Massa comments on Fernando, Kimi, Vettel

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Pullrod
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Re: Massa comments on Fernando, Kimi, Vettel

Post by Pullrod »

Well Massa said nothing new and in the "Alonso's luck thread" I said something similar not long ago.

Alonso is like Apple in the sense that their marketing and the way they work the media and the opposition is just Genius.
If a team wants to thrive, he is simply the last guy among the World champions to hire.
I wish him a speedy recovery though.

davidheath461
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Re: Massa comments on Fernando, Kimi, Vettel

Post by davidheath461 »

Pullrod wrote:Well Massa said nothing new and in the "Alonso's luck thread" I said something similar not long ago.

Alonso is like Apple in the sense that their marketing and the way they work the media and the opposition is just Genius.
If a team wants to thrive, he is simply the last guy among the World champions to hire.
I wish him a speedy recovery though.
Why?

spronkey
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Re: Massa comments on Fernando, Kimi, Vettel

Post by spronkey »

JMILAT wrote:In F1 when it comes to drivers emotion tends to overtake logic even by the bosses themselves. The only area I can see Raikkonen doing better next year is having a different benchmark which will be an illusion more than anything else. Lets be clear Raikkonen did not always perform to his potential in 2014, but it's really wild imaginations to suggest he would have got anywhere near Alonso anyway.

And whilst Vettel has had lots of success I'm not sure how relevant it is to Ferrari at the moment. All his success came in a great car, something Ferrari certainly seem to be lacking at the moment. If Vettel is to really prove his class he will dominate Raikkonen. We should not buy into the car suiting Raikkonen better, since 2007 happy or sad Raikkonen looks a several tenths short of drivers like Alonso.
I'm not sure I agree. The person driving the Ferrari last year didn't look like Kimi Raikkonen, and the only thing you can put that down to is a car that just didn't work for the guy.

Despite that, when you remove incidents of bad luck (Monaco, those Magnussen crashes), add in the fact that the pack was much tighter than when Fernando and Felipe were racing together, in many races last year there wasn't actually that much to choose between Kimi and Fernando.

The main differences seemed to stem from Fernando being able to overtake, which again, comes down to confidence in the car.

Watching video from these practices it's clear that Kimi is *much* more comfortable in this car - the whole way he is driving has changed, back to how he was at Lotus.

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Re: Massa comments on Fernando, Kimi, Vettel

Post by A2jdl »

spronkey wrote:
JMILAT wrote:In F1 when it comes to drivers emotion tends to overtake logic even by the bosses themselves. The only area I can see Raikkonen doing better next year is having a different benchmark which will be an illusion more than anything else. Lets be clear Raikkonen did not always perform to his potential in 2014, but it's really wild imaginations to suggest he would have got anywhere near Alonso anyway.

And whilst Vettel has had lots of success I'm not sure how relevant it is to Ferrari at the moment. All his success came in a great car, something Ferrari certainly seem to be lacking at the moment. If Vettel is to really prove his class he will dominate Raikkonen. We should not buy into the car suiting Raikkonen better, since 2007 happy or sad Raikkonen looks a several tenths short of drivers like Alonso.
I'm not sure I agree. The person driving the Ferrari last year didn't look like Kimi Raikkonen, and the only thing you can put that down to is a car that just didn't work for the guy.

Despite that, when you remove incidents of bad luck (Monaco, those Magnussen crashes), add in the fact that the pack was much tighter than when Fernando and Felipe were racing together, in many races last year there wasn't actually that much to choose between Kimi and Fernando.

The main differences seemed to stem from Fernando being able to overtake, which again, comes down to confidence in the car.

Watching video from these practices it's clear that Kimi is *much* more comfortable in this car - the whole way he is driving has changed, back to how he was at Lotus.
Did you just say there wasn't much to choose between kimi and fernando 8O

JMILAT
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Re: Massa comments on Fernando, Kimi, Vettel

Post by JMILAT »

spronkey wrote:
JMILAT wrote:In F1 when it comes to drivers emotion tends to overtake logic even by the bosses themselves. The only area I can see Raikkonen doing better next year is having a different benchmark which will be an illusion more than anything else. Lets be clear Raikkonen did not always perform to his potential in 2014, but it's really wild imaginations to suggest he would have got anywhere near Alonso anyway.

And whilst Vettel has had lots of success I'm not sure how relevant it is to Ferrari at the moment. All his success came in a great car, something Ferrari certainly seem to be lacking at the moment. If Vettel is to really prove his class he will dominate Raikkonen. We should not buy into the car suiting Raikkonen better, since 2007 happy or sad Raikkonen looks a several tenths short of drivers like Alonso.
I'm not sure I agree. The person driving the Ferrari last year didn't look like Kimi Raikkonen, and the only thing you can put that down to is a car that just didn't work for the guy.

