Alonso crash/missing Melbourne [MERGED]

moby · Post by **moby** » Tue Mar 03, 2015 10:08 pm

pubpokerplayer wrote:We're not being told it's A or B. We're being told he's got concussion and with doctors advice it isn't worth risking making that worse. They've told you he's had concussion. If you have concussion you aren't fine in terms of going racing in a couple of weeks.

It like with the Ireland international a couple of weeks back. Got concussion wanted to play two weeks later they said he was fine but couldn't take the risk. This is the 21st century we understand the more the ramifications of concussion and don't take stupid risk. Get a grip people.

That is what I am saying.

He is not fine, he is suffering the after effects of concussion. Fine means he is ready to race no after effects.

pubpokerplayer · Post by **pubpokerplayer** » Tue Mar 03, 2015 10:10 pm

He's fine as in there are no long term worries this is all just precaution.

A2jdl · Post by **A2jdl** » Tue Mar 03, 2015 10:35 pm

moby wrote:
pubpokerplayer wrote:We're not being told it's A or B. We're being told he's got concussion and with doctors advice it isn't worth risking making that worse. They've told you he's had concussion. If you have concussion you aren't fine in terms of going racing in a couple of weeks.

It like with the Ireland international a couple of weeks back. Got concussion wanted to play two weeks later they said he was fine but couldn't take the risk. This is the 21st century we understand the more the ramifications of concussion and don't take stupid risk. Get a grip people.

That is what I am saying.

He is not fine, he is suffering the after effects of concussion. Fine means he is ready to race no after effects.

He is fine but can not risk another concussion at the moment as it will be worse than normal. And at aus the chance of getting one is higher because of the concrete walls. Simple really.

WHoff78 · Post by **WHoff78** » Tue Mar 03, 2015 10:48 pm

I think people are just digging into it, which is surely the point of a discussion board – to look a little beyond what is available in the media.

The most obvious explanation is that McLaren and Alonso are taking a precaution by not racing, a decision made easier by the likelihood the car won’t be competitive. But I think people are just questioning it because the statements and various other quotes released have come across a little shady /contradictory at times. I don’t think this is anything more than playing it safe, given the high profile concussion has at the moment, but I don’t think those questioning it are seriously wide of the mark.

Lord Crc · Post by **Lord Crc** » Tue Mar 03, 2015 10:49 pm

Black_Flag_11 wrote:Yup, they have also said today he was uninjured, so they simply don't seem to realise that a concussion constitutes an injury.

That's how I see it as well. When McLaren says "injury" replace that with "broken bones".

oz_karter · Post by **oz_karter** » Tue Mar 03, 2015 11:33 pm

Mate, forget Alonso...

It's spelt A U S T R A L I A

There's no double 'L' mate.

Other acceptable alternatives are "Oz" or "Straya".

We're deeply offended mate.

Yours sincerely,

Australia

schumilegend · Post by **schumilegend** » Wed Mar 04, 2015 12:09 am

Wonder if he would have missed the first race if he was driving a Merc and a chance for race victory and championship

Laura23 · Post by **Laura23** » Wed Mar 04, 2015 12:58 am

schumilegend wrote:Wonder if he would have missed the first race if he was driving a Merc and a chance for race victory and championship

Yes he would have because concussion is dangerous regardless of the car you drive in. A Mercedes W06 isn't the sudden cure for a brain injury.

ob1kenobi.23 · Post by **ob1kenobi.23** » Wed Mar 04, 2015 2:00 am

If Fernando was unconscious and/or had a concussions then it is eminently sensible that he not drive till his doctors give him clearance to so
What confuses me is Dennis categorically denying that he had concussion,
These are his words.

“He is devoid of all injuries,” Dennis said. “We can categorically say he has no injury. We can categorically say he didn’t suffer an electric shock. We can categorically say that, we believe, the car did not fail. Everything after that becomes subjective.”

