Alonso crash/missing Melbourne [MERGED]

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minchy
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Re: Alonso crash/missing Melbourne [MERGED]

Post by minchy »

RaggedMan wrote:
Toby. wrote:The Eternal President of North America's F1 Conspiracy Theory Society is back at it again:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dhGEV5D5l6k
What. A. Loon.
You know he wouldn't be that bad (entertainment wise at least, not his theories) if he would just learn how to edit his videos to make them watchable without dying of boredom!
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Re: Alonso crash/missing Melbourne [MERGED]

Post by RaggedMan »

Millemagico wrote:As you noticed Flavio didnt rule out electric shock. Changing shift or braking during accident wont rule out that also. Muscles do funny things when you give some electric to them.
Also many people who have received shocks from stun gun, cant figure out what happened to them, if the shock was given from behind.

It seems that Mr. Dennis is pathetic liar and his credibility has reached "Putin level".
If it was a single shock he wouldn't hit the downshift paddle multiple times.
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Re: Alonso crash/missing Melbourne [MERGED]

Post by hk77 »

Does this mean that whenever Alonso, returns he will still have the 4 new engines for the season, or does he use the one that is being used by Magnussen?

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Re: Alonso crash/missing Melbourne [MERGED]

Post by mcdo »

hk77 wrote:Does this mean that whenever Alonso, returns he will still have the 4 new engines for the season, or does he use the one that is being used by Magnussen?
Same engine as Magnussen. I believe it's car-specific, not driver-specific
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Re: Alonso crash/missing Melbourne [MERGED]

Post by Prema »

mcdo wrote:
hk77 wrote:Does this mean that whenever Alonso, returns he will still have the 4 new engines for the season, or does he use the one that is being used by Magnussen?
Same engine as Magnussen. I believe it's car-specific, not driver-specific
Like, considering the car competitiveness, it would make any real difference to Alonso if 4 or 5..

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Re: Alonso crash/missing Melbourne [MERGED]

Post by mcdo »

Prema wrote:
mcdo wrote:
hk77 wrote:Does this mean that whenever Alonso, returns he will still have the 4 new engines for the season, or does he use the one that is being used by Magnussen?
Same engine as Magnussen. I believe it's car-specific, not driver-specific
Like, considering the car competitiveness, it would make any real difference to Alonso if 4 or 5..
I'm pretty sure he wouldn't want to be hit with grid penalties right around the time the McLaren is getting somewhat competitive (which is possible)
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Re: Alonso crash/missing Melbourne [MERGED]

Post by Prema »

mcdo wrote:
Prema wrote:
mcdo wrote:
hk77 wrote:Does this mean that whenever Alonso, returns he will still have the 4 new engines for the season, or does he use the one that is being used by Magnussen?
Same engine as Magnussen. I believe it's car-specific, not driver-specific
Like, considering the car competitiveness, it would make any real difference to Alonso if 4 or 5..
I'm pretty sure he wouldn't want to be hit with grid penalties right around the time the McLaren is getting somewhat competitive (which is possible)
That's an easy one. They could introduce the 5th PU already in Spain, take that grid penalty that won't matter, and have 5 engines to the end of the year when the hopes for some competitiveness and points might materialize. But all in all, it looks like that the most of the year will be mostly about running to improve and to close the gap rather than to fight for some higher place in WCC/WDC.

In any case, that Magnussen is going to run Alonso's PU tomorrow in this one race, does not realistically take anything from Alonso in terms of scoring some WDC points, I would comfortably presume so. To McLaren, tomorrow's race is more like the continuation of the winter testings.

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Re: Alonso crash/missing Melbourne [MERGED]

Post by mcdo »

Prema wrote:
mcdo wrote:
Prema wrote:
mcdo wrote:
hk77 wrote:Does this mean that whenever Alonso, returns he will still have the 4 new engines for the season, or does he use the one that is being used by Magnussen?
Same engine as Magnussen. I believe it's car-specific, not driver-specific
Like, considering the car competitiveness, it would make any real difference to Alonso if 4 or 5..
I'm pretty sure he wouldn't want to be hit with grid penalties right around the time the McLaren is getting somewhat competitive (which is possible)
That's an easy one. They could introduce the 5th PU already in Spain, take that grid penalty that won't matter, and have 5 engines to the end of the year when the hopes for some competitiveness and points might materialize. But all in all, it looks like that the most of the year will be mostly about running to improve and to close the gap rather than to fight for some higher place in WCC/WDC.

