Alonso crash/missing Melbourne [MERGED]

Need4Naiim · Post by **Need4Naiim** » Mon Feb 23, 2015 1:46 pm

pokerman wrote:
Need4Naiim wrote:Alonso did not faint due to electricity, but made him to lose control and couldn't park the car properly with sudden surge. McLaren will continue with a safer new chassis for Barcelona tests.

I hope McLaren will not lose much time with new chassis.

I don't know why Merc pair had health problems suddenly which prevented them from doing proper testing this year. Maybe some concerns about new chassis made them play it safer. I guess it is not about making track time equal between drivers.
That's definitely tin foil hat time, Hamilton had flu, Rosberg had a trapped nerve.

I can choose where and whom to believe. Information is what you believe it is.

pokerman · Post by **pokerman** » Mon Feb 23, 2015 1:53 pm

TheOtherGuy wrote:
dizlexik wrote:So he is still in hospital.
http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/formula1/31585149
I definitely think there is more to this than just a simple "hit the wall, has concussion".

It's a Spanish hospital and i would think all things relating to Alonso they would want to cross all the "t's" and dot all the "i's".

pokerman · Post by **pokerman** » Mon Feb 23, 2015 1:55 pm

InBetween wrote:Something really wierd going on here. It doesn't make sense that McLaren should be hiding something, the car went through all the required tests, the crash doesn't seem to be a catastrophic failure, etc.

Could it be something related to FA's health? That could be a lot more serious and very problematic for all parties involved. Spell of diziness, some kind of seizure? That is frightening and could signify FA not being in any condition to pilot an F1 car in the near future....implications are huge and could explain the wierd way all this is being handled.

Crossing my fingers its nothing of the sort.

Yes it is worrying in that regard and lets just hope like Boullier said it was just a normal crash and the worse thing to Alonso's health is the concussion caused by the crash

PzR Slim · Post by **PzR Slim** » Mon Feb 23, 2015 1:56 pm

I do think there is some unknown factor in the mix here that Mclaren don't want made public. Whether that is an issue with the car or with Alonso himself I have no idea.

smoothcrim · Post by **smoothcrim** » Mon Feb 23, 2015 1:56 pm

PzR Slim wrote:

So looking at that picture again if his car hit the wall with a 15G force, as we have been told, at the steep angle you suggest would you not expect damage to the nose cone and for the front suspension to be ripped off the car? Neither is shown to the case in the pictures I have seen.

The nose cone wasn't the point of impact, why are you expecting damage there?

It was a side on impact and because of the shape of the corner and how the inside wall curves he has taken a big hit. Looks to me like he lost the rear at high speed and caught it to late and slammed the wall side on hard. Look how damaged the rear is in this picture.

pokerman · Post by **pokerman** » Mon Feb 23, 2015 1:57 pm

Need4Naiim wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Need4Naiim wrote:Alonso did not faint due to electricity, but made him to lose control and couldn't park the car properly with sudden surge. McLaren will continue with a safer new chassis for Barcelona tests.

I hope McLaren will not lose much time with new chassis.

I don't know why Merc pair had health problems suddenly which prevented them from doing proper testing this year. Maybe some concerns about new chassis made them play it safer. I guess it is not about making track time equal between drivers.
That's definitely tin foil hat time, Hamilton had flu, Rosberg had a trapped nerve.
I can choose where and whom to believe. Information is what you believe it is.

Best to leave the tin foil hat on then just in case

Laura23 · Post by **Laura23** » Mon Feb 23, 2015 1:59 pm

Need4Naiim wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Need4Naiim wrote:Alonso did not faint due to electricity, but made him to lose control and couldn't park the car properly with sudden surge. McLaren will continue with a safer new chassis for Barcelona tests.

I hope McLaren will not lose much time with new chassis.