“He’s not even concussed. The technical definition of a concussion is that you can see it in a scan. The possibility is that the change of direction happened so fast that actually it was like – it’s inappropriate to use the word – a whiplash of the brain. It didn’t actually touch anything. It didn’t bruise, it didn’t bleed.

“I’m not trying to conceal anything. I’m just telling you the facts: he is physically perfect. There is no concussion.”

& then the team coming out saying that he had.

These were their words.

“However, Fernando’s doctors have recommended to him that, following the concussion he sustained in a testing accident at the Circuit de Barcelona-Catalunya on February 22nd, for the time being he should seek to limit as far as is possible any environmental risk factors that could potentially result in his sustaining another concussion so soon after his previous one, so as to minimise the chances of second impact syndrome, as is normal medical procedure when treating athletes after concussions.”

Source

http://motorsportstalk.nbcsports.com/20 ... nso-story/?

BlackSG5 · Post by **BlackSG5** » Wed Mar 04, 2015 3:19 am

pokerman wrote:
Covalent wrote:
egnat69 wrote:Fernando will not drive in oz... KMag to take over...

http://www.mclaren.com/formula1/inside- ... al-update/
Wow. Good decision to not take any unnecessary risks, but I find it curious how McLaren on several occasions in that statement point out that he sustained no damage whatsoever during the accident. What would you call having a concussion then?
I would call that the Ron Dennis misinformation police

well he dressed down motoya's 2005 misadventure as a "tennis accident". could a similar thing be at play here?

Blake · Post by **Blake** » Wed Mar 04, 2015 3:54 am

Confusing indeed... on the surface it would appear that for some reason Ron got very defensive as though admitting injury would somehow reflect poorly on his team.

carlisimo · Post by **carlisimo** » Wed Mar 04, 2015 4:15 am

mds wrote:
carlisimo wrote:It sounds to me like the doctors can’t find any damage that proves Alonso suffered a concussion (hence the wording of McLaren’s statements), but the accelerations and loss of consciousness make it probable that he did.
?
However, Fernando’s doctors have recommended to him that, following the concussion he sustained in a testing accident at the Circuit de Barcelona-Catalunya on February 22nd, for the time being ...
They have been clear in that he suffered a concussion.

See ob1kenobi.23's post a couple of posts above this one. Ron Dennis said, "He’s not even concussed. The technical definition of a concussion is that you can see it in a scan." That was early on; I'll give him the benefit of the doubt and assume that RD's technical definition of a concussion wasn't the same as the one that doctors use. Hopefully they've let him know.

Mercedes-Benz · Post by **Mercedes-Benz** » Wed Mar 04, 2015 4:32 am

Obviously there is no chance of podium. Mclaren probably will struggle, if they even finish the race? So I guess it is just another testing for them and a easy decision. I cannot believe F1 drivers would be scared or do not want to take risk. Does anyone have a proper video of the accident ?

2fast · Post by **2fast** » Wed Mar 04, 2015 6:47 am

I just noticed this news on BBC Sport earlier this morning.

well, I do hope Alonso will make it in Sepang, Malaysia.

I wish him all the best of luck.

MarkieM · Post by **MarkieM** » Wed Mar 04, 2015 6:49 am

I understand and fully support recovery after a head injury. Makes perfect sense.

What I can't get my head around is the suspect cause of the accident and relatively slow impact. Gust of wind? Seriously? He's arguably the best driver of a motor car in the world.

My personal opinion is that his unconsciousness was the cause of the accident and they don't know why he passed out. True he was concussed and needs the appropriate recovery time but this is the result of the impact. The reported odd nature of the cause looks to me like he was already out.