In any case, that Magnussen is going to run Alonso's PU tomorrow in this one race, does not realistically take anything from Alonso in terms of scoring some WDC points, I would comfortably presume so.
That could work, as long as there's no rule to prevent them bringing a 5th one in before the first 4 have expired
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Re: Alonso crash/missing Melbourne [MERGED]

Post by mds »

Prema wrote: That's an easy one. They could introduce the 5th PU already in Spain, take that grid penalty that won't matter, and have 5 engines to the end of the year when the hopes for some competitiveness and points might materialize.
Don't forget they still have 9 tokens for development. If they bring in 5 PU's by Spain either all tokens will have to be taken up (not likely as they will want to spread development based on what they learn) or they're still going to be hit with penalties when they introduce new parts on either one of the PU's.
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Re: Alonso crash/missing Melbourne [MERGED]

Post by mas »

Why on Earth is Ron Dennis worrying about engine penalties when they are qualifying last anyway ?!
Burn through them and sort out the problems quickly. He has lost the plot when he was comparing himself to Red Bull who currently qualify in the top ten and should care about grid penalties.

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Re: Alonso crash/missing Melbourne [MERGED]

Post by A2jdl »

mas wrote:Why on Earth is Ron Dennis worrying about engine penalties when they are qualifying last anyway ?!
Burn through them and sort out the problems quickly. He has lost the plot when he was comparing himself to Red Bull who currently qualify in the top ten and should care about grid penalties.
Well he said that the systems are not working together properly at the moment and when they sort it out they will be competitive, so there is no point in screwing a PU now and then have to take more penalties later when they have things sorted and are able to race.

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Re: Alonso crash/missing Melbourne [MERGED]

Post by Millemagico »

RaggedMan wrote:
Millemagico wrote:As you noticed Flavio didnt rule out electric shock. Changing shift or braking during accident wont rule out that also. Muscles do funny things when you give some electric to them.
Also many people who have received shocks from stun gun, cant figure out what happened to them, if the shock was given from behind.

It seems that Mr. Dennis is pathetic liar and his credibility has reached "Putin level".
If it was a single shock he wouldn't hit the downshift paddle multiple times.

Downshifting multiple times? By Mr.Dennis? He lied before,remember?

Even if so, does collected energy come out on stable DC or pulsed DC, how about in exceptional conditions like overcharged battery or in high temperatures? Is there any overcharging protection? Does it just cut out alternator and charging systems? Cutting out suddenly can make huge peak in voltage system (like ignition system).

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Re: Alonso crash/missing Melbourne [MERGED]

Post by Millemagico »

According Gian Carlo Minardis sources Mclaren didnt use ERS in first race.
More evidences for electric shock to Alonso.

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Re: Alonso crash/missing Melbourne [MERGED]

Post by RaggedMan »

Millemagico wrote:According Gian Carlo Minardis sources Mclaren didnt use ERS in first race.
More evidences for electric shock to Alonso.
No. Just because it isn't working right doesn't mean it's shicking the drivers. Everything I've read points to cooling of the ERS components and wonky seals.
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Re: Alonso crash/missing Melbourne [MERGED]

Post by DrG »

Something really interesting about Alonso's crash, Mark Webber, who is a an F1 commentator here in Oz this year, said during a conversation with other commentators about concussion, that Alonso, when given the normal questions in hospital by doctors about who he was, what year it was etc, said that it was 1995, his name was Fernando Alonso & he raced in karts. No wonder doctors advised him to rest up & miss the first race :)

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Re: Alonso crash/missing Melbourne [MERGED]

Post by moby »

Millemagico wrote:
RaggedMan wrote:
Millemagico wrote:As you noticed Flavio didnt rule out electric shock. Changing shift or braking during accident wont rule out that also. Muscles do funny things when you give some electric to them.
Also many people who have received shocks from stun gun, cant figure out what happened to them, if the shock was given from behind.

It seems that Mr. Dennis is pathetic liar and his credibility has reached "Putin level".
If it was a single shock he wouldn't hit the downshift paddle multiple times.