I don't know why Merc pair had health problems suddenly which prevented them from doing proper testing this year. Maybe some concerns about new chassis made them play it safer. I guess it is not about making track time equal between drivers.
That's definitely tin foil hat time, Hamilton had flu, Rosberg had a trapped nerve.
I can choose where and whom to believe. Information is what you believe it is.

There were no ERS problems. The ERS safe light on the car was green, it was safe. Stop trying to thrust your conspiracy theories on people.

We know he crashed, we know he suffered a concussion injury. That's it. McLaren don't need a safer chassis. They just need a new one while they investigate the old one for cracks.

pokerman · Post by **pokerman** » Mon Feb 23, 2015 2:02 pm

smoothcrim wrote:
PzR Slim wrote:

So looking at that picture again if his car hit the wall with a 15G force, as we have been told, at the steep angle you suggest would you not expect damage to the nose cone and for the front suspension to be ripped off the car? Neither is shown to the case in the pictures I have seen.

The nose cone wasn't the point of impact, why are you expecting damage there?

It was a side on impact and because of the shape of the corner and how the inside wall curves he has taken a big hit. Looks to me like he lost the rear at high speed and caught it to late and slammed the wall side on hard. Look how damaged the rear is in this picture.

Yes it seems it was a side on impact rather than nose first

Lt. Drebin · Post by **Lt. Drebin** » Mon Feb 23, 2015 2:14 pm

Crash reconstructed:

Source: Twitter F1 Grid

Need4Naiim · Post by **Need4Naiim** » Mon Feb 23, 2015 2:23 pm

Laura23 wrote:
Need4Naiim wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Need4Naiim wrote:Alonso did not faint due to electricity, but made him to lose control and couldn't park the car properly with sudden surge. McLaren will continue with a safer new chassis for Barcelona tests.

I hope McLaren will not lose much time with new chassis.

I don't know why Merc pair had health problems suddenly which prevented them from doing proper testing this year. Maybe some concerns about new chassis made them play it safer. I guess it is not about making track time equal between drivers.
That's definitely tin foil hat time, Hamilton had flu, Rosberg had a trapped nerve.
I can choose where and whom to believe. Information is what you believe it is.
There were no ERS problems. The ERS safe light on the car was green, it was safe. Stop trying to thrust your conspiracy theories on people.

We know he crashed, we know he suffered a concussion injury. That's it. McLaren don't need a safer chassis. They just need a new one while they investigate the old one for cracks.

Did i blame you for something? or forced to? It is not time for argue.

I only hope Alonso will be 100% fit for the upcoming season.

Laura23 · Post by **Laura23** » Mon Feb 23, 2015 2:28 pm

Need4Naim, you are the one who started claiming completely wrongly that Alonso lost control because of an electrics issue. Don't pass the buck too other people.

Autosport have said it was snap oversteer. Which makes complete sense. Alonso over corrected a move and it went wrong. It's happened before in the past and it will happen again.

Can we stop with the silly theories please? Next up you'll be accusing Alonso of shooting Elvis and flying to the moon with Michael Jackson on the back of a giant carrot.

smoothcrim · Post by **smoothcrim** » Mon Feb 23, 2015 2:33 pm

Some people here would rather blame cosmic rays and magnetic fields instead of a bit of oversteer.

Get a grip.

Prema · Post by **Prema** » Mon Feb 23, 2015 2:38 pm

So then, it looks like the verdict has been passed down: Alonso overcorrected oversteer.

mcdo · Post by **mcdo** » Mon Feb 23, 2015 2:39 pm

smoothcrim wrote:Some people here would rather blame cosmic rays and magnetic fields instead of a bit of oversteer.

Get a grip.

pokerman · Post by **pokerman** » Mon Feb 23, 2015 2:40 pm

Laura23 wrote:Need4Naim, you are the one who started claiming completely wrongly that Alonso lost control because of an electrics issue. Don't pass the buck too other people.

Autosport have said it was snap oversteer. Which makes complete sense. Alonso over corrected a move and it went wrong. It's happened before in the past and it will happen again.

