're not even challenging Giedo's claim to have a legally binding contract, then it certainly seems like he does.
The best bit was claiming he doesn't have a Superlicence. Even though he clearly does and they employed him in 2014 with no fuss. Sauber look absolutely terrible right now.
Agreed, that was probably the most absurd. Not the stuff you'd expect from well-paid corporate lawyers. I understand they're trying to play the safety game in absence of sound arguments against the contract itself, but just taking a guess about the SL and hoping it works is incredibly stupid.

I mean, how can he NOT have a super license? He raced in 2013 and drove free practices in 2014!

Exactly. I can't believe for a minute that the Sauber lawyer doesn't know the F1 rules regarding holding a Superlicence for 2015, if they don't then you have to question Sauber. I wonder how the Sauber lawyer looked when VDG's legal team walked up to the stand to give the judge the copy of VDG's Superlicence? The same one he would have and to show Sauber last year before signing his contract.

I honestly hope Sauber get taken for everything they have here.

egnat69 · Post by **egnat69** » Mon Mar 09, 2015 7:25 am

Laura23 wrote:I honestly hope Sauber get taken for everything they have here.

I really thought that they knew what they were doing... when kaltenborn said they knew what they have on hand, it seemed like sutil and vdg only had some sort of pre-agreement that wouldn't get them into trouble if not adhered to... no question, they did it out of pure desperation... but that doesn't justify breaking two contracts and keeping the money they got for said contracts... that would be fraud, wouldn't it?

VDG will be some sort of tragical hero in this story... if his case is the reason for sauber to fold, he will generate a lot of hate from their fans... but someone has to step up in the end...

dizlexik · Post by **dizlexik** » Mon Mar 09, 2015 7:30 am

Laura23 wrote:If a court of law says VDG has to drive then he will drive and yes that means another driver with a contract will be misplaced and Sauber will face more legal action from that driver. Sauber are going to lose a lot of money regardless of what happens and we can safely throw their 2015 campaign out of the window as far as I am concerned.

Yes, they will lose money, no doubt, but I still think the odds are that VDG won't drive for them.

Laura23 · Post by **Laura23** » Mon Mar 09, 2015 7:34 am

dizlexik wrote:
Laura23 wrote:If a court of law says VDG has to drive then he will drive and yes that means another driver with a contract will be misplaced and Sauber will face more legal action from that driver. Sauber are going to lose a lot of money regardless of what happens and we can safely throw their 2015 campaign out of the window as far as I am concerned.
Yes, they will lose money, no doubt, but I still think the odds are that VDG won't drive for them.

If VDG doesn't drive it'll be because Sauber will pay him tens of millions not to. They still have Sutil to deal with on top of all this.

mds · Post by **mds** » Mon Mar 09, 2015 7:35 am

egnat69 wrote: VDG will be some sort of tragical hero in this story... if his case is the reason for sauber to fold, he will generate a lot of hate from their fans... but someone has to step up in the end...

I'll be honest, I understand why he is doing it, but in terms of his racing career he will not draw much positives out of it. Short-term maybe, if he gets to drive one or a few races for Sauber. But after that he's likely not to be seen again in F1 and I wonder if he'll easily find good seats outside of F1.

Racing teams will not forget this. However unjust it may be.

egnat69 · Post by **egnat69** » Mon Mar 09, 2015 7:53 am

mds wrote:
egnat69 wrote: VDG will be some sort of tragical hero in this story... if his case is the reason for sauber to fold, he will generate a lot of hate from their fans... but someone has to step up in the end...
I'll be honest, I understand why he is doing it, but in terms of his racing career he will not draw much positives out of it. Short-term maybe, if he gets to drive one or a few races for Sauber. But after that he's likely not to be seen again in F1 and I wonder if he'll easily find good seats outside of F1.

Racing teams will not forget this. However unjust it may be.

he effectively has been robbed... either he or his backers... if he didn't take any action, he'd be losing his backers so that would probably be the end of his racing career entirely... sponsors will also not forget this, however unjust it may be...

i don't really know his qualities as a driver... but teams tend to be forgiving if the time and circumstances are right (cf. Alonso)...