Downshifting multiple times? By Mr.Dennis? He lied before,remember?

Even if so, does collected energy come out on stable DC or pulsed DC, how about in exceptional conditions like overcharged battery or in high temperatures? Is there any overcharging protection? Does it just cut out alternator and charging systems? Cutting out suddenly can make huge peak in voltage system (like ignition system).

This is a very good point actually. And probably very hard to replicate.

If charge reaches a rate where no mo can be stored, I would imagine there is some sort of "crow bar" effect (so called after the old panic measure of throwing a crow bar across the rails to kill the power by blowing a main fuse somewhere)

If this happens, it can not suddenly stop harvesting and leave the driver without retardation, so several things need to happen together. Mechanical (hydraulic) toffee apple must be re-introduces while the action of driving the generator is reduced and removed.

Now this spike at that point has to be disposed of somewhere, and I wonder how often Honda/Mclaren got to that point previously, and how often this "dump" had been tested in humid conditions and a driver in sweaty clothes? (or if not too well, had to take a leak in the car)

Not likely, but worth thinking about.

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Re: Alonso crash/missing Melbourne [MERGED]

Post by Millemagico »

Researchers have shown that an electric shock ranging from 120 to 52,000 volts can cause neurologic and neuropsychological symptoms in humans. Following an electrical injury, some patients may show various emotional and behavioral aftereffects, such as memory loss and symptoms of depression.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/20 ... 113311.htm

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Re: Alonso crash/missing Melbourne [MERGED]

Post by InBetween »

Luis García Abad, FA's spokesman (manager?) has confirmed in spanish media that Fernando will drive in Malaysia. Not sure how official this is but good (and expected) news nonetheless.

http://www.elmundo.es/deportes/2015/03/ ... b4575.html

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Re: Alonso crash/missing Melbourne [MERGED]

Post by Robot »

InBetween wrote:Luis García Abad, FA's spokesman (manager?) has confirmed in spanish media that Fernando will drive in Malaysia. Not sure how official this is but good (and expected) news nonetheless.

http://www.elmundo.es/deportes/2015/03/ ... b4575.html

He still need to pass the FIA test, I guess they already did the test unofficially, and they know he is good to go.

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Re: Alonso crash/missing Melbourne [MERGED]

Post by lord byron »

Prema wrote:
mcdo wrote:
Prema wrote:
mcdo wrote:
hk77 wrote:Does this mean that whenever Alonso, returns he will still have the 4 new engines for the season, or does he use the one that is being used by Magnussen?
Same engine as Magnussen. I believe it's car-specific, not driver-specific
Like, considering the car competitiveness, it would make any real difference to Alonso if 4 or 5..
I'm pretty sure he wouldn't want to be hit with grid penalties right around the time the McLaren is getting somewhat competitive (which is possible)
That's an easy one. They could introduce the 5th PU already in Spain, take that grid penalty that won't matter, and have 5 engines to the end of the year when the hopes for some competitiveness and points might materialize. But all in all, it looks like that the most of the year will be mostly about running to improve and to close the gap rather than to fight for some higher place in WCC/WDC.

In any case, that Magnussen is going to run Alonso's PU tomorrow in this one race, does not realistically take anything from Alonso in terms of scoring some WDC points, I would comfortably presume so. To McLaren, tomorrow's race is more like the continuation of the winter testings.
I'm not sure that's how it works I read someware think it was merc they can change engines when ever they want it was somehing about using a older mileage engine to save one for a hard circuits but are still limited to four so if this was the case they would have to blow up the other 4 engines before any penalties can take effect
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Re: Alonso crash/missing Melbourne [MERGED]

Post by Prema »

lord byron wrote:
Prema wrote: That's an easy one. They could introduce the 5th PU already in Spain, take that grid penalty that won't matter, and have 5 engines to the end of the year when the hopes for some competitiveness and points might materialize. But all in all, it looks like that the most of the year will be mostly about running to improve and to close the gap rather than to fight for some higher place in WCC/WDC.
I'm not sure that's how it works I read someware think it was merc they can change engines when ever they want it was somehing about using a older mileage engine to save one for a hard circuits but are still limited to four so if this was the case they would have to blow up the other 4 engines before any penalties can take effect
I am not saying that it might not be so. But generally speaking, how it works in F1 is how it is written down in the Sporting and Technical Regulations. And looking there, I don't find anything of a kind that would prevent doing it the way I speculated that it could work. If that what you do is not in the breach of any Regulation, then you can do it. And in the Technical Regulations, it doesn't state anything about just any preconditions leading to the introduction/use of any PU beyond allotted 4, nor whether any of the first 4 PUs can or cannot be taken into the use again once the 5th PU is being introduced. But only about the penalties shall a driver use more than 4 PUs.

