Massa comments on Fernando, Kimi, Vettel

Covalent · Post by **Covalent** » Tue Feb 24, 2015 5:06 pm

I found this bit of his Q&A interesting:

Q: This season has seen two big driver changes with Sebastian Vettel going to Ferrari and your old team mate Fernando Alonso going back to McLaren. Knowing the team as well as you do, how well do you expect Sebastian to adapt to life at Ferrari, and were you surprised to see Fernando leave the team?
FM: I think Fernando tried to leave the team two or three years ago, even when I was still at the team, but he couldn’t. I think maybe last year the car was not so good, the results were not there but he kept fighting, kept trying to change the team. But the team was already changing completely inside and they decided to change even Alonso. It’s a new team, but it’s a team you can never close your eyes to. Sebastian knows how to win - he’s won many championships - and I think Kimi will work much better without Fernando in the team. So maybe the team can work better. But they are also losing a fantastic driver in Fernando. He’s very quick and knows how to score a big amount of points during the championship. We need to wait and see if it’s better or worse.

http://www.formula1.com/news/interviews ... 16831.html

Post by **P-F1 Mod** » Tue Feb 24, 2015 5:08 pm

Source?

shoot999 · Post by **shoot999** » Tue Feb 24, 2015 5:16 pm

http://www.formula1.com/news/interviews ... 16831.html

Prema · Post by **Prema** » Tue Feb 24, 2015 5:18 pm

Massa's guessing this and that...

But it's good to see he is feeling upbeat.

And, well, it seems to me that he is having his own good self on his mind when saying "Kimi will work much better without Fernando in the team"...

Need4Naiim · Post by **Need4Naiim** » Tue Feb 24, 2015 5:29 pm

I don't want to sound rude, but Massa says nothing new. Even Q:A's smell similar to each other. Maybe JV's comments for new season will sound rather different.

FragNasty · Post by **FragNasty** » Tue Feb 24, 2015 6:22 pm

Political / Social insight into the ranks of Ferrari is always interesting. It seems complete devotion to a single driver (like Schumacher) is something of the past.

Translating back to portuguese and tying to get a more insightful take on Massa's view, an attempt to understand what he is insinuating as he will never come out and say something that would be a condemnation of his former team. What he is not saying, essentially my speculation, is:

Perhaps Massa's view is simply that "Fernando's" participation "clashes" with aspects how the team ought to work according to new ideals, perhaps in respect to Kimi, but more so with an ideology of the team being more important than the driver. So, when they restructured, management replaced people who participated and enabled this "ideological clash". I don't think Massa refers to Fernando as an individual, but rather a group devoted to Fernando's interests/results who are very likely to be responsible for makes strategic calls on the race day. "A panela do Fernando", so to speak.

For example, leaving a car out on track to dry after the tires are done, is a classic symptom of this "ideological clash" we witnessed with Massa in 2013; same old hat strategy that Kimi also endured last year.

This is as close to confirmation of that-all as we will ever get, IMO.

davidheath461 · Post by **davidheath461** » Tue Feb 24, 2015 6:33 pm

Well last year, Massa said that Alonso was in Kimi's head, or words to that effect, so these comments are not surprising.

Kimi's life should be easier this year for obvious reasons.

RunningMan · Post by **RunningMan** » Tue Feb 24, 2015 6:59 pm

I think the earliest Alonso could have wanted to leave was the end of 2012, with Red Bull his most likely preferred destination. He was certainly a bit flirtatious towards them but Red Bull were sticking firm with their Vettel-Webber partnership and their young driver programme. He could have been angling for a Mercedes move, but at the time, they seemed pretty intent on getting Hamilton, who was out of contract at the end of 2012, unlike Alonso who had a deal all the way through to 2016.

As for the part regarding "Kimi working better without Alonso" . That's abit of fuel to the fire IMO.

Black_Flag_11 · Post by **Black_Flag_11** » Tue Feb 24, 2015 8:19 pm

You have to wonder if when going up against Alonso demotivates a driver.

