F1Oz wrote:And other races also need to be considered in their full context - I’m not saying Dan did better in all - but he certainly did better in some than the results suggest
While this statement might be true, it can be said about Verstappen aswell.
Re: Official Max Verstappen thread
Posted: Fri Nov 10, 2017 1:59 pm
by BMWSauber84
Fantaribo wrote:
F1Oz wrote:And other races also need to be considered in their full context - I’m not saying Dan did better in all - but he certainly did better in some than the results suggest
While this statement might be true, it can be said about Verstappen aswell.
This is at the stage of circular reasoning at the moment. Next season will reveal a lot. Maybe the next two races too if they both get clean runs.
Re: Official Max Verstappen thread
Posted: Fri Nov 10, 2017 10:29 pm
by Exediron
BMWSauber84 wrote:
Fantaribo wrote:
F1Oz wrote:And other races also need to be considered in their full context - I’m not saying Dan did better in all - but he certainly did better in some than the results suggest
While this statement might be true, it can be said about Verstappen aswell.
This is at the stage of circular reasoning at the moment. Next season will reveal a lot. Maybe the next two races too if they both get clean runs.
They won't; Ricciardo has a 10-place penalty, so there's no chance of an equal showing in Brazil already.
Re: Official Max Verstappen thread
Posted: Tue Sep 01, 2020 9:37 am
by Invade
The last post in this thread was from 2017? HOLY WHAT.
Max is fast. You guys should keep an eye on him because he's on course to being the most consistent high performer in F1 history. That's right. I'm waiting for the day when he has a weekend where he legitimately lacks pace. Will it ever happen? When was the last time it happened?
The last post in this thread was from 2017? HOLY WHAT.
Max is fast. You guys should keep an eye on him because he's on course to being the most consistent high performer in F1 history. That's right. I'm waiting for the day when he has a weekend where he legitimately lacks pace. Will it ever happen? When was the last time it happened?
I think Verstappen's time will come to dominate F1.
Re: Official Max Verstappen thread
Posted: Tue Sep 01, 2020 12:29 pm
by Option or Prime
Star Wars. OB1: That boy is our last hope.
Yoda: No there is another!
Re: Official Max Verstappen thread
Posted: Tue Sep 01, 2020 12:50 pm
by pc27b
understandable that max was mouthy, making some questionable on track moves, but really quick since he was so young. dude is growing on me though. understands where his team is up against merc and takes it in stride, while still pushing for the best result
Re: Official Max Verstappen thread
Posted: Tue Sep 01, 2020 1:30 pm
by F1Oz
I think it's clear max is a talent - but has had preferential treatment at team as well (not that it's been the main issue affecting his success I add)
Still - I'm less clear that max would perform in a midfield car - and not sure without preferential treatment he'd do as well as he has
Re: Official Max Verstappen thread
Posted: Wed Sep 02, 2020 11:53 am
by Lord Crc
In the words of Albon in the Belgian pre-show
Alex Albon: I'd say throughout my whole racing career I would run more front then anyone I ever was a teammate against. That includes someone like Charles in GP3, that includes even karting... until I came here (laughs)
Karun: He's a bit of a freak isn't he?
Alex Albon: Yeah he can deal with a lot of instability, it doesn't phase him at all.
Alex Albon: I think where Max is strong is there's not one area where he's weak. That's really it. You know when you go through a corner, and you do the perfect corner... you'll be one hundredth, two hundredths quicker than him through that corner...
I'm not that into the absolute ranking of drivers, but I do think F1 is more entertaining with Max than without Max and as such am glad he's around.
Re: Official Max Verstappen thread
Posted: Wed Sep 02, 2020 4:53 pm
by TheGiantHogweed
I think Verstappen's only weakness is sometimes rushing and trying to hard to recover from a grid penalty / bad start or anything else that means he is out of place on the grid. I would say at least half the time this has happened, he's had some contact.
In Italy both in 2017 and 2019, he gave himself a puncture within the first few laps. Both times he started quite low down and I feel he sometimes just tries a little too hard to recover quickly when he'd actually be better off being a little more cautions. In 2017, Massa took his line into the first corner a few laps in and Verstappen was just a bit too optimistic. The williams may have been pretty good that weekend, but he could have waited just a little longer to do it properly. In 2019, he just seemed to misjudge how much earlier you need to break when at the back of the grid and hit the car infront. He again should have been more cautious as it won't have been difficult to get them later.