Despite that, when you remove incidents of bad luck (Monaco, those Magnussen crashes), add in the fact that the pack was much tighter than when Fernando and Felipe were racing together, in many races last year there wasn't actually that much to choose between Kimi and Fernando.

The main differences seemed to stem from Fernando being able to overtake, which again, comes down to confidence in the car.

Watching video from these practices it's clear that Kimi is *much* more comfortable in this car - the whole way he is driving has changed, back to how he was at Lotus.
Kimi scored only about 1 third of Alonso's points. I agree he should do better than this, at least closer to half. We should remember that other than 2010, a season which Alonso made many mistakes, Massa never scored half of Alonso's points either though.

And we know Massa is pretty much as good as Kimi. Grosjean's performance at Lotus where over one lap he was basically as fast as Raikkonen also suggests that Lotus really had a very good car. It would make sense too that Raikkonen despite the impressive results was ultimately still a Massa level driver. Drivers don't really just gain chunks of speed, not one at Raikkonen's age and not one who had just had 2 years off racing.

In other words at Ferrari Raikkonen actually looked pretty much what you would expect against Alonso.

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Re: Massa comments on Fernando, Kimi, Vettel

Post by spronkey »

JMILAT wrote:Kimi scored only about 1 third of Alonso's points. I agree he should do better than this, at least closer to half. We should remember that other than 2010, a season which Alonso made many mistakes, Massa never scored half of Alonso's points either though.

And we know Massa is pretty much as good as Kimi. Grosjean's performance at Lotus where over one lap he was basically as fast as Raikkonen also suggests that Lotus really had a very good car. It would make sense too that Raikkonen despite the impressive results was ultimately still a Massa level driver. Drivers don't really just gain chunks of speed, not one at Raikkonen's age and not one who had just had 2 years off racing.

In other words at Ferrari Raikkonen actually looked pretty much what you would expect against Alonso.
Without the incidents, and normalising to include Alonso's failings as well, Kimi would be at around 60-70% of Alonso's points. Given how close the field was, a small difference between the two on the track resulted in a large points difference. Race after race the two were running one after another, only to be split by 4-5 cars at the pit stops. Kimi typically had the upper hand when the car was heavy, and Fernando typically had the upper hand when the car was light.

I also disagree that Massa is pretty much as good as Kimi. Again, if you go by points, sure. But if you look at the actual on track racing, it was very clear that Kimi was a better driver than Felipe throughout all 2.5 years at Ferrari. He was much more confident with overtaking, made fewer errors, managed the car much better during races etc. He just didn't translate that into points.

I'm not saying that Alonso isn't a better driver overall than Kimi - he may very well be - but the points scored last year didn't tell the full story at all.

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Blake
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Re: Massa comments on Fernando, Kimi, Vettel

Post by Blake »

Can someone please tell me what was in Massa's comments that justifies 3 pages of what a poor driver Massa was? This is ridiculously gone off on a tangent... and for no good reason that I can see.
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Exo
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Re: Massa comments on Fernando, Kimi, Vettel

Post by Exo »

Pullrod wrote: If a team wants to thrive, he is simply the last guy among the World champions to hire.
.
Which is why he is the highest paid driver in the sport and Mclaren just rehired him after the drama of 2007. Spot on you are.

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Re: Massa comments on Fernando, Kimi, Vettel

Post by Exo »

spronkey wrote: I'm not sure I agree. The person driving the Ferrari last year didn't look like Kimi Raikkonen,
Remove Alonso as his team mate and nobody would be saying it and just blaming the car. Kimi is 14 years in the sport and its pure co incidence he has his worst ever season the moment he teams with Alonso? Boy Alonso sure is a lucky guy.

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Re: Massa comments on Fernando, Kimi, Vettel

Post by RunningMan »

spronkey wrote:
Without the incidents, and normalising to include Alonso's failings as well, Kimi would be at around 60-70% of Alonso's points. Given how close the field was, a small difference between the two on the track resulted in a large points difference. Race after race the two were running one after another, only to be split by 4-5 cars at the pit stops. Kimi typically had the upper hand when the car was heavy, and Fernando typically had the upper hand when the car was light.

I also disagree that Massa is pretty much as good as Kimi. Again, if you go by points, sure. But if you look at the actual on track racing, it was very clear that Kimi was a better driver than Felipe throughout all 2.5 years at Ferrari. He was much more confident with overtaking, made fewer errors, managed the car much better during races etc. He just didn't translate that into points.

