Alonso crash/missing Melbourne [MERGED]

Beschy · Post by **Beschy** » Tue Feb 24, 2015 2:37 pm

TheOtherGuy wrote:
Beschy wrote:
Razoola wrote: I'm not a doctor but can anyone tell me what sedatives would require you to remain in hospital after they are administered? And what situation would lead to medics at the scene to administer those sedatives in the first place?
Have McLaren said they sedated him? I don't recall reading that. If that is the case they would likely have used Ketamine or Midazolam and Fentanyl.
Yeah, it's been confirmed that he was sedated.

I can't imagine that FA would have been agitated enough to require sedation if it was just a (relatively) low speed accident. He's been around motorsport a long time and has undoubtedly had bigger crashes than that so it would be a little strange for him to suddenly have issues.

I'm presuming that sedation can be used as a treatment for concussions/mild brain injuries and that's why it was administered to him, as opposed to him being in such a state that he needed it to calm him down.

Yes, the above sedation drugs are for neuro protection (i.e. preventing seizure, reducing ICP, etc). Still seems strange to me that they'd go down this route for what is being described as a fairly minor shunt. Massa's shunt at Canada last year seemed bigger and as far as I'm aware he underwent no sedation / hospital stay.

PzR Slim · Post by **PzR Slim** » Tue Feb 24, 2015 2:41 pm

moby wrote:Ref "changing down", It must be an automatic reaction of a driver to be ready to recover the car and continue after any off, so he may well have been on auto pilot there. Or even just finding neutral.

I know it's not really comparable but I find myself doing that during an 'off' when racing in sims, mainly to be in the correct gear to set off again. Seems strange that Brundle would mention it though if he didn't find it strange.

chican · Post by **chican** » Tue Feb 24, 2015 2:44 pm

Covalent wrote:Do we have a "-gate" name for this yet?

Windgate?

RaggedMan · Post by **RaggedMan** » Tue Feb 24, 2015 2:45 pm

It's not uncommon for someone to have involuntary convulsions after suffering a head trauma. It doesn't matter if he's had bad wrecks before without having that symptom, every event is different.

A coworker of mine tripped over one his kids toys at home over the weekend and hit his head against the wall. He'd had minor concussions in the past plating sports as a kid and figured he'd probably had one then too but he just stayed calm and had his wife keep an eye him for the next couple of days and was OK.

The following Wednesday he collapsed at work and was having seizures. He came around after a couple of minutes and was wondering way he was on the floor and everyone was standing around him.

The brain is a tricky thing and sometimes a less violent event can cause more problems than you'd think.

Razoola · Post by **Razoola** » Tue Feb 24, 2015 2:47 pm

chican wrote:
Covalent wrote:Do we have a "-gate" name for this yet?
Windgate?

Its got to be Windy-Gate for sure if macca stick to their guns.

FinsFan · Post by **FinsFan** » Tue Feb 24, 2015 2:50 pm

Razoola wrote:
chican wrote:
Covalent wrote:Do we have a "-gate" name for this yet?
Windgate?
Its got to be Windy-Gate for sure if macca stick to their guns.

I was thinking "Gust-gate". What ever it is though the whole thing has a strange vibe to it.

Covalent · Post by **Covalent** » Tue Feb 24, 2015 3:34 pm

FinsFan wrote:
Razoola wrote:
chican wrote:
Covalent wrote:Do we have a "-gate" name for this yet?
Windgate?
Its got to be Windy-Gate for sure if macca stick to their guns.
I was thinking "Gust-gate". What ever it is though the whole thing has a strange vibe to it.

Sedate-gate has a nice flow to it.

Battle Far · Post by **Battle Far** » Tue Feb 24, 2015 4:02 pm

Beschy wrote:
Covalent wrote:Do we have a "-gate" name for this yet?
Crash-gate? Oh wait....

TinFoilHatGate?

Battle Far · Post by **Battle Far** » Tue Feb 24, 2015 4:04 pm

Covalent wrote:
FinsFan wrote:
Razoola wrote:
chican wrote:
Covalent wrote:Do we have a "-gate" name for this yet?
Windgate?
Its got to be Windy-Gate for sure if macca stick to their guns.
I was thinking "Gust-gate". What ever it is though the whole thing has a strange vibe to it.
Sedate-gate has a nice flow to it.