Something definitely not being revealed here.

egnat69 · Post by **egnat69** » Wed Mar 04, 2015 8:03 am

BlackSG5 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Covalent wrote:
egnat69 wrote:Fernando will not drive in oz... KMag to take over...

http://www.mclaren.com/formula1/inside- ... al-update/
Wow. Good decision to not take any unnecessary risks, but I find it curious how McLaren on several occasions in that statement point out that he sustained no damage whatsoever during the accident. What would you call having a concussion then?
I would call that the Ron Dennis misinformation police
well he dressed down motoya's 2005 misadventure as a "tennis accident". could a similar thing be at play here?

i'd think drivers have an intention to disguise injuries, too... take mark webber and his broken shoulder for example... injuries make them look weak and they surely wouldn't want their rivals to know that...

egnat69 · Post by **egnat69** » Wed Mar 04, 2015 8:14 am

dizlexik wrote:
PzR Slim wrote:
dizlexik wrote:Also we were never told shortly after accident that he was fine. We were told that his scans were ok.
This was posted on 22 February.

RunningMan wrote:From Autosport's Ben Anderson

Alonso has had CT scan. No injuries says the team.
Stop talking about things you don't remember (or never read).

http://www.mclaren.com/formula1/inside- ... do-alonso/

Show me where McLaren made any statement that he had no injuries?

the last time, here in the person of ron dennis speaking at an official press conference: http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/117828

but again... it is possibly in the interest of the driver to cover up an injury, as it would weaken his stand against other drivers...

PzR Slim · Post by **PzR Slim** » Wed Mar 04, 2015 8:26 am

Ron Dennis wrote: The technical definition of a concussion is that you can see it in a scan.

http://motorsportstalk.nbcsports.com/20 ... nso-story/?

Not according to this:

Concussion describes a brain injury where, after an injury, there are functional changes that occur in how the brain works but no structural damage can be seen on standard imaging tests like CT scan.

http://www.medicinenet.com/brain_concussion/article.htm

Like I have said previously this has been handled incredibly badly by Mclaren. If they had just given the facts instead of putting it all through the Mclaren Control Algorithm (forever now known as MCA) they wouldn't find themselves in the position of lots of people questioning both the accident and Alonso's health. I saw Brundle on Sky Sports News last night still unsure about the whole incident, still questioning what we have been told and he thought more information would eventually come out.

Laura23 · Post by **Laura23** » Wed Mar 04, 2015 8:35 am

Prema wrote:
Laura23 wrote:You simply can't risk Alonso having another hard impact with a concrete less than 21 days after his last one. Melbourne is littered with concrete walls sucking cars into them. Impacts down under are rarely small (stop it).

After what happened with Bianchi the FIA just cannot afford to take a risk with a driver if they don't have to. The wise choice was to have him step aside for the race and have another two weeks to get back to normal. Some may say there's something fishy going on but you'd be saying a whole lot more if Alonso were allowed to race and then hit the wall hard with severe consequences.

Remember Monaco a few years ago when Perez had a hard knock in Quali? He was given a clean bill of health for Canada but when he got in the car he realised he still wasn't 100% to drive an F1 car despite being fine in day to day life.
Was it the FIA's decision?

The FIA doctor didn't pass him fit to race so yes.

Herb · Post by **Herb** » Wed Mar 04, 2015 8:46 am

You got a source for that Laura?

I've only read that HIS doctor has advised against racing. There is nothing in either Autosport or the BBC about FIA doctors being involved.

mikeyg123 · Post by **mikeyg123** » Wed Mar 04, 2015 9:06 am

Laura23 wrote:
Prema wrote:
Laura23 wrote:You simply can't risk Alonso having another hard impact with a concrete less than 21 days after his last one. Melbourne is littered with concrete walls sucking cars into them. Impacts down under are rarely small (stop it).

After what happened with Bianchi the FIA just cannot afford to take a risk with a driver if they don't have to. The wise choice was to have him step aside for the race and have another two weeks to get back to normal. Some may say there's something fishy going on but you'd be saying a whole lot more if Alonso were allowed to race and then hit the wall hard with severe consequences.

Remember Monaco a few years ago when Perez had a hard knock in Quali? He was given a clean bill of health for Canada but when he got in the car he realised he still wasn't 100% to drive an F1 car despite being fine in day to day life.
Was it the FIA's decision?
The FIA doctor didn't pass him fit to race so yes.