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Re: Alonso crash/missing Melbourne [MERGED]

Post by mds »

Prema wrote:
lord byron wrote:
Prema wrote: That's an easy one. They could introduce the 5th PU already in Spain, take that grid penalty that won't matter, and have 5 engines to the end of the year when the hopes for some competitiveness and points might materialize. But all in all, it looks like that the most of the year will be mostly about running to improve and to close the gap rather than to fight for some higher place in WCC/WDC.
I'm not sure that's how it works I read someware think it was merc they can change engines when ever they want it was somehing about using a older mileage engine to save one for a hard circuits but are still limited to four so if this was the case they would have to blow up the other 4 engines before any penalties can take effect
I am not saying that it might not be so. But generally speaking, how it works in F1 is how it is written down in the Sporting and Technical Regulations. And looking there, I don't find anything of a kind that would prevent doing it the way I speculated that it could work. If that what you do is not in the breach of any Regulation, then you can do it. And in the Technical Regulations, it doesn't state anything about just any preconditions leading to the introduction/use of any PU beyond allotted 4, nor whether any of the first 4 PUs can or cannot be taken into the use again once the 5th PU is being introduced. But only about the penalties shall a driver use more than 4 PUs.
Refer to my earlier reply:
Don't forget they still have 9 tokens for development. If they bring in 5 PU's by Spain either all tokens will have to be taken up (not likely as they will want to spread development based on what they learn) or they're still going to be hit with penalties when they introduce new parts on either one of the PU's.
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Re: Alonso crash/missing Melbourne [MERGED]

Post by Prema »

mds wrote:
Prema wrote:
lord byron wrote:
Prema wrote: That's an easy one. They could introduce the 5th PU already in Spain, take that grid penalty that won't matter, and have 5 engines to the end of the year when the hopes for some competitiveness and points might materialize. But all in all, it looks like that the most of the year will be mostly about running to improve and to close the gap rather than to fight for some higher place in WCC/WDC.
I'm not sure that's how it works I read someware think it was merc they can change engines when ever they want it was somehing about using a older mileage engine to save one for a hard circuits but are still limited to four so if this was the case they would have to blow up the other 4 engines before any penalties can take effect
I am not saying that it might not be so. But generally speaking, how it works in F1 is how it is written down in the Sporting and Technical Regulations. And looking there, I don't find anything of a kind that would prevent doing it the way I speculated that it could work. If that what you do is not in the breach of any Regulation, then you can do it. And in the Technical Regulations, it doesn't state anything about just any preconditions leading to the introduction/use of any PU beyond allotted 4, nor whether any of the first 4 PUs can or cannot be taken into the use again once the 5th PU is being introduced. But only about the penalties shall a driver use more than 4 PUs.
Refer to my earlier reply:
Don't forget they still have 9 tokens for development. If they bring in 5 PU's by Spain either all tokens will have to be taken up (not likely as they will want to spread development based on what they learn) or they're still going to be hit with penalties when they introduce new parts on either one of the PU's.
I was only referring to whether it would be a workable solution within the Regulations, whether they first have to exhaust the allotted 4 PUs or not. But what McLaren-Honda better be doing as per their preferred development strategy for this year (whatever that one already may be) that I wasn't intending to address.

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Re: Alonso crash/missing Melbourne [MERGED]

Post by egnat69 »

moby wrote:
Millemagico wrote:
RaggedMan wrote:
Millemagico wrote:As you noticed Flavio didnt rule out electric shock. Changing shift or braking during accident wont rule out that also. Muscles do funny things when you give some electric to them.
Also many people who have received shocks from stun gun, cant figure out what happened to them, if the shock was given from behind.

It seems that Mr. Dennis is pathetic liar and his credibility has reached "Putin level".
If it was a single shock he wouldn't hit the downshift paddle multiple times.