Going up against someone so good and without weakness, that you realise you simply can't beat, must take its toll on a driver mentally.

It will be interesting to see how it plays out with Button.

Covalent · Post by **Covalent** » Wed Feb 25, 2015 6:01 am

P-F1 Mod wrote:Source?

Sorry about the missing source (and thanks to shoot999 for providing it), I was going to write a longer OP overall (including the source obviously) but had a poop-related incident with my 2 month old son who was in my lap at the time.

mds · Post by **mds** » Wed Feb 25, 2015 7:15 am

Covalent wrote:
P-F1 Mod wrote:Source?
Sorry about the missing source (and thanks to shoot999 for providing it), I was going to write a longer OP overall (including the source obviously) but had a poop-related incident with my 2 month old son who was in my lap at the time.

That is the single best apology I have ever seen. And one that I can relate to

Also, congratulations!

Liket · Post by **Liket** » Wed Feb 25, 2015 7:30 am

Covalent wrote:
P-F1 Mod wrote:Source?
Sorry about the missing source (and thanks to shoot999 for providing it), I was going to write a longer OP overall (including the source obviously) but had a poop-related incident with my 2 month old son who was in my lap at the time.

It's a strange change in your outlook on life when you suddenly feel it's OK to be pooped on, isn't it? Congrats.

I found that part interesting as well, seems Felipe isn't too impressed with Fernando as a team mate, even though he obviously recognizes his driving ability.

Siao7 · Post by **Siao7** » Wed Feb 25, 2015 8:51 am

Covalent wrote:
P-F1 Mod wrote:Source?
Sorry about the missing source (and thanks to shoot999 for providing it), I was going to write a longer OP overall (including the source obviously) but had a poop-related incident with my 2 month old son who was in my lap at the time.

Code brown is always excused!

Covalent · Post by **Covalent** » Wed Feb 25, 2015 8:55 am

mds wrote: That is the single best apology I have ever seen. And one that I can relate to

Also, congratulations!

Liket wrote: It's a strange change in your outlook on life when you suddenly feel it's OK to be pooped on, isn't it? Congrats.

It sure is!
Thanks guys

Liket wrote: I found that part interesting as well, seems Felipe isn't too impressed with Fernando as a team mate, even though he obviously recognizes his driving ability.

My sentiments exactly

SILVAF0XX · Post by **SILVAF0XX** » Wed Feb 25, 2015 9:59 am

Covalent wrote:
P-F1 Mod wrote:Source?
Sorry about the missing source (and thanks to shoot999 for providing it), I was going to write a longer OP overall (including the source obviously) but had a poop-related incident with my 2 month old son who was in my lap at the time.

This made me smile as I have a 4 month old daughter and can relate only too well!!

I was surprised with the claim he wanted to leave 2-3 years ago - where did he want to go?

I know you can think Mercedes, but hamilton took a punt that they were going to be competitive and Lauda really spent time to convice him. Alonso really had no reason to think they were going to be quite as dominant as they were in 2014.

I think he likely wanted to go back to Mclaren... or more likely convince Red Bull to take him. He's a good friend of Webber though so would have had some insider knowledge I'm sure!

davidheath461 · Post by **davidheath461** » Wed Feb 25, 2015 10:19 am

Black_Flag_11 wrote:You have to wonder if when going up against Alonso demotivates a driver.

Going up against someone so good and without weakness, that you realise you simply can't beat, must take its toll on a driver mentally.

It will be interesting to see how it plays out with Button.

I think Massa or Smedley once said that it is very difficult to drive against Alonso simply because he has so few "off weekends".

Post by **P-F1 Mod** » Wed Feb 25, 2015 12:02 pm

Covalent wrote:
P-F1 Mod wrote:Source?
Sorry about the missing source (and thanks to shoot999 for providing it), I was going to write a longer OP overall (including the source obviously) but had a poop-related incident with my 2 month old son who was in my lap at the time.

I'm intrigued what the longer OP was going to be now.