I'm not saying that Alonso isn't a better driver overall than Kimi - he may very well be - but the points scored last year didn't tell the full story at all.
LOL. You may be a fan of Kimi, but come off it. You're clutching at straws here to say the least.
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Pullrod
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Re: Massa comments on Fernando, Kimi, Vettel

Post by Pullrod »

Exo wrote:
Pullrod wrote: If a team wants to thrive, he is simply the last guy among the World champions to hire.
.
Which is why he is the highest paid driver in the sport and Mclaren just rehired him after the drama of 2007. Spot on you are.
Feel free to revisit my comments in 1 year or 2.
Alonso will either trash Button or will be beaten and will leave the team.

I have seen many F1 seasons to conclude that he has the "wrong"(for the team not for himself) tools to transform a team.
It's like I(Alonso) ask my boss to buy a particular obscure(to my colleagues/teammate) software to do state of the art design.

I remember the Monaco GP (2011 or 2012 I don't remember) where Massa was so close to Alonso in the first laps(with other cars behind) and wanted to overtake, but Alonso asked(via his race engineer) him to stay put because he was driving slower on purpose for his strategy.

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Re: Massa comments on Fernando, Kimi, Vettel

Post by davidheath461 »

Pullrod wrote:
Exo wrote:
Pullrod wrote: If a team wants to thrive, he is simply the last guy among the World champions to hire.
.
Which is why he is the highest paid driver in the sport and Mclaren just rehired him after the drama of 2007. Spot on you are.
Feel free to revisit my comments in 1 year or 2.
Alonso will either trash Button or will be beaten and will leave the team.

I have seen many F1 seasons to conclude that he has the "wrong"(for the team not for himself) tools to transform a team.
It's like I(Alonso) ask my boss to buy a particular obscure(to my colleagues/teammate) software to do state of the art design.

I remember the Monaco GP (2011 or 2012 I don't remember) where Massa was so close to Alonso in the first laps(with other cars behind) and wanted to overtake, but Alonso asked(via his race engineer) him to stay put because he was driving slower on purpose for his strategy.
It may seem obvious but just to reiterate, Alonso is a driver. Not a team principal or designer. Either way, you are going to have to be more specific.

I call BS on the Monaco story unless you can provide radio transcripts. It's virtually impossible to overtake in Monaco anyway.

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mcdo
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Re: Massa comments on Fernando, Kimi, Vettel

Post by mcdo »

Blake wrote:Can someone please tell me what was in Massa's comments that justifies 3 pages of what a poor driver Massa was? This is ridiculously gone off on a tangent... and for no good reason that I can see.
Pinch of salt and such. Only one of Alonso and Raikkonen made Massa look absolutely dire, his performance against both will understandably come into question

And when someone brings up the head injury I strongly disagree
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Re: Massa comments on Fernando, Kimi, Vettel

Post by Need4Naiim »

What i find rather unique about Massa's career is his teammate list:

# Nick Heidfeld
# Giancarlo Fisichella
# Jacques Villeneuve
# Michael Schumacher
# Kimi Raikkonen
# Fernando Alonso
# Valtteri Bottas

I wish he will write something about his teammates driving styles and their best strengths in a published book or on his website.
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Re: Massa comments on Fernando, Kimi, Vettel

Post by mds »

Exo wrote:
spronkey wrote: I'm not sure I agree. The person driving the Ferrari last year didn't look like Kimi Raikkonen,
Remove Alonso as his team mate and nobody would be saying it and just blaming the car.
Uh, no. Lots of people have been saying before 2014 that Kimi never looked like he did at McLaren. It's my personal opinion as well and I've said that around here too. During his years at Lotus he looked solid but never megafast. Same for his period at Ferrari.
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Re: Massa comments on Fernando, Kimi, Vettel

Post by Blake »

Need4Naiim wrote:What i find rather unique about Massa's career is his teammate list:

# Nick Heidfeld
# Giancarlo Fisichella
# Jacques Villeneuve
# Michael Schumacher
# Kimi Raikkonen
# Fernando Alonso
# Valtteri Bottas

I wish he will write something about his teammates driving styles and their best strengths in a published book or on his website.
True...

Name any other driver who has paired with drivers who had won 10 WDCs... yet he gets little if any respect in here. Massa has been a much better than average driver for most of his career... not Schumi,or Alonso level, but then neither has any other driver this century either. Yet he comments on drivers he raced with and the thread turns into a Massa, tbe driver, bashfest?
:(
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Re: Massa comments on Fernando, Kimi, Vettel

Post by Honda Quick »

Yeah, the Massa bashing on this site is pretty bad. I've stated in another thread a while ago that no other driver (possibly in the entire history of F1) has had the strength of teammates that he has had. Even though he's not Schumi / Alonso level, he still leaves most other open-wheel racers on earth eating smoke.
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Lt. Drebin
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Re: Massa comments on Fernando, Kimi, Vettel

Post by Lt. Drebin »

I really hope Massa get's another victory. Or even.... let me dream a big dream... WDC! He deserves it IMHO.
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Re: Massa comments on Fernando, Kimi, Vettel

Post by Jomox »

He's not at the level of Hamilton or Alonso no, but he's a bloody good driver. He's been with most of the best of the latest generations. He's experienced it all (Apart from that WDC) and knows with experience what each one of his team mate's is like on and off the track, but also how they are in a team with how they adapt the team around them.