Downshifting multiple times? By Mr.Dennis? He lied before,remember?

Even if so, does collected energy come out on stable DC or pulsed DC, how about in exceptional conditions like overcharged battery or in high temperatures? Is there any overcharging protection? Does it just cut out alternator and charging systems? Cutting out suddenly can make huge peak in voltage system (like ignition system).

This is a very good point actually. And probably very hard to replicate.

If charge reaches a rate where no mo can be stored, I would imagine there is some sort of "crow bar" effect (so called after the old panic measure of throwing a crow bar across the rails to kill the power by blowing a main fuse somewhere)

If this happens, it can not suddenly stop harvesting and leave the driver without retardation, so several things need to happen together. Mechanical (hydraulic) toffee apple must be re-introduces while the action of driving the generator is reduced and removed.

Now this spike at that point has to be disposed of somewhere, and I wonder how often Honda/Mclaren got to that point previously, and how often this "dump" had been tested in humid conditions and a driver in sweaty clothes? (or if not too well, had to take a leak in the car)

Not likely, but worth thinking about.
but then again... the whole car basically is a big, closed conductor with the driver's body basically representing the biggest resistance in the whole system... why on earth should the current choose to go from the chassis, into the seat, through the suit into the body when it can go anywhere else more easily?
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Re: Alonso crash/missing Melbourne [MERGED]

Post by bertisport »

I'm sorry but this strikes me as odd.

DISCLAIMER:
- I am not medically trained
- I am not aware of the FIA's proceedures

I have had concussion before, I've even been unlucky enough to have a bruise between my brain and skull. At no point did I have to go through any tests (or even recomended I have tests) before getting aboard a commercial airliner....

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Re: Alonso crash/missing Melbourne [MERGED]

Post by Black_Flag_11 »

bertisport wrote:I'm sorry but this strikes me as odd.

DISCLAIMER:
- I am not medically trained
- I am not aware of the FIA's proceedures

I have had concussion before, I've even been unlucky enough to have a bruise between my brain and skull. At no point did I have to go through any tests (or even recomended I have tests) before getting aboard a commercial airliner....
The tests are used seemingly anytime a driver has a serious accident. For example Perez in 2011 after his Monaco crash.

http://m.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/92062
Speaking ahead of this weekend's event in Montreal, Perez said that he was confident he would pass the mandatory FIA medical tests that he will have to take on Thursday.

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Re: Alonso crash/missing Melbourne [MERGED]

Post by moby »

bertisport wrote:I'm sorry but this strikes me as odd.

DISCLAIMER:
- I am not medically trained
- I am not aware of the FIA's proceedures

I have had concussion before, I've even been unlucky enough to have a bruise between my brain and skull. At no point did I have to go through any tests (or even recomended I have tests) before getting aboard a commercial airliner....
Were you driving it? :]

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Re: Alonso crash/missing Melbourne [MERGED]

Post by mmi16 »

bertisport wrote:I'm sorry but this strikes me as odd.

DISCLAIMER:
- I am not medically trained
- I am not aware of the FIA's proceedures

I have had concussion before, I've even been unlucky enough to have a bruise between my brain and skull. At no point did I have to go through any tests (or even recomended I have tests) before getting aboard a commercial airliner....
Nobody cares about you.

You're not being paid Millions to do something, and you were not involved in an activity that has a concussion protocol to follow. The medical response to concussions today is vastly different than it was 10 years or more ago. Did you have a 'baseline' test of your mental acuity prior to your concussion(s) to compare your after concussion(s) performance against?
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Re: Alonso crash/missing Melbourne [MERGED]

Post by owenmahamilton »

Finally we might be getting some proper answers as regards Alonso's crash, there is a report on Autosport where he says that his steering went heavy before the crash. Maybe the power steering failed?