Laura23 · Post by **Laura23** » Mon Mar 09, 2015 7:53 am

mds wrote:
egnat69 wrote: VDG will be some sort of tragical hero in this story... if his case is the reason for sauber to fold, he will generate a lot of hate from their fans... but someone has to step up in the end...
I'll be honest, I understand why he is doing it, but in terms of his racing career he will not draw much positives out of it. Short-term maybe, if he gets to drive one or a few races for Sauber. But after that he's likely not to be seen again in F1 and I wonder if he'll easily find good seats outside of F1.

Racing teams will not forget this. However unjust it may be.

Nor will potential sponsors forget the mess Sauber have made of the entire thing either.

dizlexik · Post by **dizlexik** » Mon Mar 09, 2015 7:55 am

Laura23 wrote:
dizlexik wrote:
Laura23 wrote:If a court of law says VDG has to drive then he will drive and yes that means another driver with a contract will be misplaced and Sauber will face more legal action from that driver. Sauber are going to lose a lot of money regardless of what happens and we can safely throw their 2015 campaign out of the window as far as I am concerned.
Yes, they will lose money, no doubt, but I still think the odds are that VDG won't drive for them.
If VDG doesn't drive it'll be because Sauber will pay him tens of millions not to. They still have Sutil to deal with on top of all this.

Yes, but if Ericsion or Nasr doesn't drive Sauber will also have to pay. Given that Sauber is receive money from current drivers sponsors, the choice is easy.

mds · Post by **mds** » Mon Mar 09, 2015 7:57 am

Laura23 wrote:
mds wrote:
egnat69 wrote: VDG will be some sort of tragical hero in this story... if his case is the reason for sauber to fold, he will generate a lot of hate from their fans... but someone has to step up in the end...
I'll be honest, I understand why he is doing it, but in terms of his racing career he will not draw much positives out of it. Short-term maybe, if he gets to drive one or a few races for Sauber. But after that he's likely not to be seen again in F1 and I wonder if he'll easily find good seats outside of F1.

Racing teams will not forget this. However unjust it may be.
Nor will potential sponsors forget the mess Sauber have made of the entire thing either.

That remains to be seen. Some will be put off no doubt, but I don't see them cease to exist because of this.

Laura23 · Post by **Laura23** » Mon Mar 09, 2015 7:59 am

dizlexik wrote:
Laura23 wrote:
dizlexik wrote:
Laura23 wrote:If a court of law says VDG has to drive then he will drive and yes that means another driver with a contract will be misplaced and Sauber will face more legal action from that driver. Sauber are going to lose a lot of money regardless of what happens and we can safely throw their 2015 campaign out of the window as far as I am concerned.
Yes, they will lose money, no doubt, but I still think the odds are that VDG won't drive for them.
If VDG doesn't drive it'll be because Sauber will pay him tens of millions not to. They still have Sutil to deal with on top of all this.
Yes, but if Ericsion or Nasr doesn't drive Sauber will also have to pay. Given that Sauber is receive money from current drivers sponsors, the choice is easy.

It isn't. If VDG wins the case and chooses to driver Sauber can't do anything about it. They would have to drop either Nasr or Ericsson. Ericsson would likely get the boot because Nasr is providing half of Sauber's budget this year. There are already rumours Banco do Brasil are less than impressed with Sauber's conduct recently so it isn't out of the question that they might pull out of the Sauber deal themselves yet.

If Sutil then goes on to win his unfair dismissal trial then Sauber will pretty much be finished as an F1 team.

mds · Post by **mds** » Mon Mar 09, 2015 8:01 am

egnat69 wrote:
mds wrote:
egnat69 wrote: VDG will be some sort of tragical hero in this story... if his case is the reason for sauber to fold, he will generate a lot of hate from their fans... but someone has to step up in the end...
I'll be honest, I understand why he is doing it, but in terms of his racing career he will not draw much positives out of it. Short-term maybe, if he gets to drive one or a few races for Sauber. But after that he's likely not to be seen again in F1 and I wonder if he'll easily find good seats outside of F1.

Racing teams will not forget this. However unjust it may be.
he effectively has been robbed... either he or his backers... if he didn't take any action, he'd be losing his backers so that would probably be the end of his racing career entirely... sponsors will also not forget this, however unjust it may be...