He's commenting on first hand personal experience of inside knowledge of the drivers, and spending a good amount of time with Ferrari. It's not something you can just brush of as null.

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Re: Massa comments on Fernando, Kimi, Vettel

Post by LKS1 »

Blake wrote:
Need4Naiim wrote:What i find rather unique about Massa's career is his teammate list:

# Nick Heidfeld
# Giancarlo Fisichella
# Jacques Villeneuve
# Michael Schumacher
# Kimi Raikkonen
# Fernando Alonso
# Valtteri Bottas

I wish he will write something about his teammates driving styles and their best strengths in a published book or on his website.
True...

Name any other driver who has paired with drivers who had won 10 WDCs... yet he gets little if any respect in here. Massa has been a much better than average driver for most of his career... not Schumi,or Alonso level, but then neither has any other driver this century either. Yet he comments on drivers he raced with and the thread turns into a Massa, tbe driver, bashfest?
:(
:thumbup: to both Blake and Need4Naim posts.

I hope Massa will write a book/article giving his views on team-mates' driving styles/strengths etc. when he retires.

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Re: Massa comments on Fernando, Kimi, Vettel

Post by pokerman »

A2jdl wrote:
spronkey wrote:
JMILAT wrote:In F1 when it comes to drivers emotion tends to overtake logic even by the bosses themselves. The only area I can see Raikkonen doing better next year is having a different benchmark which will be an illusion more than anything else. Lets be clear Raikkonen did not always perform to his potential in 2014, but it's really wild imaginations to suggest he would have got anywhere near Alonso anyway.

And whilst Vettel has had lots of success I'm not sure how relevant it is to Ferrari at the moment. All his success came in a great car, something Ferrari certainly seem to be lacking at the moment. If Vettel is to really prove his class he will dominate Raikkonen. We should not buy into the car suiting Raikkonen better, since 2007 happy or sad Raikkonen looks a several tenths short of drivers like Alonso.
I'm not sure I agree. The person driving the Ferrari last year didn't look like Kimi Raikkonen, and the only thing you can put that down to is a car that just didn't work for the guy.

Despite that, when you remove incidents of bad luck (Monaco, those Magnussen crashes), add in the fact that the pack was much tighter than when Fernando and Felipe were racing together, in many races last year there wasn't actually that much to choose between Kimi and Fernando.

The main differences seemed to stem from Fernando being able to overtake, which again, comes down to confidence in the car.

Watching video from these practices it's clear that Kimi is *much* more comfortable in this car - the whole way he is driving has changed, back to how he was at Lotus.
Did you just say there wasn't much to choose between kimi and fernando 8O
I think that is called the power of positive thinking
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Re: Massa comments on Fernando, Kimi, Vettel

Post by pokerman »

spronkey wrote:
JMILAT wrote:Kimi scored only about 1 third of Alonso's points. I agree he should do better than this, at least closer to half. We should remember that other than 2010, a season which Alonso made many mistakes, Massa never scored half of Alonso's points either though.

And we know Massa is pretty much as good as Kimi. Grosjean's performance at Lotus where over one lap he was basically as fast as Raikkonen also suggests that Lotus really had a very good car. It would make sense too that Raikkonen despite the impressive results was ultimately still a Massa level driver. Drivers don't really just gain chunks of speed, not one at Raikkonen's age and not one who had just had 2 years off racing.

In other words at Ferrari Raikkonen actually looked pretty much what you would expect against Alonso.
Without the incidents, and normalising to include Alonso's failings as well, Kimi would be at around 60-70% of Alonso's points. Given how close the field was, a small difference between the two on the track resulted in a large points difference. Race after race the two were running one after another, only to be split by 4-5 cars at the pit stops. Kimi typically had the upper hand when the car was heavy, and Fernando typically had the upper hand when the car was light.

I also disagree that Massa is pretty much as good as Kimi. Again, if you go by points, sure. But if you look at the actual on track racing, it was very clear that Kimi was a better driver than Felipe throughout all 2.5 years at Ferrari. He was much more confident with overtaking, made fewer errors, managed the car much better during races etc. He just didn't translate that into points.

I'm not saying that Alonso isn't a better driver overall than Kimi - he may very well be - but the points scored last year didn't tell the full story at all.
I think that Massa was very much the equal of Kimi and you can't really point to one driver having worse luck than the other
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Re: Massa comments on Fernando, Kimi, Vettel

Post by pokerman »

Pullrod wrote:
Exo wrote:
Pullrod wrote: If a team wants to thrive, he is simply the last guy among the World champions to hire.
.
Which is why he is the highest paid driver in the sport and Mclaren just rehired him after the drama of 2007. Spot on you are.
Feel free to revisit my comments in 1 year or 2.
Alonso will either trash Button or will be beaten and will leave the team.