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Re: Alonso crash/missing Melbourne [MERGED]

Post by P.S »

owenmahamilton wrote:Finally we might be getting some proper answers as regards Alonso's crash, there is a report on Autosport where he says that his steering went heavy before the crash. Maybe the power steering failed?
Or maybe he was feeling weak before fainting... ;)

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Re: Alonso crash/missing Melbourne [MERGED]

Post by egnat69 »

P.S wrote:
owenmahamilton wrote:Finally we might be getting some proper answers as regards Alonso's crash, there is a report on Autosport where he says that his steering went heavy before the crash. Maybe the power steering failed?
Or maybe he was feeling weak before fainting... ;)
or maybe his memory is still a bit off and it just felt heavy steering to the right while already grinding along the wall :lol:
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Re: Alonso crash/missing Melbourne [MERGED]

Post by mas »

or maybe he's just inventing an excuse for his error.

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Re: Alonso crash/missing Melbourne [MERGED]

Post by InBetween »

mas wrote:or maybe he's just inventing an excuse for his error.
Thats just absurd, drivers, including FA, are admitting costly errors during GP weekends, why would he ever make up an excuse for a shunt in preseason testing. Ridiculous train of thought to be honest...

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Re: Alonso crash/missing Melbourne [MERGED]

Post by mcdo »

mas wrote:or maybe he's just inventing an excuse for his error.
There's always one :uhoh:
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Re: Alonso crash/missing Melbourne [MERGED]

Post by minchy »

mcdo wrote:
mas wrote:or maybe he's just inventing an excuse for his error.
There's always one :uhoh:
You may give it a :uhoh: , you may think it's absurd, but it's as good a theory as anything else! People lie, they make stuff up. I personally don't think he would, but it's not unheard of for people to fib a bit or told to by their team to cover the truth (this is f1 and McLaren after all).
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Re: Alonso crash/missing Melbourne [MERGED]

Post by moby »

My real concern is that there was a non car related problem with Alonso and he does not recall, or does not want to say about it.

No conspiracy theory, just a concern for what is a possibility. (A new job, you turn up when you would have thrown a sickie on the old place :] ).

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Re: Alonso crash/missing Melbourne [MERGED]

Post by Need4Naiim »

owenmahamilton wrote:Finally we might be getting some proper answers as regards Alonso's crash, there is a report on Autosport where he says that his steering went heavy before the crash. Maybe the power steering failed?
I think what Alonso said about the feelings is absolutely true, maybe a little incomplete:

did it happen because steering became heavier? or because Alonso felt it heavy? or both?
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Re: Alonso crash/missing Melbourne [MERGED]

Post by mcdo »

minchy wrote:
mcdo wrote:
mas wrote:or maybe he's just inventing an excuse for his error.
There's always one :uhoh:
You may give it a :uhoh: , you may think it's absurd, but it's as good a theory as anything else! People lie, they make stuff up. I personally don't think he would, but it's not unheard of for people to fib a bit or told to by their team to cover the truth (this is f1 and McLaren after all).
If McLaren were going to ask him to lie I would imagine it would be to cover a fault with the car, not the driver. Alonso flat out admitting a driver error would absolve McLaren of any blame and would relieve them of an additional headache they don't need right now

McLaren reported what Alonso said about the steering. Why would they do that if he was lying - it's putting the focus back on the car?
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mas
Posts: 2011
Joined: Sat Oct 13, 2012 2:29 am

Re: Alonso crash/missing Melbourne [MERGED]

Post by mas »

InBetween wrote:
mas wrote:or maybe he's just inventing an excuse for his error.
Thats just absurd, drivers, including FA, are admitting costly errors during GP weekends, why would he ever make up an excuse for a shunt in preseason testing. Ridiculous train of thought to be honest...
Pride. It has been reported that he did not like Dennis saying he might have made a mistake. Alonso is a complex emotional guy who speaks in riddles and never lays out all his cards on the table so you just can't rule it out.

InBetween
Posts: 100
Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2014 5:37 pm
Location: Madrid, Spain

Re: Alonso crash/missing Melbourne [MERGED]

Post by InBetween »

mas wrote:
InBetween wrote:
mas wrote:or maybe he's just inventing an excuse for his error.
Thats just absurd, drivers, including FA, are admitting costly errors during GP weekends, why would he ever make up an excuse for a shunt in preseason testing. Ridiculous train of thought to be honest...
Pride. It has been reported that he did not like Dennis saying he might have made a mistake. Alonso is a complex emotional guy who speaks in riddles and never lays out all his cards on the table so you just can't rule it out.
And how exactly does that fit with Mclaren being the one who made public what FA said to the team about the steering? It wasn't FA talking to the media...

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