Well I don't know what has played between both parties in recent months but the best thing for him would have been to try and settle with Sauber. Get his money back at the very least, some compensation as well.

I agree that he has been done injustice to. After seeing Saubers defence I have no doubt. But taking a team to court is a big step and in terms of his career that will not have any positive outcomes.

i don't really know his qualities as a driver... but teams tend to be forgiving if the time and circumstances are right (cf. Alonso)...

He's not the best and I don't think he merits a place in F1 by virtue of talent alone. But he could have a great racing career elsewhere. It would be a shame to see all that go to waste.

dizlexik · Post by **dizlexik** » Mon Mar 09, 2015 8:05 am

Laura23 wrote:
dizlexik wrote:
Laura23 wrote:
dizlexik wrote:
Laura23 wrote:If a court of law says VDG has to drive then he will drive and yes that means another driver with a contract will be misplaced and Sauber will face more legal action from that driver. Sauber are going to lose a lot of money regardless of what happens and we can safely throw their 2015 campaign out of the window as far as I am concerned.
Yes, they will lose money, no doubt, but I still think the odds are that VDG won't drive for them.
If VDG doesn't drive it'll be because Sauber will pay him tens of millions not to. They still have Sutil to deal with on top of all this.
Yes, but if Ericsion or Nasr doesn't drive Sauber will also have to pay. Given that Sauber is receive money from current drivers sponsors, the choice is easy.
It isn't. If VDG wins the case and chooses to driver Sauber can't do anything about it. They would have to drop either Nasr or Ericsson. Ericsson would likely get the boot because Nasr is providing half of Sauber's budget this year. There are already rumours Banco do Brasil are less than impressed with Sauber's conduct recently so it isn't out of the question that they might pull out of the Sauber deal themselves yet.

If Sutil then goes on to win his unfair dismissal trial then Sauber will pretty much be finished as an F1 team.

What is the penalty if Sauber doesn't give VDG a race seat?

egnat69 · Post by **egnat69** » Mon Mar 09, 2015 8:12 am

dizlexik wrote:What is the penalty if Sauber doesn't give VDG a race seat?

as i said further up: pay back the money they got from his backers (or at least a big chunk of that), pay compensation for him not driving this season (if he can convincingly tell the court he turned down other offers in favour of his sauber seat, that could be some money indeed), plus the legal costs of the court(s) and VDG probably... same goes for sutil and his backers... definitely a good chunk of their budget which doesn't look to cover the entire season anyway...

Laura23 · Post by **Laura23** » Mon Mar 09, 2015 8:14 am

If Sauber refuse to run VDG despite him winning the court case they will face sanctions from the FIA. If VDG's contract is ruled to be the only one valid for that race seat then one of either Nasr's or Ericsson's will be deemed void. Sauber will also likely face penalties from the courts for disobeying the law regarding work contracts. They would also ruin any reputation they and and sponsors would run a mile, as I said Banco do Brasil are already said to be less than impressed with the situation and they might just upsticks and leave anyway.

Just about every respected journalist involved with F1 believes Sauber's defence has been terrible and that VDG looks likely to win the case. If he chooses to accept financial terms and leave the team it will cost Sauber tens of millions they don't have to do so. It was rumoured that VDG brought well over $10million to the team for a reserve driver role with that money doubling should he get a race seat. He'd have to be compensated in that region of money. Given they will also most likely have to pay Adrian Sutil a similar amount of cash Sauber's budget for 2015 will be blown to pieces.

egnat69 · Post by **egnat69** » Mon Mar 09, 2015 8:19 am

mds wrote:Well I don't know what has played between both parties in recent months but the best thing for him would have been to try and settle with Sauber. Get his money back at the very least, some compensation as well.