Can we stop with the silly theories please? Next up you'll be accusing Alonso of shooting Elvis and flying to the moon with Michael Jackson on the back of a giant carrot.

Snap oversteer, perhaps caused by the wind?

In that case it's good to see it rules out any health problems for Alonso

Laura23 · Post by **Laura23** » Mon Feb 23, 2015 2:43 pm

mcdo wrote:
smoothcrim wrote:Some people here would rather blame cosmic rays and magnetic fields instead of a bit of oversteer.

Get a grip.

Someone didn't think before they typed.

A2jdl · Post by **A2jdl** » Mon Feb 23, 2015 2:48 pm

pokerman wrote:
Laura23 wrote:Need4Naim, you are the one who started claiming completely wrongly that Alonso lost control because of an electrics issue. Don't pass the buck too other people.

Autosport have said it was snap oversteer. Which makes complete sense. Alonso over corrected a move and it went wrong. It's happened before in the past and it will happen again.

Can we stop with the silly theories please? Next up you'll be accusing Alonso of shooting Elvis and flying to the moon with Michael Jackson on the back of a giant carrot.
Snap oversteer, perhaps caused by the wind?

In that case it's good to see it rules out any health problems for Alonso

Other drivers claimed the same thing happened at that corner yesterday
I dont know why others cant understand it?

PzR Slim · Post by **PzR Slim** » Mon Feb 23, 2015 2:49 pm

A2jdl wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Laura23 wrote:Need4Naim, you are the one who started claiming completely wrongly that Alonso lost control because of an electrics issue. Don't pass the buck too other people.

Autosport have said it was snap oversteer. Which makes complete sense. Alonso over corrected a move and it went wrong. It's happened before in the past and it will happen again.

Can we stop with the silly theories please? Next up you'll be accusing Alonso of shooting Elvis and flying to the moon with Michael Jackson on the back of a giant carrot.
Snap oversteer, perhaps caused by the wind?

In that case it's good to see it rules out any health problems for Alonso
Other drivers claimed the same thing happened at that corner yesterday
I dont know why others cant understand it?

Vettels comments are one reason.

pokerman · Post by **pokerman** » Mon Feb 23, 2015 2:52 pm

PzR Slim wrote:
A2jdl wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Laura23 wrote:Need4Naim, you are the one who started claiming completely wrongly that Alonso lost control because of an electrics issue. Don't pass the buck too other people.

Autosport have said it was snap oversteer. Which makes complete sense. Alonso over corrected a move and it went wrong. It's happened before in the past and it will happen again.

Can we stop with the silly theories please? Next up you'll be accusing Alonso of shooting Elvis and flying to the moon with Michael Jackson on the back of a giant carrot.
Snap oversteer, perhaps caused by the wind?

In that case it's good to see it rules out any health problems for Alonso
Other drivers claimed the same thing happened at that corner yesterday
I dont know why others cant understand it?
Vettels comments are one reason.

Yes that's one thing that contradicts Alonso losing control of the Mclaren

A2jdl · Post by **A2jdl** » Mon Feb 23, 2015 2:55 pm

PzR Slim wrote:
A2jdl wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Laura23 wrote:Need4Naim, you are the one who started claiming completely wrongly that Alonso lost control because of an electrics issue. Don't pass the buck too other people.

Autosport have said it was snap oversteer. Which makes complete sense. Alonso over corrected a move and it went wrong. It's happened before in the past and it will happen again.

Can we stop with the silly theories please? Next up you'll be accusing Alonso of shooting Elvis and flying to the moon with Michael Jackson on the back of a giant carrot.
Snap oversteer, perhaps caused by the wind?

In that case it's good to see it rules out any health problems for Alonso
Other drivers claimed the same thing happened at that corner yesterday
I dont know why others cant understand it?
Vettels comments are one reason.

wouldnt snap oversteer be turning right then ?

nixxxon · Post by **nixxxon** » Mon Feb 23, 2015 2:55 pm

Sudden snap oversteer apparently dismissed by both Vetel and the photographer Jordi Vidal.