Also I REALLY hope you weren't wearing white trousers at the time!

Fiki · Post by **Fiki** » Wed Feb 25, 2015 5:09 pm

Covalent wrote:
P-F1 Mod wrote:Source?
Sorry about the missing source (and thanks to shoot999 for providing it), I was going to write a longer OP overall (including the source obviously) but had a poop-related incident with my 2 month old son who was in my lap at the time.

Then, according to Prost, you should have waved the brown flag!

j man · Post by **j man** » Wed Feb 25, 2015 7:01 pm

Need4Naiim wrote:I don't want to sound rude, but Massa says nothing new. Even Q:A's smell similar to each other. Maybe JV's comments for new season will sound rather different.

True. You're going to struggle to get an interesting interview from any F1 driver until after they've retired.

ob1kenobi.23 · Post by **ob1kenobi.23** » Wed Feb 25, 2015 9:40 pm

Mark Webber had his take on Seb's move to ferrari.

FORMER Formula 1 ace Mark Webber says his former Red Bull Racing rival and racing partner Sebastian Vettel will be better off for having left the team at the end of last season.Webber believes Vettel, with whom he had regular run-ins both on and off the track, had made his decision to switch teams a long time ago and as a result had lost his hunger for racing for Red Bull.

Time will tell whether the Red Bull will miss the experience of the German driver who won 38 F1 races with the team.

“Seb’s not a silly guy and he realised that he needed fresh motivation and a new change and I think the decision was made very early, probably before the season even started to be honest,” Webber said.

“The line is not ‘they won’t miss Vettel’, the line is that when he wants to do something else and be in a different environment, then he is better off going somewhere he might feel he will get more out of himself.

“That’s definitely a question for the team halfway through the season, whether they are missing some of that experience.”[/b][/b]

http://www.foxsports.com.au/motor-sport ... 7237485030?

mysticjim · Post by **mysticjim** » Thu Feb 26, 2015 12:15 am

I think it's so hard to tell when a driver appears to 'fail' in a car, either overall or against a team-mate, whether it's mental or physical.

Everyone here seems to rate Alonso's mental toughness, consistency and his ability to 'break' his team-mates down mentally, but it didn't happen that way the last time he was at McLaren. I suspect it was more his clashes and frustration with the team at the time rather than Hamilton dominating him.

Alonso definitely had Massa in his pocket at Ferrari, but Massa has never been quite the same driver since his accident, even last season we only saw flashes of his pre-accident ability.

And as for Kimi, and I guess Vettel last season. The Ferrari was awful but Alonso is very adaptable and got as much as anyone could possibly expect from it, whereas Kimi seemed to simply be unable to drive it, his style simply didn't work in it at all. With Vettel, the success came from his ability to take the slower corners quickly, and the pre2014 Red Bulls that he was so successful in seemed to enhance his style. The 2014 car definitely seemed to adhere more to Ricciardo's more aggressive style. I reckon Webber would have beaten Vettel in that car if he'd have stuck around. I can only surmise that Vettel didn't believe future RB designs were going to suit him either, whereas the Ferrari might. Both Vettel and Kimi do look a hell of a lot happier this season after the first two tests.

Chunky · Post by **Chunky** » Thu Feb 26, 2015 8:01 am

It's so refreshing when Massa gives us his views on what he thought might have been the case and what he might have dreamt about while having a nap in the trailer.

Usually it's a Scumacher / Kimi / Hamilton / Vettel / Alonso fan who's insisting that the world is flat and that the evidence is plain to see.

p.s. Massa hasn't failed to return to his pre-crash form. He was never that good, other than as a one lap driver. He just had a nearly lucky year and blew it in a car that made him look good.

.

mcdo · Post by **mcdo** » Thu Feb 26, 2015 8:18 am

mysticjim wrote:Alonso definitely had Massa in his pocket at Ferrari, but Massa has never been quite the same driver since his accident, even last season we only saw flashes of his pre-accident ability.