A few other races that come to mind are Bahrain and Monaco 2018. Both of which he needed to recover from a low starting position, and he tried too hard and ended his races. I won't include too many from early 2018 as there were a few more and he's got better since then, but this impatience to recover cleanly sometimes still is there early on in the race. Belgium last year was possibly another example. He made a bad start which may not have been he fault, but he carried a little too much speed to try and brake late and make up for some of what he lost - which had negative consequences. I think there may be other examples too.
As I said, certainly not always the case. he had a terrible start in austria last year but kept his head cool and won. But still think half the time he's a bit too desperate to recover that he takes a few too many risks in the first few laps. But he hardly ever starts further back than is realistic now and hasn't really made these mistakes this year.
I don't think he really has any other weaknesses though.
The last post in this thread was from 2017? HOLY WHAT.
Max is fast. You guys should keep an eye on him because he's on course to being the most consistent high performer in F1 history. That's right. I'm waiting for the day when he has a weekend where he legitimately lacks pace. Will it ever happen? When was the last time it happened?
I think Verstappen's time will come to dominate F1.
I don’t think that anyone is going to dominate F1 after 2022. The sport will become too competitive when every team has an equal budget.
What I find a big shame is that we will never see a title fight between Hamilton and Verstappen. What a waste, but that’s something we have to accept with Mercedes dominance.
Alex Albon: I'd say throughout my whole racing career I would run more front then anyone I ever was a teammate against. That includes someone like Charles in GP3, that includes even karting... until I came here (laughs)
Karun: He's a bit of a freak isn't he?
Alex Albon: Yeah he can deal with a lot of instability, it doesn't phase him at all.
Alex Albon: I think where Max is strong is there's not one area where he's weak. That's really it. You know when you go through a corner, and you do the perfect corner... you'll be one hundredth, two hundredths quicker than him through that corner...
I'm not that into the absolute ranking of drivers, but I do think F1 is more entertaining with Max than without Max and as such am glad he's around.
The last post in this thread was from 2017? HOLY WHAT.
Max is fast. You guys should keep an eye on him because he's on course to being the most consistent high performer in F1 history. That's right. I'm waiting for the day when he has a weekend where he legitimately lacks pace. Will it ever happen? When was the last time it happened?
I think Verstappen's time will come to dominate F1.
I don’t think that anyone is going to dominate F1 after 2022. The sport will become too competitive when every team has an equal budget.
What I find a big shame is that we will never see a title fight between Hamilton and Verstappen. What a waste, but that’s something we have to accept with Mercedes dominance.
I don't really understand why the chances for dominance will end after 2022. Maybe there won't be huge streaks from one team, but if one team can be generally competitive, meaning legitimately Championship contending, and they have a driver like Verstappen, then I don't see why they can't be relatively dominant and why even couple of drivers could not co-dominate proceedings based on their superior talents in two such teams.
And I reckon we will see at least one Championship battle between Verstappen and Hamilton, and doubt Hamilton is retiring anytime soon.
The last post in this thread was from 2017? HOLY WHAT.
Max is fast. You guys should keep an eye on him because he's on course to being the most consistent high performer in F1 history. That's right. I'm waiting for the day when he has a weekend where he legitimately lacks pace. Will it ever happen? When was the last time it happened?
I think Verstappen's time will come to dominate F1.
I don’t think that anyone is going to dominate F1 after 2022. The sport will become too competitive when every team has an equal budget.
What I find a big shame is that we will never see a title fight between Hamilton and Verstappen. What a waste, but that’s something we have to accept with Mercedes dominance.
For no driver to dominate assumes drivers having equal abilities.
Re: Official Max Verstappen thread
Posted: Thu Sep 03, 2020 11:21 am
by mikeyg123
Just assumes one driver doesn't far exceed all the others in ability.
Just assumes one driver doesn't far exceed all the others in ability.
You don't have to exceed that much to qualify on pole and win the race, why shouldn't a driver be able ton win 50% of the races just on ability?
There are enough instances of drivers winning about 50% of races while having something close to an equal best car, so yeah. If there are legitimately say 4 teams who can regularly challenge for race wins then that would probably change things a bit and make seasons like Schumacher's 2000 or Hamilton's 2018 more difficult to accomplish. But yeah - I expect dominant driver performances to continue because the driver still makes a big difference. Verstappen is only gonna need something close to the best car to win way more than the 2-3 races a year he's currently winning. If he gets the best car while at Red Bull then, given how they run their team and his greater talent, he could produce numbers more dominant than Vettel.
Just assumes one driver doesn't far exceed all the others in ability.
You don't have to exceed that much to qualify on pole and win the race, why shouldn't a driver be able ton win 50% of the races just on ability?