I have seen many F1 seasons to conclude that he has the "wrong"(for the team not for himself) tools to transform a team.
It's like I(Alonso) ask my boss to buy a particular obscure(to my colleagues/teammate) software to do state of the art design.

I remember the Monaco GP (2011 or 2012 I don't remember) where Massa was so close to Alonso in the first laps(with other cars behind) and wanted to overtake, but Alonso asked(via his race engineer) him to stay put because he was driving slower on purpose for his strategy.
Yes he was managing his tyres and then when he finally put his foot down he left Massa for dead
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Re: Massa comments on Fernando, Kimi, Vettel

Post by pokerman »

Blake wrote:
Need4Naiim wrote:What i find rather unique about Massa's career is his teammate list:

# Nick Heidfeld
# Giancarlo Fisichella
# Jacques Villeneuve
# Michael Schumacher
# Kimi Raikkonen
# Fernando Alonso
# Valtteri Bottas

I wish he will write something about his teammates driving styles and their best strengths in a published book or on his website.
True...

Name any other driver who has paired with drivers who had won 10 WDCs... yet he gets little if any respect in here. Massa has been a much better than average driver for most of his career... not Schumi,or Alonso level, but then neither has any other driver this century either. Yet he comments on drivers he raced with and the thread turns into a Massa, tbe driver, bashfest?
:(
Well to be fair he has had 7 teammates 4 of which were world champions, and 5 of his teammates had the beating of him which includes 3 none world champions, it's not exactly a stellar record
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Re: Massa comments on Fernando, Kimi, Vettel

Post by LKS1 »

pokerman wrote:
Pullrod wrote:
Exo wrote:
Pullrod wrote: If a team wants to thrive, he is simply the last guy among the World champions to hire.
.
Which is why he is the highest paid driver in the sport and Mclaren just rehired him after the drama of 2007. Spot on you are.
Feel free to revisit my comments in 1 year or 2.
Alonso will either trash Button or will be beaten and will leave the team.

I have seen many F1 seasons to conclude that he has the "wrong"(for the team not for himself) tools to transform a team.
It's like I(Alonso) ask my boss to buy a particular obscure(to my colleagues/teammate) software to do state of the art design.

I remember the Monaco GP (2011 or 2012 I don't remember) where Massa was so close to Alonso in the first laps(with other cars behind) and wanted to overtake, but Alonso asked(via his race engineer) him to stay put because he was driving slower on purpose for his strategy.
Yes he was managing his tyres and then when he finally put his foot down he left Massa for dead
I can't recall the incident in question (Massa asking to overtake, but being denied as Alonso was deliberately driving slowly for the sake of his strategy/tyres) - so would appreciate links.

If it is true, then Alonso could have let Massa overtake and 'left him for dead when he finally put his foot down' - there was no need to ruin Massa's race.

I do recall however that Massa was better than Alonso at a couple of races at the end of '12, necessitating Massa to help Alonso in at least one race.

Alonso is clearly a better driver than Massa, as Massa can be v fast, but also v inconsistent. IMO Massa becomes even more inconsistent/un-motivated when he knows that regardless of the circumstances, he will not be allowed to overtake or defend against his team mate.

IIRC, he only became motivated again (after an appalling '11 and beginning of '12) when he had been sacked by Ferrari and was looking for another seat...

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Re: Massa comments on Fernando, Kimi, Vettel

Post by ReservoirDog »

Blake wrote:
Need4Naiim wrote:What i find rather unique about Massa's career is his teammate list:

# Nick Heidfeld
# Giancarlo Fisichella
# Jacques Villeneuve
# Michael Schumacher
# Kimi Raikkonen
# Fernando Alonso
# Valtteri Bottas

I wish he will write something about his teammates driving styles and their best strengths in a published book or on his website.
True...

Name any other driver who has paired with drivers who had won 10 WDCs... yet he gets little if any respect in here. Massa has been a much better than average driver for most of his career... not Schumi,or Alonso level, but then neither has any other driver this century either. Yet he comments on drivers he raced with and the thread turns into a Massa, tbe driver, bashfest?
:(
Um what? Massa should get respect because of the achievements of his teammates?

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Re: Massa comments on Fernando, Kimi, Vettel

Post by mds »

LKS1 wrote:I do recall however that Massa was better than Alonso at a couple of races at the end of '12, necessitating Massa to help Alonso in at least one race.
Massa was a brilliant wingman in Brazil '12. Amazing stuff really.
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Re: Massa comments on Fernando, Kimi, Vettel

Post by Exo »

Pullrod wrote: Feel free to revisit my comments in 1 year or 2.
Alonso will either trash Button or will be beaten and will leave the team.