PzR Slim · Post by **PzR Slim** » Mon Feb 23, 2015 2:58 pm

A2jdl wrote:
PzR Slim wrote:
A2jdl wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Laura23 wrote:Need4Naim, you are the one who started claiming completely wrongly that Alonso lost control because of an electrics issue. Don't pass the buck too other people.

Autosport have said it was snap oversteer. Which makes complete sense. Alonso over corrected a move and it went wrong. It's happened before in the past and it will happen again.

Can we stop with the silly theories please? Next up you'll be accusing Alonso of shooting Elvis and flying to the moon with Michael Jackson on the back of a giant carrot.
Snap oversteer, perhaps caused by the wind?

In that case it's good to see it rules out any health problems for Alonso
Other drivers claimed the same thing happened at that corner yesterday
I dont know why others cant understand it?
Vettels comments are one reason.
wouldnt snap oversteer be turning right then ?

It would be moving right but not turning right. And I assume Vettel would know the difference between oversteer and normal steering input.

He also said it looked strange.

German Vettel said the crash was unusual.
"The speed was slow, maybe 150kph," he said. "Then he turned right into the wall. It looked strange."

Once again Vettel knows what oversteer looks like so why make the above comment if it was a simple case of not catching a bit of oversteer?

pokerman · Post by **pokerman** » Mon Feb 23, 2015 3:04 pm

PzR Slim wrote:
A2jdl wrote:
PzR Slim wrote:
A2jdl wrote:
pokerman wrote: Snap oversteer, perhaps caused by the wind?

In that case it's good to see it rules out any health problems for Alonso
Other drivers claimed the same thing happened at that corner yesterday
I dont know why others cant understand it?
Vettels comments are one reason.
wouldnt snap oversteer be turning right then ?
It would be moving right but not turning right. And I assume Vettel would know the difference between oversteer and normal steering input.

He also said it looked strange.

German Vettel said the crash was unusual.
"The speed was slow, maybe 150kph," he said. "Then he turned right into the wall. It looked strange."
Once again Vettel knows what oversteer looks like so why make the above comment if it was a simple case of not catching a bit of oversteer?

I guess snap oversteer may give the same impression of a driver turning right?

A2jdl · Post by **A2jdl** » Mon Feb 23, 2015 3:08 pm

Thumbs up from Fernando
https://twitter.com/lsgrcbd/status/5698 ... 92/photo/1

PzR Slim · Post by **PzR Slim** » Mon Feb 23, 2015 3:10 pm

pokerman wrote:I guess snap oversteer may give the same impression of a driver turning right?

I reckon most of us could tell the difference between the two never mind a driver of Vettels experience. It was his 'It looked strange' comment that has me thinking though. Oversteer should not look strange to an F1 driver. I'd like a better explanation of what he meant by 'strange'.

PzR Slim · Post by **PzR Slim** » Mon Feb 23, 2015 3:12 pm

A2jdl wrote:Thumbs up from Fernando
https://twitter.com/lsgrcbd/status/5698 ... 92/photo/1

Doesn't look any worse the wear for his crash. So good news. As others have said though, concussion a big headline in both rugby and the NFL at the moment. Will be interesting to see if he is deemed fit enough to take part next week.

A2jdl · Post by **A2jdl** » Mon Feb 23, 2015 3:13 pm

PzR Slim wrote:
A2jdl wrote:Thumbs up from Fernando
https://twitter.com/lsgrcbd/status/5698 ... 92/photo/1
Doesn't look any worse the wear for his crash. So good news. As others have said though, concussion a big headline in both rugby and the NFL at the moment. Will be interesting to see if he is deemed fit enough to take part next week.

He should be ok for the last two days of testing

ynot22 · Post by **ynot22** » Mon Feb 23, 2015 3:14 pm

Laura23 wrote:Need4Naim, you are the one who started claiming completely wrongly that Alonso lost control because of an electrics issue. Don't pass the buck too other people.