I agree that he has been done injustice to. After seeing Saubers defence I have no doubt. But taking a team to court is a big step and in terms of his career that will not have any positive outcomes.

i don't know either, but looking back at kaltenborn's comments in brazil, she didn't seem to be very interested in talking: http://www.crash.net/f1/news/210617/1/k ... s-set.html

i also don't know how much VDG paid for his contract, but i guess only a fraction of it was for being reserve driver in 2014 and the bigger part was aimed at being a regular driver in 2015... given their struggles (and being offered an advance cashout from bernie to make it to the first flyaways), they don't seem to be in a position to settle this issue money-wise...

mds · Post by **mds** » Mon Mar 09, 2015 8:27 am

Laura23 wrote:If Sauber refuse to run VDG despite him winning the court case they will face sanctions from the FIA. If VDG's contract is ruled to be the only one valid for that race seat then one of either Nasr's or Ericsson's will be deemed void.

I don't think the court will rule about the validity of other contracts, only about VdG's. The likely outcome is that they will rule that VdG's is valid and he should race, but not say anything about Nasr and Ericsson. Basically that's a mess that will follow after the verdict on VdG's case because if Nasr or Ericsson are pushed out, they'll be suing as well.

Just read that the verdict is expected on Wednesday. We're starting 2015 with great last-minute suspense, so it seems.

mds · Post by **mds** » Mon Mar 09, 2015 8:29 am

Adam Cooper raises an interesting point: http://adamcooperf1.com/2015/03/09/saub ... rde-races/

Drivers jumping into cars with no testing and compromised seats is part of F1. It might concern the FIA that a team has chosen to link it to safety – and even death – in a court of law.

They're also talking about spectator safety. Clutching at straws.

dizlexik · Post by **dizlexik** » Mon Mar 09, 2015 8:29 am

Laura23 wrote:If Sauber refuse to run VDG despite him winning the court case they will face sanctions from the FIA. If VDG's contract is ruled to be the only one valid for that race seat then one of either Nasr's or Ericsson's will be deemed void. Sauber will also likely face penalties from the courts for disobeying the law regarding work contracts. They would also ruin any reputation they and and sponsors would run a mile, as I said Banco do Brasil are already said to be less than impressed with the situation and they might just upsticks and leave anyway.

Just about every respected journalist involved with F1 believes Sauber's defence has been terrible and that VDG looks likely to win the case. If he chooses to accept financial terms and leave the team it will cost Sauber tens of millions they don't have to do so. It was rumoured that VDG brought well over $10million to the team for a reserve driver role with that money doubling should he get a race seat. He'd have to be compensated in that region of money. Given they will also most likely have to pay Adrian Sutil a similar amount of cash Sauber's budget for 2015 will be blown to pieces.

I don't think it works like that. It's more like a fraud, becaseu all 3 have rights to racing seat. This isn't something that can be solved by forcing team to honor contracts. Either way I hope Kalterborn will get a boot, assuming Sauber still cares about team and Kalterborn is still minority shareholder.

Fiki · Post by **Fiki** » Mon Mar 09, 2015 8:34 am

This is very sad. Sauber used to be the most respectable team.

Saz · Post by **Saz** » Mon Mar 09, 2015 9:34 am

This is quite the mess. There's absolutely no doubt that Sauber are in the wrong here, but is this not proof at how bad the funding for F1 is, if teams are prepared to go to these lengths to secure money from their drivers? The end result is likely to have cost them even more money than they gained however.

From the links in the above posts and what's been said here, I can't see Sauber winning this. I'm not 100% that if VDG wins he will get the seat however, it seems more likely that Sauber forced to pay him out his contract + any damages. That tends to be the normal outcome of disputes involving contracts. We will have to wait and see I guess, but this is not really the drama F1 needs so close to season start.

Blackhander · Post by **Blackhander** » Mon Mar 09, 2015 9:53 am

Very interested to see how this turns out. There is no way that a team should ever be permitted to sell the same race seats to multiple drivers. The defence looks so weak that there almost isn't one and I'm expecting vdg will win this case. But unfortunately I doubt that will really mean anything. If he has a standing contract for a race seat then he should be given that seat, even if the team sold that same seat to someone else at a later date. In reality he'll be lucky to receive the money he brought the team last year back, and maybe some token compensation.

mikeyg123 · Post by **mikeyg123** » Mon Mar 09, 2015 10:16 am

Monisha has been a disaster of a team principle since the very beginning.