How about "Braking Wind Gate"?

egnat69 · Post by **egnat69** » Tue Feb 24, 2015 4:13 pm

Lt. Drebin wrote:
Need4Naiim wrote:So; what made Alonso to lose full concious state of driving before the crash?

I don't think "gusty" wind is capable of doing that.
I reckon, if the wind was THAT strong, Vettel would be surely said something about it. Else, he would not call the accident strange. If I am not mistaken, he was close enough to him to feel the blow of the wind himself - if the wind was a cause indeed.

there are two things to consider... alonso actually was on a quicker lap... at least not one that he was supposed to be slowing down... gusty wind surely has the ability to push the car a meter or two off the line... vettel only saw the car going slowly after alonso already had backed-off... he was on his out-lap, so alonso had been a good bit ahead already, far more than the pictures might make you believe... by any means enough for a small blast to affect him a lot more than vettel...

second thing: he was out something like 20 laps that day... tyres might have been old... formula cars can act very b*tchy on astroturf... the track would have been dusty around the astroturf, if he went on it with all 4 tyres and rejoined the track slightly sliding to any direction, with colder as normal conditions, possibly worn tyres and maybe a not so nicely setup mclaren ... things can go wrong quickly in such a situation... we can assume that the driveability of the honda PU isn't quite userfriendly yet so the car might not have responded the way he expected it to...

InBetween · Post by **InBetween** » Tue Feb 24, 2015 4:20 pm

egnat69 wrote:... alonso actually was on a quicker lap... at least not one that he was supposed to be slowing down... gusty wind surely has the ability to push the car a meter or two off the line... vettel only saw the car going slowly after alonso already had backed-off... he was on his out-lap, so alonso had been a good bit ahead already, far more than the pictures might make you believe... by any means enough for a small blast to affect him a lot more than vettel...

The linked video of the start of the lap in which he crashed shows clearly that FA was not going slow. I was there, at turn 1 and I taped the whole thing up to turn 3 entry and I can tell you he was going darn fast.

Also, Vettel was not that close to Alonso, he had just done his out lap and had gone out to the escape area to get out of his way, so by the time he turned into turn 3 at a speed similar to FA's he was decently far away. You can clearly see that in the video too.

moby · Post by **moby** » Tue Feb 24, 2015 5:58 pm

Covalent wrote:
FinsFan wrote:
Razoola wrote:
chican wrote:
Covalent wrote:Do we have a "-gate" name for this yet?
Windgate?
Its got to be Windy-Gate for sure if macca stick to their guns.
I was thinking "Gust-gate". What ever it is though the whole thing has a strange vibe to it.
Sedate-gate has a nice flow to it.

Slam'd gate?

Alex53 · Post by **Alex53** » Tue Feb 24, 2015 6:03 pm

Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Alex53 wrote:I can't volunteer any theories with any degree of knowledge, but it does make me wonder why McLaren's explanation doesn't quite match what the 2 different people who were there saw, the photographer and Vettel.
The human memory is notoriously unreliable.

Agreed. But when two different, independent witnesses agree something was amiss before the crash, as I said, you have to wonder.

JohnnyGuitar · Post by **JohnnyGuitar** » Tue Feb 24, 2015 6:42 pm

Lt. Drebin wrote:None of the speculation I read over here included UFO's, mafia, and so on. I have seen quite plausible technical discussion. True, there could be only one cause, but let's not cry "conspiracy theory" just because we are indeed kept in dark with a few contradicting statements of the parties involved.

Conspiracy theories don't have to involve UFOs or the mafia. They just have to accuse the official version of events to be untrue or deliberately withholding information. Plenty of posts are in that territory.

mds · Post by **mds** » Tue Feb 24, 2015 8:01 pm

JohnnyGuitar wrote:
Lt. Drebin wrote:None of the speculation I read over here included UFO's, mafia, and so on. I have seen quite plausible technical discussion. True, there could be only one cause, but let's not cry "conspiracy theory" just because we are indeed kept in dark with a few contradicting statements of the parties involved.
Conspiracy theories don't have to involve UFOs or the mafia. They just have to accuse the official version of events to be untrue or deliberately withholding information. Plenty of posts are in that territory.

You're mixing up conspiring with not telling the truth.
It's not because some here believe McLaren isn't being truthful that they believe in conspiracies. Two entirely different things.