Could you please provide a source? I asked a few days ago when you last claimed this because it contradicts all I have read so far.

I have read he was "advised" not to race. No prevented from racing or not passed fit. No mention at all of the FIA doctor.

Laura23 · Post by **Laura23** » Wed Mar 04, 2015 9:16 am

The final descision on whether or not a race driver is fit to face or not lies with the FIA doctor. Alonso was advised not to race by both him and his own doctors. The FIA advises drivers to take 21 days off minimum between concussion and returning to race. It's really that simple.

Herb · Post by **Herb** » Wed Mar 04, 2015 9:18 am

So you have no source then.

Following doctor's advice not to race is different to being declared unfit to race.

Laura23 · Post by **Laura23** » Wed Mar 04, 2015 9:23 am

It was well reported by the main UK press he had a meeting with his doctors and the FIA doctor this week. It's fairly clear what went on and he was told racing was a bad idea by both. If he had been passed fit he'd be on his way to Oz by now, he wasn't.

Balibari · Post by **Balibari** » Wed Mar 04, 2015 9:41 am

The reports I've seen state 'doctor's advice'. It seems that's the official line, presumably from McLaren. It could be that it's just a misleading statement and the FIA doctor has barred him from racing. Equally the FIA doctor could have technically passed him but with Alonso's own doctor advising against.

I don't think the FIA medic would make an official and binding decision so long before the race weekend though. Unless it really is pretty serious.

mac_d · Post by **mac_d** » Wed Mar 04, 2015 9:56 am

Some interesting facts in this thread. I had assumed he was questionable from the wording. I thought it was a case he had been told it was a bigger risk to drive compared to normal but it was up to him. Then the fact his car is probably going to be nowhere helped make that choice - no real upside but a potential downside. I may be looking at this through some very cynical eyes though.

matzy · Post by **matzy** » Wed Mar 04, 2015 9:59 am

PzR Slim wrote:
Ron Dennis wrote: The technical definition of a concussion is that you can see it in a scan.

http://motorsportstalk.nbcsports.com/20 ... nso-story/?
Not according to this:

Concussion describes a brain injury where, after an injury, there are functional changes that occur in how the brain works but no structural damage can be seen on standard imaging tests like CT scan.
http://www.medicinenet.com/brain_concussion/article.htm

Like I have said previously this has been handled incredibly badly by Mclaren. If they had just given the facts instead of putting it all through the Mclaren Control Algorithm (forever now known as MCA) they wouldn't find themselves in the position of lots of people questioning both the accident and Alonso's health. I saw Brundle on Sky Sports News last night still unsure about the whole incident, still questioning what we have been told and he thought more information would eventually come out.

Indeed. I mean, there are still questions as to whether the accident was caused by Alonso having some event that lead to the accident (such as a momentary lack of consciousness whilst driving). Quite how this question can be doing the rounds, is beyond me. I cant help feel that Mclaren have fuelled the fire on this particular story/conspiracy.

Saz · Post by **Saz** » Wed Mar 04, 2015 11:49 am

Sensible move. Concussion is not something to be sniffed at, and it's good to see someone taking professional advice (assuming that this wasn't forced on him).

I don't think there has been a cover-up by McLaren, but they did handle this really poorly with their contradicting statements. So I do understand why people are assuming a cover-up, but I think its just more incompetance on McLaren's part.

Hopefully once the season gets underway this will calm down a bit.

Yellowbin74 · Post by **Yellowbin74** » Wed Mar 04, 2015 12:44 pm

Do we know (does anybody know?) if the concussion was before or after he hit the wall?