I don't believe this. Massa is the same driver he ever was

Siao7 · Post by **Siao7** » Thu Feb 26, 2015 8:37 am

mcdo wrote:
mysticjim wrote:Alonso definitely had Massa in his pocket at Ferrari, but Massa has never been quite the same driver since his accident, even last season we only saw flashes of his pre-accident ability.
I don't believe this. Massa is the same driver he ever was

Yeap. The very first few races when he came back and he was leading the WDC. He was running at the front at the winter tests too (if anything is to be taken by the winter tests). He didn't lose anything from his racecraft. The problem is that his racecraft was never a WDC's one...

mds · Post by **mds** » Thu Feb 26, 2015 9:00 am

SchumieRules wrote:
mcdo wrote:
mysticjim wrote:Alonso definitely had Massa in his pocket at Ferrari, but Massa has never been quite the same driver since his accident, even last season we only saw flashes of his pre-accident ability.
I don't believe this. Massa is the same driver he ever was
Yeap. The very first few races when he came back and he was leading the WDC.

First race: Alonso quite easily had the measure of Massa on Sunday.
Second race: Alonso has a first corner incident with Button, spins, and has to recover from the back of the field. Alonso catches up to Massa by mid-race. But in 2010 it wasn't easy to pass the same car.
Third race: gearbox problems all race for Alonso, then his engine blew.
Fourth race: Alonso finishes 5 places up on Massa
Fifth race: Alonso finishes 4 places up on Massa
Sixth race: Alonso starting from pit lane

I'm not sure you can pull conclusions from this. His teammate, being the prime benchmark, was faster in 3 races, faster but couldn't pass in a fourth, had mechanical problems in a fifth and started from the back in a sixth. How could one really gauge Massa's performance level?

Siao7 · Post by **Siao7** » Thu Feb 26, 2015 9:23 am

I wasn't alluding that he was better than Alonso my friend. All I was saying is that he wasn't as bad as people making it seem when he came back from the accident, he was right at the front line. Alonso was always faster, there is no comparison. But Massa wasn't a slouch either post-accident.

mds · Post by **mds** » Thu Feb 26, 2015 10:09 am

SchumieRules wrote:I wasn't alluding that he was better than Alonso my friend. All I was saying is that he wasn't as bad as people making it seem when he came back from the accident, he was right at the front line. Alonso was always faster, there is no comparison. But Massa wasn't a slouch either post-accident.

I'm not saying that you were alluding to him being better. My point was that any comparison is hard to draw - either Alonso was a fair bit quicker or he had problems. So how could you say Massa was as good then as he was before? What measure do you use? Just by virtue of him leading the WDC standings - even taken into account others had suffered problems (like Alonso and Vettel)?

Siao7 · Post by **Siao7** » Thu Feb 26, 2015 10:34 am

mds wrote:
SchumieRules wrote:I wasn't alluding that he was better than Alonso my friend. All I was saying is that he wasn't as bad as people making it seem when he came back from the accident, he was right at the front line. Alonso was always faster, there is no comparison. But Massa wasn't a slouch either post-accident.
I'm not saying that you were alluding to him being better. My point was that any comparison is hard to draw - either Alonso was a fair bit quicker or he had problems. So how could you say Massa was as good then as he was before? What measure do you use? Just by virtue of him leading the WDC standings - even taken into account others had suffered problems (like Alonso and Vettel)?

It's the same thing as the poster saying that Massa wasn't the same as before: how do you prove it?

You can't, but what points to the fact that he didn't lose his speed is that he was driving fast up at the front end. He was close (well, the closest of their tenure together) to his super team-mate that year. He was still faster in Turkey and matched Alonso in GB. After Germany his performance dropped, but we know all about that already...

mds · Post by **mds** » Thu Feb 26, 2015 11:16 am

SchumieRules wrote: It's the same thing as the poster saying that Massa wasn't the same as before: how do you prove it?

You don't, it's all opinion at this point. The fact we're debating it five years later proves that

but what points to the fact that he didn't lose his speed is that he was driving fast up at the front end.