TheOtherGuy · Post by **TheOtherGuy** » Tue Feb 24, 2015 8:12 pm

JohnnyGuitar wrote:
Lt. Drebin wrote:None of the speculation I read over here included UFO's, mafia, and so on. I have seen quite plausible technical discussion. True, there could be only one cause, but let's not cry "conspiracy theory" just because we are indeed kept in dark with a few contradicting statements of the parties involved.
Conspiracy theories don't have to involve UFOs or the mafia. They just have to accuse the official version of events to be untrue or deliberately withholding information. Plenty of posts are in that territory.

Nothing wrong with that though and people shouldn't just be throwing "conspiracy theorist" around as insult when they don't agree with someone's thoughts.

Laura23 · Post by **Laura23** » Tue Feb 24, 2015 8:36 pm

What is we've all got this wrong and wind did cause the crash. Just not geographical wind. What if Alonso just farted at the wrong moment, some said he had a dicky tummy, and that caused him to lose control of the car?

Some fart.

I am of course joking.

FringeUK · Post by **FringeUK** » Tue Feb 24, 2015 9:53 pm

Beschy wrote:
TheOtherGuy wrote:
Beschy wrote:
Razoola wrote: I'm not a doctor but can anyone tell me what sedatives would require you to remain in hospital after they are administered? And what situation would lead to medics at the scene to administer those sedatives in the first place?
Have McLaren said they sedated him? I don't recall reading that. If that is the case they would likely have used Ketamine or Midazolam and Fentanyl.
Yeah, it's been confirmed that he was sedated.

I can't imagine that FA would have been agitated enough to require sedation if it was just a (relatively) low speed accident. He's been around motorsport a long time and has undoubtedly had bigger crashes than that so it would be a little strange for him to suddenly have issues.

I'm presuming that sedation can be used as a treatment for concussions/mild brain injuries and that's why it was administered to him, as opposed to him being in such a state that he needed it to calm him down.
Yes, the above sedation drugs are for neuro protection (i.e. preventing seizure, reducing ICP, etc). Still seems strange to me that they'd go down this route for what is being described as a fairly minor shunt. Massa's shunt at Canada last year seemed bigger and as far as I'm aware he underwent no sedation / hospital stay.

Without us knowing too many details, my guess would be that he had more of a side impact g-shock than normal, perhaps even hitting his head/helmet quite hard on the cockpit sides. I'm presuming (perhaps wrongly) that there is perhaps less natural brain side impact protection than forward? Hence, the extra medical precautions, sedation, etc?
Having said that, I'm not really a fan of speculation and just hope that a) he is ok and b) we get told the full facts in due course.

RaggedMan · Post by **RaggedMan** » Tue Feb 24, 2015 11:10 pm

FringeUK wrote:
Beschy wrote:
TheOtherGuy wrote:
Beschy wrote:
Razoola wrote: I'm not a doctor but can anyone tell me what sedatives would require you to remain in hospital after they are administered? And what situation would lead to medics at the scene to administer those sedatives in the first place?
Have McLaren said they sedated him? I don't recall reading that. If that is the case they would likely have used Ketamine or Midazolam and Fentanyl.
Yeah, it's been confirmed that he was sedated.

I can't imagine that FA would have been agitated enough to require sedation if it was just a (relatively) low speed accident. He's been around motorsport a long time and has undoubtedly had bigger crashes than that so it would be a little strange for him to suddenly have issues.

I'm presuming that sedation can be used as a treatment for concussions/mild brain injuries and that's why it was administered to him, as opposed to him being in such a state that he needed it to calm him down.
Yes, the above sedation drugs are for neuro protection (i.e. preventing seizure, reducing ICP, etc). Still seems strange to me that they'd go down this route for what is being described as a fairly minor shunt. Massa's shunt at Canada last year seemed bigger and as far as I'm aware he underwent no sedation / hospital stay.
Without us knowing too many details, my guess would be that he had more of a side impact g-shock than normal, perhaps even hitting his head/helmet quite hard on the cockpit sides. I'm presuming (perhaps wrongly) that there is perhaps less natural brain side impact protection than forward? Hence, the extra medical precautions, sedation, etc?
Having said that, I'm not really a fan of speculation and just hope that a) he is ok and b) we get told the full facts in due course.

The collar around the cockpit where the drivers head is, is made from an energy absorbing material and ideally the HANS device shouldn't let the drivers head get that far.