Assuming that the 2nd and 3rd best driver on the grid have an equally competitive car to the best driver on the grid, it’s very unlikely that the best driver will win any more than 40% of the races
Hamilton won approximately 50% of the races from 2014-16 when his only competition was Rosberg. Now imagine if Alonso, Ricciardo, and Vettel also had equal cars to Hamilton during that timeframe. Logically he would win even less races.
And I reckon we will see at least one Championship battle between Verstappen and Hamilton, and doubt Hamilton is retiring anytime soon.
Doubt it.
Logic dictates that Hamilton and Mercedes will dominate 2020 and 2021. When he wins 8 world titles and 100 races, there will be nothing left for him to achieve anymore.
It would not surprise me to see Hamilton retire on top in 2021 without ever having a title fight with Verstappen.
And I reckon we will see at least one Championship battle between Verstappen and Hamilton, and doubt Hamilton is retiring anytime soon.
Doubt it.
Logic dictates that Hamilton and Mercedes will dominate 2020 and 2021. When he wins 8 world titles and 100 races, there will be nothing left for him to achieve anymore.
It would not surprise me to see Hamilton retire on top in 2021 without ever having a title fight with Verstappen.
If you had to guess, how competitive do you suspect Merc will be in 2022?
Just assumes one driver doesn't far exceed all the others in ability.
You don't have to exceed that much to qualify on pole and win the race, why shouldn't a driver be able ton win 50% of the races just on ability?
This is not observed in any equal series that I'm aware of, so I doubt it can happen. You need an outsized ability gap (think Marquez in MotoGP) to win a majority of races on ability alone. Otherwise, normal form variation and luck factors will prevent it from happening.
Just assumes one driver doesn't far exceed all the others in ability.
You don't have to exceed that much to qualify on pole and win the race, why shouldn't a driver be able ton win 50% of the races just on ability?
Assuming that the 2nd and 3rd best driver on the grid have an equally competitive car to the best driver on the grid, it’s very unlikely that the best driver will win any more than 40% of the races
Hamilton won approximately 50% of the races from 2014-16 when his only competition was Rosberg. Now imagine if Alonso, Ricciardo, and Vettel also had equal cars to Hamilton during that timeframe. Logically he would win even less races.
That list is like saying iPhone, Android and Blackberry have 99% of the smartphone market.
In most of the races that Rosberg won and both finished without incident, Hamilton was second. It was not as often the same for Rosberg the other way around.
And while Rosberg was certainly no Alonso, it's impossible to say how he'd stack against a hybrid era Vettel. The Rosberg rookie Vs Webber in 2006 tells us virtually nothing about where Rosberg was by 2014.
At present - if Max went to Mercedes Hamilton would beat him. But if Hamilton went to Red Bull Max would beat him too. They both have their team environments and machinery tailored for them.
They are the benchmark drivers in the sport and I would suggest that their performances tell you where the relative pace of their cars is at. An inexperienced and broken Albon who has lost his confidence and whose strategies of late have been "find out what the tyre we are thinking of switching Max to next feels like" tells us very little.
And I reckon we will see at least one Championship battle between Verstappen and Hamilton, and doubt Hamilton is retiring anytime soon.
Doubt it.
Logic dictates that Hamilton and Mercedes will dominate 2020 and 2021. When he wins 8 world titles and 100 races, there will be nothing left for him to achieve anymore.
It would not surprise me to see Hamilton retire on top in 2021 without ever having a title fight with Verstappen.
If you had to guess, how competitive do you suspect Merc will be in 2022?
Probably still the best car but likely not dominant.
I think that the earliest we can realistically hope for a title fight between Lewis and Max is 2022. The problem is that I don’t think Lewis will stay beyond 2021.
There is little to gain by him staying after he’s broken every record.
I think that the earliest we can realistically hope for a title fight between Lewis and Max is 2022. The problem is that I don’t think Lewis will stay beyond 2021.
There is little to gain by him staying after he’s broken every record.
Considering how critical he was of Rosberg effectively running away from defending his title, it would be quite hypocritical of him to retire immediately before the first expected challenge to his title run in years. I think he won't be done quite that quickly.
I think that the earliest we can realistically hope for a title fight between Lewis and Max is 2022. The problem is that I don’t think Lewis will stay beyond 2021.
There is little to gain by him staying after he’s broken every record.
Considering how critical he was of Rosberg effectively running away from defending his title, it would be quite hypocritical of him to retire immediately before the first expected challenge to his title run in years. I think he won't be done quite that quickly.