That being said I think the courts will not force Sauber to run VDG because they will know full well that hey have two other drivers with contracts so it would be impossible for them abide by all the contracts they signed.

VDG will get a pay off and it will not be as big here as some are speculating. Certainly not "tens of millions" because VDG has not lost out on "tens of millions". If his sponsors have paid money out on the basis of him racing in the car then they will have to be refunded of course. Looking at the Sauber though I can't see any sponsors on there that would of come from VDG.

I don't think the situation is as bleak as people are painting it for Sauber but they have behaved very poorly.

mds · Post by **mds** » Mon Mar 09, 2015 10:27 am

mikeyg123 wrote:Looking at the Sauber though I can't see any sponsors on there that would of come from VDG.

Of course not. They dropped VdG at the end of last year, remember? It's only logical that they wouldn't put any of his sponsors on it.

That doesn't mean his sponsors didn't make payments in 2014 in order to support the contract that he had signed towards 2015.

Laura23 · Post by **Laura23** » Mon Mar 09, 2015 10:31 am

mds wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:Looking at the Sauber though I can't see any sponsors on there that would of come from VDG.
Of course not. They dropped VdG at the end of last year, remember? It's only logical that they wouldn't put any of his sponsors on it.

That doesn't mean his sponsors didn't make payments in 2014 in order to support the contract that he had signed towards 2015.

VDG, therefore his sponsors, paid Sauber $10million for 2014. The agreement was around double that for a race seat in 2015 and half of it was paid upfront because the contract was signed. So Sauber could be $10million out of pocket before the year even starts.

mikeyg123 · Post by **mikeyg123** » Mon Mar 09, 2015 10:32 am

mds wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:Looking at the Sauber though I can't see any sponsors on there that would of come from VDG.
Of course not. They dropped VdG at the end of last year, remember? It's only logical that they wouldn't put any of his sponsors on it.

That doesn't mean his sponsors didn't make payments in 2014 in order to support the contract that he had signed towards 2015.

If sponsors paid on the basis of VDG being in the car in 2015 then of course they should be refunded.

egnat69 · Post by **egnat69** » Mon Mar 09, 2015 10:59 am

Laura23 wrote:
mds wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:Looking at the Sauber though I can't see any sponsors on there that would of come from VDG.
Of course not. They dropped VdG at the end of last year, remember? It's only logical that they wouldn't put any of his sponsors on it.

That doesn't mean his sponsors didn't make payments in 2014 in order to support the contract that he had signed towards 2015.
VDG, therefore his sponsors, paid Sauber $10million for 2014. The agreement was around double that for a race seat in 2015 and half of it was paid upfront because the contract was signed. So Sauber could be $10million out of pocket before the year even starts.

Well they just got $10 million from Bernie upfront so they can afford to fly to oz...

mikeyg123 · Post by **mikeyg123** » Mon Mar 09, 2015 11:17 am

egnat69 wrote:
Laura23 wrote:
mds wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:Looking at the Sauber though I can't see any sponsors on there that would of come from VDG.
Of course not. They dropped VdG at the end of last year, remember? It's only logical that they wouldn't put any of his sponsors on it.

That doesn't mean his sponsors didn't make payments in 2014 in order to support the contract that he had signed towards 2015.
VDG, therefore his sponsors, paid Sauber $10million for 2014. The agreement was around double that for a race seat in 2015 and half of it was paid upfront because the contract was signed. So Sauber could be $10million out of pocket before the year even starts.
Well they just got $10 million from Bernie upfront so they can afford to fly to oz...

If they don't have the 10 million up front the court may agree to a repayment plan.

egnat69 · Post by **egnat69** » Mon Mar 09, 2015 11:31 am

mikeyg123 wrote:If they don't have the 10 million up front the court may agree to a repayment plan.

I wonder if they would be deemed eligible for such a payment plan, considering their financial struggles

mikeyg123 · Post by **mikeyg123** » Mon Mar 09, 2015 11:48 am

egnat69 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:If they don't have the 10 million up front the court may agree to a repayment plan.
I wonder if they would be deemed eligible for such a payment plan, considering their financial struggles

A good point. Perhaps the commercial rights holder may agree to under right any such agreement?