But that's not an indication of not losing speed... Maybe pre-2010 Massa could have driven that car half a second faster.

He was close (well, the closest of their tenure together) to his super team-mate that year. He was still faster in Turkey and matched Alonso in GB.

GB => hard to compare what with Massa's puncture and Alonso's passing controversy.
Turkey => OK, so that's one race.

mcdo · Post by **mcdo** » Thu Feb 26, 2015 11:48 am

SchumieRules wrote:
mcdo wrote:
mysticjim wrote:Alonso definitely had Massa in his pocket at Ferrari, but Massa has never been quite the same driver since his accident, even last season we only saw flashes of his pre-accident ability.
I don't believe this. Massa is the same driver he ever was
Yeap. The very first few races when he came back and he was leading the WDC. He was running at the front at the winter tests too (if anything is to be taken by the winter tests). He didn't lose anything from his racecraft. The problem is that his racecraft was never a WDC's one...

Bingo

davidheath461 · Post by **davidheath461** » Thu Feb 26, 2015 11:56 am

Massa wasn't that great pre accident either. He just had a great car in 06, 07 and 08.

davidheath461 · Post by **davidheath461** » Thu Feb 26, 2015 12:02 pm

mds wrote:
SchumieRules wrote: It's the same thing as the poster saying that Massa wasn't the same as before: how do you prove it?
You don't, it's all opinion at this point. The fact we're debating it five years later proves that

The fact that 5 years later and Massa is still in F1 and with a pretty good team probably indicates that the accident had little to no effect on his speed.

Being Alonso's teammate can make you look slow - just ask Kimi.

LKS1 · Post by **LKS1** » Thu Feb 26, 2015 12:47 pm

The whole point of this thread was about Massa's comments re Alonso, Kimi and Vettel.

Massa proved that he is a team player at Ferrari as he only ever praised his team mates - which is why I find his comments now he has left Ferrari interesting.

Even so, he's still driving in F1 and every driver or ex-driver has their own agenda/biases.

In short, his comments are interesting (and confirm my thoughts

), but can't be taken as gospel.

LKS1 · Post by **LKS1** » Thu Feb 26, 2015 12:54 pm

davidheath461 wrote:Massa wasn't that great pre accident either. He just had a great car in 06, 07 and 08.

So did Lewis in '07 and '08.

We can argue until the cows come home as to whether the Ferrari or Mclaren were better that year - but either way, they were the two best cars in those seasons.

Maybe the Ferrari was slightly better in '08 (although I'm not convinced), but Lewis only just beat Massa that season.

LKS1 · Post by **LKS1** » Thu Feb 26, 2015 1:03 pm

davidheath461 wrote:
mds wrote:
SchumieRules wrote: It's the same thing as the poster saying that Massa wasn't the same as before: how do you prove it?
You don't, it's all opinion at this point. The fact we're debating it five years later proves that

The fact that 5 years later and Massa is still in F1 and with a pretty good team probably indicates that the accident had little to no effect on his speed.

Being Alonso's teammate can make you look slow - just ask Kimi.

Quite possibly true, but Alonso was v clearly the No. 1 at Ferrari - and it is odd how Massa was 'thereabouts' with Alonso during '10, and performed woefully thereafter. Personally, I don't think it had anything to do with his accident - he just lost motivation when it was made clear that he was the No. 2 driver. Edit - and before anyone accuses me of bias, yes he was clearly the No. 2 in '06 - but it was his first year at the team, and I can't recall any team orders being issued. They weren't necessary or requested by Schumi.

As for Kimi - I've said frequently that he was great at Mclaren, but not so great at Ferrari. I can only assume that he has a narrow window and the Mclaren suited him, whereas the Ferrari never has suited him.

mcdo · Post by **mcdo** » Thu Feb 26, 2015 1:52 pm

LKS1 wrote:
davidheath461 wrote:Massa wasn't that great pre accident either. He just had a great car in 06, 07 and 08.
So did Lewis in '07 and '08.