Autosport have said it was snap oversteer. Which makes complete sense. Alonso over corrected a move and it went wrong. It's happened before in the past and it will happen again.

Can we stop with the silly theories please? Next up you'll be accusing Alonso of shooting Elvis and flying to the moon with Michael Jackson on the back of a giant carrot.

OK Ive got one more tin hat theory (sorry Laura). Does anyone remember Kimis weird crash at Monza in 2007. He was setting up for a left hander and right at the breaking point his car suddenly turned right into the side rails. I always thought that was a maneuver brought on by asymetrical breaking. I have absolutely no proof of this and I know it is and was illegal but it wouldnt be the first time a team skirted the rules. I can also see Kimi turning the wrong dial or hitting the wrong button and using the break set up for a right hander instead of a left hander. Like I said I have no proof of this but if you look at the accident it is very strange and I seem to remember Ferrari and Kimi being very evasive as to an explanation. You can certainly see Kimi is steering the car in the right (correct) direction but the car still turns in the other direction.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=30b_1189344801

This leads me to wonder if something like this happened to Alonso. Yes its certainly possible and honestly probable that it was snap oversteer but Vettel saw the accident and I would think a driver can recognize snap oversteer when he sees it. Also its a new car and, yes even Alonso could have gotten the controls wrong for something like this.

Laura23 · Post by **Laura23** » Mon Feb 23, 2015 3:16 pm

A2jdl wrote:
PzR Slim wrote:
A2jdl wrote:Thumbs up from Fernando
https://twitter.com/lsgrcbd/status/5698 ... 92/photo/1
Doesn't look any worse the wear for his crash. So good news. As others have said though, concussion a big headline in both rugby and the NFL at the moment. Will be interesting to see if he is deemed fit enough to take part next week.
He should be ok for the last two days of testing

Not with a concussion he won't be. He'll need at least seven days out of the car, more likely 14 if he lost consciousness even briefly.

Prior to the Italian GP in 2003 Ralf Schumacher had a crash that caused him the same injury. He had to miss the race just under a week later. I can't see it being different for Alonso, they won't take the risk.

nixxxon · Post by **nixxxon** » Mon Feb 23, 2015 3:32 pm

Yeah, I suppose Magnussen will replace him for the rest of tests, until Australia.

JohnnyGuitar · Post by **JohnnyGuitar** » Mon Feb 23, 2015 3:40 pm

McLaren statement:

We are pleased to confirm that, having been involved in an on-track incident at the Circuit de Barcelona-Catalunya (Spain) on February 22nd, Fernando Alonso is making a solid recovery in hospital, and is chatting to family, friends and hospital staff.

From the scene of the incident he was driven to the circuit’s medical centre, where he was given first aid and, as per normal procedures, was sedated in preparation for an air-lift to hospital.

In hospital a thorough and complete analysis of his condition was performed, involving CT scans and MRI scans, all of which were completely normal.

In order to provide the privacy and tranquillity required to facilitate a peaceful recuperation, he is being kept in hospital for further observation, and to recover from the effects of the medication that successfully managed his routine sedation yesterday.

We intend to give him every opportunity to make a rapid and complete recovery, and will evaluate in due course whether or not he will participate in the next Barcelona test.

Over the past 24 hours, we have been carrying out a detailed analysis of the damage to Fernando’s car, and its associated telemetry data, in order fully to understand the cause, or causes, of his accident. Even at this early stage, we have been able to reach some firm conclusions.

His car ran wide at the entry to Turn Three – which is a fast uphill right-hander – allowing it to run onto the Astroturf that lines the outside of the track. A consequent loss of traction caused a degree of instability, spitting it back towards the inside of the circuit, where it regained traction and struck the wall side-on.

Our findings indicate that the accident was caused by the unpredictably gusty winds at that part of the circuit at that time, and which had affected other drivers similarly (eg, Carlos Sainz Jnr).