Laura23 · Post by **Laura23** » Wed Mar 04, 2015 12:49 pm

Apparently some German press are claiming teams will boycott the Oz race because they want to know why Alonso crashed now rather than later. Apparently they all believe that he may have been shocked by the car. It screams bullshit if I'm honest and the race won't be boycotted.

stevey · Post by **stevey** » Wed Mar 04, 2015 12:58 pm

be an easy win for McLaren then if they manage to finish lol

RaggedMan · Post by **RaggedMan** » Wed Mar 04, 2015 1:08 pm

PzR Slim wrote:
Ron Dennis wrote: The technical definition of a concussion is that you can see it in a scan.

http://motorsportstalk.nbcsports.com/20 ... nso-story/?
Not according to this:

Concussion describes a brain injury where, after an injury, there are functional changes that occur in how the brain works but no structural damage can be seen on standard imaging tests like CT scan.
http://www.medicinenet.com/brain_concussion/article.htm

Like I have said previously this has been handled incredibly badly by Mclaren. If they had just given the facts instead of putting it all through the Mclaren Control Algorithm (forever now known as MCA) they wouldn't find themselves in the position of lots of people questioning both the accident and Alonso's health. I saw Brundle on Sky Sports News last night still unsure about the whole incident, still questioning what we have been told and he thought more information would eventually come out.

Maybe Ron bought Steve Jobs 'Reality Distortion Field' from the heirs and just hasn't figured out how to work it properly yet.

Beanhead · Post by **Beanhead** » Wed Mar 04, 2015 1:11 pm

oz_karter wrote:Mate, forget Alonso...

It's spelt A U S T R A L I A

There's no double 'L' mate.

Other acceptable alternatives are "Oz" or "Straya".

We're deeply offended mate.

Yours sincerely,

Australia

So - Mr Pedant, the statements correct? Alonso will not be racing in Australlia? Correct? Yes?

Anyway assuming he was referring to Australia, the country, isn't he entitled to do so? Seen as you can call it 'Oz' neither letter appearing in the full name?

Also, you used the word 'mate' 3 times out of 24 words, that's more than 10% of your rant. #justsayin

bear bantz init bruv....xxx (kiss kiss kiss)

PzR Slim · Post by **PzR Slim** » Wed Mar 04, 2015 1:21 pm

Laura23 wrote:Apparently some German press are claiming teams will boycott the Oz race because they want to know why Alonso crashed now rather than later. Apparently they all believe that he may have been shocked by the car. It screams bullshit if I'm honest and the race won't be boycotted.

Can't believe that but then again this is F1! I'd lend it more credence if more teams used the same power train as Mclaren. But then again don't Mclaren Technology supply all the teams with some of the power train components?

mikeyg123 · Post by **mikeyg123** » Wed Mar 04, 2015 1:52 pm

Laura23 wrote:The final descision on whether or not a race driver is fit to face or not lies with the FIA doctor. Alonso was advised not to race by both him and his own doctors. The FIA advises drivers to take 21 days off minimum between concussion and returning to race. It's really that simple.

any link that states Alonso spoke to the FIA doctor?

If Alonso speaks to his own doctor who advises him not to race and he decides to take that advice then there would be no need to have anything to do with the FIA doctor. That's what it reads like to me anyway. On twitter Alonso used the word "recommendation" Really doesn't sound like anybody told him he was not allowed to race.

I certainly can't find any evidence that Alonso presented himself before the FIA doctor.

Laura23 · Post by **Laura23** » Wed Mar 04, 2015 2:00 pm

mikeyg123 wrote:
Laura23 wrote:The final descision on whether or not a race driver is fit to face or not lies with the FIA doctor. Alonso was advised not to race by both him and his own doctors. The FIA advises drivers to take 21 days off minimum between concussion and returning to race. It's really that simple.
any link that states Alonso spoke to the FIA doctor?

If Alonso speaks to his own doctor who advises him not to race and he decides to take that advice then there would be no need to have anything to do with the FIA doctor. Thats what it reads like to me anyway.

I certainly can't find any evidence that Alonso presented himself before the FIA doctor.

All drivers have to meet with the FIA doctor before proceeding with anything else after such a crash. He met with the FIA to take some tests and the doctor was there. He is physically fine but not fit to race yet because it is still under 21 days since the crash.