However your head doesn't have to hit something to cause a concussion. All it requires is for the head to stop moving quickly enough for the brain to hit the inside of the skull.

bourbon19 · Post by **bourbon19** » Wed Feb 25, 2015 6:05 am

If this site is correct, he is set to stay in the hospital a 3rd night.

http://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/alons ... ird-night/

mds · Post by **mds** » Wed Feb 25, 2015 7:13 am

bourbon19 wrote:If this site is correct, he is set to stay in the hospital a 3rd night.

http://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/alons ... ird-night/

Actually, if the site is correct (which it probably is given no news has emerged of him being discharged from the hospital) he has already staid that third night

A2jdl · Post by **A2jdl** » Wed Feb 25, 2015 7:54 am

mds wrote:
bourbon19 wrote:If this site is correct, he is set to stay in the hospital a 3rd night.

http://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/alons ... ird-night/
Actually, if the site is correct (which it probably is given no news has emerged of him being discharged from the hospital) he has already staid that third night

I wonder if by staying in hospital longer than necessary he's able to get the observation and checks necessary to be given the all clear (or a no ) for this test ?

PzR Slim · Post by **PzR Slim** » Wed Feb 25, 2015 8:12 am

A2jdl wrote:
mds wrote:
bourbon19 wrote:If this site is correct, he is set to stay in the hospital a 3rd night.

http://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/alons ... ird-night/
Actually, if the site is correct (which it probably is given no news has emerged of him being discharged from the hospital) he has already staid that third night
I wonder if by staying in hospital longer than necessary he's able to get the observation and checks necessary to be given the all clear (or a no ) for this test ?

I really can't see it. If he is being kept in hospital it can only be because there is a concern for his health. He must be showing some symptoms that make them concerned. The first part of the concussion protocol is to show no symptoms of the concussion for a minimum period of time before being allowed to compete again, or more correctly, that's how it is in rugby but can imagine it will be similar for any activity where there is a risk of head trauma. I don't expect to see him at Barcelona this weekend.

A2jdl · Post by **A2jdl** » Wed Feb 25, 2015 8:22 am

PzR Slim wrote:
A2jdl wrote:
mds wrote:
bourbon19 wrote:If this site is correct, he is set to stay in the hospital a 3rd night.

http://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/alons ... ird-night/
Actually, if the site is correct (which it probably is given no news has emerged of him being discharged from the hospital) he has already staid that third night
I wonder if by staying in hospital longer than necessary he's able to get the observation and checks necessary to be given the all clear (or a no ) for this test ?
I really can't see it. If he is being kept in hospital it can only be because there is a concern for his health. He must be showing some symptoms that make them concerned. The first part of the concussion protocol is to show no symptoms of the concussion for a minimum period of time before being allowed to compete again, or more correctly, that's how it is in rugby but can imagine it will be similar for any activity where there is a risk of head trauma. I don't expect to see him at Barcelona this weekend.

Is that saying what I said ? He's able to be monitored to know if he does or does not show signs of concussion.

PzR Slim · Post by **PzR Slim** » Wed Feb 25, 2015 8:30 am

A2jdl wrote:
PzR Slim wrote:
A2jdl wrote:
mds wrote:
bourbon19 wrote:If this site is correct, he is set to stay in the hospital a 3rd night.

http://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/alons ... ird-night/
Actually, if the site is correct (which it probably is given no news has emerged of him being discharged from the hospital) he has already staid that third night
I wonder if by staying in hospital longer than necessary he's able to get the observation and checks necessary to be given the all clear (or a no ) for this test ?
I really can't see it. If he is being kept in hospital it can only be because there is a concern for his health. He must be showing some symptoms that make them concerned. The first part of the concussion protocol is to show no symptoms of the concussion for a minimum period of time before being allowed to compete again, or more correctly, that's how it is in rugby but can imagine it will be similar for any activity where there is a risk of head trauma. I don't expect to see him at Barcelona this weekend.
Is that saying what I said ? He's able to be monitored to know if he does or does not show signs of concussion.

No. People are not kept in hospital unnecessarily. They would only keep him in hospital if he was exhibiting symptoms that concern them. If he is showing no signs of ill health they wouldn't want to keep him in. And if he is still exhibiting symptoms now he has already failed the first part of the concussion protocol, which means he would not be allowed to drive.