We can argue until the cows come home as to whether the Ferrari or Mclaren were better that year - but either way, they were the two best cars in those seasons.

Maybe the Ferrari was slightly better in '08 (although I'm not convinced), but Lewis only just beat Massa that season.

I wouldn't rate it as one of Lewis' better seasons. The FIA were a joke that year too

LKS1 · Post by **LKS1** » Thu Feb 26, 2015 2:09 pm

mcdo wrote:
LKS1 wrote:
davidheath461 wrote:Massa wasn't that great pre accident either. He just had a great car in 06, 07 and 08.
So did Lewis in '07 and '08.

We can argue until the cows come home as to whether the Ferrari or Mclaren were better that year - but either way, they were the two best cars in those seasons.

Maybe the Ferrari was slightly better in '08 (although I'm not convinced), but Lewis only just beat Massa that season.
I wouldn't rate it as one of Lewis' better seasons. The FIA were a joke that year too

Or maybe the FIA decided to take a stance on Lewis' 'back off or crash' moves and the leniency shown towards him in '07? The crane incident springs to mind as well as the farce of Alonso's penalty after Hungary (?) '07 quali.

But now I too am veering way off topic!

mds · Post by **mds** » Thu Feb 26, 2015 2:10 pm

davidheath461 wrote:
mds wrote:
SchumieRules wrote: It's the same thing as the poster saying that Massa wasn't the same as before: how do you prove it?
You don't, it's all opinion at this point. The fact we're debating it five years later proves that

The fact that 5 years later and Massa is still in F1 and with a pretty good team probably indicates that the accident had little to no effect on his speed.

It doesn't indicate that at all. And just to illustrate that: take the fastest driver in F1, make him lose .2s through slightly lesser reflexes and he'll still be fit for F1. But maybe not the fastest anymore.

Not that I'm saying Massa was the fastest in F1 before, just making the point that that particular reasoning doesn't fly.

mcdo · Post by **mcdo** » Thu Feb 26, 2015 2:15 pm

LKS1 wrote:
mcdo wrote:
LKS1 wrote:
davidheath461 wrote:Massa wasn't that great pre accident either. He just had a great car in 06, 07 and 08.
So did Lewis in '07 and '08.

We can argue until the cows come home as to whether the Ferrari or Mclaren were better that year - but either way, they were the two best cars in those seasons.

Maybe the Ferrari was slightly better in '08 (although I'm not convinced), but Lewis only just beat Massa that season.
I wouldn't rate it as one of Lewis' better seasons. The FIA were a joke that year too
Or maybe the FIA decided to take a stance on Lewis' 'back off or crash' moves and the leniency shown towards him in '07? The crane incident springs to mind as well as the farce of Alonso's penalty after Hungary (?) '07 quali.

But now I too am veering way off topic!

I'm sure they had a 100 million reasons

LKS1 · Post by **LKS1** » Thu Feb 26, 2015 2:25 pm

mcdo wrote:
LKS1 wrote:
mcdo wrote:
LKS1 wrote:
davidheath461 wrote:Massa wasn't that great pre accident either. He just had a great car in 06, 07 and 08.
So did Lewis in '07 and '08.

We can argue until the cows come home as to whether the Ferrari or Mclaren were better that year - but either way, they were the two best cars in those seasons.

Maybe the Ferrari was slightly better in '08 (although I'm not convinced), but Lewis only just beat Massa that season.
I wouldn't rate it as one of Lewis' better seasons. The FIA were a joke that year too
Or maybe the FIA decided to take a stance on Lewis' 'back off or crash' moves and the leniency shown towards him in '07? The crane incident springs to mind as well as the farce of Alonso's penalty after Hungary (?) '07 quali.

But now I too am veering way off topic!
I'm sure they had a 100 million reasons

I'm missing the point of your post.

Lewis' penalties in '08 were justified, if harsh - and I've explained why I think this was the case.

Similarly, I've put forward my reasons why I think Massa's comments are interesting - if not to be taken as the entire truth.