You want a source then find one, I'm not disclosing where I got my information from because I was asked not to since it could lose them their job. It is well known drivers have to do such tests after crashes like the one Alonso had. Perez had to do it after his Monaco crash in 2011.

deSiRiuS · Post by **deSiRiuS** » Wed Mar 04, 2015 2:06 pm

Spanish TV said that Alonso woke up thinking it was 1996. He didnt remember anyone, only his father. It seems everything is ok now and memories are back.

mikeyg123 · Post by **mikeyg123** » Wed Mar 04, 2015 2:08 pm

Laura23 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Laura23 wrote:The final descision on whether or not a race driver is fit to face or not lies with the FIA doctor. Alonso was advised not to race by both him and his own doctors. The FIA advises drivers to take 21 days off minimum between concussion and returning to race. It's really that simple.
any link that states Alonso spoke to the FIA doctor?

If Alonso speaks to his own doctor who advises him not to race and he decides to take that advice then there would be no need to have anything to do with the FIA doctor. Thats what it reads like to me anyway.

I certainly can't find any evidence that Alonso presented himself before the FIA doctor.
All drivers have to meet with the FIA doctor before proceeding with anything else after such a crash. He met with the FIA to take some tests and the doctor was there. He is physically fine but not fit to race yet because it is still under 21 days since the crash.

You want a source then find one, I'm not disclosing where I got my information from because I was asked not to since it could lose them their job. It is well known drivers have to do such tests after crashes like the one Alonso had. Perez had to do it after his Monaco crash in 2011.

You can't just make a bold statement and then tell over people to find a source for it!

"Honda have made a huge stride in technology and there F1 engine will run on pure H2O. No sorry you will need to find the source yourself"

If you have heard it from someone in the know then just say "I was told this by someone in the know". Then at least when you write something that isn't being reported people will not think you are just making it up.

lamo · Post by **lamo** » Wed Mar 04, 2015 2:09 pm

How does everybody think this will favour Jenson? Enough for him to match/beat Alonso. Alonso is going to Malaysia with 300 (?) laps under his belt. Jenson by that time will surely have 200 odd laps and 6 days in the car since Alonso last drove it. Making the total 800 - 300 laps.

Malaysia will be interesting, its effectively a car Alonso has never truly driven at speed.

Laura23 · Post by **Laura23** » Wed Mar 04, 2015 2:22 pm

mikeyg123 wrote:
Laura23 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Laura23 wrote:The final descision on whether or not a race driver is fit to face or not lies with the FIA doctor. Alonso was advised not to race by both him and his own doctors. The FIA advises drivers to take 21 days off minimum between concussion and returning to race. It's really that simple.
any link that states Alonso spoke to the FIA doctor?

If Alonso speaks to his own doctor who advises him not to race and he decides to take that advice then there would be no need to have anything to do with the FIA doctor. Thats what it reads like to me anyway.

I certainly can't find any evidence that Alonso presented himself before the FIA doctor.
All drivers have to meet with the FIA doctor before proceeding with anything else after such a crash. He met with the FIA to take some tests and the doctor was there. He is physically fine but not fit to race yet because it is still under 21 days since the crash.

You want a source then find one, I'm not disclosing where I got my information from because I was asked not to since it could lose them their job. It is well known drivers have to do such tests after crashes like the one Alonso had. Perez had to do it after his Monaco crash in 2011.
You can't just make a bold statement and then tell over people to find a source for it!

"Honda have made a huge stride in technology and there F1 engine will run on pure H2O. No sorry you will need to find the source yourself"

If you have heard it from someone in the know then just say "I was told this by someone in the know". Then at least when you write something that isn't being reported people will not think you are just making it up.

Because you will still get accused of making it up regardless. I don't particularly care if people do think I'm making it up though. As long as I know I'm not lying about it. I was told something, I put it here in a post. The end. What you do with it isn't my problem.