We can categorically state that there is no evidence that indicates that Fernando’s car suffered mechanical failure of any kind. We can also confirm that absolutely no loss of aerodynamic pressure was recorded, which fact indicates that the car did not suffer any aerodynamic loss, despite the fact that it was subjected to a significant level of g-force. Finally, we can also disclose that no electrical discharge or irregularity of any kind occurred in the car’s ERS system, either before, during or after the incident.

That last point refutes the erroneous rumours that have spread recently to the effect that Fernando was rendered unconscious by an electrical fault. That is simply not true. Our data clearly shows that he was downshifting while applying full brake pressure right up to the moment of the first impact – something that clearly would not have been possible had he been unconscious at the time.

Our data also confirms that Fernando’s car struck the inside concrete wall, first with its front-right wheel and then with its rear-right. It was a significant lateral impact, resulting in damage to the front upright and axle.

After the initial impact, the car slid down the wall for about 15 seconds before coming to a halt. All four wheels remained attached to the car, but no damage was sustained by the bodywork or crash structure between the front and rear wheels.

We wish Fernando a very speedy recovery. As and when we have further updates to share, we will of course do so.

Need4Naiim · Post by **Need4Naiim** » Mon Feb 23, 2015 3:45 pm

nixxxon wrote:Sudden snap oversteer apparently dismissed by both Vetel and the photographer Jordi Vidal.

True, i am curious what Alonso will say about that moment.

pubpokerplayer · Post by **pubpokerplayer** » Mon Feb 23, 2015 3:46 pm

Rule in football is 14 days away from competitive action. I imagine the FIA will want to ensure Fernando doesn't get back in the car for this session just in case. No point taking any risk!

Post by **Mod Aqua** » Mon Feb 23, 2015 3:48 pm

This is getting out of hand. Discuss the thread's topic without the wild speculation and irrelevant detail or the thread will have to be locked.

Note - this does not apply to everyone who has been posting of late. I'm sure it's obvious the posts I am referring to.

PzR Slim · Post by **PzR Slim** » Mon Feb 23, 2015 3:48 pm

Thats one tough car. Don't know what to make of Vettels quote now. If that's what happened I don't see anything particularly strange about it.

TheOtherGuy · Post by **TheOtherGuy** » Mon Feb 23, 2015 3:54 pm

I still am uneasy about the situation. We've already gone from him being awake and concious the entire time to it being confirmed by the team that he was sedated.

Alex53 · Post by **Alex53** » Mon Feb 23, 2015 4:27 pm

I can't volunteer any theories with any degree of knowledge, but it does make me wonder why McLaren's explanation doesn't quite match what the 2 different people who were there saw, the photographer and Vettel.

RunningMan · Post by **RunningMan** » Mon Feb 23, 2015 4:35 pm

There's also no way Alonso is testing the car next week. It's better to play it safe than sorry and I hope common sense prevails and he sits this one out

huggybear · Post by **huggybear** » Mon Feb 23, 2015 4:54 pm

Alex53 wrote:I can't volunteer any theories with any degree of knowledge, but it does make me wonder why McLaren's explanation doesn't quite match what the 2 different people who were there saw, the photographer and Vettel.

McLaren's statement appears to contradict itself. They say Alonso lost grip because of the wind at T3, but also say that he suffered no loss of aerodynamic pressure. If he was affected by the wind, that surely affects his aero grip?

A2jdl · Post by **A2jdl** » Mon Feb 23, 2015 4:56 pm

huggybear wrote:
Alex53 wrote:I can't volunteer any theories with any degree of knowledge, but it does make me wonder why McLaren's explanation doesn't quite match what the 2 different people who were there saw, the photographer and Vettel.
McLaren's statement appears to contradict itself. They say Alonso lost grip because of the wind at T3, but also say that he suffered no loss of aerodynamic pressure. If he was affected by the wind, that surely affects his aero grip?

No they mean no aero parts broke on the car to cause it