I have seen many F1 seasons to conclude that he has the "wrong"(for the team not for himself) tools to transform a team.
It's like I(Alonso) ask my boss to buy a particular obscure(to my colleagues/teammate) software to do state of the art design.

I remember the Monaco GP (2011 or 2012 I don't remember) where Massa was so close to Alonso in the first laps(with other cars behind) and wanted to overtake, but Alonso asked(via his race engineer) him to stay put because he was driving slower on purpose for his strategy.
Strange how none of the team bosses have seen what you seen, and make him the highest paid driver on the grid. What makes alonso has the wrong tools to transform a team? I don't remember that monaco thing, you are just making it up.

Exo
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Re: Massa comments on Fernando, Kimi, Vettel

Post by Exo »

mds wrote:
Exo wrote:
spronkey wrote: I'm not sure I agree. The person driving the Ferrari last year didn't look like Kimi Raikkonen,
Remove Alonso as his team mate and nobody would be saying it and just blaming the car.
Uh, no. Lots of people have been saying before 2014 that Kimi never looked like he did at McLaren. It's my personal opinion as well and I've said that around here too. During his years at Lotus he looked solid but never megafast. Same for his period at Ferrari.
Can you define how you measure this?

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mds
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Re: Massa comments on Fernando, Kimi, Vettel

Post by mds »

Exo wrote:
mds wrote:
Exo wrote:
spronkey wrote: I'm not sure I agree. The person driving the Ferrari last year didn't look like Kimi Raikkonen,
Remove Alonso as his team mate and nobody would be saying it and just blaming the car.
Uh, no. Lots of people have been saying before 2014 that Kimi never looked like he did at McLaren. It's my personal opinion as well and I've said that around here too. During his years at Lotus he looked solid but never megafast. Same for his period at Ferrari.
Can you define how you measure this?
Not really, no. It would be easy if we could just measure and standardize driver performances, and we would never have to have this kind of discussions :)

Basically since his McLaren-days he's always seemed somewhat different to me. That didn't change after his comeback. Lots of people were praising him as well, but I could never agree. He just seemed slower than he used to be.
Go Vandoorne :( - Verstappen - Vettel!

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Re: Massa comments on Fernando, Kimi, Vettel

Post by davidheath461 »

LKS1 wrote:
Alonso is clearly a better driver than Massa, as Massa can be v fast, but also v inconsistent. IMO Massa becomes even more inconsistent/un-motivated when he knows that regardless of the circumstances, he will not be allowed to overtake or defend against his team mate.
Sure, but that was not the case at Ferrari.

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Re: Massa comments on Fernando, Kimi, Vettel

Post by davidheath461 »

Exo wrote:
Pullrod wrote: Feel free to revisit my comments in 1 year or 2.
Alonso will either trash Button or will be beaten and will leave the team.

I have seen many F1 seasons to conclude that he has the "wrong"(for the team not for himself) tools to transform a team.
It's like I(Alonso) ask my boss to buy a particular obscure(to my colleagues/teammate) software to do state of the art design.

I remember the Monaco GP (2011 or 2012 I don't remember) where Massa was so close to Alonso in the first laps(with other cars behind) and wanted to overtake, but Alonso asked(via his race engineer) him to stay put because he was driving slower on purpose for his strategy.
Strange how none of the team bosses have seen what you seen, and make him the highest paid driver on the grid. What makes alonso has the wrong tools to transform a team? I don't remember that monaco thing, you are just making it up.
:thumbup: Funny how Pullrod makes these wild claims about Alonso, yet when he is asked to back up his opinions with evidence, he is unable to provide anything.

I think many Alonso detractors ae struggling to criticize him based on his driving, so they must go down a different avenue. This other avenue seems to be holding Alonso responsible for designing the under par Ferrari cars. Pathetic really.

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Re: Massa comments on Fernando, Kimi, Vettel

Post by LKS1 »

mds wrote:
Exo wrote:
mds wrote:
Exo wrote:
spronkey wrote: I'm not sure I agree. The person driving the Ferrari last year didn't look like Kimi Raikkonen,
Remove Alonso as his team mate and nobody would be saying it and just blaming the car.
Uh, no. Lots of people have been saying before 2014 that Kimi never looked like he did at McLaren. It's my personal opinion as well and I've said that around here too. During his years at Lotus he looked solid but never megafast. Same for his period at Ferrari.
Can you define how you measure this?
Not really, no. It would be easy if we could just measure and standardize driver performances, and we would never have to have this kind of discussions :)

Basically since his McLaren-days he's always seemed somewhat different to me. That didn't change after his comeback. Lots of people were praising him as well, but I could never agree. He just seemed slower than he used to be.
:thumbup: During Kimi's Mclaren days he was considered to be one of the top drivers on the grid and possibly the fastest. The only question mark against him was whether he was a car breaker.