The thing is, Hamilton will be 36 by the end of next year which is a normal retirement age.
Hamilton has nothing to gain by staying another year. It’s all but guaranteed that he will break every record in 2021. If he retires at the end of 2021 he is guaranteed to retire on top (Mercedes is dominant and Bottas is not good enough). If he continues to race in 2022 and after, there’s a chance he will be dethroned.
Why risk being dethroned when you can retire on top?
I think that the earliest we can realistically hope for a title fight between Lewis and Max is 2022. The problem is that I don’t think Lewis will stay beyond 2021.
There is little to gain by him staying after he’s broken every record.
Considering how critical he was of Rosberg effectively running away from defending his title, it would be quite hypocritical of him to retire immediately before the first expected challenge to his title run in years. I think he won't be done quite that quickly.
The thing is, Hamilton will be 36 by the end of next year which is a normal retirement age.
Hamilton has nothing to gain by staying another year. It’s all but guaranteed that he will break every record in 2021. If he retires at the end of 2021 he is guaranteed to retire on top (Mercedes is dominant and Bottas is not good enough). If he continues to race in 2022 and after, there’s a chance he will be dethroned.
Why risk being dethroned when you can retire on top?
Are you speaking for Hamilton or projecting your own wish if you were in a similar situation? There are countless instances of legendary sportspersons not retiring on top, who keep competing as long as they have the platform, competing for the love of the game, of competition, even of the lifestyle.
The majority of all-time greats actually do not retire on top and choose not to do so. I just don't think the picture you're presenting aligns with the typical thinking of great champions. In fact, most are stubborn enough to believe they can attain their best levels again long after their peak or prime has ended.
Re: Official Max Verstappen thread
Posted: Thu Sep 03, 2020 9:56 pm
by KingVoid
Let’s see if you are right.
I for one don’t expect to ever see a real fight between Verstappen and Hamilton. F1 rarely works out like that.
I would love to be proven wrong but after 8 years of Mercedes winning everything (yes I already count 2021) has turned me into a huge pessimist.
Re: Official Max Verstappen thread
Posted: Thu Sep 03, 2020 9:56 pm
by Invade
I'll bring this over to the Hamilton thread given that this is the Verstappen thread.
Edit: Ah seems you've got your reply in and that neatly wraps it up and brings it back to Max.
Just assumes one driver doesn't far exceed all the others in ability.
You don't have to exceed that much to qualify on pole and win the race, why shouldn't a driver be able ton win 50% of the races just on ability?
Assuming that the 2nd and 3rd best driver on the grid have an equally competitive car to the best driver on the grid, it’s very unlikely that the best driver will win any more than 40% of the races
Hamilton won approximately 50% of the races from 2014-16 when his only competition was Rosberg. Now imagine if Alonso, Ricciardo, and Vettel also had equal cars to Hamilton during that timeframe. Logically he would win even less races.
I'm talking about future possibilities with different drivers, the Verstappen era.
Re: Official Max Verstappen thread
Posted: Thu Sep 03, 2020 10:58 pm
by Option or Prime
Being a multiple World Champion is not just about driving skill and being fast. Using Hamilton as an example its also about spotting the rising team as he did when leaving McLaren for Mercedes. The question might be that Verstappen has to leave Red Bull to do that and that the Honda P.U. might not win a World Championship. If Red Bull had a Mercedes PU then wouldn't he be winning more regularly?
Just assumes one driver doesn't far exceed all the others in ability.
You don't have to exceed that much to qualify on pole and win the race, why shouldn't a driver be able ton win 50% of the races just on ability?
This is not observed in any equal series that I'm aware of, so I doubt it can happen. You need an outsized ability gap (think Marquez in MotoGP) to win a majority of races on ability alone. Otherwise, normal form variation and luck factors will prevent it from happening.
F1 doesn't have rules presently to stop driver domination, how many seasons do you think Schumacher could have 50% wins with equal cars?
F1 doesn't have rules presently to stop driver domination, how many seasons do you think Schumacher could have 50% wins with equal cars?
Well intuitively it might seem unlikely if we imagine 20 truly equal cars, but we see in more overtly meritocratic sports that a player or a team can elevate above the field and win 50%+ of premier events. especially over a relatively weak field. There are a lot of variables in F1 racing in general though which could screw that up.
(Of course, no such scenario will ever be the case and the conditions moving forward will be far far more conducive for dominance than the imagining of some actual widespread parity.)
I'll bring this over to the Hamilton thread given that this is the Verstappen thread.