Razoola · Post by **Razoola** » Wed Feb 25, 2015 9:01 am

He is going to have to go in front of the FIA doctor before he is given the all clear to race in Australia.

stevey · Post by **stevey** » Wed Feb 25, 2015 9:05 am

something doesn't feel right about this whole thing, my gut feeling is an important part of information is being left out.

maybe a secret bit of tech that causes ground effect and it obviously released causing the crash

or my gut feeling is he received an electric shock which then caused him to plough the car into the wall through intense muscle spasm.

owenmahamilton · Post by **owenmahamilton** » Wed Feb 25, 2015 9:13 am

Look at the top picture in this article:

http://www.grandprix247.com/2015/02/25/ ... suspected/

Azi · Post by **Azi** » Wed Feb 25, 2015 9:52 am

^ I think that's just a shadow from the camera mount.

Kynes · Post by **Kynes** » Wed Feb 25, 2015 9:55 am

owenmahamilton wrote:Look at the top picture in this article:

http://www.grandprix247.com/2015/02/25/ ... suspected/

PzR Slim · Post by **PzR Slim** » Wed Feb 25, 2015 10:19 am

owenmahamilton wrote:Look at the top picture in this article:

http://www.grandprix247.com/2015/02/25/ ... suspected/

Seems thats just the reflection of the dark underside of the camera winglet above.

nixxxon · Post by **nixxxon** » Wed Feb 25, 2015 10:24 am

Azi wrote:^ I think that's just a shadow from the camera mount.

Correct.
If you look at the entire photo sequence of the crash you'll see it well.
Poor website/poor article

stevey · Post by **stevey** » Wed Feb 25, 2015 10:24 am

what time did he crash?

egnat69 · Post by **egnat69** » Wed Feb 25, 2015 10:52 am

stevey wrote:what time did he crash?

half an hour before lunch-break or so...

smoothcrim · Post by **smoothcrim** » Wed Feb 25, 2015 11:05 am

Pretty sure the doctors arent covering up for Mclaren, if they say concussion we should believe them.They do have to abide by certain ethical standards, the Hippocratic oath and all that.

I just worry for Alonso that he doesn't get another concussion in the near future.

Razoola · Post by **Razoola** » Wed Feb 25, 2015 11:25 am

It seems now Macca will now be using the their own parts instead of a dadgy Honda seal on the MGU-K component in the upcoming tests.

mcdo · Post by **mcdo** » Wed Feb 25, 2015 11:33 am

egnat69 wrote:
stevey wrote:what time did he crash?
half an hour before lunch-break or so...

Are we going to work out where the sun was relative to Alonso's car and determine if the image above was really a shadow?

egnat69 · Post by **egnat69** » Wed Feb 25, 2015 11:36 am

mcdo wrote:
egnat69 wrote:
stevey wrote:what time did he crash?
half an hour before lunch-break or so...
Are we going to work out where the sun was relative to Alonso's car and determine if the image above was really a shadow?

that would be useless as it clearly is not a shadow but a reflection... the paintjob acts like a mirror and reflects the black camera/dummy DIRECTLY above... (like really about one inch above the reflection) ... you can see a similar effect on the upper edge of the airbox...

but i sense you were going to point that out, weren't you?

Lt. Drebin · Post by **Lt. Drebin** » Wed Feb 25, 2015 11:51 am

smoothcrim wrote:Pretty sure the doctors arent covering up for Mclaren, if they say concussion we should believe them.They do have to abide by certain ethical standards, the Hippocratic oath and all that.

I just worry for Alonso that he doesn't get another concussion in the near future.

While I don't think that doctors are indeed making things up, they are surely capable of covering things, and not telling how it is, like in the case of Schumacher.

smoothcrim · Post by **smoothcrim** » Wed Feb 25, 2015 11:58 am

Lt. Drebin wrote:
smoothcrim wrote:Pretty sure the doctors arent covering up for Mclaren, if they say concussion we should believe them.They do have to abide by certain ethical standards, the Hippocratic oath and all that.

I just worry for Alonso that he doesn't get another concussion in the near future.
While I don't think that doctors are indeed making things up, they are surely capable of covering things, and not telling how it is, like in the case of Schumacher.

Whats being covered up by the doctors with Schumacher? U mean they respect his privacy?

Gota worry about the mentality of some people, u just dont know when to call a spade a spade.