His reputation has gone downhill ever since he left Mclaren, although it rose briefly when he joined Lotus after a 2 year absence - only to nosedive again at the end of the following year when RoGro performed better - followed by his disastrous 2014.

But none of this changes the fact that he was a top driver in his Mclaren days.

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Re: Massa comments on Fernando, Kimi, Vettel

Post by ReservoirDog »

mds wrote:
Exo wrote:
mds wrote:
Exo wrote:
spronkey wrote: I'm not sure I agree. The person driving the Ferrari last year didn't look like Kimi Raikkonen,
Remove Alonso as his team mate and nobody would be saying it and just blaming the car.
Uh, no. Lots of people have been saying before 2014 that Kimi never looked like he did at McLaren. It's my personal opinion as well and I've said that around here too. During his years at Lotus he looked solid but never megafast. Same for his period at Ferrari.
Can you define how you measure this?
Not really, no. It would be easy if we could just measure and standardize driver performances, and we would never have to have this kind of discussions :)

Basically since his McLaren-days he's always seemed somewhat different to me. That didn't change after his comeback. Lots of people were praising him as well, but I could never agree. He just seemed slower than he used to be.
I got the same exact feeling. There's obviously no scientific way to prove it, but it was just a feel.

Pullrod
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Re: Massa comments on Fernando, Kimi, Vettel

Post by Pullrod »

Exo wrote:
Pullrod wrote: Feel free to revisit my comments in 1 year or 2.
Alonso will either trash Button or will be beaten and will leave the team.

I have seen many F1 seasons to conclude that he has the "wrong"(for the team not for himself) tools to transform a team.
It's like I(Alonso) ask my boss to buy a particular obscure(to my colleagues/teammate) software to do state of the art design.

I remember the Monaco GP (2011 or 2012 I don't remember) where Massa was so close to Alonso in the first laps(with other cars behind) and wanted to overtake, but Alonso asked(via his race engineer) him to stay put because he was driving slower on purpose for his strategy.
Strange how none of the team bosses have seen what you seen, and make him the highest paid driver on the grid. What makes alonso has the wrong tools to transform a team? I don't remember that monaco thing, you are just making it up.
You should pay more attention during races, and if you read the thread someone else remember what happened.
_

He has the wrong tools in the sense that his team mates usually perform worse(not only in terms of points) than the seasons before.
You are OK if Ferrari "back" the lead driver and you are surprised why the difference(it will only grow) in points between the drivers is so big and the other ends up demotivated?

Alonso minds his own business and he is the best at it, but in all the seasons he has been in F1 I can not recall an instance when he tranformed his team, if anything the opposite.

Talking about Ferrari, everybody bash them like they owed Alonso something.
But people tend to forget that Alonso enjoyed the best reliability, support, strategies of all the world champions on the grid but still failed to win the WDC and "elevate" his teammate.

Hamilton was "lucky" in the sense that he was driving for McLaren(known for their equality) and he knew Ron Dennis. Has he started in Ferrari with Alonso, he would have ended up with not much to show despite his obvious talent(and he is not the only one).

pokerman
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Re: Massa comments on Fernando, Kimi, Vettel

Post by pokerman »

LKS1 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Pullrod wrote:
Exo wrote:
Pullrod wrote: If a team wants to thrive, he is simply the last guy among the World champions to hire.
.
Which is why he is the highest paid driver in the sport and Mclaren just rehired him after the drama of 2007. Spot on you are.
Feel free to revisit my comments in 1 year or 2.
Alonso will either trash Button or will be beaten and will leave the team.

I have seen many F1 seasons to conclude that he has the "wrong"(for the team not for himself) tools to transform a team.
It's like I(Alonso) ask my boss to buy a particular obscure(to my colleagues/teammate) software to do state of the art design.

I remember the Monaco GP (2011 or 2012 I don't remember) where Massa was so close to Alonso in the first laps(with other cars behind) and wanted to overtake, but Alonso asked(via his race engineer) him to stay put because he was driving slower on purpose for his strategy.
Yes he was managing his tyres and then when he finally put his foot down he left Massa for dead
I can't recall the incident in question (Massa asking to overtake, but being denied as Alonso was deliberately driving slowly for the sake of his strategy/tyres) - so would appreciate links.

If it is true, then Alonso could have let Massa overtake and 'left him for dead when he finally put his foot down' - there was no need to ruin Massa's race.

I do recall however that Massa was better than Alonso at a couple of races at the end of '12, necessitating Massa to help Alonso in at least one race.

Alonso is clearly a better driver than Massa, as Massa can be v fast, but also v inconsistent. IMO Massa becomes even more inconsistent/un-motivated when he knows that regardless of the circumstances, he will not be allowed to overtake or defend against his team mate.