Edit: Ah seems you've got your reply in and that neatly wraps it up and brings it back to Max.
Yeah we'll see.
Back to Max.
Honest question: when Max won his third race at Mexico 2017, did you really think that by midway 2020 he would still be on single digit number of race wins?
F1 rarely works out the way you think it will. We never had a title fight between Senna and Schumacher because Senna died. We never had a real title fight between Hamilton and Alonso after 2007 because Alonso spent the rest of his career in underwhelming machinery.
Call me a pessimist if you like, but I think that Hamilton will retire before the rest of the teams catch up with Mercedes.
Re: Official Max Verstappen thread
Posted: Fri Sep 04, 2020 7:24 am
by mikeyg123
I don't think Hamilton will retire before 2022. Everything he has been saying for years implies he wants a battle.
I don't think Hamilton will retire before 2022. Everything he has been saying for years implies he wants a battle.
I’ll believe it when I see it
Hamilton can claim that he wants a real battle but to be perfectly honest, I think he’s happy with the status quo, and he’s very happy with Bottas as his teammate.
Schumacher and Vettel were happy when dominating and I don’t believe that Hamilton is any different.
I don't think Hamilton will retire before 2022. Everything he has been saying for years implies he wants a battle.
I’ll believe it when I see it
Hamilton can claim that he wants a real battle but to be perfectly honest, I think he’s happy with the status quo, and he’s very happy with Bottas as his teammate.
Schumacher and Vettel were happy when dominating and I don’t believe that Hamilton is any different.
Hamilton could be both happy with how things are and also want a battle with another top driver. Both things could be true.
I don't think Hamilton will retire before 2022. Everything he has been saying for years implies he wants a battle.
I’ll believe it when I see it
Hamilton can claim that he wants a real battle but to be perfectly honest, I think he’s happy with the status quo, and he’s very happy with Bottas as his teammate.
Schumacher and Vettel were happy when dominating and I don’t believe that Hamilton is any different.
So what you are saying is that Hamilton is only continuing because he is winning, is that right. If so then I can't agree, some racers just love to race its not all about winning. Take Schumacher, Vettel, Alonso and Kimi as examples still racing and loving it. Kimi loved beating Vettel's Ferrari in his Alfa Romeo at the weekend, they live for those moments thats why they keep racing even when there is little prospect of winning.
I don't think Hamilton will retire before 2022. Everything he has been saying for years implies he wants a battle.
I’ll believe it when I see it
Hamilton can claim that he wants a real battle but to be perfectly honest, I think he’s happy with the status quo, and he’s very happy with Bottas as his teammate.
Schumacher and Vettel were happy when dominating and I don’t believe that Hamilton is any different.
So what you are saying is that Hamilton is only continuing because he is winning, is that right. If so then I can't agree, some racers just love to race its not all about winning. Take Schumacher, Vettel, Alonso and Kimi as examples still racing and loving it. Kimi loved beating Vettel's Ferrari in his Alfa Romeo at the weekend, they live for those moments thats why they keep racing even when there is little prospect of winning.
Alonso is not actually a good day example. He quit in 2018 because there was zero prospect of winning. He drove in another series where there was a better chance of winning. Now he’s returning with Renault because there’s a chance in 2022.
Anyway, Hamilton doesn’t strike me as someone who wants to fight for lower positions. I think the moment he stops winning, he will retire.
I don't think Hamilton will retire before 2022. Everything he has been saying for years implies he wants a battle.
I’ll believe it when I see it
Hamilton can claim that he wants a real battle but to be perfectly honest, I think he’s happy with the status quo, and he’s very happy with Bottas as his teammate.
Schumacher and Vettel were happy when dominating and I don’t believe that Hamilton is any different.
Right now I see no sign of him quitting after this season or next. I think he relishes the idea of fighting it out with the best drivers. This isn't something new he's saying. He's said as much throughout his career. Whether or not we see a Verstappen/Hamilton championship fight on equal terms depends what cars they both have for 2022 but I think Hamilton will still be around. I could see him stopping after 2022 if Mercedes are nowhere but not before.
I think it's clear max is a talent - but has had preferential treatment at team as well (not that it's been the main issue affecting his success I add)
Still - I'm less clear that max would perform in a midfield car - and not sure without preferential treatment he'd do as well as he has
max is in a top team because he showed above average in the lower levels, same as every other driver who did the same. top drivers get some preferential treatment. its f1. i was mostly commenting on how he seems to have grown up some, and reports are he is much easier to talk with now, and engaging.
why so much hamilton talk in a verstappen thread, its like listening to the sky anouncers!