IIRC, he only became motivated again (after an appalling '11 and beginning of '12) when he had been sacked by Ferrari and was looking for another seat...
I don't see how that could have ruined Massa's race as basically you can not overtake at Monaco, the tyres have a certain resource and conversely sitting behind Alonso would have helped to stop Massa burning out his tyres too quickly one might think?
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Re: Massa comments on Fernando, Kimi, Vettel

Post by pokerman »

mds wrote:
Exo wrote:
mds wrote:
Exo wrote:
spronkey wrote: I'm not sure I agree. The person driving the Ferrari last year didn't look like Kimi Raikkonen,
Remove Alonso as his team mate and nobody would be saying it and just blaming the car.
Uh, no. Lots of people have been saying before 2014 that Kimi never looked like he did at McLaren. It's my personal opinion as well and I've said that around here too. During his years at Lotus he looked solid but never megafast. Same for his period at Ferrari.
Can you define how you measure this?
Not really, no. It would be easy if we could just measure and standardize driver performances, and we would never have to have this kind of discussions :)

Basically since his McLaren-days he's always seemed somewhat different to me. That didn't change after his comeback. Lots of people were praising him as well, but I could never agree. He just seemed slower than he used to be.
I think he was a different driver on the Michelin tyres
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Re: Massa comments on Fernando, Kimi, Vettel

Post by pokerman »

Pullrod wrote:
Exo wrote:
Pullrod wrote: Feel free to revisit my comments in 1 year or 2.
Alonso will either trash Button or will be beaten and will leave the team.

I have seen many F1 seasons to conclude that he has the "wrong"(for the team not for himself) tools to transform a team.
It's like I(Alonso) ask my boss to buy a particular obscure(to my colleagues/teammate) software to do state of the art design.

I remember the Monaco GP (2011 or 2012 I don't remember) where Massa was so close to Alonso in the first laps(with other cars behind) and wanted to overtake, but Alonso asked(via his race engineer) him to stay put because he was driving slower on purpose for his strategy.
Strange how none of the team bosses have seen what you seen, and make him the highest paid driver on the grid. What makes alonso has the wrong tools to transform a team? I don't remember that monaco thing, you are just making it up.
You should pay more attention during races, and if you read the thread someone else remember what happened.
_

He has the wrong tools in the sense that his team mates usually perform worse(not only in terms of points) than the seasons before.
You are OK if Ferrari "back" the lead driver and you are surprised why the difference(it will only grow) in points between the drivers is so big and the other ends up demotivated?

Alonso minds his own business and he is the best at it, but in all the seasons he has been in F1 I can not recall an instance when he tranformed his team, if anything the opposite.

Talking about Ferrari, everybody bash them like they owed Alonso something.
But people tend to forget that Alonso enjoyed the best reliability, support, strategies of all the world champions on the grid but still failed to win the WDC and "elevate" his teammate.

Hamilton was "lucky" in the sense that he was driving for McLaren(known for their equality) and he knew Ron Dennis. Has he started in Ferrari with Alonso, he would have ended up with not much to show despite his obvious talent(and he is not the only one).
The Alonso failure of 2010 was a chronic strategy call by Ferrari themselves
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Re: Massa comments on Fernando, Kimi, Vettel

Post by Honda Quick »

ReservoirDog wrote:
Um what? Massa should get respect because of the achievements of his teammates?
No one is giving Massa respect because of his teammates. We are giving him leeway due to the strength of his teammates he's had to face. No one else has ever had to overcome that many talented race and championship winners to get their own success. Massa's had it tough.

Massa should get respect for being quick and talented enough to forge a way into F1 in the first place - and still remain there - as should all (most?) drivers to do so. As Jackie Stewart once said, "It's not always possible to be the best in the world, but it is possible to always better your own performance." Massa isn't the best in the world - it seems there's only about 4 or 5 currently that might be able to be near enough to claim that title. But he's still good enough for F1. Respect that.
[ Kimi Raikkonen ]
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Covalent
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Re: Massa comments on Fernando, Kimi, Vettel

Post by Covalent »

LKS1 wrote: :thumbup: During Kimi's Mclaren days he was considered to be one of the top drivers on the grid and possibly the fastest. The only question mark against him was whether he was a car breaker.

His reputation has gone downhill ever since he left Mclaren, although it rose briefly when he joined Lotus after a 2 year absence - only to nosedive again at the end of the following year when RoGro performed better - followed by his disastrous 2014.

But none of this changes the fact that he was a top driver in his Mclaren days.
Neither did his reputation nosedive (he got the arguably most coveted seat in F1 the following year) nor did Grosjean perform better (Kimi comfortably beat him despite not even attending the last races) - but hey maybe two negatives makes a positive.

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